“The Real Health Debate:” Live; Nikoley vs. Johnstone

Time to talk smack

Well, the debate I blogged about earlier is finally on. It's a live event that will take place one week from today, Thursday, April 14, 2011 at 18:00 PST. It's being hosted by Steven Prussak of Raw Vegan Radio, and after doing a bit of checking around, I'm convinced Steve is honorable, cares, is as professionally objective as is reasonable to be (we're all biased), and really wants to put on a good and informative show for meaties and veggies alike.

card

Here's where you sign up in order to listen live.

If for some reason you can't listen live or should otherwise want a recording and transcript, that's available here.

OK, so it may not escape your notice that Harley's mean look pretty much fills up the whole space whereas, mine looks a little diminutive by comparison. Perhaps Steve's designer is a vegan. So let's set the record straight. That photo of me is two years old, now. Here's what Harley actually looks like now, clips from recent videos.

Modern Durianrider
Modern Durianrider

There's more here at Julianne's nutritional analysis of his diet. Additionally, I was curious to look into the appearance of the raw fruit vegan Harley subscribes to, Doug Graham, a chiropractor if I'm not mistaken. It's hard to know when photos on the net were actually taken so the best way is to take it from a video of some event that has a date attached to it. So here's Doug Graham in 2005 on the left, and four years later, 2009, on the right. A recent workout video calls him "57 years young." So, to the left he'd be 51 and to the right, 55.

Doug Graham
Doug Graham

I turned 50 just over 2 months ago and this is me from July and August this last summer. I sure hope I don't look like that in five years.

MovNat 2010
MovNat 2010
Camping 2010
Camping 2010

Let's predict what Durianrider looks like by the time he's 50. I don't think he can afford for his neck to get any scrawnier, given what he appears to have lost already. At any rate, this debate is going to be pretty easy if he comes equipped with asinine bullshit like this below, (and that he's probably too ignorant to understand the inanity of in the first place).

Update: While normally I wouldn't put up a link to a website ranked 1.3 millionth in the world where I'm ranked 87 thousandth in the world and 36K in the US, what the hell? So here's Harley's post about the debate.

The only person from the low carb, high fat camp that had the guts to do a debate with me was Richard Nokely. Mark Sisson, Sean Croxton, David Wolfe, Daniel Vitalis and Sally Fallon all said ‘No way!’. I dont blame em either!

Occam's Razor alert. The explanation with the fewest assumptions is usually the correct one. Since all the above have been in debates before, have put themselves out there, it seems dubious to assume they're afraid of Durianrider. More likely, they simply don't consider it worthy of their time.

I, on the other hand, simply wish to give the guy with a puny following and invisible blog a sporting leg up. It's very charitable of me.

I get the sense that Harley somehow thinks that by debating me he's getting all the others by proxy. Well, I speak for myself, I speak for the unassailable science, I speak for my own results after damaging my metabolism for 47 years and losing 60+ pounds, and I speak to the impressive results other similarly situated folks have attained.

And speaking of Sisson, here's how Paleo leaning and getting strong goes without coming out the other end with abs, but otherwise, a body that looks like an emaciated teenage girl. Plenty more examples here.

Update 2: Any former 30 Bananas a Day adherents who had a bad experience with the raw fruit diet, or former raw vegans in general who wish to relate their experiences to me, please feel free to contact me in email, which is on the About page. I won't use your last name unless you explicitly give permission to do so.

By the way, please do spread the word about the debate on Twitter, Facebook and even in the comment sections of other health and fitness websites.

Comments

  1. I had to LOL when I saw that photo earlier today of Johnstone lookin’ all tuff. Where did they get that? And how’d they get his scrawny lil’ neck to POP like that? Did they feed him a rib-eye? Every night for a month? Questions: I have them.

    I’ll be listening with interest.

    • I wish I could do ‘body swaps’ with people just for a month even. Give em an insight to what this lifestyle can have you feeling/looking like. What I find amusing is they say ‘fruit will make you fat cos of the fructose’ yet then they say ‘Harley is too thin from eating a fruit based diet!’. Then they say ‘fine you can be a competitive runner/cyclist but you also need to be a competitive bodybuilder too!’ lol! Funniest thing is that 99% of them have a fat gut and couldnt even run a 400 under 80 seconds. Nice people though. ;)

      • Everyone has abdominal muscles, get lean enough or skinny enough and you’ll see them. This really can’t be one of your main markers of health.

        I was a vegan for more than a decade. It’s funny how reflecting on that period I can now see how emaciated my circle of vegan friends were. Really it is like any other eating disorder in that regard, one simply lacks the ability to be objective. Did you see the images from that banana retreat. It looked like there was a famine going on.

        At the Crossfit gym I operate you’ll see muscular, lean and strong athletes. They didn’t all walk in the door that way, but through a primal/paleo diet and lifestyle they have achieved the fat loss they had found impossible on a high carb diet. There are many other cases of reduced blood pressure, and elimination of Type 2 diabetes (caused by macronutrient ratios like those advocated by Durian).
        Charlatans like Durian piss me off. We’ll all be subsidizing this ass clown’s medical care when his pancreas collapses.

      • Well at least people can see my face, see what I eat each day, hang out with me for free, see my blood tests up on youtube etc. I dont know anyone that is more transparent in the health and fitness industry and has my profile.

        Im not saying Im more holier than thou’ but Im certainly being the change I want to see.

