Comments on: Losing Weight is Pretty Much Like Eating Lard http://freetheanimal.com/2009/04/losing-weight-is-pretty-much-like-eating-lard.html Expressing Our Primal Genes for Lean Health, Vitality and Attractiveness Sun, 14 Mar 2010 14:46:46 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Stephen B http://freetheanimal.com/2009/04/losing-weight-is-pretty-much-like-eating-lard.html#comment-14620 Stephen B Sat, 20 Feb 2010 16:26:38 +0000 http://localhost/animal/2009/04/losing-weight-is-pretty-much-like-eating-lard.html#comment-14620 Interesting that my previous best blood lipids were when I was losing the most weight (175 to 145 pounds for a BMI of 22). The take away revelation is that I need to put that same amount and type fat on my plate once I've reached my long term weight goals. Interesting that my previous best blood lipids were when I was losing the most weight (175 to 145 pounds for a BMI of 22). The take away revelation is that I need to put that same amount and type fat on my plate once I’ve reached my long term weight goals.

]]> By: Catherine http://freetheanimal.com/2009/04/losing-weight-is-pretty-much-like-eating-lard.html#comment-13740 Catherine Sun, 07 Feb 2010 00:48:04 +0000 http://localhost/animal/2009/04/losing-weight-is-pretty-much-like-eating-lard.html#comment-13740 I went and did some reading and yes, Richard, I think you're right, with one proviso - losing weight is like eating lard as long as the lard isn't consumed with any major quantity of carbs - 'cos the carbs stimulate insulin, which turns on glycogen synthesis and storage and turns off the liberation of fatty acids from adipose tissue. Glucagon is the handmaiden hormone to insulin, and when insulin decreases, glucagon increases along with adrenaline, signalling the liver to start processing fatty acids and some amino acids to be released into the bloodstream for energy. As far as I can tell the liver doesn't care where those fatty acids come from - they all go into the mix. I did find one site saying that as fats can't be transported in the blood on their own, they all get wrapped in a protein, and the fatty acids released from storage are wrapped in a different protein than the ones ingested in diet - but I don't think that makes any difference. All of this only holds in the absence of many carbs - if you were high carb and high fat (say 40-ish% of each) well the carb-inspired insulin signals to the body that it's in fat/energy storage mode and glycogen synthesis begins - utilising available fatty acids as well as glucose. We can only be in glucose synthesis (fat storage) mode or glucose breakdown (fat liberation) mode at any one point, and they are mutually opposing processes. The idea that our carb consumption was originally for the purposes of fat buildup during spring and summer, when fruits would be plentiful - preparing for the winter time when the food supply would lessen - seems to gel with this. If carbs filled us up easily, we wouldn't gorge on them enough to build up fat supply - so it's kind of built in to the situation that carbs aren't satisfying. It's easy to over-eat by 6 or 7 thousand calories of carbs in a day, but almost impossible to overeat by that much on only protein and fat. Similarly a diet of mainly fat and protein may mimic conditions when food is less abundant - during winter - and it would make no sense in those conditions that we be ravenous, or want to take more than our share. Imagine a tribe on limited cured meat resources for the winter having to deal with a Guts - he may not live very long! But to the liver I think it's all the same. Obviously if you really gorge on fats, you won't lose it as fast from your own resources - it won't be called up as quickly - but there's no metabolic discordance or conflict there. And because the body's primed for metabolising fats, the fat we do ingest in that mode is dealt with efficiently - no lag in satiety signals. That's my understanding at this point anyway. I went and did some reading and yes, Richard, I think you’re right, with one proviso – losing weight is like eating lard as long as the lard isn’t consumed with any major quantity of carbs – ‘cos the carbs stimulate insulin, which turns on glycogen synthesis and storage and turns off the liberation of fatty acids from adipose tissue. Glucagon is the handmaiden hormone to insulin, and when insulin decreases, glucagon increases along with adrenaline, signalling the liver to start processing fatty acids and some amino acids to be released into the bloodstream for energy. As far as I can tell the liver doesn’t care where those fatty acids come from – they all go into the mix. I did find one site saying that as fats can’t be transported in the blood on their own, they all get wrapped in a protein, and the fatty acids released from storage are wrapped in a different protein than the ones ingested in diet – but I don’t think that makes any difference. All of this only holds in the absence of many carbs – if you were high carb and high fat (say 40-ish% of each) well the carb-inspired insulin signals to the body that it’s in fat/energy storage mode and glycogen synthesis begins – utilising available fatty acids as well as glucose. We can only be in glucose synthesis (fat storage) mode or glucose breakdown (fat liberation) mode at any one point, and they are mutually opposing processes. The idea that our carb consumption was originally for the purposes of fat buildup during spring and summer, when fruits would be plentiful – preparing for the winter time when the food supply would lessen – seems to gel with this. If carbs filled us up easily, we wouldn’t gorge on them enough to build up fat supply – so it’s kind of built in to the situation that carbs aren’t satisfying. It’s easy to over-eat by 6 or 7 thousand calories of carbs in a day, but almost impossible to overeat by that much on only protein and fat. Similarly a diet of mainly fat and protein may mimic conditions when food is less abundant – during winter – and it would make no sense in those conditions that we be ravenous, or want to take more than our share. Imagine a tribe on limited cured meat resources for the winter having to deal with a Guts – he may not live very long! But to the liver I think it’s all the same. Obviously if you really gorge on fats, you won’t lose it as fast from your own resources – it won’t be called up as quickly – but there’s no metabolic discordance or conflict there. And because the body’s primed for metabolising fats, the fat we do ingest in that mode is dealt with efficiently – no lag in satiety signals. That’s my understanding at this point anyway.

