Jan, in comments, wrote:
I've been doing intermittent fasting of 15-18hrs most days a week (for about month or so), but I can't seem to get past that 18hr mark. So 24-30 seems unimaginable!
Well, I was going to respond in comments but figured this could be of help to others who may not see it, so here goes.
My guess with regard to getting past the 18hr mark is that, as it turns out, fat burning during a fast -- though there's some prior -- really kicks in earnestly at around 18 hours and increases more and more up to about 30 hours. This is why I do 30 hour fasts -- in order to take maximum advantage of fat burn. At about 30 hours, your body begins to increasingly adapt, and fat burning tapers off to a steady state rather than increasing rate. What you seem to be indicating is that your body is really complaining about getting into a full-on fat burn. It's not used to it, and it's no surprise. Depending on your age, you've likely been feeding regularly and continuously for decades, day in and day out. Your body isn't even aware that it can go months without anything but water. In a sense, it's not much different than any other kind of addiction -- and we all have them. But don't be your body's fool -- or anyone's, for that matter. You know better, and it's just like getting off caffein, nicotine, alcohol, assorted drugs -- prescription or otherwise -- that your body has become comfortably accustomed to. Your body is going to put up a big fuss when denied.
If you want to get really technical, a 30 hour fast is really about a complete 24-hr fast, which is to say that the fast really begins about 6 hours after your last meal -- at about the point you would have your next meal -- 'cause you're hungry and ready to eat again. You can only be fed or fasted:
Think of it this way: everything begins with hunger. An animal — any animal, including the human kind — can only exist in two states with respect to food: fed or fasted. From the point we’re hungry to the point when we eat, we’re in a fasted state. From the point we eat until we’re hungry again, we’re in a fed state.
In any case, I don't advocate the daily fasts lots of people do because I consider it chronic fasting, not intermittent or flexible. Now, the fact that I do two per week in a rather programmed and organized way is also less than total intermittency -- but I'm doing it to lose fat. Another 15 pounds and I'll be around my goal of 10% BF and my fasting will become once weekly and will be totally intermittent, totally flexible, i.e., sometimes 24 hours, sometimes 36. ...Maybe even a 48 every now and then -- and perhaps a 3-4 day once or twice per year. I'm trying to model an evolutionary, primitive existence, as that is what programmed our genes.
All that said, here's how I've found to make a 30-36 hour fast as easy as I think it can be: have your last meal mid-afternoon, like around 2pm -- or maybe 3-4pm initially -- and go until dinner the next day. The reason is that if you have a good breakfast, then a good lunch at 2pm, it's not a big deal to go to 10 or 11 pm without food. You may be a bit hungry, but it ought not be gnawing and super unpleasant. Then, you go to bed, sleep like a baby, get up 6 or 7ish, your body has prepped you for fasting during sleep (hGH release), and you're already at about 18 hours. Then, just keep yourself busy until dinner around 7pm or later, depending on how long you wish to extend it. When you get really hungry, get really busy, or, depending on your personal circumstances, take a nap. If you can, get in a workout early afternoon, around the 22-24 hour mark. If you get your intensity up (lotsa weight, little to no rest between sets), it will kill your hunger for a few hours, though the first 5-10 minutes can be a bit daunting. What I've found, however, is that the hunger that returns in the later afternoon is of a very pleasant and warm kind. That signals that you've broken through and your body is now adapted to the fast pretty well and is easily releasing enough fat to keep your energy levels up and hunger at bay. Take a 3-5 minute dip in 50 degree water in your bathtub for an even more pleasant afternoon leading up to dinner. I guarantee that you will be amazed at how your body responds by kicking up the fat burning, thereby keeping you warm, cozy, and ferociously content. You will begin to gain insights into your long ancestral past and how wondrous it must have been to exist completely by one's wits. It's deeply contemplative at a point. That's the source of my "spirituality," if I've got any. And it's the real thing.
I don't claim this will be easy the first, second, or even third time; but just like anything else, you get good at it and it becomes a familiar path. Then, enjoy. And every once in a while, throw your body a curve and even extend the fast to breakfast the next day. It ain't gonna kill ya. We've got millions of years of evolutionary adaptation that says your body is built for survival in very sparse and inhospitable conditions. Fasting is the path to expressing those long dormant genes, and you will not believe how it will Free the Animal in you -- and by this I mean a languid, content, focussed Animal -- one completely free of rage, frustration, and other unhealthy toxins.