        Can anyone show me a paleo/primal/low card guru that is CLINICALLY reversing type 2 diabetes? I can show you a low fat, high carb vegan one: Dr Barnard at http://www.pcrm.org

        Good to know he is there when your pancreas blows out from your insulin resistant creating diet.
        http://durianrider.org/2011/04/12/robb-wolf-got-a-gut-how-come-the-paleo-bloggersauthors-are-chubby/

      • A Eilola says:

        http://robbwolf.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/IMG_0789-399×670.jpg

        Wow, what a chubby!

        Has clinically reversed thousands of patients with D2. Many are completely off the meds.

        Dr. Bernstein has lived 64 years with a type I diabetes, just look at how healthy he looks at an age when most D1 patients are dead, 76:

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VaNJO7KMgg

        http://www.diabetes-book.com/

      • Can you or Neal Bernard show independant verification from outside the PCRM echo chamber?

        Also, why the constant dishonesty? (lying by omission, plain lying, making stuff up etc.) Richard admits he is on an ongoing diet and it shows. He is on the tubby side of things, but clearly he is loosing weight while gaining muscle. He Looks better and better. Thats the story of Jimmi Moore too. project not over, but results speak for themselves. You treat them like they were at the end of their long journey from lard to hard.

        You are well aware that most crossfitness athletes are Paleo eaters. Perhaps they are too busy working out and eating good foods to blog and make videos of themself with no shirt on. I know atleast one raw paleo kid whom you apparently forgot about who answered you on youtube with a video. It went down something like this.

        DR: “so where are the fit raw paleo people lol”
        Kid; “Lulz Im only 19 but bulky and ripped to shreds you muppet and I eat nothing but raw meat” (puts up video with evidence, and LO and behold. That kid looked good!)
        DR;”…”
        Kid;”?”
        DR; “BAN USER”

        But also Paleo instructors like Terry Shanahan make videos. They represent the paleo eaters who are not on a diet and into sports for the sake of sports. But for some odd reasons you keep targeting and singling out people who are in the process of loosing weight and pretend like the whole crossfit community simply isnt there or overweight which is quite a laugh to say the least.

        Folk’s dont be normal weight around Durianriders.

        I do applaud you for your ferocious attacks on people who sell BS supplements tho. Good man.

      • addendum:

        Raw paleo kid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1FQJaZwwUk

        Terry Shanahan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2PMP59LD1A (picked him entirely at random from many many paleo instructors/folks who makek videos)

      • Paul Verizzo says:

        “Lard to hard….” Major LOL, thanks, I’m gonna use that.

        I don’t much doubt that this 811 raw vegan diet can result in a rapid loss of fat to a low BF percentage. After all, your body is screaming for the nutrients found in fat during that transition until it runs dangerously low at which point it copes. Ditto for muscle, if you had it to begin with.

        If only BF and weight are the criteria, I’ll give the nod to the fruit(cakes) in the shorter haul. But in the long run (many decades), in overall health (dental, strength, diabetes, etc.) they will, and do, drop out of the race.

      • I think the “chubby gut” argument is total BS anyway. We are dealing with modern aesthetics here. Nowadays you want to show off your 6 pack, ok, but it is natural for our bodies to want to store some fat for times of famine. That is how we are built.

        If you were actually out living “off the land” so to speak, not knowing where your next meal will come from you would want those fat stores and even in worst case scenario your muscle to cannibalize to survive.

        Especially women who’s bodies need to store fat especially in the hip and buttocks incase of pregnancy and nursing. I really can’t understand how a woman can thrive on a fruit diet. Your body would be constantly screaming out for fat and I am almost positive being a woman myself there is a lot of closet bingeing going on in the 30 BAD community.

        So in a survive and thrive environment the Paleo’s, even with fat guts have you beat hands down.

        I can understand your feelings about animals, and factory farming is disgusting, but why such an extreme form of veganism? Have you ever tried to experiment a little by adding some cheese or eggs obtained from ethical farmers? Why don’t you experiment with you diet a little? Then you can speak from a platform of authority.

      • “What I find amusing is they say ‘fruit will make you fat cos of the fructose’ yet then they say ‘Harley is too thin from eating a fruit based diet!’.”

        That’s why we have the term “Skinny Fat.” It’s when the body practically eats it’s own muscle tissue due to poor nutrition combined with chronic endurance training. Look it up.

        Also, come to my Crossfit box and watch some paleo-eaters run sub 80 sec. 400s…. In between bouts of Squat Cleans and Handstand Pushups.

      • My biggest problem with the whole video wasn’t the mocking tone or ignoring the fact that paleo has been objectively proven to help so many people. My biggest problem was the bit about how you equate the evolution of plant eating animals and their individual digestive systems to the the evolution of humans and their omnivorous digestive system. You said something along the lines of “if the animals we eat can survive on only plants, then so can humans”(admittedly paraphrased, but I honestly don’t want to sit through that again). Not only does this show your lack of understanding of basic biology and physiology, it buts a big stamp on the fact that you willfully ignore anything that can and does disprove your neo-religious vegan beliefs. Not to mention that for someone who says how fit they are constantly, you were pretty winded after a 20 yard “sprint” for a stupid kangaroo.

      • Eating a lot of easily digestible carbs is obviously not a sufficient condition for gaining weight, but it certainly is a necessary condition for most people.

        For you personally, I’d think you should talk to Mark Sisson about chronic cardio. He has a lot of experience in that area and would probably agree that you are putting a lot of miles on your body and you’re probably going to break down before you get fat.

      • Duriansterror says:

        You’re delusional, Rider.
        Can’t wait to hear you get wiped OUT in this ‘debate’.
        Hope you’re making preparations, you’re about to be publically outed as the incoherant mess that you are. And to think you did it voluntarily!
        Yay!!!

