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I Told You To Go Ahead and Fuck Those Vegetables

Well, not that the Mail Online is any sort of authority -- what main stream media outlet whore is? but every now and then, you get tossed a bone. I'll get to that later. But first, I have one bone to pick with some stupid fucking "paleo" bullshit. And I've said it before.

The next time I see some paleo blogger, tweeter, commenter or whatever the fuck...apologizing for his or her love of meat, fish and fowl by heaping praise on vegetables & fruits, I think I'm going to set my sights on figuring out how to physically transport vomit down the Intertubes.

"So colorful, with wonderful textures, and did I mention that they have ANTIOXIDANTS (bow your stupid fuckin' heads)!!!?"

...It rings in my ear like some freshman college coed who just "lost" her "precious gift" only moments ago and is now wheapily atoning for her "sins of the flesh." ...Which, incidentally and of course, is so fucking ignorant as to be dismissible as abject ignorance (or training from jerk-fuck-ignorant parents).

And...So what's your excuse, oh bright, intelligent, mature ones? Why is it that your knee jerk -- or jerk off -- reaction to the charge of "that sounds like Atkins" is to apologetically proclaim that your diet has LOTS OF VEGETABLES. Fuck. That. My diet: lots of meat, mutherfuckers. Choke the fuck on it, you stupids and who, by the way, can't beat your nutrition out of a wet paper sack. Automatic knee jerk jerks who try to get you off guard with Atkins are nothing in the world more than ignorant fucks who ought to be dismissed out of hand. And embarrassed in public. Then pummeled with lamb chops whilst their children watch in lip-smacking horror.

You fucking love meat. Dontcha?

Then why are you always apologizing for it with these fucking veggie dishes? It's so dammed annoying, yawl...paleo pussies. Vegetables serve two purposes: first and foremost, they feed meat. Second, they enhance flavor in profound ways when used properly and otherwise stay outta the fucking way.

So let's get to the link, which was inspiring on a number of levels: This cynical five-a-day myth: Nutrition expert claims we've all been duped. Y'don't say.

With great fanfare, it was reported last week that the current health advice about eating five portions of fruit and vegetables a day is outdated, and that scientists now believe that eight portions is more beneficial.

While many people grumbled about how on earth they would manage those extra portions, I allowed myself a wry smile.

For more than two years I’ve known that the ‘five-a-day’ mantra we’re all so familiar with is nothing but a fairytale.

Ha! If five is good, then eight must certainly be better (this is because -- of course -- epidemiology on vegetable consumption demonstrates no benefit; so, because we just know, increase it until we get the epidemiological result we want -- kicking the can forward a coupla more decades where we'll all be retired).

Of course, they are tasty, colourful additions to any meal. But in terms of health and nutrition, fruit and veg have little to offer, and telling us to eat eight portions a day is compounding one of the worst health fallacies in recent history.

Tasty, colorful, and nutritionally vapid. Let's see. Zoe Harcombe, again:

People are convinced that fruit and vegetables are a particularly good source of vitamins and minerals.

For a long time, I too was a believer. I was a vegetarian for 20 years. It is only after nearly two decades of my own research — I am a Cambridge graduate and currently studying for a PhD in nutrition —that I have changed my views.

The message that fruit and veg are pretty useless, nutritionally, gradually dawned on me.

The facts are these. There are 13 vitamins and fruit is good for one of them, vitamin C.

Vegetables offer some vitamins — vitamin C and the vegetable form of the fat-soluble vitamins A and vitamin K1 — but your body will be able to absorb these only if you add some fat, such as butter or olive oil.

The useful forms of A and K — retinol and K2 respectively — are found only in animal foods. As for minerals, there are 16 and fruit is good for one of them, potassium, which is not a substance we are often short of, as it is found in water.

Vegetables can be OK for iron and calcium but the vitamins and minerals in animal foods (meat, fish, eggs and dairy products) beat those in fruit and vegetables hands down. There is far more vitamin A in liver than in an apple, for instance.

But surely, people ask, even if there is no evidence that increasing our intake of fruit and vegetables will help prevent disease, they remain good things to eat?

I don’t think so. If people try to add five portions of fruit and veg — let alone eight — a day to their diet, it can be counterproductive. Fruit contains high levels of fructose, or fruit sugar. [...]

Fructose goes straight to the liver and is stored as fat. Very few people understand or want to believe this biochemical fact.

That last paragraph? How long have I and others been saying that? Well, I'm not perfect, but I far prefer scotch to fruit. Any day.

By the way. You noted that she, Zoe Harcombe, is a nutritionist? But guess what? By her own admission, she fucked up, to put it in my way of words. For the most part and never intending at the outset, nutritionists are (as are most white coats) merely -- and I do mean merely in the most base way -- nothing more than regurgitators of data...which makes them second rate to most autisticsThier only real skill is that they can test competently to dispense their regurgitated data, passed down as Catechism from the nutritional, medicinal pope. Let's continue.

Another argument that is often put forward by dieticians on behalf of fruit and vegetables is that they are ‘a source of antioxidants’.

They believe we need to have more antioxidants in our diet to counteract the oxidants that damage the body’s cells, either as a result of normal metabolic processes or as a reaction to environmental chemicals and pollutants.

But I would rather concentrate on not putting oxidants such as sugar, processed food, cigarette smoke or chemicals into my body.

I'm gonna puke the next time I hear 'antioxidant' from a paleo. To my mind, the idea is less substantiated than the lipid hypothesis. Real Food.

Besides, fruit has a fraction of the antioxidants of coffee, though you rarely hear dieticians singing coffee’s praises.

Incidentally, the body’s natural antioxidant is vitamin E, which is found in seeds — and particularly sunflower seeds.

Another problem is that dieticians tell you to eat less fat. We’re told that fat is bad for us but this has not been proven at all.

Of course, man-made trans-fats such as those found in biscuits and cakes are very unhealthy and should be banned.

But natural fats such as those in eggs, meat and fish should not be demonised alongside trans-fats. They are essential to our wellbeing and they are what we’ve lived on for thousands of years.

According to a recent survey, the British people are deficient in vitamins A, D, E — all of which are fat-soluble. If we added a dollop of butter to our portion of vegetables, they would be better for us — not worse. [...]

If only we had hand-picked the five foodstuffs that are actually most nutritious and spent what the Department of Health has spent on promoting fruit and vegetables over the past 20 years on recommending them, we could have made an enormous difference to the health and weight of our nation.

If you ask me, these foodstuffs are liver (good for all vitamins and packed with minerals), sardines (for vitamin D and calcium), eggs (all-round super-food with vitamins A, B, D, E and K, iron, zinc, calcium and more), sunflower seeds (magnesium, vitamin E and zinc) and dark-green vegetables such as broccoli or spinach (for vitamins C, K and iron).

Well, I gotta run and tend to the shoulder with some imaging. Consider this post a Hegelian synthesis. Thesis: my shoulder hurts. Antithesis: fuck the whole world. Synthesis: do an f-bomb laden post as therapy.

The super synthesis is that I may, just may, be getting my groove back.

Hey, if you liked this crazy & vulgar rant, please Facebook and Tweet it with the buttons up top.

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Comments

  1. Outstanding, Richard!

  2. just wanted to say that this was a real joy to read. Hilarious. I’d say you definitely got it back. Great one.

  3. Richard, my husband and I were dancing a jig in the kitchen when we read the article yesterday. I posted it to my Facebook page, and reposted it on Twitter. Thank you so much for getting the message out to even more people. I’m reminded of Dr. Eades’ latest blog post about the Big Lie. We must all hold these so-called experts feet to the fire and make them tell us where they are getting their information. Can’t cite a study? Then call their BULLSHIT!!
    Thanks again for all that you do. The Paleo world wouldn’t be the same without you!

  4. Thanks for this. Great use of the f-bomb. I echo Jeanie’s sentiments.

  5. Seems like the perfect storm has brewed. Now all we need is another 15 minute + video full of f-bombs (and scotch)

  6. I have never laughed so hard in agreement
    brilliant – just brilliant!!!

  7. Well that didn’t work like I hoped.

  8. Well Richard, you know what they say…..cuCUMbers are better than men! LOL! So yes, veggies serve a purpose and not only as food!

  9. Well I’d hate to see you when you are reall wound up! Nice.

    Just one thing – and I am hoping I haven’t read it wrong, but the piece was written by a nutritionist Zoe Harcombe and she referred to Andrew Lansley:

    “In a long-awaited Public Health White Paper late last year, Health Secretary Andrew Lansley said that only three in ten adults eat the ­recommended five-a-day.Later in the same document, he asks how can we improve the use of evidence in public health. My suggestion is that he gets his own facts on five-a-day straight and saves himself the bother of worrying about fruit and veg.”

    Quoting RN:

    “or the most part and never intending at the outset, nutritionists, as most white coats are, merely — and I do mean merely in the most base way — nothing more than regurgitators of data…which puts them second rate to most autistics. Thier only real skill is that they can test competently to dispense their regurgitated data, passed down as catchism from the nutritional and medical pope.”