]]> By: Joey http://freetheanimal.com/2009/04/losing-weight-is-pretty-much-like-eating-lard.html#comment-13709 Joey Sat, 06 Feb 2010 18:03:54 +0000 http://localhost/animal/2009/04/losing-weight-is-pretty-much-like-eating-lard.html#comment-13709 Fat's from food are NOT stored as fat. A rat study feeding a high fat diet, when dissected found their fat did not contain any of the fats they were feed. Fat stores are made from glucose NOT fat. Fats move thru the blood stream until they are used. It usually takes up to three days for the body to use up its fat sources. I have to replenish my omega 3's every 2 to 3 days or my skin drys up and gets itchy. Fat’s from food are NOT stored as fat. A rat study feeding a high fat diet, when dissected found their fat did not contain any of the fats they were feed. Fat stores are made from glucose NOT fat. Fats move thru the blood stream until they are used. It usually takes up to three days for the body to use up its fat sources. I have to replenish my omega 3’s every 2 to 3 days or my skin drys up and gets itchy.

]]> By: Nick http://freetheanimal.com/2009/04/losing-weight-is-pretty-much-like-eating-lard.html#comment-13676 Nick Fri, 05 Feb 2010 21:21:51 +0000 http://localhost/animal/2009/04/losing-weight-is-pretty-much-like-eating-lard.html#comment-13676 Thanks for the reply. I'm not disagreeing- just trying to understand, though I'll admit my intuition points me in a different direction. If I find anything of interest, I will post back here. Thanks for the great blog. Thanks for the reply.

I’m not disagreeing- just trying to understand, though I’ll admit my intuition points me in a different direction.

If I find anything of interest, I will post back here.

Thanks for the great blog.

]]> By: Richard Nikoley http://freetheanimal.com/2009/04/losing-weight-is-pretty-much-like-eating-lard.html#comment-13581 Richard Nikoley Thu, 04 Feb 2010 19:33:02 +0000 http://localhost/animal/2009/04/losing-weight-is-pretty-much-like-eating-lard.html#comment-13581 Nick: Tell you what, man. I'm satisfied that fat metabolized from body stores is virtually identical to fat ingested. First, it only makes sense. Second, I have heard plenty of things from reliable sources that it's the same and have never heard anything from anyone to suggest it would be materially different. You're welcome to disagree, but I don't have time to go digging around to try and prove myself wrong. But if you can come up with something solid through your own Googling that contradicts my assertions, I would be in your debt. Nick:

Tell you what, man. I’m satisfied that fat metabolized from body stores is virtually identical to fat ingested. First, it only makes sense. Second, I have heard plenty of things from reliable sources that it’s the same and have never heard anything from anyone to suggest it would be materially different.