      • TandooriChicken says:

        There’s a lot more to fructose than losing or gaining weight. Fructose is worse than alcohol for your liver. Look up Dr. Lustig’s lecture on YT and then look me in the eye and tell me your 30 bananas a day won’t back up your bile duct in 30 years.

      • To be fair, unless he has very recently changed his position, Dr. Lustig does not believe that the fructose in fruit is dangerous or unhealthy, though of course he would not endorse anything akin to Harley’s diet.

      • TandooriChicken says:

        It’s not the fructose in this or that which is inherently unhealthy, but the quantities consumed. Whether it comes from sugar, HFCS, or gratuitous quantities of fruit, it’s simply not organ-friendly in excess. That’s what I got out of Dr. Lustig’s lecture.

      • Tandori

        Not sure why in an evolutionary psychology context, but humans seem particularly susceptible to the more is better fallacy, unlike other animals.

      • With all do “respect” the pictures of you and all you have followers I’ve seen look like what durians smell like, SHIT.There where concentration camp survivors with better physiques. I promise you I don’t have a fat gut and I’m more the willing to put my PT scores up against any of your groupies.Now I’m of to slaughter something fo dinner.Remmber meat may be murder but it’s damn tasty!

      • Isn’t it though? I just finished up my crock pot TriTip roast with a shit load of carrots, onions, celery and a fingerling potato or 2. Good God was it tasty. And It’ll be just as good for lunch tomorrow!

    • The photo from his 30bananasaday website. He stood before the camera with arms crossed and put his fists behind his biceps to make his arms look bigger, and he flared his neck out as you are seeing. I commented on these antics on one of his youtube videos and he banned me.

  2. This guy can’t be for real. I definitely agree with him on one point – I do have to “laugh at the craziness of the world sometimes.” Problem is, I’m laughing at him. Wowww.

  3. Yeah… It’s not subliminal when it’s obvious.

    • More like, obliminal. And funny as hell for anyone who has seen his videos.

  4. The Warning says:

    Someone should introduce Doug Graham to Art Devany, who is 15 years Graham’s senior, but would hand him his butt any day of the week.

  5. Kendra says:

    That video is so funny. Wish I was there to give the poor fellow some bone marrow and animal fat so his atrophied brain would work properly. Guess it would take years to undo the brain damage. My 10 yo son walked in and said if the guy wants to catch a kangaroo why doesn’t he just sharpen a stick and spear him?

    I really can’t wait to hear the debate but it seems a little unfair when debating those without fully functioning brains. Oh, and oh my, you look like what I think a man should. Now off to make my first grass-fed beef heart from a local farmer…or maybe we will eat it raw.

    • He did actually acknowledge it would take a weapon, implying it’s not natural.

      That’s the source of the inanity. But I’m not going to give away the answer, which incidentally annihilates that whole line of thinking.

      It’s a simple answer.

      • Marten says:

        An otter will use rocks as a tool to smash open shellfish, so going by durianriders theory, shellfish are not a natural food source for otters??

        What a douche that man is!

      • TandooriChicken says:

        There’s a natural case for dairy too. Ants farm aphids for their honeydew. The complexity of nature is lost on the simple-minded.

      • Marten says:

        Exactly! and the ants protect their aphids from killer ladybirds, just as we would protect our livestock from predtors such as foxes, wolves or big cats.

      • Amanda Thomas-Harris says:

        Chimpanzee’s too, they fish for termites with sticks…

      • He couldn’t possibly be that stupid. Could he?

        I mean, an argument from naturality coming from a guy riding a bike.

    • Mmmm…. I love beef heart. You’ve got to cook it slowly though otherwise it becomes tough enough to patch a tire with.

  6. OMG – is that video for real????????

  7. They also managed to fuck up the aspect ratio of your photo.

    Surely just coincidence.

    Aspect ratios are very complicated.

  8. Garth Whelan says:

    Is it just me or are the kangaroos pretty docile? Like you could walk up to one and beat it to death.

  9. Thanks for the LuLz. I was rooting for one of the Kangaroos to punch him in the face.

    Oh, the debate is going to be a must listen even. Kudos.

  10. Carlos says:

    Dude! I know, the light, the camera, whatever, but he needs to protect his calcium, get some vit.K2, or brush his teeth, or, look at that fang… he’s actually a meat eater! http://i.imgur.com/2f1rd.jpg

    • Carlos says:

      It just occurred to me, the fang looks long because the front teeth are all eroded.

      • Spanky_McMcMc says:

        I’d agree they look eroded. There’s is nothing really healthy looking about the bunch of them.

      • Australians come from the worst of the worst british people, what do you expect?

      • James that comment not warranted.

      • Cheese says:

        Who cares, it’s true — history is history even when it’s not so nice.

      • James, Most Australians are smart enough to find your country on a map unlike the majority of your population. So the worst British people are still a lot smarter then you. Don’t start insulting us because we have one idiot like Harley. im 100% sure your country has more than its fair share of tools.

      • To an impartial outsider such as me, this looks like a cripple fight. ;)

      • Yeah, I know, I’ll see your jingoistic idiocy and raise you!

      • Now thats not true I can find australia on a map it’s right next to hungry and germany.I love sound of music by the way :)

      • Yes we are worst of the worst British. I’m personally so ordinary you’ll often find me on blogs making disparaging comments about other nationalities.

        Let’s face it, we can’t hide from the truth. All the British immigrants were worst of the worst. No doubt about it. And all the immigrants from Ireland, they were also worst of the worst British. Same with the immigrants from other parts of Europe, Middle East and Asia. Worst of the worst British again. And let’s not forget anyone who immigrates to Australia from the US. They are also worst of the worst British.

