You can find my introductory post to my ongoing Leangains experience right here.
This post is taking a different form from my original intention. I was going to post about my workout experience and how I see it as different from pre-Leangans days. And, eventually in the course of this series I’d shoot some interview questions at Martin, workout questions being among them.
But in discussing some of the goals I’d like to meet in a post like this with Martin it soon became clear that we ought to just partially do this in and interview format from the get-go, after a brief introduction summarizing my own experience. So that’s what we’ll do and, of course, Martin will be around to expand on his ideas and methods in comments. So let’s get to it.
PRE-LEANGAINS
As I blogged way back in the beginning, May 2007, I did have a sense that brief and intense was superior to the standard gym drudgery of 3-5 visits per week of an hour or more with significant time devoted to low-effort cardio. Instead, I went only twice per week, 30-minutes per session, did no cardio (I did a few sprints once or twice per week away from the gym), and focussed on 3 sets X 10 reps for as many as I could get in, i.e., little to no rest between sets or exercises. In addition, I normally did circuits of 2-3 exercises at a time, such that I could move from set to set with no rest, alternating between the exercises.
For the first few months, perhaps six, the two workouts were split between chest and arms one day, legs and back the next. Then, we simply went full body each time but employed different exercises. Eventually, we changed that to be more weights and machines oriented one day and more crossfit circuit styled stuff the next, though I don’t know much about what precisely constitutes crossfit. What I do know is that the weight day got me real pumped while the “crossfit” day got me plain exhausted. I’d call it a combination of bodyweight stuff, some weights, plyometrics, and so on with the result being that it was quasi aerobic, or cardio at the pace I performed it.
I did make significant progress. In roughly the three years I did this I went from 235 pounds to holding between 180-185 (I was 183/4 when I began Leangains). I don’t recall what weight I was lifting in the various moves at the outset but I do know that I gained significantly over the three years.
SIX MONTHS OF LEANGAINS WORKOUTS
Note: six months was the timeframe, but over the summer months I had time off for vacations and such so actual time was about 5 months of actual workouts.
From my perspective, there are four primary exercises in the Leangains method (at least in the program Martin designed for me according to my goals and abilities): Deadlift, Squat, Bench Press, and Weighted Chinups. In addition there are about 8-10 other exercises classified as assistance moves. This was a great perspective as it really focussed the goal. I had four exercises to focus on primarily and I didn’t really concern myself with gains in the others. They kinda come automatically. There’s an interesting push / pull dynamic with gains, and it’s never linear.
The other difference is that I went from two to three workouts per week. The primary reason for this was a sea change in the way I was doing things in a circuit fashion. Martin required that I drop the number of sets I was doing and, in addition, the number of reps. In exchange, I was to lift more weight and get some rest in-between sets and exercises. Attack every set with maximal effort was the name of the game.
So let’s summarize the results. I’ll provide individual gains for the aforementioned primary moves and will just group the assistance gains into one number and then give a combined total. These are gains over 20 weeks of actual exercise.
- Conventional Deadlift: 155 – 295 / 90% gain
- Back Squats: 185 – 215 / 16% gain
- Bench Press: 165 – 180 / 9% gain
- Weighted Chin Ups: 0 – 20 / 11% gain, using average bodyweight over the period to calculate
- 11 Assistance Exercises: 29% average gain
- Total Overall Gain Over 20 Weeks: 27%
As I said, I don’t recall where I began in terms of weight 3 1/2 years ago, but in that first three years before going to the Leangains approach I may have — just guessing — gained 50-100%, maybe more in a few things. But that’s over 3 years. This was over 20 weeks, 5 months of actual time in gym.
So call me impressed, and happy.
~~~
So at this point I’ll move into questions for Martin Berkhan.
Martin, you’ve seen my summary of my pre-Leangains time at the gym. What can you say about the methods I employed? Anything good and why? What’s bad, and why?
I didn’t see anything good about it and I don’t know where to start with the bad. A few observations in random order.
1. Set structure: I hate “3 x 10” or “4 x 8”, or similar absolute systems. What does that mean exactly? So you do 10 reps with your 14RM weight to get 3 sets of 10 reps with the same weight so that the third set can be completed? What if you can get 12 reps on the third? What’s the point of half-assing it with two easy sets which leaves you semi-fatigued so that you can never get one truly good set in? Huge waste of time and an inferior way to train.