You’re welcome to disagree, but I don’t have time to go digging around to try and prove myself wrong. But if you can come up with something solid through your own Googling that contradicts my assertions, I would be in your debt.

]]> By: Nick http://freetheanimal.com/2009/04/losing-weight-is-pretty-much-like-eating-lard.html#comment-13546 Nick Thu, 04 Feb 2010 04:00:24 +0000 http://localhost/animal/2009/04/losing-weight-is-pretty-much-like-eating-lard.html#comment-13546 The implication I read is that the fat has the same physiological impact whether injested from food or retrieved from fat stores. Is that true? That's what I want to understand better, and to me is the key consideration. For me, it's not quite tautological since the definition of "high fat diet" can vary and may differ based on whether it's ingested fat or fat retrieved from fat stores. How does one define a high fat diet? High fat in the food? High fat in the blood? Does it imply certain types of fat? The connotations of the statement are important to the meaning and value of it. My question is if the result is essentially the same physiological impact as eating the fat. If that's not the case, it's not equivalent, and the statement "all diets are high fat diets" only holds true based on certain definitions of high fat diets- i.e. that the energy comes from fat. But most people would mean to include the physiological and health impact of the fat. If fat was magically turned to energy with no side effects compared to ingest fat, then nobody would really care, and the statement is just word play, succeeding only by ignoring the connotations of the words and concepts at play. To me understanding this is the key to whether the statement has any bearing on how we look at dieting. And it does, then we can just refer to "high animal fat" diets, and the distinction and discussion go away. Maybe the focus of the post was the tautology. But I was left wondering if the concept has any meaning to consider for dieting practice. Sorry for the long winded response. Thanks, Nick The implication I read is that the fat has the same physiological impact whether injested from food or retrieved from fat stores. Is that true? That’s what I want to understand better, and to me is the key consideration.

For me, it’s not quite tautological since the definition of “high fat diet” can vary and may differ based on whether it’s ingested fat or fat retrieved from fat stores.

How does one define a high fat diet? High fat in the food? High fat in the blood? Does it imply certain types of fat?

The connotations of the statement are important to the meaning and value of it.

My question is if the result is essentially the same physiological impact as eating the fat. If that’s not the case, it’s not equivalent, and the statement “all diets are high fat diets” only holds true based on certain definitions of high fat diets- i.e. that the energy comes from fat. But most people would mean to include the physiological and health impact of the fat. If fat was magically turned to energy with no side effects compared to ingest fat, then nobody would really care, and the statement is just word play, succeeding only by ignoring the connotations of the words and concepts at play.

To me understanding this is the key to whether the statement has any bearing on how we look at dieting. And it does, then we can just refer to “high animal fat” diets, and the distinction and discussion go away.

Maybe the focus of the post was the tautology. But I was left wondering if the concept has any meaning to consider for dieting practice.

Sorry for the long winded response.

Thanks,
Nick

]]> By: Richard Nikoley http://freetheanimal.com/2009/04/losing-weight-is-pretty-much-like-eating-lard.html#comment-13526 Richard Nikoley Wed, 03 Feb 2010 22:42:09 +0000 http://localhost/animal/2009/04/losing-weight-is-pretty-much-like-eating-lard.html#comment-13526 "It’s fascinating- all diets are high fat diets. I’d love for conclusive evidence of that." Nick. That was the title. The body of the post makes clear i mean that all diets successful in losing fat are high fat diets. No evidence is needed. It's tautological. If you lose fat, you only lose it by metabolizing it, and thus, it's a high fat diet no matter what. “It’s fascinating- all diets are high fat diets. I’d love for conclusive evidence of that.”