        James and Cheese, you have the brain of a vegan!

      • LOL. I’m the immigrant from Europe.

      • Lol… I get totally hurt by Australian insults. Truly. Sitting here in the sunshine, with the fresh air and the open space, the amazing beaches and temperate paradise, I get really upset when someone sitting in a cold polluted hellhole says something dumb about shit that happened 200 years ago in a place I am also from.

  11. Richard, you should know better than to violate the single sacred rule of debate: Unless you also come from a British commonwealth, never debate a guy with an Australian accent.

    Which reminds me: ["You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders—the most famous of which is never get involved in a land war in Asia—but only slightly less well-known is this: Never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line!"]

    (Oh, and, dude’s teeth are all sickly and jacked. Needs to read a little Dr. Price.)

    • LOL, Rick. You need to be coming up with obscure references for Dennis Miller.

    • And by the way, if he thinks he’s gonna get a pass by using the word ‘mate’ in every sentence, he has another think coming.

    • As an American who has spent 15 years living in Europe, I’m a huge fan of Aussies.

      I’ve taken a lot of shit from a lot of nationalities, but the very least from Australians.

      This guy is an idiot, but it has nothing to do with his accent or country of origin.

      • I agree Sean. Aussies and NZers are uniformly the most naturally nice and friendly people I have come across in global travels.

        Back in the 80s when I would take a lot of leave when ships I was on would be in the Philippines, I always stayed at “Swagman” hotels, there were a few of them, run by Aussie expats.

      • Al Ciampa says:

        I’ve got two issues with this post, but even those are like assholes, so take it with a grain of salt.

        1. The least important:

        “Aussies and NZers are uniformly the most naturally nice and friendly people I have come across in global travels”.

        Unless you’re a female in a relationship with a male – hey, my experience! – hammer away at me.

        2. By explaining yourself, especially on your own blog, you’re giving them some weight. We know the real deal; we know how propaganda works; and we know how the debate will go. No need for the comparison photos, time-lines, and explanations.

        We’re behind you brother; concentrate on the task at hand. I’m looking forward to it.

        -Al

  12. Lauren R says:

    Gosh his teeth are terrible…all that fruit sugar! I agree a sharp stick or a nice hard stick to whack the roo…if you want him for dinner.

  13. Yeah, where did that neck come from in that photo? Or perhaps more appropriately, where did it go in the later photos? Atrophy due to lack of protein and totally wonked out hormonal levels?

    I’m 43 and he looks like a scrawny kid compared to me. Sheesh. Go raw vegan…because you want to look like you never made it through puberty, right? Wrong!

    Have fun with the debate.. And then go lift something heavy just because you can.

    FWIW, look at http://www.realfoodrealfit.com/2011/03/log-0313-0319.html and scroll down to see what a pound and a half of meat a day did for me. Yes, tooting my own horn, but when what you’re doing works it’s hard not to.

  14. jordan says:

    I have my final Korean language exam Thursday at 2pm, as well as a ten page paper due before noon the same day

    this’ll be the perfect thing to unwind to, thanks

  15. I’ll be keen to see whether the debate is a debate. Wagers on whether they can have a rational discussion?

  16. Adrian says:

    Please, please, please don’t think all us aussies think like this guy!

    What a tool. He is what we call a bogan. And a dangerous one at that.

  17. The debate looks to be interesting, sure. But what I really want to say is

    that wet t-shirt photo?? RAWR!!!

  18. “You just have to laugh at the craziness in the world sometimes.”

    Well, I guess I can always find one thing to agree on with just about anyone.

    In these videos, Chek talks about how plants “eat” smaller living things. At 9:50 in part 2 he says “It’s been shown by cold, hard research that plants are carnivorous as hell…. So if you’re a vegetarian, you’re eating little animals, they’re just being fed to you in a liquid form.”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84otsNRkbDg

    I hope you don’t mind the link, Richard.

  19. Hi Richard,
    Thanks for the link
    Small correction – name is spelled Julianne (the female version)

    • Ok, go all French on me.

      • D’accord!

        Looking forward to the debate.

        @Chuck – yes no “healthy” whole grains, no “high fiber, protein rich” legumes, no chemically extracted veggie oils high in omega 6, no processed foods. Looks like there is more to agree on than disagree.

  20. interesting how any health debate can be had without healthy whole grains in either debaters daily menu.

  21. what, neither of you eat whole grains in an average day? how can this be a health debate?

  22. Stabby says:

    DR’s facial expression in the left picture of the first set looks strikingly familiar to what you’ll expect with Charlie Sheen these days. Delusions of grandeur, both of them.

  23. This will certainly be an interesting event, but I’m not sure what it will accomplish. You can’t really debate with people who ignore science. Usually the goal of a debate is to persuade people, but vegans can’t be reasoned with. They’re true believers.

    The only thing that convinces them that veganism doesn’t work, is the evidence presented by their own decrepit bodies.

    • David, I used to be a fundamentalist Baptist, born again divinity school student.

      This is, hence, an outreach.

      • Richard will it be a proper debate? The health debate with Kevin Gianni had most of the speakers talking separately so no real debate.

      • This debate will unfortunately fail. All vegans will say Bananaman won, all meat eaters will say Richard won. It will only convince people who are on the fence — and I doubt many of them will even watch.