    Very true. I can tell you, having come through that system, that independent thought outside of standard nutritional/public health policy isn’t allowed. And when I say ‘isn’t allowed’, you can think it & write it on your exam paper, but ultimately you will get the answer ‘wrong’. And as most trainee nutritionists are vying to get into Dietitian School, you will do & say anything that is required of you to get good grades and make the cut.

    I made the cut but, luckily, told them to shove the position. It only took me a decade after that to see the light!

    • Yeah, Harcombe is a diet book author and columnist that recently jumped on the paleo bandwagon after being a vegetarian.

    • Thanks for the heads up, Jamie. Was trying to get done before leaving for radiology. Tuned up I had to wait 30 anyway… Found a couple typos and a blown quote while sitting there, so I’ll get all fixed.

    • Victoria says:

      Regurgitation of the standard answer is, unfortunately, generally required in so many areas, including medicine. I frequently find myself answering questions with ‘To my friends and family I’d recommend X, but if they ask me on the boards I’d say Y’. Because telling a diabetic to stop eating carbs is CRAZY talk…

  10. “Fuck. That. My diet: lots of meat, mutherfuckers.”

    Anyone else read this line like Samuel Jackson? :)

  11. i think your shoulder hurts because you don’t have enough ANTIOXIDANTS from VEGETABLES and FRUITS.

    • My fuckn’ ass, qualia.

      • well, it was a JOKE anyways. that’s why there were so many CAPITALS..
        however, i’m not convinced that plants don’t serve an important part in our nutrition at all tho. the paleo pendulum is swinging waaay to far into the “meat only” direction right now in my opinion (not just here).. it’s as nonsensical as thinking being a vegan is superior or cool.

      • Cool, qualia about it being a joke.

        But I repeat: I am not advocating zero carb. Please understand this. First off, it’s a rant so there’s grain of salt element number one. Second, I am not hating on vegetables per se, but on their emphasis.

        Finally, the base, scientific point here is that vegetables are crap nutrition compared to meat (especially organ meat), fish, fowl, eggs. And probably good fats, too.

      • i think that’s not quite fair.. look at blueberries or avocados for example. one easily could call them superfoods as well. but i get your point.

      • A lot of stuff is being labeled a superfood these days, to me these labels are all theoretical if there is no immediate benefit to consuming the food. I have nothing against blueberries or avocados and eat them both once in a while but when deciding what to eat I look at what the food can do for me TODAY.

        I might get run over by a truck a month or a year from now so the long-term effect of eating the food is secondary.

        I know what the pot roast I am having for dinner can do for me today, it can provide me with the protein and fat I need to make sure the hour I spent lifting weights this afternoon isn’t wasted.

        Can’t say the same for blueberries.

        As far as TODAY is concerned, pot roast is a superfood, blueberries, not so much.

        As you get older immediacy take on added importance, I don’t have decades for the blueberries to work their magic, I want something that will add to the quality of my life right now.

      • My gut always gets twisted in knots every time I see a stock photo of a fruit or vegetable on a “healthy eating” infomercial. What about a beautiful centerfold spread of a juicy, sizzling grass-fed steak? Or a deep-red piece of liver with some onions for garnish? or a stick of pastured butter?

    • Al Ciampa says:

      Actually, Qualia, Richard’s shoulder is fucked up due to heavy lifting. The fact that his diet is by definition a low-inflammatory diet, and he is feeling some sharp pain indicates that he may have a real problem.

      Not that I blame him, but grinding out heavy deads, squats, and presses, at his age and without prior years under the barbell, probably contributed.

      Let the mileage be your guide, Richard. I’m an expert at this, trust me.

      -Al

      • I’m slightly humbled, Al.

        Hopefully enough to be patient getting to a 500# DL. Serious, about the goal and the humility.

      • Al Ciampa says:

        Richard,

        In all seriousness, I like you. You talk the talk and walk the walk. Not sure if it was part of our past communications, but I’m a retired Army Infantry NCO. I respect you as a Sailor and man with a loose tongue and a firm message. Educated too.

        From my 20+ years under the barbell in both Olympic and Powerlifting settings, my years training others in the service and beyond, and my last several years as a professional strength coach, here it is:

        500 dead is doable.

        Once you’ve impinged, inflamed, or torn a rotator cuff muscle (severely) you’re never right again – even if you fly to New York city for surgical intervention. This is my experience dealing with athletes. Suck it up, dude and take your time getting back into it.

        Ok, here it is, my one ounce of gold for you and the the fans:

        Pack the shoulders.

        What does this mean? It means use the larger muscles of the torso to stabilize your humerus before you engage in movement. What does it feel like? NOT the position of attention. It is pulling your scapula, and gleno-humeral joints down toward your waist – strong and solid. If one lacks the strength to pull down the shoulders (and maintain) with the lats, pecs, et al, then they should reduce weight until they come up to par. I’m telling you, this is the main source of shoulder problems in the non-throwing sports. Pack the shoulders, first… then engage. Make it ceremony.

        I’m humbled that you’re humbled, truly. You’ve got a great thing going here, supporting the force if they want it, and asking no money for it.

        I just relocated to Guam for a civilian position with the AF (fitness based) – you must have been through here once or twice… fucking beautiful. Anyway, peace brother, continue to fight the fight, and let your mileage be your guide. Of course, push it when you’re feeling it.

        Thanks for the past few years of info and entertainment.

        -Al

      • Al, I’m trying to visualize packing the shoulders and I think I’ve got it… maybe. When you say “pulling your scapula, and gleno-humeral joints down toward your waist – strong and solid” do you mean basically just pulling your shoulder blades down and back and pinning them there?

        I’ve been doing that (well, mostly just back… I’ll now add the down) on my bench press and it saved my shoulder from further injury and allowed it to heal. I believe it was Richard who suggested that I pin my shoulder blades back on the bench when I complained of shoulder pain awhile ago.

        Just trying it now I can feel how much more stable I feel, so I’m definitely going to consciously add this to every lift I do.

      • C August

        Yes, I did talk about squeezing the blades together on bench and it probably saved me from injury sooner, but I was doing the chicken wing thing with my arms and that maybe what got me.

      • Ah. When I started squeezing my shoulder blades on the bench, I also started pinning my elbows down on my sides. I had been chicken winging, and it really hurt my shoulder. As soon as I started pinning my elbows, it got better.

      • Al Ciampa says:

        August/Richard,

        Pinning the blades together is how I used to do it as well, especially on max bench presses – packing the shoulders is the same concept though a little different. It helps to see the anatomy on a diagram.

        Anatomically, you’re placing the load where it belongs, on the larger movers of the torso: pectorals and latissimus dorsi. Google to find a diagram. The pecs and lats insert into the humerus just below the shoulder joint. they function as humeral movers but also provide super strong stabilization – you just have to engage them.

        Rotator cuff muscles’ function is to keep the humerus in the glenoid (socket) cup of the scapula. The 4 muscles insert on the ball at the top of the humerus and form a ‘cuff’. These muscles and tendons are relatively weak as compared to the pecs and lats. Not packing the shoulders, or not engaging the the pecs and lats to hold your shoulders stable will result in the cuff receiving the load – in the case of heavy deads or bench presses, viola, torn cuff muscle or tendon.

        What is should feel like is both the pecs and lats being contracted, isometrically – a ‘most muscle’ kind pose, for you ex-bodybuilders. It’s not quite a ‘pin the blades together’. This is unnecessarily putting the load on rhomboids and lower trapezius. You want a concerted effort between all the prime movers: pull the shoulder down toward the waist is the best description I can think, without standing in front of you to demonstrate and correct. Muscles are antagonistic, so cuing an athlete to ‘squeeze’ (contract) one side will cause its antagonist to contract even harder.

        Again, one thing about rotator cuff injury, even the mild cases can bother you for life. Avoidance is best.

        Hope this helps.

        -Al

      • “Again, one thing about rotator cuff injury, even the mild cases can bother you for life. Avoidance is best.”

        Damn, this is a depressing thought but you are probably right. I messed mine up jogging in the snow of all things and thought it had gone away only to have it flare back up again. Mild to be sure, compared to what Richard is going through, but sucks nonetheless.

        My flareup, though, coincides with my slacking off of (bodyweight) exercise.

      • Thanks Al. I will heed.

        Nope, 5 years tooling around WestPac and never made it to Guam.

  12. Fucking great blog. I’m glad to see one paleo motherfucker not backing down. Thanks for the link to J. Stanton’s http://www.gnolls.org.

  13. I agree with everything in this article. BTW, vitamin C is unimportant to survival for people eating a true paleo diet. Vitamin C is only important if a person consumes carbs, because glucose competes with vit C for the vit C receptor sites, and effectively blocks vit C. This is why sailors who ate bread had such a devastating vit C deficiency. Had they been eating meat only, they would not have experienced ascorbic acid issues, like scurvy.