2. Circuit-style workouts and “little to no rest” in between sets. Are you looking to improve your conditioning? Training for an endurance event? Because that’s not how you train for strength and muscle gains. Rest at least 3-5 minutes in between sets for strength. Studies shows that longer rest equals greater strength gains. Since muscle gains follow strength gains, you can draw your own conclusions from that.
3. Mixing conditioning/strength. In the best case you’ll get mediocre at both, in the worst case you’ll stagnate. Keep them separate. Either do a strength session or a conditioning session, and do them on different days.
4. Changing parameters from week to week, i.e. workouts are variable and not constant. This makes it impossible to track progress.
5. Did you even have a training log? Did you go for PRs on a regular basis like you should? Because that’s what you should’ve been doing.
Given my gains over the initial 20 weeks under your guidance, would you say those gains are typical, below, or better than what you see from the average client? And, how about considering gender and age (I’ll be 50 in January)?
I’d say they’re just what I expected given your level of compliance and commitment, which were good. You stick with a sound plan and the right diet and you get to reap the rewards which is what you did. You lost fat, gained muscle and increased your strength significantly.
I know you pay significant attention to goings on in the community. In the context of gym time, what do you see as the good and the bad? How about the really, really bad?
Well, I think I covered that under the first question. In the bodybuilding community you have the issue of people overcomplicating things and screwing around with the small stuff instead of focusing on the core movements, i.e. ten different curls and chest movements, worrying about the optimal pre-workout stack, etc. In the paleo community you have this notion of simplifying things but what I see is instead an overreliance on novelty and mixing things up too much. Workouts vary from week to week, includes some elements of conditioning and strength, etc. This is purely based on my observations and I’m obviously generalizing a good bit. This is an inferior way to train beyond the first sweet six months or so where you’ll get great results on just about any approach. Beyond that point I think you need a more structured approach and get your goals straight to make faster and better progress.
Can you briefly describe your reasons behind the four primary core exercises?
Those are the four money movements from which at least 80% of your gains will come from. I don’t necessarily choose those exact movements but I do choose a proper substitute depending on the client. I’ll talk briefly about each below.
Bench press: For chest and shoulders. Sometimes substituted for weighted dips or dumbbell presses. I prefer barbell over dumbbells since it allows smaller weight jumps for progression, i.e. going from 50 lbs dumbbells to 55 lbs dumbbells is a 10% increase in load, while going from a 135 lbs bench press to 140 lbs is a 4% increase in load. While I do include a set or two of the overhead press, I find that most people don’t need much direct shoulder work in the plans I make. Shoulders get a lot of indirect training via chins, deadlift and even squats to some degree.
Weighted chins: Depending on the relative strength of the client, it’s pulldowns, chins and then finally weighted chins. Extra loading starts with 5-10 lbs added when you can do 8 body weight chins since I believe it’s a movement that’s best trained heavy, in the 4-6 rep range. I always advocate chins, not pull-ups. Chins allows a greater ROM and people tend to cheat less when adding weight. Besides chins, close-grip chins is another favorite variety I use. Most people could build a great set of biceps focusing on weighted chins and close-grip chins only. I did.
Squats: Well, not much to say about this one. Best lower-body movement hands down. Front squats is another great alternative. Leg press is also fine. Some people simply aren’t built to squat and are better off focusing on leg presses instead. Most often tall guys with long legs.
Deadlift: Like squats, this is another no-brainer. Depending on your leverages, this will either be more of a back-lift or more of a lower-body lift. Either way, it needs a separate day; at least in the context I use it. Don’t squat and deadlift on the same day. In my experience, the deadlift is a lift that should be trained low volume, low frequency and high effort. Never more than once a week.
Why heavy, and why the allowance for lots of rest in-between sets and exercises?
Hard and heavy gives you the most return on your time investment. Make all your sets count and try to improve on them your next session. Being physically and mentally prepared is important, therefore the long rest periods. Besides, studies show longer rest periods equals greater strength gains. I should note that I use different setups depending on the goal of the client. For example, I’ve experimented with higher frequency training where sets were not taken to failure every session. However, that was in the context of gaining. On a diet, hard and heavy is the right way to go. Training volume should be low, effort high.