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Just a couple on topic thoughts:
I agree that daily 15 hour fasts is the wrong way to be going about this. Based on the medical studies I've seen (Dr. Eades shared them) weekly 24-36 hour fasts are the way to go.
When teaching your body how to handle IF, it's easier if the first couple times you stay on a strict ketogenic diet for a day or so before the fast. That way your body is already in fat-burning mode, and merely has to switch from dietary fat to body fat.
I should note that I don't need to do that any more. I can have quinoa, yam or potato right before a fast now and switch over seamlessly without discomfort, but it was helpful to do this in the beginning.
—– Off Topic:
Richard, I've been meaning to write to you, but I'll say it here. Your site is a treasure. Thank you so much for your contributions.
Kind regards,
Brock
Thanks for the kind words, Brock. While I get quite a lot of traffic here, now, I don't seem to get nearly as many comments as some other blogs, especially of the "great post" variety.
I suppose I should take that to mean that I come off as very self-assured and in no need of praise.
Another good, complete post Richard.
I second what Brock mentioned above – if I start off in ketosis I find it's pretty straightforward to complete a 30+ hour fast. In fact, if I get pretty busy with other things, it's hard to remember to eat thanks to the appetite-suppressive effect of ketogenic diets.
At the end of the fast I don't feel any sort of gnawing hunger that tells me I better eat NOW – I just start feeling more and more tired.
Ha! Richard, I had already started formulating a reply in my head before I read your second paragraph, and it's exactly that! I think it's a personality trait of most Libertarians to neither require nor inspire praise.
Richard,
Thanks for posting your comments on this. I've been on a (relatively, with some slips) ketogenic diet for about 5 months now. I've lost 10 pounds, which is decent for someone who weighed 164 and has probably 20-30 more pounds to lose. However, I haven't lost anything in the past couple of weeks.
I don't really exercise or fast. I've fasted once or twice and it wasn't terribly difficult but I guess I've just been lazy. So I've decided to do both (some light weight training) and see where it gets me. I'll keep you posted!
Richard,
Thanks for the insight. I have fasted in the past with some success. I always seemed to get really cold, however, at about 15 hours. Once I ate, I warmed up. I assumed this had something to do with metabolism/thermic effect of food but am not sure. Just wondered if you had experienced anything similar? Congrats on your success. I think Paleo and IF are certainly the way to go! I look forward to following along.
Brett
Brett:
Yep, I get a bit cold, sometimes. Intense exercise cures it, and, ironically enough, getting in a 50 degree cold bath for 3-5 minutes. Yea, it's tough, for for me, I begin warming up right away when I get out, dry off, and put on some warm clothes.
I almost do fasts, randomly. Sometimes I just land myself into a 20 hr fast without quite realizing it. I can push to 24 plus again without realizing it. I think the key to intermittency is randomness as Arthr Devany points out. Do it as if it comes natural.
I started dieting in September–mostly following Richard's blueprint–and have lost over 20 pounds so far. The fasting (twice a week) was difficult the first two times. After that, it got easier.
Now, more than half the time I fast, I feel very invigorated. Other times, it's more of a chore. After reading the comment by Brock above, I suspect that what I eat beforehand (ketogenic or not) likely plays a role in that.
Sometimes, I have started fasting after lunch, but it has been easier for me to start my fast after an evening meal.
I seem to do much better when I stay active, also.
My biggest complaint would have to be mental focus. So far, when I fast, I have difficulty concentrating–such as taking longer to write a paragraph or plan out something, or having trouble remembering things like numbers. Other modes of thought seem to be sharper, like visual awareness and reaction time. Bear in mind, that such self-assessment can be inaccurate, due to one's mood, for example. If I understand correctly, I'm working my system to release useful hormones, which will make me feel very good. Likewise, fasting can be stressful, like quitting smoking. It often makes me irritable.
Any particular suggestions on cognitive issues?
you know, the one thing I've heard is the general struggle to get beyond a 18 hr fast. Richard brought up the point about eating a lot of fat helps last through a fast. I think eating somewhat fattening meals helps last through fasts so much better. I can breeze through a 21 hour fast. Fat is king because in evolutionary terms in gave food taste and it gives sustenance. I heard someone say that when we have cravings, its either because we are really thirsty or we are craving fat. Elliot, what kind of foods are you eating? That might be the key.
Elliot:
As far as cognitive issues, by far and away the best thing I have found is to stay on your feet. Some months ago I dumped the standard desk and chairs at home and replaced with a long work bench. so I usually work (at home) standing. I have barstools for when I really want to sit, but when fasting it's always on my feet, and it's invigorating.