    Now then, while antioxidants has always been a red herring, the physiological effect of certain plant molecules, like resveratrol, pterostilbene, and dozens of others are quite proven to be beneficial to human health, though not for being antioxidants.

    • Good to hear that from you, Scott. I know you spend a lot of time & money on this and you’re no dummy. Yea, I have yet to see a study that even suggests ingesting antioxidants are worth the time and expense. But minerals, fat sol vitamins and exotic super compounds? Jury is out on some, in on others (I’d argue d3 and k2, perhaps others), and the rest? Self experimentation. And that’s fine.

  14. All I can say, is Fuck Yeah! It’s posts like this that keep me coming back. And to top it off, I have another awesome argument for my meat heavy diet. YUM!

  15. A third use of vegetables is as a delivery vehicle for tasty animal fats.

  16. brilliant

  17. This post is so full of goodness that I’ll have to read it again.

    To stay in the spirit of this post I just happen to be going out for to dinner tonight that will consist of chicken wings with a side of wings and wings for dessert – 3 pounds ought to do for a start!

  18. clifton harski says:

    Lamb chop weaponry=LOL
    Paleo Pussies=Excellent catchphrase.

  19. Hilarious… always fun to read your writing. I agree, meat is a better source of nutrients, etc, of course, as long as it is from clean sources that do eat their veggies, unlike the grain fed obese cows of mass produced farms.
    I personally enjoy vegetables and eat them with meat and healthy fats all the time, but when most people hear the “eat five a day of fruits and veggies” they think it means “eat five servings of fruit related products a day, because fruits are sweeter and taste better than veggies.” Most people are also under the impression that fruit juices count for that ‘fruit and veggie” serving, so really their “5-a-day” recommendation becomes little more than an excuse to shoot their blood sugar up with high levels of fructose. I think most of the problems here come from over consumption of fruit, not consumption of green leafy veggies as part of a healthy (paleo) meal.
    As for what tastes better…. bacon, hands down!

  20. Good to see you in contuing fine form Richard.
    Author, though, is Zoe Harcombe not Andrew Lansley

    • Thanks Prue. And just to reiterate, someone pointed that out and it goes without saying: my apologies to the author of that fine piece. Will fix as soon as my trap is sufficiency iced after the grueling radiological experience and I’ve finished my scotch.

  21. I like many vegetables. But vegetables = contrast. They’re a must for a proper stir-fry or a great soup, and can be great in other contexts. The roasted cauliflower I had tonight was superb. Occasionally, I want nothing more than a big leafy salad full of great in-season tomatoes. I don’t feel that’s apologizing for anything; I feel that’s what my palate enjoys and my body seems to like.

    But always, ALWAYS, the veg are chosen in relationship to the meat. We don’t say “I want cauliflower for dinner”, we say we want lamb rogan josh, damn it, and this particular cauliflower dish makes a fine accompaniment.

    • Yep, Josh. No one should confuse my over the top entertainment for actual hate of veggies. I like a good many, but as I said, as long as they stay outta the way.

  22. I love carrots. Not as much as I love steak. But, thankfully carrots go well with beef.

  23. Vegetables do make good condiments…for meat :) Does anyone else feel like the entire CW world is collapsing?

    • That’s why we’re seeing so many hysterical defenses of the status quo: I can’t count the number of silly pro-carb articles I’ve seen recently. The establishment is finally realizing that real food eaters are a threat that won’t go away: we’re fit, happy, healthy, well-informed, articulate…and therefore dangerous.

  24. Fuck Nikoley, it’s about time you get off the goody-two-shoes, peacenik bandwagon.

    • Just ’cause you love Body Works (like my wife)? :)

      No soap, no poo; forever!!!!

      Revolution. We will burry you in over priced, high end, wonderfully smelling products!!!!!

  25. I enjoyed the linked article, but sure enough, the very first comment I saw at the bottom of the page was an appeal to the authority of the China Study.

  26. TrailGrrl says:

    Bwahahahaha! Great post. I don’t even feel bad about not having a veggie in a few days.

    TG

  27. I can already see people sneaking more veggies in:

    “Meat is only OK if the animals are fed veggies exclusively!”

    False.

  28. But….how will you get your fiber…..? (Ducking….) :D

    • I get plenty of fiber in my diet…

      …muscle fiber!

      (rim shot)

    • I do wonder, seriously, whether some people think that your body is incapable of taking a shit unless you eat fibre.

      • Because you adsorb close to 95% percent of quality meat cuts. Eggs vanish almost completely in your GI tract. Hence not much excretion without veggies.

      • Nastia:

        I don’t believe it.

      • It’s from “Packing for Mars” by Mary Roach. I mean, maybe at least NASA has measured something right.

      • Nastia is right. Meat and eggs are almost entirely absorbed. Stefansson reported that the Inuit he lived with (living off pemmican for nine months) only need to take a crap every once a week. Most of your gift to the porcelain god is made up of body wastage (not food) when you aren’t eating stuff your body can’t properly digest and avoid.

        But even so, you still shit, just not as much, because you don’t have anything to get rid of. So, its another benefit to eating paleo: Less time spent on the can.

        Still, my point was that I’ve met people who think the human body cannot shit UNLESS you eat fiber.

  29. Great fucking post Richard!

    I completely feel where you are coming from. Advice and opinions like yours have been immeasurably inspirational to the changes that I have been making in my lifestyle. I am currently at 4 months no poo and loving it!

    I give credit to you and your blog in my Progress Information post on my blog at http://taoofrich.blogspot.com/2010/12/progress-information.html.

  30. I think sir that said mojo has returned. Bravo.

    But regarding the title of this post, I’m sorry, I’m just not THAT into vegetables.

  31. Phocion Timon says:

    My attitude towards vegetables: if one must move even a small piece of veggy to get at the meat, one has way too much veggie on one’s plate.

  32. Hmmm. I like meat. I also like vegetables. Which is better? There’s only one way to find out…. FIGHT!

    Ref: Harry Hill’s TV Burp – The Fights

  33. Victoria says:

    Fucking love it!

    Reminds me of when I take novice friends to Churrascarias… Never, EVER, go to the free salad bar until you’ve eaten as much meat as you can possibly stomach. Then, and only then, you can go to the salad bar (where they want you to fill up on cheap stuff instead of delicious prime rib!) to try and refresh your pallet so you can come back and EAT MORE MEAT!

    • I agree. Why go to a Brazilian meatapalooza place and go to the salad bar? I did notice at the one near me, however, that they had half-inch thick bacon at the salad bar, so I made sure to make a visit for that.

  34. Well, that sure was timely. I’d been questioning just how much was necessary and now I’ll be eating my vegetables purely for pleasure rather than out of any sense of duty and not sweat it if I happen to go without.

  35. Hell yeah! I love you almost as much as I love meat! :)

  36. Awesome man! I like the saying like this: Vegetables are just a vehicle for butter and to garnish a fucking sauce! NOTHING beats my veal stock, chicken stock, or whatnot. Today I made a coconut curry chicken soup with a bit of baby corn, a half an orange pepper, and a head of cauliflower. That fed my whole fucking family. My son ate it and PREFERRED it to McFuckinNuggets. That’s a win in my books! 5 servings of veg, my ass! I had a salad at lunch today, mostly so I could drizzle that awesome olive oil on it, and have blue cheese, artisan salumi, and sardines. Sure, there might have been 1/2 a tomato there, but it was more for flavor, that’s it. Breakfast might have a half avocado there, maybe salsa in place of the ketchup.
    Antioxidants? Fuck that. I really don’t buy into that shit. Here is the deal; stop eating fucking fried foods, and you won’t have to worry about anti-oxidants!

    • Great comment Jason S. Looks like your veggies are keeping their propper place and staying outta the fucking way. I like me a green salad, but it’s not like I’m gonna leave my lover. (don’t tell the meat).

  37. Earl Cannonbear says:

    It’s official.

    The votes have been counted.

    The funniest blog in the paleosphere.

  38. It is almost eight o’clock in the evening here on the west coast and reading this rant is the best/fun thing I’ve done today. Always a pleasure Richard.

  39. Hell yes, Richard!

    I saw those same articles, and we are thinking the same thing, because I just posted this today:

    “Remember, fatty meat is your primary source of calories and nutrients. Quite a few ‘mainstream’ paleo books and sources sugarcoat or dance around this. You’re a predator: eat like one.”

    “Extra-virgin olive oil, cheese, avocados, and nuts are OK in moderation…think of them as condiments, not ingredients. If you need to eat a can of nuts or a brick of cheese, you didn’t eat enough meat.”

    “Eat Like A Predator, Not Like Prey”
    http://www.gnolls.org/1141/eat-like-a-predator-not-like-prey-paleo-in-six-easy-steps-a-motivational-guide/
    (yes, you’re linked in it)

    Vegetarians and vegans should be apologizing to us for taking perfectly good forage away from all those tasty cows, sheep, elk, deer, and goats that could be eating them instead.