      • Ruben, you forgot to add that life is short, you’re born and you die, it’s pointless and why even bother to get out of bed. :)

      • Sorry for leaving that out, I took that as a given. ;)

        But seriously: doing things because you want to is reason enough. Most of my endeavours aren’t in the least bit effective. But they are fun, which is more important. :)

      • jose marti says:

        Just for some reference. I worked and lived in Uganda for four years. Ugandans consume 243kr of bananas and plantain per year, the highest in the world. They eat the same if not more kg of meat per year. I did not see overweight people in the country side but they were plagued by infectious diseases. And yet when they move to an urban place in no time the syntomps of metabolic syndrome appear, high blood sugar,diabetes and the ubiquitous fat belly in men , large hips in women.

      • Its interesting to see the comments about the debate on his facebook page

        https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=116170325128596&id=608626426

        About Richard:
        They’re gonna have to scrape him off the floor…

        pay attention to what people say on his site…he has an article about u and doug already…prepare for the negatives he has up his sleeve

        and also we want to see this with shirts off to compare physically :*)

      • That FB link doesn’t seem to work, D.

      • Hmm. I just clicked it and it worked for me and I am not “friends” with him. Maybe he has you blocked, lol…

        If anyone wants to see his wall just search for Durianrider Vegano.

        I also noticed in his about section :

        Vegan evangelist that is known to eat up to 70 bananas in a day and cycle up to 515km in a day…
        ….once rode 515km solo on sultanas and weeds from the side of the highway.

      • Now it’s working. Funny stuff.

      • “f’RAW’king awesome!!”

        Vegan or not, I can’t believe someone really wrote that…

      • That’s the reason behind this, Sue.

    • David,

      The point of public debate is never to convert your debate opponent. That simply is not going to happen. But in any debate your audience roughly consists of three groups:

      1. 1/3 that is going to love you no matter what you say
      2. 1/3 that is going to hate you no matter what you say
      3. 1/3 that is open to being convinced by the evidence one way or another

      It is the third group you are after. That is one reason I used to love the hot and heavy debates (on nearly every topic under the sun) that occurred on several of the yahoo groups I belonged to back before blogging really took off. I knew my antagonist wasn’t going to see it my way, but he/she provided a welcome foil by which the issues could really be hashed out.

      And trust me, as I have learned over the years, thinking people who lurk (which is 99% of everyone’s readership), do follow and think and make changes. Not necessarily immediately, but it does happen, more often than you might think, and with people whom you would have never thought would change. Never be fooled by those who comment, they represent a very tiny segment of any given readership.

      And always embrace controversy, because when things are controversial people take notice. And when people take notice you can address the issue. That is all we can ask for. Time will take care of everything else.

      • Like Michael, I’m a very old hand at Internet debate. I cur my teeth on Compuserve forums around ’93 and by ’94 was firmly entrenched in USENET for literally thousands of pages worth over the ensuing years.

        Over those years I saw many minds evolve over time. It’s rarely a religious-syled conversion.

  24. If the vegan guy loses the debate he should have to eat the internal organs of a wildebeest live on video cam.

  25. Isn’t Gabriel Cousens some kind of raw food vegan as well? He looks like the walking dead.

    I never liked that photo of you Richard. And the new one you put up, when you first look at it, your shirt is billowing out a bit and I did a double take because it looked like fat rolls for a quick second. The 2 pics in this post are way better, esp the Mov Nat one.

    Just sayin.

    • Then God forgive my wretched soul for ever daring to put up a pic of myself in a shirt.

      You know what, I don’t give a shit, think what you will, and yea, I’m a fatty.

      And so sorry for for not going to the nth fuckimg degree at every moment for the new religion.

      • ??

        I didn’t say you were a fatty. I said the shirt looks a little strange at first glance. I just wanted to point out that you have many flattering photos of yourself and your physique and IMO you don’t use any of the ” “beefcake” ones to identify you ;)

    • TandooriChicken says:

      You know what else might look like fat rolls? Big lats.

  26. Doesn’t matter if you bring science to the debate or not, I’m sure you’ll hear about all the “numerous” studies validating every claim made about a vegan diet. So “numerous” in fact that he can’t even pick just one to point to!

    Looking forward to what you bring to table, DR isn’t bringing anything I’m sure.

  27. I would love to see Harley attempt something like MovNat. He could bring all his own food and then show the carnivores what he is made of.

    How does one pack when you exist on 70 bananas a day plus? You would need crates and crates of fruit. Like if you wanted to to hiking and camping in the woods. How would you attempt to bring all that fruit? A paleo could pack some pemmican and munch on only that if they wanted to.

    • Now that is one awesome idea, and poignant, D. I’m gonna hafta email my friend Erwan.

    • I have often wondered about something along these lines myself; if veganism, and especially this raw fruititarian bunk was/is the ideal diet evolutionarily, where in the hell did all the fruit and edible plants come from? As far as I know it would be pretty damn hard to sustain an entire tribe on fruit and plants alone without clear cutting every forest in sight and planting the plants that actually produce food; not to mention this would make any tribe in the northern hemisphere migratory due to lack of vegetation in the winter.

  28. Stabby says:

    Look at all of those kangaroos! I wish Canada had kangaroos. Wikipedia says they are the animal with the most conjugated linoleic acid in the world! In the world! And Harvey is wasting them! Now I’m upset.

  29. TandooriChicken says:

    Truly looking forward to the debate. I won’t be able to sign in live but I’m sure it’ll be well worth the few sparse dollars investment in the mp3.

  30. They spelled your name wrong in the video. Doesn’t matter though, I’m waiting for you to hand him his ass on platter carved from durian wood.

    • On an all fruit diet? I’m doubting there’s any such thing as “durian wood.”

      Bwahaha.

      • Look it durian wood, Bill and re-read what I wrote. I’m obviously pulling for Richard.

      • Look up, that is.

