Here's how to deal with me when we have a fundamental conflict, unlike some people. A comment from a vegetarian reader.
I see this blog all of the time and I love reading it. I never comment because, as interesting as I think it is... I am newly a vegetarian and am really enjoying this lifestyle choice.
Is it possible to practice this diet with the exclusion of meat?
I keep a foodie blog, tracking my progress as a vegetarian.
Well, I took a quick five or so at your blog and there's no mystery at all. You're having a ball. Quite obvious, and I salute and congratulate you on it. Even though our food choices are not the same, much of what you're doing is real food, you're doing it yourself, and you're doing it with imagination and gusto. Salut!
How could I possibly dis that?
Here's what I think: in spite of you adopting a diet that I would not undertake, I think you're heads & tails above most. I didn't see any fish, and I've had many acquaintances over the years who call themselves "vegetarian" but eat fish and/or shellfish. Could you consider that? It would make me immensely happy if you did.
That approach, if one does it, is an ideal modified-vegetarian approach in my view. The cool thing about fish is that it's as wide in variety as the sea -- really, a whole other world of nutrition. In terms of meat, for most of us, we have beef, pork, lamb, chicken & turkey. Toss is some buffalo, emu, or game meat from time to time. But in terms of fish, you have huge, huge variety in taste, nutritional composition, fat content, texture and other attributes. One can eat very fine and high nutrition with fish, vegetables, fruit and nuts. You will annihilate the grain, legume & sugar eaters in terms of nutrition. Instead of grains, rice, legumes, or sugar, just eat a bigger portion of fish, more veggies, more fruit (berries preferable), and/or nuts. Then laugh at your malnourished interlocutors.
I aim for optimal nutrition from food. So, I'm going to try to eat from as wide of a variety as practical; from meat, fish, natural fats, vegetables, fruits, and nuts / seeds.
So now let me get to some critiques of the vegetarian path.
1) You have to get a decent amount of protein or you'll lose weight, as many vegetarians do. This fools them into thinking they are on a good path, but what their body is doing is scavenging lean mass and bone in order to make up for malnutrition. They become skinny fat, i.e., low body weight but relatively high body fat percentage.
2) Since you're not going to get protein from natures most readily available (and tasty) sources, you're stuck with legumes in general, and soy in particular. I've blogged before about lectins, but soy is probably one of the worst (follow the links). In short, lectins are everywhere, but the ones found in legumes and grains are ones we haven't had exposure to long enough to adapt to. For some people, this means a peanut can kill them, and for others, wheat and other gluten containing "food" can melt their gut. So here's what you have to consider: Peanuts don't kill you, nor does wheat and other gluten heavy grains cause immediately noticeable harm. But what do you know of your generalized inflammation, inflammation that may lurk below the pain threshold? You might want to get a blood test for c-reactive protein.
3) This may not apply to you, evidence thereof being your blog, but more and more, vegetarians are straying from the whole foods path to processed foods. Let's just say that highly processed foods eaten chronically are death to all, from vegan to carnivore.
Now, in the interest of objectivity, allow me to highlight the fact that I don't think vegetarians and vegans are entirely deluded. Here's an example:
"Raw For 30 Days" - Vegan Cure for Diabetes
I think that's cool & awesome. But the same thing could have been accomplished with a Paleo diet, and what's more: it's sustainable.
Alright, I believe I've made my point, which is: I think a careful vegetarian diet that eschews processed foods and sugar entirely is probably better than the average American diet -- even one including meat. And that's because the average American diet includes a ton of wheat & sugar. Most simply: vegetarian diets have sometimes been shown to deliver net benefit simply because vegetarians are of an above-average health consciousness, and that's a bigger association to overall health than the specifics of your diet. Because of their fundamentals, they are going to eat closer to nature, closer to the Paleolithic, and that's going to have a net benefit on some scale.
As a last bit, I've often described the vegan diet as one of "long-extinct pea-brains and chimpanzees." As I've remarked on before, the two lines of hominids that were vegetarian (other than the bugs, worms and caterpillars they all consume) went extinct like a couple of million years ago. Still, if one is vegetarian or has even mildly been exposed to the rational, one has with little doubt been exposed to the "argument" that our digestive tracts are more like those of "vegetarians" than of carnivores.
Do you mean: like these vegetarians. (Note added later: Bea just saw this, said it freaked her out, and that I needed to emphasize that you take the time to watch it. It will blow you away.)
(HT: To the commenter on a previous post who clued me into that, and this.)
You might also like
- Paleo Diet Problems
- The Vegetarian Myth Revisited
- The Vegetarian Menace
- I Know What I’m Doing
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Modern Day Weston Price?
Please spread the word
I am a big fish guy as Richard already knows. All fish for sure do not taste the same. The one thing Richard that I wonder is this: doesn't fish have mercury, and while eating low mercury fish multiple times a week is fine, isnt it bad to eat fish every day?
reason why i ask, is that i was told to cut down my fish intake bc of mercury. I eat mostly fish, but enjoy bacon, beef, chicken as well.