  40. Truly epic (and hilarious) post, Richard!

    As a guy who spent most of his life buying the “plant-based diet” mythos hook, line, and sinker, I’ve been slower to embrace the all-encompassing awesomeness that is MEAT a bit more than I’d care to admit. (I’m currently in the process of eating some kind of offal every day for 28 days, to get over the “ewww” factor and because I want to make liver a staple in my diet.)

    But now that I’m basically surviving off pot roast, scrambled eggs, and bacon, I guess you could say I’m beginning to see the light!

    That being said, I’ll always be a fan of produce. Maybe it was my time working in the produce department of a small co-op in Minneapolis, but I’ve always loved the vast array of flavors, textures, and colors that you get with fruits and veggies.

    I think the seasonal “anchors” have something to do with it too. I can’t imagine springtime without asparagus and strawberries, summer without blueberries, peaches, and tomatoes, or fall without delicata squash.

    Are they overhyped? Oh, yeah. I’ve been eating very few veggies other than potatoes, carrots, and onions the last few months. I’ll still be eating fruit and veg in the future, if only for the variety. But I’ll never give up my ribeyes!

  41. Wow, the last time I saw something so … aggressive and one sided … on a diet site was when I was a vegan. I hope this isn’t what the paleo movement will devolve into. It certainly isn’t a way to win over converts. And I think that personally I require more science than firmly stated opinions by one nutritionist before I leave out the gather part of my hunter-gatherer diet. For instance, humans seem to be wired for craving fructose so that we’ll get the nutrients available in fruits when they’re available. (Which screws us now that they’re available all the time.) Makes sense in an evolutionary way.

    I’m not even saying that your wrong. Just there’s as much science here as on a vegan post. If you’re going counter to conventional wisdom, even as found on most paleo sites, one expects more to back it up. Perhaps some reference to evolution and consuming wild greens, example societies like Kitavans, I don’t know, something.

    And deliver your opinions however you wish to. I enjoy your blog in general. In fact, this is the only post I haven’t enjoyed. And in some ways I did. I certainly don’t mind the cussing part, just the aggression. I’ll probably keep dropping by, just as I’ll keep eating my veggies with paleo until truly convinced otherwise, and just as I’ll keep only using soap if I’m truly dirty.

    • Wow, what’s surprising is it took this many comments to find a clueless dumb fuck.

      • Hello Richard,

        I don’t see any reason for you to be so angry at vegetables. The person with strange expectations here is you, expecting at around 50 years of age to be able to intensive weight training nearly unsupervised just because you eat lots of red meat.

        Richard, cavemen passed away in their early forties (or sooner). Even the Inuit who lived on Paleo diets up until about seventy years ago recognise that with time the hunter slows and must survive on wits rather than speed and strength. And somewhere not far north of your years and even mine, they head out onto the ice to perish alone rather than become a burden to their communities.

        What you have to do here is slow down and train slowly and carefully, not for gain but for preservation. That’s the way father time works. Neither red meat nor vegetables can change these biological reality. The fountain of youth has long been sought. Some nutcases try to find it bathing or drinking the blood of virgins.

        I hope you’re not that far gone yet.

        I hope your shoulder heals soon. Take care of yourself.

      • Al Ciampa says:

        I respectfully disagree, Alec.

        You can, and should, live until you die. Age had less to do with Richard’s injury than improper technique/lack of instruction and/or too much too soon. He uses a trainer, so that part is not his fault. ‘Slowing down’ before an injury or disability will cause just that, as we age.

        I agree with you, however, that once a condition arises, it must be attended to. But an otherwise healthy 50, 60, 70, or 80 something year old can still shoot for the stars. Every exercise physiology text recommends resistance training for the elderly. Yes, you can’t turn back the clock. Yes, you will be slower and weaker than you were when you were younger. But it is no excuse to settle for a walker or cane just yet.

        Additionally, Richard’s program is slow, it’s just heavy. It’s not like he’s throwing his body around with Oly-lifting, plyometrics, or some other ballistic modality. Comment within your knowledge base, please.

        -Al

      • Hello Al,

        The problem with your approach is that it waits for a condition to arise. Once a condition has arisen and you are substantially over 40, it’s too late. It takes months and years to recover from injuries which would previously take days and weeks from which to recover. So after the fact pacing is too late.

        You have to anticipate the breakdowns and avoid them, by not pushing as hard. That’s why in all but a few select endurance sports, the pros leave the sport around 40 give or take five years on either side. It’s not because they are tired of making millions of dollars.

        Richard pushed too hard, believing in the power of red meat to protect him. And now he’s paying the price. His story is a salutary one: don’t overdo it later in life in resistance or any other kind of stress training – or pay for your excesses with years of recovery.

      • Well Alec, I only wish I knew as much about my condition as you seem to. And just as an aside, while I’ve never said that significant protein intake is any sort of magic potion, it is nonetheless very important in retaining (and even growing, in my case), lean mass. You may be unaware, but one way to think about eventual demise is the gradual loss of lean mass. As Art De Vany has shown many times, lean mass is critical for proper immune system function and when you’ve lost about 40% of your muscle, you die.

        At any rate, the “diagnosis” of an impinged rotator cuff is really only a guess at this point because there has yet to be an MRI performed. It could also be a joint issue, and, it could be totally unrelated to weight lifting as a cause, because it could also be nerve related.

        The latter is particularly interesting because as a point of history, years ago I used to wake up now and then with my right trapezius very tight, in pain, and causing tremendous neck pain. This would take about 2 weeks to resolve. No known cause, other than “sleeping wrong.”

        Eventually, I found that by going to a chiropractor soon after symptoms began, had him pop my neck side to side and crack my back, I would get 40-60% relief almost immediately and then the condition would quickly resolve completely in a few days.

        In this case, the very first symptoms I noticed were in late Nov, Early Dec where I had a sore right trapezius, neck pain. 800mg ibuprofen seemed to resolve it. Then, a week or so later, it cropped up again, this time during a workout. However, it came on slowly, gradual intensifying, first in the neck & trap, then the shoulder. There was no particular exercise I can point to, no particular Ooooops!

        Since then, it goes from bad to awful to no pain whatsoever to bad and awful and over and over. The worst is when trying to sleep. The best? When I’m moving around and doing stuff with my arm & shoulder. Sitting and standing still are medium uncomfortable.

        The pain also darts around. When my trap hurts, my shoulder has no pain. Then the shoulder hurts and I have no pain in the trap. And then sometimes my right arm goes numb and tingly. And yes, I do have to wonder about Tension Myositis Syndrome (TMS) as suggested by my friends Kurt Harris, MD and Doug McGuff, MD.

        The bottom line is that my 50th bday party is on Saturday and I will present at a weight I was at when in college, the best body composition of my life in terms of lean/fat ratio and the strongest ever in my life, discounting this temporary setback. I also am off the allergy meds I was on since college, and GERD meds I’d been on for a decade. And my rotting gums I had two surgeries on in 2001 have not only resolved but reversed.

        I havent had so much as a headcold in 2-3 years.

        I think I’m doing pretty well and far from heading out to die in the distance for the good of fat America, things are just beginning for me.

        I think the second 50 years is going to be far better than the first.

      • Al Ciampa says:

        Alec,

        “The problem with your approach is that it waits for a condition to arise.”

        Being born is essentially waiting for a condition to arise. If your vehicle is working, go ahead and drive it. “[A]nticipate the breakdowns” should not mean lay down and wait for death, or worse, incontinence.

        You can’t even compare pro sports with recreational weight lifting. Richard didn’t “push it too hard” like an aging linebacker playing in the super bowl; in fact, he is physiologically incapable to push it as hard as a professional. He simply engaged in his choice of resistance training and went for it, just like the exercise and sports medicine organizations recommend.

        Richard attended to this first, but he does not believe meat has any magical power of protection; it is simply the prerequisite substance the body requires to function, athletically.

        -Al

      • Al:

        Moving forward, I wonder what you would suggest as a restarting point on deadlifts once I resume. My last two sets were 315 x 3 followed by 285 x 4.

        I do think I understand your “packing the shoulders” technique in isometrically pitting the pecs against the lats. I can do that at will, to the point where I have to let off the intensity slowly. Kinda like a body builder pose, I suppose.

        BTW, any recommendations for should rehabilitation exercises in terms of weight, form, reps, sets and number of times per day to perform them?

      • Al Ciampa says:

        Richard,

        The most recent thing I have read from you is that a diagnosis has not been made. It would be irresponsible of me at best to prescribe rehab techniques when I am not familiar with your history or specific condition. If your health team figures it out, I do have some great mobility drills for every joint, as well as some kettlebell drills that are essentially, weighted yoga-like stuff.

        As to the deadlift, again, I would need to familiarize myself with your lifting history, but if your shoulder does not hurt when you pull, you can probably pull. I noticed above that you posted a load of 315 x triple. Is this your very best triple? I thought I had read somewhere that you were approaching 400lbs at one time. Maybe I drink too much too.