Are the workout programs you furnish clients mostly the same or are they different based on factors like goals, gender, age, ability?
No, they vary depending on the client; goals, available equipment, age, and so forth. However, I do have a few templates that I use over and over again. The one you used is one of the more common templates. Some people gained more strength on that one on their diet than they did on another one when bulking. It’s simple and effective.
Do you ever employ Olympic lifts (snatch, clean & jerk) for clients and if not, why?
No, never, unless they’re Olympic lifters or have a good deal of experience with the lifts. While productive, these lifts require skill and practice. Given that I do most of my work online, it would be irresponsible to include them in people’s templates. Most people can bench, squat and deadlift with good form, but they can’t snatch and clean.
Lots of my readers out there aren’t looking to get ripped but yet want a decent body composition and a good measure of strength. Supposing they’re not going to go all out for a Leangains program, what advice — or perhaps principles or rules of thumb — can you offer that will give them the biggest bang for their time & effort invested?
1. Track progress short-term and long-term. Use a training log to document every workout and compare your performance in between workouts. For long-term progress, use checkpoints. I talked about checkpoints here.
2. Don’t mix strength and conditioning. Keep them separate. Why? First of all, you can’t get a great strength session and a great conditioning session in the same workout. Second of all, there’s a very good reason to keep them separate if you look at what happens on a cellular level. In simple terms, conditioning activates a protein (AMPK) which blunts another protein (MTOR) that turns on muscle protein synthesis.
3. If your goal is fat loss, limit strength training to 3 days a week. 95% of the people reading this don’t need to spend more than 3 days a week tops in the gym to get to where they want, regardless if they just want to lose a few pounds or get ripped.
4. If you stagnate, be that in terms of fat loss or muscle gain, the first thing to fix is your diet, not your training or cardio routine. Count calories.
5. Start every workout with a core movement and pair them intelligently. Looking at Richard’s template, we did.
Monday: Deadlifts and weighted chins. Make sure you get 5 mins of rest in between deadlifts and chins.
Wednesday: Bench
Friday: Squats. Make sure you get a minimum of two days of rest in between deadlifts and squats, i.e. don’t do heavy deads on Wednesday and then heavy squats on Friday.
6. If you’re dragging yourself to the gym in order to do HIIT or burpees supersetted with hindu pushups, or whatever else is trendy right now, ask yourself if you’re really doing this for conditioning purposes or fat loss. I think if most people answered honestly it would be the latter. If you’re interested in gaining strength and muscle, while losing fat, keep in mind that strenuous cardio like HIIT and other high-impact cardio will make that a whole lot harder and less likely to happen. Focus your efforts on strength training and keep cardio light. Ditch the intervals and take a 45-60 min leisurely walk instead.
7. For fat loss, I always use reverse pyramid training with a double progression scheme. I talked about double progression here. So for example, in Richard’s plan he had “Deadlifts 2 x 4-5”. That means he’d warm-up and then do one set all out in the 4-5 rep range. He’d then rest, lower the weight by 10%, and do another set all-out. If he could get 5 reps in either set, he’d up the weight for that set by by 2.5-5% the next session. When using the RPT-scheme, use no more than 3 sets per movement in the core movements. For assistance movements, 1-2 sets is enough.
8. If you want to lose fat, and possibly gain some strength and muscle in the process, the most important aspect of your diet is protein intake. Though there might not be any benefits beyond 2 g/kg body weight in energy balance, protein needs are elevated on a diet. Generally speaking, 2.5 g/kg is the bare minimum I recommend you get on a daily basis on a diet.
9. There are also other reasons you’d want to keep protein high, such as satiety and TEF, where protein is superior to any other macronutrient. For this reason, I also recommend a high protein intake as part of a lifestyle diet in order to maintain body fat and protect against fat gain once you’ve reached your goals in terms of where you want your physique to be. I talked about this here.
~~~
I’ll get drafting the next installment right away so it’s up within a week to 10 days. We’ll cover the dietary aspects of Martin’s approach and perhaps also the fasting depending upon length. But I suspect fasting will require its own post.