Nick. That was the title. The body of the post makes clear i mean that all diets successful in losing fat are high fat diets. No evidence is needed. It’s tautological. If you lose fat, you only lose it by metabolizing it, and thus, it’s a high fat diet no matter what.

]]> By: Nick http://freetheanimal.com/2009/04/losing-weight-is-pretty-much-like-eating-lard.html#comment-13522 Nick Wed, 03 Feb 2010 21:59:19 +0000 http://localhost/animal/2009/04/losing-weight-is-pretty-much-like-eating-lard.html#comment-13522 It's fascinating- all diets are high fat diets. I'd love for conclusive evidence of that. It might also suggest that 2 lbs a week weight loss may be too high for heart health. Variations on blood chemistry markers from Paleo followers seem to make this a murkey area. However, a lot of low carb / high protein dieters seem to do better on triglycerides and other markers of blood chemistry health, so maybe it's not relevant. Or maybe the key is to test and work from that personal knowledge. Personally, I've recently upped the proteins and fat in my diet and cut calories by an extra 400 /day (to a 1000 per day deficit) and still feel less hunger then before. Four strips of bacon and an egg in the morning are working way better then the results I got with just an egg. I landed here following links on fat content in diets trying to refine my diet plan. It's working for me, but my wife had high triglycerides in the spring (normal now) and is concerned about fat content. I'm trying to get bacon on the shopping list, but it's currently a struggle. This may help, but I need to learn a bit more. Thanks! It’s fascinating- all diets are high fat diets. I’d love for conclusive evidence of that.

It might also suggest that 2 lbs a week weight loss may be too high for heart health. Variations on blood chemistry markers from Paleo followers seem to make this a murkey area.

However, a lot of low carb / high protein dieters seem to do better on triglycerides and other markers of blood chemistry health, so maybe it’s not relevant. Or maybe the key is to test and work from that personal knowledge.

Personally, I’ve recently upped the proteins and fat in my diet and cut calories by an extra 400 /day (to a 1000 per day deficit) and still feel less hunger then before. Four strips of bacon and an egg in the morning are working way better then the results I got with just an egg.

I landed here following links on fat content in diets trying to refine my diet plan.

It’s working for me, but my wife had high triglycerides in the spring (normal now) and is concerned about fat content. I’m trying to get bacon on the shopping list, but it’s currently a struggle. This may help, but I need to learn a bit more.

Thanks!

]]> By: Richard Nikoley http://freetheanimal.com/2009/04/losing-weight-is-pretty-much-like-eating-lard.html#comment-13512 Richard Nikoley Wed, 03 Feb 2010 20:08:38 +0000 http://localhost/animal/2009/04/losing-weight-is-pretty-much-like-eating-lard.html#comment-13512 I suppose it's possible, but both are still metabolized so I don't imagine any differences would be material and especially so in terms of the fat composition, i.e., released saturated animal fat (you being the animal) and ingested saturated animal fat from other animals. I suppose it’s possible, but both are still metabolized so I don’t imagine any differences would be material and especially so in terms of the fat composition, i.e., released saturated animal fat (you being the animal) and ingested saturated animal fat from other animals.

]]> By: Nick http://freetheanimal.com/2009/04/losing-weight-is-pretty-much-like-eating-lard.html#comment-13511 Nick Wed, 03 Feb 2010 20:01:41 +0000 http://localhost/animal/2009/04/losing-weight-is-pretty-much-like-eating-lard.html#comment-13511 There is a missing piece to this concept- are fats ingested versus fats retrieved from storage processed in the same manner in your body? I can easily imagine the mechanisms being quite different, including intermediate forms of conversion and transport. Howver, I'm no expert and have no clue. Does anyone have any insight into this? Love this blog. Excellent title. Thanks! There is a missing piece to this concept- are fats ingested versus fats retrieved from storage processed in the same manner in your body? I can easily imagine the mechanisms being quite different, including intermediate forms of conversion and transport.

Howver, I’m no expert and have no clue. Does anyone have any insight into this?

Love this blog. Excellent title.

Thanks!

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