        Aside from the injury, if you were looking for a 500lb pull, I’d get you to back off on the frequency of pulls: maybe two to three times per month. I’m sure that you love deadlifting, but it stresses out the CNS. You can do way more with less here – remember if the goal is that heavy pull, you can’t feed your need to to pull too often.

        Make sure that your squatting at least twice per week, one heavy, one at 50% or so of the heavy day with dynamic squats.

        How tall are you? If you’re under 6’4″ or so with longer femur/torso ratio, I’d get you to widen your pull stance as well – not sumo style, but wider than you may be used to. Use your particular levers to your advantage.

        This is all very general, Richard. If you’d like specifics, I’d need some background – feel free to email me.

        -Al

      • Al:

        Latest news I’m taking as good. Yesterday with the chiropractor, while doing the ART, he began doing deep pressure massage of my neck and my shoulder and right arm went nuts in pain. Then he pressed hard on the c4-5 region I I hit the ceiling in writhing shoulder and arm pain. I don’t believe I’ve ever experienced pain like that.

        Bottom line is it’s likely I actually have no shoulder injury at all, but either a disc rupture, bone spure or even some congenital issue in that neck region. I lean towards something congenital of a very old injury that just hit the right spot, as I have for decades felt niggling, spurious weirness in my right arm. Just little, unexplainable jabs of pain every now and then.

        I’ll post on it when I have more info and the xrays are in.

        Would love to hear anything you might know about anything like this from experience.

      • It still doesnt rule out tms/trigger points. You have to look for everything but the the danger is you will find something that doesnt mean anything.Just remember that the old it “hurts, there must be tissue damage” doesnt explain how the body really works. Good luck,it can be very frustrating.

      • I had a pretty big herniation of the disk between C4 and C5 in 2003. Bad shit, amigo.

        Among the laundry list of troubles and symptoms, I lost about 99% of my left arm strength and had numbness in my left biceps. Behind my left shoulder blade, it felt like one of those red-hot rivets they use on building skyscrapers have moved in. I couldn’t so much as tilt my head up one inch without experiencing the kind of pain that goes well beyond words. Sleeping in a bed was out of question, so I spent several months in a recliner chair.

        First surgeon consulted wanted to cut on me immediately. Second surgeon suggested exhausting more conservative things first, so I did that. Lucky for me, the disk responded very well to a steroid injection (the needle went in through the front of neck, though I was unconscious for it!).

        To this day, I’m reminded of it every few hours due to some little ping or other, but it’s totally manageable and has no meaningful impact on me anymore.

        Best wishes to you.

      • Al Ciampa says:

        Richard,

        I agree with others – it doesn’t confirm a diagnosis; but it probably indicates that you tense your head and neck too much during the lifts. This is not uncommon.

        It may not solve the problem, but concentrate on relaxing your head and neck – specifically, try to keep your neck neutral rather than hyperextending, especially on squats and deadlifts. You don’t need to excessively ‘look up’; just keep your neck in a neutral position and look about 15ft in front of you out on the ground.

        And for christsake, if your not doing it already, don’t lift in front of a mirror – they throw everything off.

        Good luck, man. Keep me posted.

        -Al

      • Al Ciampa says:

        Richard,

        I just reread your post. If you do have cervical spine disc herniation or otherwise – a couple of things with respect to the barbell.

        1. Bench press. Don’t drive your head into the bench. Use lighter weights at first to train yourself to relax your head and neck.

        2. Overhead lifts. Whenever you put the bar overhead also keep your neck loose. Traps tight, neck loose – it takes some practice, but although the traps do help to hyperextend the head, it’s easy to keep the neck loose – slightly forward, and loose.

        3. And again, squats and deads – don’t look up, look out and toward the ground.

        Hope this helps.

        -Al

      • VW, always nice to hear from someone who has gone through it. I can’t decide which is worse, the throbbing pain in the deltoid, the sharp pain in the triceps or biceps, then general numbness and tingling in the arm, or the hot knife in the trapezius region. Luckily, they are usually not in force at once, but dancing around to torment me. And then I have moments and hours of nearly pain free.

        That’s just to sucker me. Maybe there is a devil, or a cruel God….

        Anyway, x-ray turned up nothing which is not surprising, but good news anyway. Next step is MRI, and a script for Vicodin.

      • I can assure you that there are ways to get past it, even if it doesn’t seem so to you right now. You’ll get there. Just don’t lose sight of that. (I was despondent and ready to die during the middle of my most acute phase of it — it changed my life.)

      • It certainly can motivate deep reflection, as for instance, what if there were no pills to pop, procedures to perform, etc., and your only hope was that it would resolve in time – all the while you’re writhing in pain.

        Yes, I can see how that amount of sharp and throbbing pain that has no clear end, cure or relief can cause serious reflection.

        Luckily, I am having what you call a good day. Very little discomfort at the moment. Yesterday was a bitch. Probably contributed by my Bday party, lots of alcohol and little rest. Got about 0 hours of sleep last night in 2-3 Hr bursts, and very weird and vivid dreams.

      • Oops, 10 hours of sleep. Far better than 0.

    • …And Dave T, in case you’re interested, the “winning over converts” bit is my rage. Nothing else. If you don’t like my style, cool.

      Fuck “converts.” Indeed, that’s what the vegans seek and OK, perhaps as someone liberated you see parallels, but they aren’t there. Check out my Food Porn category. I’m not making veggies an impardonable sin. Im just going over the top in pointing out the self immolement people go through for their meat loving.

      Get it?

      I do what I do, the way I do it in utter confidence. Either you like lots meat, fish, fowl, or you don’t. Either way is fine.

      But my money is on Darwin.

      • Oh no! Aggression!

        Man, just about nothing makes me more disgusted than hearing someone say “oh, you’re too aggressive!” Shut the hell up. That’s a weak, pansy, loser attitude.

      • Aaron Curl says:

        Dave T is clearly a super sensitive little 16 year old girl. He needs science in every post? Who the fuck is he? You aren’t allowed to blog without science backing up every word you say? What a fucking TOOL! Dave T needs to shut up and eat some meat!

      • A widdow aggwessive there, Aawon. Feewings wiw get hurted.

  42. Lute Nikoley says:

    OK, time for a MaCallan

  43. This post is kinda ironic for me, because most days I’m zero carb and my non-zero carb days happen in large part because of some of your other posts such as “Don’t Fear the Potato”. Yea, I know that wasn’t the title, but, hey, It would make a great Weird Al song based on (Don’t Fear) The Reaper by Blue Öyster Cult.

    • Yea, Walter,I guess I’m a bit ,eat & potatoes. Here’s my deal: meat. Add a green leafy salad, potato, one or the other or both.

      I even like other veggies, sometimes don’t take this too literally and it’s not a dietary guide. I’m railing against the atonement for meat, with veggies as some sort of…oh, whatever the Ctholics call that stupid bead shit that makes them look like the dumbest asses on Earth, knees bent.

      Fuck that too, while I’m at it.

      • I understand. There is no need for meat eaters to apologize. When Kurt Harris first called zero carb the Hezbollah of the low carb movement, I’d find myself saying “I’m zero carb, but I’m not fanatical about it. ”

        I came back to let you know that Don’s (Primal Wisdom) most recent post claims that eating veggies might get you laid more often.

        http://donmatesz.blogspot.com/2011/01/study-people-prefer-carotene-complexion.html

      • That study proves that people prefer a face Photoshopped to be more brightly lit than one Photoshopped to be more dimly lit.

        I’m all for evolutionary biology, but the study (and Matesz) are spinning a very, very long tale out of almost nothing.

      • Yeah, I agree. Don’s blog is great but this was too much of a stretch. Isn’t skin tone genetic? My wife has nice golden skin and I’m stuck with this crappy Irish stuff that burns and freckles. No amount of veggies is gonna change that.

  44. Great post, Richard! :)

  45. Glad you were able to use the article!!!

  46. one of my fav meals? > 1gk of Braised beef ribs. all that tasty crispy fat… anyway lately im taking a break following DR Kwasniewski ideas, so im limiting ( at least trying to) my meat consumption -drastically- and eating a shiton of egg yolks… and to my surprise it works , i was lean / muscular before but now is like a whole new level of leanness…. in my fkn best shape ever! , eating… “ice cream” ( 7 egg yolks, 350cc double cream- 50%- 3TBs sucrose, 2 TBS dark cocoa, 1 TBs whisky, vanilla extract, etc ) an just a tinny bit of meat on the side (by my standards) and im felling TOTALLY satiated (i still do my workouts and fast 23 hrs every day) so ladies, yolks > meat.

  47. Good stuff.

    Art DeVany is big on Antioxidants and a lot of the promoters have taken the idea from him I think – cook for colour etc.

  48. I don’t even refer to it as “meat” I refer to it as “animal flesh,” it’s more in your face that way.

    When people ask me how I’ve gotten in such good shape I say

    “Mostly I eat a lot of animal flesh.”