Update: Next installment is up. Leangains: The Dietary Approach
jordan 
Aaron Griffin 
Tommy 
egmutza 
Poisonguy 
great post Rich! Nice gains, too. After reading this I thought i might pass along a recommendation for a book that really influenced my own lifting. “Dinosaur Training” by Brooks Kubik. Heres the link, very good read:
brookskubik.com/dinosaur_training.html
I second that book.
What I am wondering is when you reduce reps and increase weight how many are you doing?
5X5?
3X5?
etc.
Thanks.
generally, 2 sets for the four core moves, 1-2 for the assistance moves. Reps differ from ranges of 3-5 for deeds as Martin pointed out, to 6-8 for most of the others.
The thing to keep in mind is the range. Ideally, when you begin at a new weight for deeds, for example, it should be a weight you can get 3, 4 reps at, not 5, or it’s too light. Once you do hit 5 or more on either set, time to increase for that set on your next workout. You treat each set independently for gains and increases in weight.
Do you mean that for squats, for example, if you can hit five reps the first set, but only 4 the second, you would increase weight for the first set, but not the second the next workout? Thanks.
In principle, yes, and vice versa. However, I am not doing Squats that heavy. I use a 6-8 rep range for squats.
Any reason you’re not doing heavy squats? Your squat progress seems weak compared to your DL progress (90% vs 16%) and it sounds like there might be some thought behind that. Although the ending max lift weight distribution seems more in line with what I’ve seen on lifting blogs/forums than what you started with – maybe your DL was just catching up?
Good catch, pfw.
I could devote a whole post to squats. When I began, at 185, my form sucked. I just was not getting deep enough, and my lower back would sometimes strain.
I got up to 215 really early on and probably could have just progressed, but I was not satisfied. So I said eff it and went all the way back to 135 to attempt ass to grass form. After doing that a while it was just so uncomfortable for me personally in terms of balance, my back, etc that I began doing box squats, 3 sets instead of two, lighter weight to nail form.
Now I think I have it nailed pretty well. I don’t go ass to grass, but just below parallel. In the hole, but just slightly. I also spread my grip out a bit so I could drop the bar down my shoulders about 2″ and this made all the difference for my back.
So, now I’m working my way back up to 215 with a much improved form and the progress from there will probably be reasonably rapid, given my DLs and such.
I also am tossing in a set of incline leg presses after the 2 sets of squats. I do an 8-10 rep range and am currently at about 330 pounds, I believe. It seems to me the strength is there, it’s just a matter of directing it properly.
This might be helpful:
youtube.com/watch?v=xPwG2hqnOx0
Yea, I can and have done all that stuff. I can not only do air squat almost indefinitely as to grass, but I can hold the primal stretch for long periods at a time.
But get that bar on my back and things tend to go to shit fast, though much better now.
Richard,
This makes a lot of sense to me. Ass-to-grass is a nice goal, but not all of us are built to do it safely. Also, I’d like to point out to the other poster that going ass to grass in O-lifting shoes with that big heel is WORLDS easier than doing the same in bare feet (or vff’s in my case).
Leo
I have “Dinosaur training” (two of them actually, one is a first printing and signed) and I was a 5×5 lifter for years. I only did 5×5 squats once and awhile though as I was a 20 rep heavy breathing squats kind of guy. Take your 10 rep max (where you would fail at 11) and do 20 no matter how long it takes without ever taking the weight off your shoulders till you’re done.
Kubik is great…or was…I haven’t been into that stuff for a long while. I used to go ass to grass but found that tops of thighs parallel or just below was enough and safer over time. I think it was a good call backing up your weight and working back up. Squats fucked up my back even though my form was good. Bad form will do you in big time. The heavy weight didn’t get me, it was the light back down set! That’s when form breaks. Beware what seems “easy.” wink
i always do the 4 core throughout the week, leg-chest-back work 2x a week, maybe to much? hey my deadlifts are up in the 330-335 at 4 reps right now but I would be hard pressed to get that 225 at squats. i do have a bad knee that hurts after parallel but i am tall and the leverage is diff for taller people. everyone is different. I was doing the 5×5 right now, and looking more at the progressive overload to gain muscle and strength, but i am considering changing again to reverse pyramid, 3 sets. is the rep range still kept under 10 reps for something like that for the last set in berkhams program?