What's up Animal?
J:
Mercury is one of those things I have yet to look into. I probably will someday, and in the meantime, I just try to vary intake between fish and other meats, and within fish, variety including variety of source.
I am so grateful for this abundance of information. I am also grateful to all of the patrons of this blog, who dropped by mine to leave helpful comments and further websites to explore.
I'm not sure if I'd consider eating fish. As I said earlier, vegetarianism is very new for me. I had been a vegetarian for about ten year prior to my first pregnancy. During pregnancy I had a "listen to my body" rule. And one of the first things my body wanted was a very rare steak. So, I ate a lot of meat.
Honestly, I think that my diet is probably too high in carbs. I am interested in learning more about the wheat/health relationship too. That said, I am also worried about eating too much meat and what that in and of itself means for my health.
At one point, I used to Atkins diet. What I found was that I could eat lots of food and not gain weight. I didn't necessarily lose any weight… but I was also eating lots of food. I felt really deprived… which is why I ate so much. In the long run, I felt that I was eating too much fat and became scared that I'd be risking the health of my heart (which seems to be in pretty good shape so far!)
All in all, I am just interested in being a healthy person.
Thanks for sparking my interest in this!!!!!
mamaholler, if you're interested in learning more about wheat, wholehealthsource.blogspot.com is a great place to start.
Cheers!
mamaholler:
Here's what I might just think about — not to try to convince you of anything. If you know your body told you to eat meat during pregnancy, do you think that might mean something? Let me put it this way: it took the high demands of pregnancy for your body to get through the signal/noise ratio to be sure you knew it needed specific nutrition.
So why stop now, which is to say, denying yourself what your body told you was optimal?
Regarding meat consumption — if you care to answer and I fully understand if you don't want to get into it — what are you thinking that it means for your health?
I suppose I'm a bit confused. Is it that you would really like to eat meat, have a taste for it, etc., but have a fear of it on some level?
Well, if you stick around — and I sincerely hop you do — I'll continue to post lots of things that should at least make you suspicious. And by that, I don't mean suspicious that natural fats are just OK, but that they are radically healthy and you're missing out.
At any rate, this was a good excahnge and I will count myself fortunate if I can, in the future, manage to have such meaningful exchanges with other vegetarians. At very least, you have convinced me that I need to tread lightly on this issue. Concern for optimal nutrition from food is the foundation, and I believe we all share that value.
I came across your blog this morning, and I've been coming back to read more and more during the day. This is all great information, and I'm so glad to have found it.
I was vegan for a while since last summer. It felt great during the first few months, but after a while I noticed my energy levels were dropping gradually, and my body didn't always seem up to being active, even though I wanted to be. Recently I started losing too much weight, so I decided to try eating eggs and dairy again. I had read about raw-paleo before, and recently I gained interest in learning about the hunter/gatherer life. I realized that if I had to live in an uncivilized environment I would not make it long if I was religiously vegan, and there would be times that I would have to kill animals to eat if I were to survive. My main moral deal with meat is not that "eating an animal is murder" but the meat industry turns the life of a living thing into a commodity, which just doesn't feel right to me.
Just a few weeks ago I started eating fish again, and I really enjoy it. I've been thinking of going paleo as well. I've eaten some raw fish the past few days, and it was great. Raw salmon is so much better than cooked, but I've also learned to check never-frozen raw salmon for tapeworm larvae) I did buy some grass-fed beef today, but I didn't eat much, because I couldn't help but feel a little guilty. I still need to get past that moral barrier, I mean, this was a little family farm, not a factory farm or feedlot finished beef. The cows seemed well, so I guess there's no real reason to feel guilty.
ehh, it's late, sorry if I'm rambling a bit, I guess I just got going and had more and more to say. The whole anthropological aspects of paleolithic people and even present hunter/gatherers is interesting to me, it seems like it's so basic, but it makes the so much more sense than the way we live our lives in civilization. I'd better not get to deep into this, this comment was going to be about food anyway, heh.
Anyway, I really like to read your stuff, there's a lot I'm learning from sources, and learning that it works for you is encouraging.
Liana:
I'm on the verge of leaving almost immediately for a week in Mexico, but I do want to get back to your comment. It's important and I really glad you took time to post it.
I will follow up.
I am a vegan, for many reasons. I’m not going to get into all the reasons but I will say I have a lot of food allergies! I did eat fish for a few years in hopes that it would help my anemia. It didn’t! Celiac disease is a major health issue for me as even on the diet, I still have some symptoms. Having been vegan most of my life, and having studied holistic health and nutrition, I have to disagree with you on a few points here! First of all, the protein issue. Why do so many people think it’s difficult to get protein on a vegetarian diet? I find it difficult to not get too much protein! Protein is amino acids, which is found in plants, nuts, seeds, legumes, fruit, and grains. Protein is in everything! It is quite easy to get enough protein on a vegetarian diet!
As far as intelligence goes, well as a baby I wasn’t able to eat any animal products, so I started live as a vegan and ate so throughout the crucial development stages of life and I have an IQ of 165. How’s that for a pea brain?