    • goof plan, rob.

      “What’s your secret?”

      “Well, when I’m not eating animal flesh I’m eating their fat and liver. Every now and then I choke down some spinach.” :)

      • ROFLMAO! I have to use these at work. I get that question all the time about what I’m eating.

      • Actually, since vegetarians and vegans like to use the word ‘consume’ in place of eat as a hot button, I think I’ll say that when I’m not consuming animal flesh and devouring their organs and fats, I might choke down some spinach.

        There, much better.

  49. I think a lot of Paleo / Primal / Whole Food bloggers are going to have to prepare for the inevitable.

    That the ‘experts’ that got it wrong all this time are going to turn around and pretend they came up with this stuff from their own research and completely ignore what they’ve learned from all the fantastic authors and bloggers out there.

  50. Richard

    I am interested to hear your views on vegetables and gut flora – according to Dr Ayers at http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.com/ a varied intake of vegetables would have a positive impact on GI health.

    I am sure you will appreciate his knowledge in the subject.

    • victor, sure, no doubt.

      Understand that I’m not ranting against vegetables, per se, but against paleos who emphasize them to apologize for our meat heavy diets and those who emphasize them over meat and fat.

    • Viktor,

      I have dealt with GI issues and severe intestinal dysbiosis (major C.Diff issue, plus candida, leaky gut due to 20 years of undiagnosed celiac disease). NOTHING healed my system until I started on the GAPS diet which lead me down a road that ended at a paleo lifestyle. Two years of trial and error has taught me that if I eat any amount of processed foods or grains, even ‘organic’ ones, I get sick. It only takes two or three days of eating non-meat (plus a few veggies) and my intestinal system is trashed. It takes me about a week to recover. If I switch to a veg only diet or even eat veg too frequently or in quantity I get sick very rapidly. I’ve tested this repeatedly.

      I’ve come to believe based on my personal experience combined with a lot of reading of other people’s research that most of the GI issues identified as gut flora problems (including leaky gut) actually STEM from the amount of veg matter we consume.

  51. Great Rant!

  52. Rob Beyerlein says:

    Well-fucking-done…there is no replacement for a good testosterone fueled rant, especially when pimp-slapping the hell out of someone who supposedly has similar views but turns all political correct bitch. Hope your shoulder improves, i messed up my AC joint about 5 years ago, nothing quite like having your clavicle feel like its gonna snap on a set of close-grips.

  53. Great post Richard. The best thing about vegetables is that they limit the amount of wheat and other grains you can eat. I propose that that is the only reason that anyone ever sees a benefit from eating more fruits and vegetables. Crack is better than cocaine too.

  54. Man… No wonder Lyle McDonald called you a fucktard. You really are.

    • Ha! Lyle Mcdonald calling anyone that is the pot calling the kettle black.

    • Yea, Aziz?

      You think you know something, eh? How about you go ask Lyle about his and my email exchange a couple of months back.

      Then go fuck yourself.

      • This is why I always read the comment threads here. So entertaining! Lyle McDonald, pshhhh.

      • Well,

        First, I am agreeing with Lyle’s insult, not the content of his debate :)

        Second, the whole point is that you act exactly like him. You are an extremist and everything that is not paleo is retarded.

        Vegetables are good for you and should be an essential part of a diet. Sugar? Yes, there is some, and it’s not as bad as you make it out to be.
        The idea that sugar rises insulin, which helps store more fat, etc is wrong. Just plain wrong. Protein raises insulin as much as carbs. But I guess, meat is Paleo, so it must not be the same.

        I think Paleo is the best general eating lifestyle there is. It is easy for people to get in it. It’s not overly complicated. And people get results with it. I myself eat Paleo. Love meat, eggs, fat, nuts.

        I am just saying that not because a thing is Paleo, that it is superior. The benefits of vegetables are greater than the LITTLE sugar it has in it. Vegetables are not just a bunch of vitamins and minerals, and fiber, the same as meat is not just protein, zinc, vitamins .Or else we could just take a multi-vitamin, protein shakes, some coconut oil, and feel the best we’ve felt.

      • Aziz:

        The problem is that you have no idea what you’re arguing against.

        http://freetheanimal.com/food-porn

        There’s 216 posts there and 99% of them contain vegetables, even potatoes (gasp). I’ve already stated about a half dozen times what the fundamental point of this rant is so I’m not going to bother to restate it again.

      • @Aziz – Seriously, where do you get the stupid idea:

        “The idea that sugar rises insulin, which helps store more fat, etc is wrong. Just plain wrong. Protein raises insulin as much as carbs. But I guess, meat is Paleo, so it must not be the same.”

        Talking of fucktards, tell that to a type 1 diabetic. (You know, people like me who ACTUALLY live with the consequences of insulin.) Before you go spouting off what you copied and pasted from another fucking blog, at least know what the fuck you are talking about. I mean, seriously!

        Sugar (I am guessing you are oversimplifying things here, so let’s change the word to carbohydrate) does indeed provoke an insulin response in a *normal* person. Insulin’s job is a growth harmone. That is indisputable. When you eat carbohydrates, your body choses either your liver or your pancreas to deal with it. In the case of the pancreas, it *SECRETES* insulin in response to the carbohydrate.

        In fact, a type 1, (remember dickwad, those who DON’T make insulin) will waste away because there is no insulin SECRETED to deal with the glucose, and as a result, keytones are produced at a cascading rate, known as KETOACIDOSIS.

        Because the body can’t use the ketones for energy fast enough, and insulin is not there to use the glucose, the body cannabalizes itself for energy. You go into coma, and your heart stops.

        Now, quick, go troll somewhere else, now that you have a little more information to make you even more dangerous!

      • gallier2 says:

        Vegetables are not paleo! Here I said it. Most of the known vegetables aren’t even neolithic, they are historical. Most of the ones we have today would be totally alien to even the romans.

        Broccoli: 2000 years old
        Cauliflower: 6th century AD introduction
        Artichoke: around roman time
        Kale: 4th century BC
        Spinach: 7th Century AD in China
        Endive: Roman empire
        Chicory: Officially invented in 1830 in Schaerbeck Belgium
        Brussel sprouts: Middle age
        Caper: ancient greece
        Kohlrabi: first mention 16th century AD
        Celeri: Egypt 7th century BC
        Rhubarb: 2700 BC in China
        etc you get the drift

        doesn’t mean they are good or bad for you, but that they were quite unimportant in our million year history.

        As for the protein stimulates insulin as much as carb garbage here a link were that allegation is thoroughly debunked

        http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/does-insulin-deserve-a-bad-reputation-the-low-carb-experts-weigh-in/9458

        I will only cite Todd Becker’s point 2

        First of all, everyone concedes that protein induces an insulin response. In Protein Power, the Eadeses put this at about 50% the insulin response as from an equivalent mass of carbohydrate. But James seems to go beyond that and suggest that proteins can be just as insulinogenic or more so. However all his evidence for it is based on studies using mixtures of protein and carbohydrate, where significant levels of carbohydrate are present. For example, he cites a study with a “low protein, high carbohydrate” meal (21 g protein, 125 g carbohydrate) and a “high protein, low carbohydrate” meal (75 grams each of protein and carbohydrate). The “high protein, low carbohydrate” meal was slightly more insulinogenic. But I don’t think anyone would consider 75 carbohydrate in a single meal as low carb! Similarly he cites studies where dairy (milk) was insulinogenic, attributing that to the protein. But the lactose sugar in dairy is significant! When I objected that there is too much carbohydrate in these protein containing meals to draw any conclusions, he retorted that in “normal” meals, nobody eats so little carbohydrate. I(Kind of circular I would say). And he asks: if carbohydrate is the cause, then why does the meal with MORE carbohydrate have a lower insulin response? The answer to this is that the insulin levels are similar within statistical variation, and that beyond a certain amount of carbohydrate, they just don’t increase any further. It could also have to do with the type of carbohydrate and protein present in the meals.

        Similarly, from this study of mixed protein and carbohydrate, it is hard to draw any firm conclusions about appetite and satiety, since there is so much carbohydrate in both meals. Also, the statistical error bars are overlapping between the two meals, indicating no real difference. Nobody denies that appetite is suppressed during the meal – duh! What else would you expect, when glucose has not had a chance to drop back below baseline! The real question is what happens after the meal and between meals, and once the body gets inundated with carbohydrate over many years, raising basal insulin levels and leading to insulin resistance and a hypoglycemic response. This can only be answered by studying how obese, insulin resistant or hypoglycemic individuals response to high carb meals. Normal individuals aren’t the ones with the problem! There is a major flaw in focusing on single meal studies. What James does not address at all is which type of meal composition over the long term is more likely to lead to the insulin resistant pattern — the high carbohydrate meal, or the high fat, moderate protein, low carb meal. Eaten month after month — not just a single meal.