      • I guess if I have to explain it then it’s not funny. I was making a tacky reference. The joke being that with his abysmal testosterone levels from his poor diet that I doubt Durian could muster a decent erection.

        Hence, I questioned the existence of “durian wood”.

        Eh, it made me laugh, but I’m just a tacky guy. What can I say?

      • Ha, OK! Tacky is fine with me. I think I’ll stop reading this site late in the evening when my brain is fried from work; not the best time for full cognition.

      • Kevin Hughes says:

        Actually Bill, it cracked me up.

  31. Cant wait.

  32. OK ….. hunting “primal style”……on a bike?? with a helmet??? with no actual implement to dispose of the beast?? thats like walking into the DMV and saying “I want my licence” and then being told you have to sit a test, and then telling the nice DMV lady “no!! I just want my licence!! NOW!!!” …. completely backward reasong…..and if thats what being a vegan does to your intelligence, then I am pretty happy I am not one……idiot!!

    “kangaroos are hard to catch….i dont know whats going on here”….well I do, youre an idiot….thats about all that is going on here. kangaroos are not for “catching”, they are not pets, they are for eating you moron.

    for those who dont know much about australians….we arent all completely useless wastes of existence….most are actually normal…..a far cry from this tosser…..

  33. Looking forward to it! Just saw your sample diets on the sign up page- his made me want to gag! How does a person consume that many oranges or bananas?

  34. Does Harley take all of those bananas…orally?

  35. Marten says:

    Maybe if he got off his damn bike and incorporated a bit of STEALTH into the hunt, he would have been a bit more successful. I know there are a select few animals out there (mainly insects and fish) who use a type of lure to draw prey in. but being in plain sight, calling prey towards you from the get-go, is going to result in an epic fail for most other animals!!

    My cat creeps up slowly, stays hidden and waits for the perfect time to pounce on the birds and mice, she doesn’t roll about in the grass purring and meowing, trying to intice her meal over. So what makes this guy think he is going to get anywhere staring the animal in the face cooing “here kangaroo, come here!!” (I know humans do have use some type of lures. Bait for fishing and duck whistles for huntng ducks etc, but nothing so out in the open like this)

    He couldn’t have been more conspicuous if his bike had luminous streamers flaring from the handlebars and he was ringing his bell to the tune of a Kylie Minogue hit!

    No wonder he failed.

    • He didn’t fail. In fact this is perfect ammo for meat eaters. Look how easy these things are to catch! He had to be extremely obnoxious just to get them 20 feet away. That’s within spearing distance even for an old woman. No tree climbing or anything else risky involved. Sure, bananas don’t fight back. But they don’t voluntarily come hopping towards the pot like these kangaroos.

      • Kendra says:

        Yes but a meat-eating man, woman, or child could give him a boost (or heck just toss him up) in a fruit tree, he is so light. Then he can just float down on the wind (granted he drops the fruit to the ground since it’s heavier than him). Not even a good work-out for a meat-eater though so who’d bother?

    • Tomasz R. says:
  36. Dunston once again demonstrates how early vegan man became extinct…

  37. I am really looking forward to this debate. Ignore those who say it will have limited appeal/influence. When the pupil is ready, the teacher arrives. It should/could provide a solid record of the merits (or otherwise) of these two diets.

    You might want to look at this link (http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/fruit-table/wild-cultiv-fruit-1a.shtml). The question I’d put to Harley is just how natural is fruit as a component of diet – particularly the modern fruits that he chooses?

    The video was a tad hard to get through. So much of what Harley says is devoid of rational thought. So what if Aussies eat an animal that is also their national emblem? One of the recognised emblems of Wales is the Leek and the flag of Fiji contains bananas !

    Harley also fails to appreciate that most complex animals developed claws, teeth and speed to evade predation, plants have evolved toxins to evade predation and humans have developed their intellectual capacity to hunt/evade predation. Just because something is faster than you does not mean you should not eat it. It just means your chasing something that carries genes selected for by natural selection.

    Having watched that video you posted of the Vegan camp, I am aware of how labour intensive vegansim can be. I am also aware of how many tools they used to process their food. Why is vegan tool use to access calories preferential over HG tool use to access calories?

    Harley – If something is faster than you hunt it with spears, abow, a trap or a rifle!

    • His point was if meat was natural to eat for man it WOULD be that easy like picking a damn banana off the tree.

      • Stabby says:

        That makes no sense. Meat by definition runs away from you. Of course it is harder than picking a banana off a tree, but we’re most adept hunters and don’t try to tell me that a hunter-gatherer can’t kill one of those kangaroos in the video. It is a heck of a lot harder to get the equivalency in calories from wild fruit than it is to hunt wild animals, especially in paleolithic Africa. Please. If humans were natural herbivores we wouldn’t have such a limited gut.

      • Ok I get it – so applying THAT logic, I guess shark are not meant to eat fish nor are lions meant to eat antelope because in both cases the smaller fish and the antelope try to ‘get away’? Is that right? Surely Harley cannot defend such a ridiculous point.

        Let’s feed shark and lion on bananas eh?

      • That’s idiotic. Fruit is seasonal and animals fight for it in wild settings. Nothing is easy when surviving in nature.

  38. Dino Babe says:

    Ohh man this guy makes make laugh. He’s clearly off his chops! He obviously hasn’t seen any actual Australians in action. Them macropods is good tucker. Have been to an Aboriginal wedding and the menu included Dugong (it is a considered a spear only kill), Sea turtle, and Crayfish a-la-yum. These custodians of the land have been managing and eating from this land for 40,000 years . Meat is food. How else do you survive in a dry arid land? Good luck Richard you will be debating with the most deluded and ignorant Australian I’ve had the misfortune to witness.