On a final note I would just like to say that I am really getting tired of this argument. We are all different! Some people, like myself, thrive quite well on a vegan diet, while others need some animal products to truly be healthy. It’s not a “black & white” issue…it’s all gray! If someone is doing well on a vegetarian diet and they are happy, you have no right to tell them they should eat an animal! Yes, fish are animals! And sea vegetables contain all the nutrients of the sea! The Paleo diet is mostly vegetarian with some meat! Eating animals or not is a personal, moral choice that each individual has to decide for themselves if it’s right for them! There is no one diet on this planet that is right for everybody!
Fair enough. Though I don’t buy the protein argument. Meat & fish have complete protein and not much in the plant world does.
At any rate, you might care to look into a recent book on vegetarianism by Lierre Keith, vegan for 20 years.
The Vegetarian Myth. I’ve reviewed it a few times and you can find those using the search function.
I do wish you well.
It’s a myth that people need the “complete protein” in meat. As long as you eat a varied diet, you’re bound to get all components of complete protein as a vegan.
Being vegan is only unhealthy when it’s done with a lack of knowledge. And with the wealth of knowledge out there, I assume that would be very difficult to do.
You might care to look into a documentary that I think every meat-eater should watch, to be aware of the industry they support.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6361872964130308142#
It’s called Earthlings, and will only take up about 95 minutes of your time.
I wish you well
There is more to protein ‘quality’ than having a full spectrum of essential amino acids, which can be achieved by mixing different plant-based sources. However, most plant sources of protein also contain protease inhibitors. Protease is the enzyme we use to breakdown proteins into their constituent amino acids and plants contain chemicals that inhibit this enzyme. So I still question whether a vegan has as good a protein intake as someone who eats animal sources.
And, no, cooking/sprouting does not totally inactivate/destroy these antinutrients!
Most paleos are well aware of the disaster of industrial farming. That’s why we support local organic farmers and pastured, grass-fed, humanely treated and slaughtered animals.
And perhaps you ought to become more aware of the grain, corn, soy industries you support. I recommend The Vegetarian Myth by Lierre Keith, a vegan for 20 years.
I’m not sure how it is exactly you feel comfortable placing the words “humanely” and “slaughtered” into one sentence, but regardless…
Perhaps you should read the book Eating Animals by Jonathon Safran Foer to learn the truth about the industry and suffering meat-buyers support.
The words: organic, pastured, grass-fed, humane, free-range… all marketing ploys. There is little to no regulation behind them. Any regulation imposed on the meat industry is basically created and enforced by itself. It means nothing, Take it from a marketing professional and a well-educated vegan.
And yes, I’ve read the only vegan-written book an omnivore typically recommends, but thank you for the recommendation, it is an interesting read.
I do focus on avoiding these industries as much as possible, not so much grain for corruption but for heath. Even if I were to buy any of those things, I wouldn’t be willfully causing harm to another living being – which, in my eyes, is a more compassionate choice.
oops! I forgot cage-free. Cage free means nothing as well
still just marketing and brainwashing 
I agree. Chicken should be free range on pasture. They are not vegetarians. They require insects, worms and other things for optimal health. Also, if pastured with ruminants, they serve a role of spreading manure (also picking and eating nutrients from the manure, building topsoil. All spelled out the The Vegetartian Myth.
> I’m not sure how it is exactly you feel comfortable placing the words “humanely” and “slaughtered” into one sentence
Simple: allegiance to reality and that words have meanings. As to Foer, not interested. Marketing ploys. False, and ignorantly so. One merely need to visit a local farm or meat operation. I have.
“I wouldn’t be willfully causing harm to another living being – which, in my eyes, is a more compassionate choice.”
Yea, really sounds like you read that book. This is simply ignorance. For anything to live, something else must die. It’s just reality.
But you’re welcome to your fantasies.
Richard,
I am vegetarian and only for the reasons that I do not wish to support the horrors of the main stream meat industry. However, it is my intent to start providing most of the food I eat for myself. I think that there are ways of humanly dispatching animals. Preferencially they should have lived a wild and free life (game and fish) and should be killed with as little trauma as possible. However living a free range life on a farm with organic natural food is good too in my mind. And so as soon as I can raise or hunt animals in the way that I believe is appropriate I shall do so. Do you personally choose only to buy local, organic free-range meat?
I prefer local, organic free-range. Marin Sun Farms is my current favorite, but I also buy from Prather Ranch, both local Bay Area.
But for times when I can’t get there, I usually keep a stock of essentials from La Cense, which is mail order. Otherwise, it’s over to Whole Foods and their grassfed section.
Every now and then I’ll have to resort to getting non-GF due to availability but when I do I try at least to get certified organic from WF and other upscale markets.
What do you make of the evidence supplied in “The China Study”, particularly the scientific evidence-based first 1/3 of the book that makes a strong case for a “low” protein diet being linked with with markedly lower rates of cancer?
I think Campbell is a fraud.
http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/China-Study.html
Pay particular attention to the section called “Does the data match up?”