        He also shows a comparison of the insulin producing effects of several different proteins in meals combining 51 grams protein with only 11 grams carbohydrate. Notice the insulin AUC scale, however. All of these protein meals produce less than 50 units of insulin (AUC = area under the curve). That’s far lower than any of the carbohydrate containing meals, which have AUC’s ranging from 1000 to 10,000 units!! (In the graph above, the higher carb meals had AUC around 5000 units). So who cares about these minor differences in insulin response, which are trivial and are dwarfed when more carbohydrate is added!

        James also denies that protein has any counteracting effect due to glucagon. He cites some studies showing that glucagon does not lead to lipolysis (fat burning). However, in those studies, the glucagon was infused intravenously with simultaneous administration of insulin and growth hormone! I don’t know about you, but that’s not a very fair study. In a real physiological situation, the glucagon levels increase towards the end of the protein meal, as insulin is headed down. This helps the body to free up glucose from glycogen and fatty acids from fat tissue, in order to prevent a hypoglycemic response. But with low carb dieting and fasting, glucagon can remain high while insulin gets very low. The experiments that James cites overlook the realistic physiological context under which glucagon operates.

      • I would like to call out Aziz for his charge that Richard’s consistent, rational, objective arguments are “extremist.” Such accusations are employed to divert one’s attention from a discussion of principles and fundamental ideas, and instead to say “Oh! This man thinks he’s right and who is to say what’s right and what’s wrong anyway? If he’s that consistent he must be biased and therefore an extremist!”

        Calling someone an extremist just betrays the fact that you have no concept of an objective truth, and you think that if someone is unwilling to compromise they must be crazy, biased, or corrupted by “the man.”

        Well, Aziz, let me clue you in. Objective truths are knowable by human reason, and that’s what Richard is shooting for here. (and what’s great about that is that I’m not sure if he has found the full answers, and he’d probably agree, and we’re both OK with that) If seeing someone stand proud and tall with his convictions offends you, then that says much more about the sorry state of your philosophy than it does his.

  55. Great post.

    Our health and wellness director at work always has a 9-a-day challenge in the dead of winter — should start any week now. Nine servings of fruits and vegetables for 30 days, at the time of year standard produce is expensive, tasteless, and travels the furthest distance across the planet.

    This guy also promotes chronic cardio, calorie restriction and new “low fat” vending machines where a 900 calorie bag of gumdrops is marked as a healthy choice. I had to take a picture of that machine; it is so outrageous it may make my head explode.

    • Just the thought that someone has the title of “health and wellness director” makes my head explode.

  56. About fructose, I would also add, a whole helluva lotta people can’t absorb it, which sounds great, right? I mean, if you can’t absorb it it isn’t fucking with your liver, storing fat and raising triglycerides. Instead it’s fucking with your guts, throwing your gut flora way out of whack which leads to all sorts of other problems, believe me. I can eat berries, maybe a quarter of an apple at a time. IBS is in most cases fructose malabsorption, and can be pretty much “cured” by following a low FODMAP diet. IOW, very little fruit, vegetables or grains. Mine partly came about due to gluten intolerance, and fortunately I can still eat greens and cruciferous veg because I LOVE some collard greens (cooked with salt pork).

    But meat? Fuck yeah! Meat has totally given me my health back. The other night I made a BRILLIANT pork belly, huge, boyfriend and I ate it for two days. And felt GREAT. I tried the low fat, lots of whole grains and fruit and veg and I kept getting sicker and sicker and fatter and fatter.

  57. I just read Zoe Harcombe’s book The Obesity Epidemic’ and at first I assumed she was a nutritionist and thought, OMG, a nutritionist with a brain?? WTF?? But actually she did math and economics at university. Her book is very good (very similar to Taubes) and she puts the boot into the health ‘institutions’ very well eg by asking them where they got their evidence for their ideas… she didn’t get an answer from any of them and some even admitted that they had no idea!

  58. I don’t understand how you guys think your meat-centric diet is something new and revolutionary. This is fucking America. We were built on beef. Ask me what my favorite food group was when I was a child and I’d say “McDonald’s.” I probably ate 50 complete cows before the time I was ten. Y’all are like fucking children, “No mommy, I don’t want to eat my veggies. See, this blog told me I didn’t have to!” Eat your goddamn vegetables, do your momma proud.

    • Hey, thesius, read the damn post, moron.

      We’re talking about the paleo diet, not the mcdonald’s diet, dumbshit. And if you don’t know the difference you’re too ignorant to comment.

      You’re dismissed.

      • How dare I affront the the mighty Paleo-Man??? Please forgive me your highness, I was just trying to crack wise on your super aggressive anti-vegetable post. But I guess humor is one of the first things lost (maybe it’s stored in fat cells) when you go paleo. I hope you can drag your knuckles off the floor to type me with another profanity-laced rejoinder. You know I was interested at first in the philosophy when the post came in on boingboing, but every thing I read on here is pretty mean spirited. So I’m gonna pass. I see you have your acolytes and your exclusionary attitude, so good for you. I guess I’m too ignorant to get it (only morons question something they read on the interweb, right?). I just go shut the fuck up and eat a salad and leave you to it.

      • Nice passive-aggressive stance there, theseus…. perhaps if you added a bit more meat and sauce to your diet, it would calm that shit down. LOL.
        Also, just for the record – knuckle dragging implies an gorrilla-ish figure, and if you check – they are foliovores. (Meaning they eat leaves and shit – so there you are, you hippy salad eatin, knuckle draggin freak!)

      • According to this guy, I should eat my own feces like a gorilla too. So you might be on to something. See, you know how to dig at someone with the good natured humor and sarcasm I’ve come to expect from better internet forums.

      • Get the fuck out of here, Theseus. You’ve already unequivocally and irrevocably portrayed yourself as an idiot. Now you’re trying to befriend Jason Sandeman and act like you wrote all of what you wrote in the name of some sort of vague concept of “internet humor and sarcasm.”

        Just scram, son, and don’t come back. You fucking dork.

        (Goddamn! Richard’s article has me all pumped up!)

      • Al Ciampa says:

        “According to this guy, I should eat my own feces like a gorilla too.”

        Only if you’re a vegan.

      • Theseus,

        Go whine into your french fries and strawberry shake, you fucking pussy.

      • Wow, you actually hit on two things I like. I put in at least 50 miles a week on a bike (I know not paleo but I love it) to be able to splurge on that shit. Go the rest of my life without a bagel, french fries, or milk shakes, no thanks. Y’all can leave behind firm bodies with immaculate dental records. I’m a going to use and abuse my shit till the reaper calls.

        BTW, you shouldn’t be calling anyone a pussy on the internet if you’re older than twelve.

      • Go ride your bike off a goddamned cliff.

      • Whoa, I wasn’t expecting to be called a dork! You done hurt my feelings. To be clear, I don’t want to be friends with Jason, VW, or any of you. He simply wrote something that smartly cut me down without coming across like an insufferable asshole, unlike Mr. Nikoley. I’m going to leave this site and never come back. I thought my original post was at least a little funny (I guess I should not have used the same aggressive tone as the original article) but clearly it wasn’t a good call on my part.

        I actually haven’t used shampoo for three weeks because of this guy’s article that was on boingboing (results are ok, my hair is little greasier than usual if I don’t rinse it often, I’m hoping it will balance out), so thanks for that idea, I wish him and everyone on the paleo diet continued success, if that’s what makes ‘em happy.

        And shit, my bike is so light I’ll probably go off a cliff and keep flying, but thanks for wishing me grievous bodily harm. P

      • Need to work on your humour a little there, hon. Didn’t come across as anything other than completely dickish.

        And… who goes to McDonald’s because they want some beef? Maybe it’s just me, but it’s not the first thing that springs to mind when I think of fast food in general. Ppl don’t eat Mc’s because they’re big beef fans, yeesh.

      • Al Ciampa says:

        Actually, Theseus, some/most/a part of us are still overweight with some loose skin due to years of metabolic dysfunction and obesity. Some of us will never be hardbodies without unnatural starvation and/or surgical intervention.

        This is about health. You’re really lost.

        Respectfully,

        -Al

  59. Well, since you used the word revolutionary, and when America was built, let’s look at a revolutionary soldier’s typical meal. Bread made of flour and water, salted pork or beef, and beans. No vegetables in that list, unless you count beans, which I don’t.

    • Right. None of the colonists and early Americans had farms or participated in the act of a growing vegetables. But fuck them and their civilized agrarian philosophy.

      • The Garden of Valley Forge, where soldiers gorged themselves on fresh garden vegetables all winter long, as they civily discussed politics with the civil British?

      • Vegetables and fruit are highly seasonal, especially in the part of the country where the early colonists settled. They did not have modern varieties of the species which have been developed to have a longer shelf life. No fridges or freezers either, no Bird’s-Eye. No trucks hauling produce from Mexico.

    • Al Ciampa says:

      Bad example, Paul.

      Regardless of what greater society is doing, the military has never been known for providing healthy sustenance. Even today.