    PS Due to cyclones and flooding across QLD – Bananas cost AU$13.00/kg – and that’s being generous.

    PPS Already they misrepresent you as a raw meat eater………..rare ain’t raw.

    • Dino Babe “Ohh man this guy makes make laugh. He’s clearly off his chops! He obviously hasn’t seen any actual Australians in action.”

      Well there is a great question right there. What enabled early man to settle in Australia? Was it the fruit or the meat?

      Harley – The fact is that you can only be a fruitarian if you have year-round access to commercial grown fruit. This carries a massive overhead as if you move fruit from where it is consumed, you are depleting the land and need to return nutrients. In commercial operations this is oil based. You also need to ship food fast to your fruitarian market – and as fruits spoil easily you need to do this quickly. And commercial fruit growing requires monocropping large areas so you’d better rip up those complex ecosystems and once cropped, spray on the pesticides.

      • Liz Downunder says:

        “Well there is a great question right there. What enabled early man to settle in Australia? Was it the fruit or the meat?”

        I know you’re being rhetorical, but it’s a very good point. Australian Aborigines use a vast array plants with edible parts but as a supplement to the food they hunt. They even came up with the boomerang, which, if it didn’t hit its intended target (animal/bird) would come back to the thrower to have another go. Quite ingenious…

        Of course the white man came from Britain and killed off most of the Aborigines, and continue to keep them marginalised here.

      • “Of course the white man came from Britain and killed off most of the Aborigines, and continue to keep them marginalised here.”

        Yep and Britain was settled by various European tribes (from Italy and Germany) who killed off indigenous people in the British Isles. Those indigenous people themselves came through Europe at some point from Africa. And we can regress right back to the cradle of civilisation.

        However there is no excuse for a modern society to marginalise any part of its population on the basis of race. It is an issue for modern Australian society to address.

      • freeagent says:

        Asclepius as a fourth generation Australian the aboriginal situation is not that simple. I have grown up and lived amongst them my whole life. Many Aboriginal individuals and tribes in Aus have vast wealth and opportunities available to them that a great deal of other Australians don’t. Substance abuse often precedes those journalistic masterpieces of greater Australia’s marginalisation of our indigenous peoples. A great many aboriginal stand as sober hard working people and should not be considered victimized . The cyclic nature of dysfunction amongst families of any race whom are blighted by destructive addictions makes it improbable that the individual’s offspring will not suffer the same demons.

        The Aboriginal unaffected by western dietary influences would absolutely kick that drongo in the video’s arse in any fitness challenge, except bike riding especially Kangaroo catching.

        Liz I imagine you live in the southern part of the country?

      • Liz Downunder says:

        Yes, from Melbourne. On my many travels north I found it hard to find compassion for the crowds of drunk/high Aboriginals in and around Darwin and Alice. But if you’ve lived among them then you’ve also encountered the elders, the artists, the ones who are still very much in tune with their nature and the land. And you see how much has been lost and will continue to be lost. Throwing money at them hasn’t worked, as many of them really just want to stay on the land away from civilisation, but they have trouble balancing that need with the need to pick up welfare, because the land can’t sustain them.

        They were very successful hunters and managed the land that they lived on (although possibly drove some larger mammals to extinction). You’re right, the situation is not that simple…

      • Liz, very reminiscent of the US situation with the natives and the reservations. Look it up. Paying them to be derelict and out of the way, is what it is.

      • Hi Freeagent, I apologise if I came across as flippant. I understand that it is a complex issue, and believe it or not, here in the UK we have sections of society who are stuck in a downward spiral of welfare dependence, substance abuse, crime, poverty etc….

        My response was to Liz’s “white man from Britain” line which I found quite rather glib.

      • Liz Downunder says:

        I don’t think I was being glib…that’s what happened. And yes, such atrocities happened (and continue to happen) elsewhere, which doesn’t diminish in any way what happened to the Aborigines who were here for 40-50k years then almost wiped off the map by the first explorers and settlers.

      • Tomasz R. says:

        There’s a huge difference between the treatment of Native Americans and Australian Aboriginals. Native Americans have average IQ of close to 90 (which btw. is world’s average), which means their population could participate in the life of advanced technological cililization. So isolating them is superficial, not based on real-world factors.

        Australian Aboriginals on the other hand have avg. IQ of ~64, which makes it impossible for this population (except few brighter individuals) to participate in technological civilization. Thus leaving them alone seems to be the only option for them to survive.

      • Right, I’m SO sure the standardized IQ testing is completely accurate at all times despite differences in socioeconomic and educational status, and that test should be the basis (as you describe) of whether an entire race of people will survive in a technological situation.

        And while we’re at it, all the Americans and other industrialized people who get equally low IQ test scores… yeah, I see them dying right and left. Don’t you?

        Thus leaving them alone seems to be the only option for them to survive.

      • freeagent says:

        Yes Liz it’s a complex situation without a doubt. I wish the Australian aboriginal all best, unfortunately I believe their plight would be the same no matter who invaded / settled this country

  39. Eric Lepine says:

    This guy can’t be for real. Seriously!?!?!? Actually, given the reasoning capacities brought on by following this type of diet over a long stretch of time, it’s maybe not that hard to imagine…

    I’ve studied Doug Graham for a while. The same for the whole Natural Hygiene movement, where Mr. Graham’s philosophy and approaches stem from. As a naturally curious and self-experimenting dude, I’ve followed this approach in years past. Not too long after being a vegetarian, then a vegan… Then, I came upon http://www.beyondveg.com, got exposed to some great thinkers and arguments, and I never looked back since. That was 10 years ago… If you’ve never checked out http://www.beyondveg.com Richard, I suggest you do. Lots of tools on there to counter any argument this fruit-induced brain fog lunatic might want to throw at you (not that you need any, I’m sure, but you can never know your enemy too much :)))). Lots of stuff on fruitarianism, comparative anatomy, Natural Hygiene. etc.