How much time are you actually spending in the gym each session?
Who me? Never more than 30 minutes.
So 90 minutes a week? Really?
For most of my training, 60, which I have just gone back to in consult with Martin.
Do you have a point you wish to expound upon?
Heh. Nope.
Just doesn’t seem like a lot of time. But I have been reading Martin’s blog, and he doesn’t seem to be recommending more than that to anyone. I can’t imagine that he got to look like he does in those pictures with less than two hours a week training, but my god if he did than this truly is something magnificent.
You don’t need any more than that than 30-45 minutes a few times a week. Most people train stupid, and therefore train too much. Too much volume per exercise, and way too many (useless)exercises on top of that. Not necessarily their fault – the amount of misinformation available is vast, while the amount of quality instruction available is not so much.
You would be hard pressed to find ANY top strength coach recommending anything over 60 minutes a session- most of them less.
Not to mention – more importantly even – that most people eat horribly. Can’t out train poor dietary habits and choices. The harder you try, the further you get behind.
Great post and congratulations
Can you name some of the assistence exercises please?
Martin mentioned a few. I’ll leave it to him what more he may want to reveal.
Although I personally don’t squat and deadlift on the same day, I know of multiple successful powerlifters who do.
Yes, so do I, but they alternate them heavy/light, i.e. they might do high effort/intensity squats and light deads for technique or explosiveness, or vice versa. They don’t do squats to failure followed by deads to failure.*
* It can be done – at least squats followed by deads, not the other way around, and I knew someone that did it for awhile. But it’ll turn into one of those sessions you dread going to the gym for, and that mental pressure isn’t conducive in the long-term.
Martin/Richard
How would you recomend doing squats? In a RPT fashion or just one set of breathing squats of 20 reps?
I find doing “all-out” squats a bit “risky” so I been doing them 3 sets of 5 (starting strenght).
Any suggestions would be appreciated
Well, in competitions powerlifters do it all the time.
But then again, they usually needs a a couple of extra days off after the competition..
Really loving this series. For an ardent reader of both your blog and Martin’s, these posts are a dream come true – peanut butter (okay, almond butter) and chocolate together!
One question I’d have for Martin is if he’s familiar with Paul Jaminet and Shou-Ching Shih’s work over at http://perfecthealthdiet.com . Paul has commented favorably on Martin’s approach to fasting, but seems to have concerns about longevity on a high protein diet. I’m reading their book right now and they suggest no more than 1lb of meat a day and only do 1/2 lb themselves.
Also, Richard, I seem to recall you saying that lately you’ve decreased your meat consumption a bit in favor of fat and starch (very in keeping with the perfecthealthdiet). How much protein do you consume on a daily basis? Have you found you’ve needed as much as Martin recommends to make gains and lose fat?
Not sure what post you are referring too, but in general, workout days are very high protein, moderate starch, low fat and rest days are high protein, low carb and moderate to high fat.
Once Im in maintenance, Ill lower protein, but it will still be a pretty decent amount.
I think this is the one I was thinking of:
freetheanimal.com/2010/01/chicken-mashed-potatoes-gravy-and-how-bad-are-carbs.html
Yea, that was pre Leangains.
I’ve found it is a whole lot easier to stay slim and eat massive amounts of food if you keep to protein. I eat about a kilo and a half of beef everyday, along with about half a dozen eggs. Lately I have been increasing fats and carbs, by adding some extra dairy and some potatoes, and I have found that I am getting bigger gains at the gym but also feel a little bit bloated (even though my weight hasn’t changed), which is a feeling I absolutely hate.
I am suspecting this has more to do with the potatoes than the milk and cheese and butter. I should have added these things separately in order to test each one. Ultimately though, just eating a shitload of beef and eggs mixed with vegetables all day long is probably always ideal, no matter what it is you’re doing – save for possibly endurance training, in which case fruit carbs are probably a good idea.
Oh, and I’m a little guy. 5’7″, 128-132lbs.
Another thought: I mostly just eat ground beef, because it is cheaper (here in the Philippines they mix it with water buffalo meat, usually, and then lie about it, but it doesn’t bother me). I usually just get the leanest possible selection, but maybe a fattier mince would be more ideal. What do you think?
I am not familiar with them, no.