      -Al

      • Yes, this country was built on bad nutritional examples, not the horn of plenty theseus is imagining.

  60. Aaron Curl says:

    A year ago when I first started eating paleo I was eating every vegetable I could get my hands on. A year later the only vegetables I eat are sauerkraut, cucumbers, cauliflower and broccoli. My diet went from 50% veggies to about 10-20%. I didn’t purposely stop eating veggies…it just happened naturally. My body told me to eat more meat so I listened.

  61. Someone needs a hug…

  62. Great post!
    Reminds me of a family reunion I went to a few years back here in Alberta (Beef Country). One cousin from Vancouver – a skinny fat, vegetarian, aerobics instructor sits down with a plate full of salad. Well-muscled cousin from the farm sits down across from skinny fat. Farm cousin’s plate is full of……meat. He looks at skinny fat’s plate and says, in a menacing tone, “my food eats your food.” Skinny Fat remains completely silent and totally fucking pathetic. Vegetables are fine, but they should know their place.

    Keep up the fantastic work, Richard. Your blog is by far the best in the paleosphere.

  63. Another vote here for listening to your own body. Our weather in Florida in the winter is not cold in relation to you Northerners, but it is cold to me – and the LAST thing my body wants to eat right now is a frackin’ salad!
    I’m with you – a little Swiss chard sauted in bacon grease scooted over to the side of a plate filled 85% by a nice lamb shoulder chop suits me just fine.

  64. Justin S says:

    Long time lurker. First time poster. Best blog yet. GO MEAT!

  65. LOL

  66. J J Jason says:

    I’m not sure if it’s actually been proven that eating a lot of fruit causes fat gain. If you combine it with the usual diet, then yeah, higher chance of that happening. Eating honey has been researched though. No fat gain with whatever experimental conditions were used.

    Here’s a reason not to eat too many fruit and veges for the anti-oxidants. They may not be all that great when it comes to cancer. Cancers thrive without oxygen.

    • “Eating honey has been researched though. No fat gain with whatever experimental conditions were used”

      Are you claiming that……… wait. What the hell are you claiming (without providing any proof, by the way), exactly?

  67. slowness says:

    “…my shoulder hurts.”
    Richard,
    did you get checked for active “trigger points”?
    a lot of times they are the culprits…

  68. Flying Burrito says:

    F*ckin’ A, Richard, free your MANimal!

  69. Bill Strahan says:

    Best thing to say to someone who tells you they’re vegan is to ask if they do it for spiritual reasons. If they say yes, nod knowingly while saying “ah, so you hate plants. Me too.”.

    About the time they start to recover say “But I hate animals even more, so my beliefs result in my eating more meat.”

    Vegans concentrate the stupid of vegetables into human form.

    None of this applies to sweet potato cooked in coconut oil. THAT is a gift from God. :)

  70. Great post. After reading this and the latest one over at gnolls.org, I’ve decided that most of my meals from this point forward will be simply a big piece of grass-fed red meat, a sunny-side-up egg on top with the yolk used for sauce, and a scattering of some spinach or cruciferous vegetables around the perimeter if I have any at the time or feel like cooking them.

    • I’m glad we could inspire you!

      I’ve found that my body is very good at telling me when I need to eat vegetables. I’ll suddenly think “You know what would go well with this, some mixed greens” or “Cabbage. I haven’t had cabbage in a while”, and there you go.

      I’m convinced that our bodies have some very deep instincts for what they need, once we get past the junk cravings.

  71. All hail the Yuppy gangsta

    The compulsive tossing of F bombs is another symptom pointing out why this will always be a 2nd tier site

    Countdown to this comment being deleted…….

    • Well see, sverlyn, I’m just naive enough that I figure I’ll be satisfied with whatever success I have in the context of being who I really am.

      It’s quite liberating to never have to figure out how to tell a better lie, to get more traffic, in the pursuit of 1st tier as the primary goal rather than writing for my own pleasure and for those who dig what I toss against the wall.

    • Richard is not afraid to keep idiotic comments maybe you would delete comments if you had your own blog.

  72. My rule of thumb is that I will only fuck a vegetable if it buys me dinner first. A hot, thick ribeye preferably.

  73. Great post, Richard. I hope your shoulder feels better soon.

  74. Jeremy Hopkins says:

    You just made my Day Richard, I miss these kind of posts. Keep being awesome.

  75. on a serious note:

    that Zoe Harcombre commentary wasn’t interesting or informative. She’s a contrarian yeah yeah but she attacks vegetables more than she defends fat. WTF? that’s stupid: it’s the lipid theory of heart disease and obesity that needs to be demolished and discredited – not the health benefits of vegetables.

    She wrote:
    “The fact is, we can’t digest fibre. How can something we can’t even digest be so important to us, nutritionally?”

    that’s a dumb thing to say because fibre is useful *for* digestion. You don’t need it year round – it wasn’t available during winter in pre-civilization days anyway – but your intestinal flora likes it.

    Unless you’re an inuit you’re not an inuit so eating vegetables and fruits during summer and fall is a good idea (and it could be good for the inuit too, we just don’t know because it hasn’t been studied). Any tribe/group/race that has evolved with winter is adapted to eat lots of meat and fish but that doesn’t mean they don’t benefit from other types of food. Adaptation doesn’t mean perfect adaptation.

    • It’s a sound comment she made. it’s not important nutritionally it just mostly provides roughage.

  76. WOW, 171 comments!
    I love this blog

  77. Scott Tredennick says:

    ahh this post makes me so happy, now vegetables can go back to doing what they do best, taking up space to avoid overfeeding, no longer do they have to be a over-glorified, tasteless nuisance.

  78. Korwyn, I’m glad you mentioned the GAPS diet. I never heard of it before, but it looks like it could really help me with my GI issues. I have tons of food sensitivities, and it’s really getting on my nerves! The intro diet might be the ticket for me. I’ve been paleo for nearly five months now, and it was a lot of fun at first, but then I discovered that I had to eliminate sweet potatoes! That just ain’t right, I tell ya. Perhaps some sidework on the GI stuff will make paleo more fun again.
    On the topic of veggies, I was in the store today buying groceries and was completely uninspired to buy any vegetables besides the kale I planned to have with salmon or lamb. I felt like I SHOULD buy something else, though, so I finally grabbed some bok choy, which I haven’t eaten in ages. Perhaps this is a natural progression on the paleo diet. Next time I won’t force myself to buy anything unless I really want it. I generally shop for food by inspiration alone since I believe that’s my body’s way of telling me what I need, but this time it took me into very unfamiliar territory, and I didn’t listen. I’m glad this blog was here to validate my body’s inherent wisdom and check my ego.

    • I think Don is missing the spirit, sport, and the Forrest throught the trees a bit, there. His commenters seem to be pointing that out. Some of them.

      It’s not that veggies are aweful, and I eat a fair share. But they are nothing compared to animal products nutritionally, and again, why use them to apologize for ones carnivore ways?

  79. Dammit, this was SO funny… I can’t say I’m gonna drop my veggies/fruit and only eat meat, after all I do enjoy eating green stuff, but you bring a good point around. As they say, if you meet a Buddha, kill the Buddha.

    • Now that is a principle worth remembering. It is important to consider that even followers of the Budha seem to enjoy this saying. Imagine if American Christians had a saying that idd you meet the Christ, kill him.

      What it meant of course is a clever and so powerful way of differentiating the literal from the nonetheless meaningful.

  80. Richard, I can’t believe it’s taken you *this * long to find Zoe Harcombe. I put you together *months* ago on a list of 10 people who could solve world obesity:
    http://www.fatfiction.co.uk/solving-obesity/10-people-who-can-solve-the-obesity-crisis/
    Obviously, you’ll need to tone down that swearing for daytime TV. Or just appear after the watershed ;)

  81. Brigitte Bowling says:

    LOL Richard, you remind me of my husband only he is less polite and eats less vegetables ……..I am still laughing ……great post!!!!

  82. Dino Babe says:

    Hahahahaaa….My boyfriend was reading over my shoulder earlier today while I was reading Mark’s takedown of Homeopathy, and exclaimed that Mark ain’t scared to say he thinks. Of course I quickly opened freetheanimal…….. lo and behold, Richard at his finest! LMAO.

  83. That article neatly and accurately summarizes what I’ve been trying to tell a handful of close friends (who will actually listen) for the last 18 months. Thank you!

  84. peterlepaysan says:

    Yee ha! A post that resonates with the recent iconoclastic past.

    Welcome back.

    Cheers ( I am imbibing a particularly fine blended scotch that would easily be
    confused with some single malts.)

    Nice to hear the old voice again.

  85. I’m surprised nobody’s suggested that eating too much meat may be making you rabid.

    It’s so entertaining, though. ;-)

    PJ

    • Could be true, JP. I ate 4 slices of bacon, a 4 egg omelet with some fresh salsa and a couplA tbsp of potato 9 hours ago, nothing since and I’m getting rabid for a second meal of the day.

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