Thanks for the personalized reply! I had to keep up the ~15hr for a while before I could make it to 18hrs, so maybe it's just a matter of time and adjustment. I will say this for the daily fast, it really teaches you what is "real" hunger vs. just passing hunger pangs.
It sounds like I need to cut back on the fruit (I'm a terrible sugar addict, I admit it…), and fast less frequently. I like the every-weekday option, because I'm very much a routine driven person and that way I don't have to over-think things, I just do them automatically. I'll certainly try your early afternoon until next day dinner idea.
Again, thanks! I really like your blog.
Thanks, Jan. Please follow up and let us know how it goes.
J, I wrote up a description at http://mydiet180.blogspot.com/2008/12/on-menu.html
I suspect that eating a lot of fruit before fasting makes it harder.
On Monday, towards the end of my fast, I got a horrible sinus headache. I felt dehydrated, even though I drank lots of water and tea. I still haven't figured out how to avoid the cognitive issues.
In all honesty, Elliot, diet is pretty sound. There is a lot of focus on vegetables, and you do eat animal protein and fat. I guess the reason why I was shaky about fruit, is that it is a simple sugar and it causes a rapid rise of sugar in the bloodstream, and it just feeds more hunger and you don't satisfaction the way you would with fats. I don't think fruit should be out completely, but I only eat like 1 to 2 fruits a day on some days, others none at all. I think if one enjoys fruit that much, they should eat 3-4 servings spread out throughout the day…I am so far 27 hours into another fast, and this one seems pretty easy. I'll email Richard with more progress.
I'm about 20 hours into a fast right now. I've been following a ketogenic diet for the last couple of months, had a big falling off of the wagon last week (travel, etc.) so got back on the program Sunday. After being inspired by this site I decided to try a fast and see how it goes.
Went to bed last night around 10, woke up thinking it was morning…it was midnite. I typically have no sleep issues, so I can't help but think it's related to this. Feeling very warm, a little flu-ish. Perhaps this is the "induction flu" they speak of over at Atkins. Also was feeling like my heart was racing…a little tachycardia. This happens if I mix caffeine and alcohol, neither of which I had last night.
I took some magnesium before bed, which supposedly helps with sleep. Also, I've been taking 6000 IU of vitamin D for the last while. That, and two tablespoons of Carlson's fish oil each morning. My body is a chemistry lab!
Had a workout this morning, and had a surprising amount of energy. Looking forward to dinner this evening as well, but also really curious how this day is going to go. Feeling a little…well, "raw", for lack of a better word. My meetings today should be very interesting.
I'd suggest that you stay active and on your feet as much as possible.
In my fog, I also meant to say I've really been enjoying your blog. I only discovered it about a week ago and have been spending a lot of time reading it. I very much like your writing style and somewhat contrarian views.
My first 24hr fast completed. (Although it ended up being 24hr fast followed by 24hrs of limited food intake due to migraine nausea). Before I started, the day was spent decorating with family and eating PB&J, Christmas cookies and other decidedly non-primal items, but I made sure that the last thing I ate before starting the fast was straight protein. It was easier than I thought for most of it, I just made sure to stay busy. At roughly 20hrs I went to the gym and did some sprints on the escalator-machine and a light weight routine. The last four hours were pretty crazy, I had this "gotta eat, gotta eat, gotta eat" obsession thing going even though I was only slightly hungry, and I really struggled to keep myself distracted. I made it though! Tonight I rewarded myself with a nice t-bone and salad dinner.
Depending on your age, you've likely been feeding regularly and continuously for decades, day in and day out. Your body isn't even aware that it can go months without anything but water.
I discovered your blog yesterday, and I really like it! I have used IF successfully at various times in my life, and when I can actually stick to it and complete 1 – 2 fasts per week of 24 hours or more, I get GREAT results with fat loss, with mental clarity, with increased synchronicity in daily events, and even with spirituality. You really DO feel like a content, languid, assured, yet powerful animal when you connect with that primitive side of yourself, which we all have and which is much older and more basic in our genes than anything industrialized or modern. It feels really good to tap into that feeling. I have done meditation while on fasts, and I get these visions of myself looking brown and sexy and strong roaming across some plain with a spear in my hand and my hair held back with a piece of leather. HA! Exactly like your little logo actually. That’s pretty funny (and cool!) Except I’m a woman and that logo guy looks like, well, a guy!