Regarding longevity and high-protein diets, it’s a very interesting topic. I could tell you my thoughts, but it’ll just lead to more questions – I’ve been planning to write about it in the future.
Let me give you something to think about in the meanwhile. Vegans and vegetarians have lower circulating IGF-1 levels, and IGF-1 might speed up the aging process (in laymens terms). This is thought to be due to lower protein intakes and specifically lower methionine intake. Calorie restriction might also play a role. Similarly, anabolic pathways, such as MTOR, is associated with various diseases such as tumor growth, while catabolic pathways such as AMPK is asscoiated with various adaptations that may promote life extension.
OTOH, higher lean body mass in the elderly is strongly and positively associated with longer life spans – this is called the “BMI paradox”. Those with higher muscle mass live longer.
Arguments AGAINST high-protein diets re: life extension:
* High methionine intake
* Elevated activity of anabolic pathways
Arguments FOR high-protein diets re: life extension:
* Real-life results. While the theory behind protein restriction seems good on paper, people with higher lean body mass live longer than those with lower lean body mass. They get sick less often and are less likely to suffer bone fractures.
Hi Martin. Great interview and commentary. I’m on the bubble in terms of high vs moderate vs low protein intake (I’m currently high fat for fat loss). So I’m interested in how you connect positively high-protein diets with real-life results? By real-life results I’m assuming you are talking about the BMI paradox. How do you know these people ate high-protein diets, rather than say, they were more physically active than the lower BMI variety? I’m unaware, for the general population, healthy or otherwise, that muscle mass correlates with high-protein diets. Seems that just adequate protein diets would be enough to sustain the BMIs seen in these long lived folks.
1. High protein intake relative to RDA is beneficial for muscle gain. 2 g/kg is the current consensus for maximal benefit, i.e. there’s no hard evidence that eating more than 2 g/kg yields more LBM gain assuming under or above energy balance.
2. If Average Joe increases protein intake, WITHOUT training, muscle mass is gained & body fat lost. Example: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20887742
In “1.” I was talking about resistance training/strength athletes if that wasn’t clear.
Martin I am current 146lb. My body weight in kg is 66.3. So if it’s 2 g/kg for me it would be 132 grams of protein daily is that correct?
Should the rest of my calories come from carbs and fats? Or should I add more protein to fill in the calories for maximum muscle gain?
Thanks for answering. But how does increased protein intake correlate with increased longevity, is what I was trying to ask (and asked badly)?
And; how cares if you live long if you are so weak that you can’t do anything?
I’d rather live s couple of years less, if those years where wuality years :)
***Typos
hey Martin, what would you recommend for a vegan/vegetarian for getting more protein in the diet? I choose not to eat meat, but I will still dabble in eating eggs-cottage cheese-yogurt products. I heard that tofu can be estregen producing but if its fermented it wouldn’t be a problem. i try for a higher intake of beans and some nut butters but not too high on the latter.
Martin’s a cool cat. Glad you have him helping you out. Good job Richard.
Someday I’m going to visit Sweden and eat him under the table. We’ll have cheesecakes so large, I’ll probably have to finish his up for him.
“Someday I’m going to visit Sweden and eat him under the table.”
That could have been worded differently … just saying. :D
BAHAHAHAHA
Keep dreaming. Speaking of cheesecakes, I have one coming up this weekend.
Dude, loving this LeanGains series so far. I’ve been experimenting with Berkhan’s AM fasting technique recently and I’ve never felt better.
Nice article. I have a question for you or Martin: conditioning is important to me. If it should not be mixed with strength training, when should it be done. Typically, I strength train in the morning, and do conditioning in the afternoon/night time. Is this enough separation?
I am wondering about this too. Strength and conditioning are equally important to me and I would like to be much more than mediocre in both areas. How is this best approached?
This is what my next article is about but what you’re doing right now is the worst possible strategy. Switch places.
Hello Martin, can you share your cheesecake recipe with us? Let me guess, it’s got lots of cottage cheese in it? Maybe get ‘ol Richard to do a post for us.
Looking forward to that article … I am an avid mountain biker, but I also love weight training. My #1 goal is to maintain myself as lean as possible, maintain strength, but not gain unneeded mass. For biking conditioning and strength are also very important … with power/strength ratio being key.