    Anyways, the whole 80-10-10 argument makes no sense. Not implying it can’t work for a transient or temporary period of time. But, that’s not what Graham, Harley or another guy by the name of T.C. Fry claimed (http://www.chetday.com/v4n7.pdf).

    Alright. Looking forward to this debate, mate ;)

  40. Ha, if I ever see a raw vegan with a thicker neck than I, he can make me dinner.

  41. Fuckin’ hippies! Kick some ass, Richard, I’m bored with these guys…

  42. Christ says:

    the ironic thing is vegans often eat that way because they fear death and they end up looking like walking dead… skeletons with a thin veneer of wrinkled skin.
    One thing I am sure of,the human capacity for self delusion is limitless.

    I dont have a weight loss story just the typical IBS cured ect from 3-4 years paleo/primal.
    36 yeas old BTW and looking pretty darn good if I do say so myself.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/8017226@N06/4382252809/

  43. Paul C says:

    No C*mpbell pic? For a while it sounded like he was ready to march on Paleo Castle with a banana army. I have a 90 year old dairy farmer uncle that looks better than him.

    • Paul C says:

      Seems as though someone has taken liberty with his Wikipedia page and entered a death date. Maybe you’ll get blamed for that Richard.

  44. I knew a guy once who suffered from leprosy and his neck was bigger than the vegan guy.

  45. I’ve published a couple of updates to the post, the first one about Duriander’s post announcing this event on his puny blog and the second, a call out for any former raw vegans who wish to relay their experiences to me.

  46. Most hilarious (and saddening thing) I saw when clicking the “30 Bananas a Day” link; the first thread was “Experiencing Facial Bloating” ). In it a good looking woman (based on her avatar) discusses how she’s literally, popping 5-6x per day and eating 2000-3000 calories. Seriously? Man, that’s got to be rough.

    • Paul C says:

      Every time I go there a newbie is saying “my is bloated” or “I have this awful fatigue” or “my body composition isn’t improving”. The advice is always to wait for the detox to be over, or eat another random mix of fruit.

      They should really censor the newbies, as their honesty is too revealing.

      • It’s also amazing how large their barrier to entry is. I want to tell her exactly *why* it is. But all they seem to do is tell her she’s getting ‘fat’.

  47. He was still wearing the helmet when he tried to chase them down on foot! Hehehe!! He probably could have caught one if he had put down the camera for a minute or two. More than likely, it was the excess weight slowing him down.
    I also lol’d at the mention of your charity, Richard. You truly are a giving individual. Go ahead and give it to him with both barrels smoking.

    I’ve been following your blog for a couple months now and fixing my lifestyle as I go, and I think this post takes the cake for funniest. I’m looking forward to tuning in to the debate.

  48. Tomasz R. says:

    That Durianraider guy has wasted his opportunities due to this fruitarian cult. He definitely has some visible media talent, is extrovert, active has initiative and is persistent in what he is doing. His natural looks (minus fruitarian degeneration) is good too. He definitely lacks professionalism, that would come with learning and experience. So if he hadn’t wasted his time on following some crappy diet he might be hosting a crappy TV for simple people now or (best bet) more likely creating advertisments for TV and radio.

    • Fartsy says:

      Well he was a drug addict before fruit saved him. Or he a credits his diet with helping him get lean. It would be interesting though. Most vegans start to hit the wall around year 5. Your body can put up will a lot though.

  49. Woodwose says:

    Yea they look skinny but that Dough Graham has some superb upper body strenght at least

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vzk-jh1eemI&feature=player_embedded#at=152

    • Paul C says:

      I clicked that expecting to see some feats of strength, but instead I get skinny old man butt. I want to poke out my eyes.

      Put a chimp on his back with a 30lb bag of bananas, then have him do pull-ups and I’ll be impressed.

    • Kevin Hughes says:

      I really don’t think that’s “superb upper body strength.” You could reach that level within a few months when you’re body weight is so low.

    • Dino Babe says:

      That does not demonstrate upper body strength by any stretch of the imagination. None of those movements are controlled or strengthful. It’s like he’s racing to get it done before he flakes.

      “I want to poke out my eyes.” -Paul C

      Ditto.

      And Pink Floyd deserves better.

    • No, THIS is superb upper body strength. Misha Koklyaev, professional strongman, weighing 160 kg (350 Lbs).
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOibqyiXir4&feature=player_embedded

  50. Lauren R says:

    Saw two threads on the 30bananas site one discussing dental issues and one on low libido.

    • And when one actually reads those threads, one may realize that the people are talking about healed teeth and improved libido.

      • Don’t use my name D

      • oops

      • Lauren R says:

        I read the threads, the tooth one references you to another site with some dubious explanations. Eating that much sugar and just brushing with water twice a day cannot be helpful to teeth. They also posted a picture of a supposed raw meat eater…no references but a scary photo.
        The libido thread is actually two threads in one, discussing both sex drive and philosophy. The threads starts with someone talking about low libido…yes, there are many reasons libido diminishes, I just thought it was interesting that they never got around to science in the discussion.
        How can we use your name, D?

  51. Butcher Pete says:

    Maybe it’s the lighting or the camera,but he looks incredibly unhealthy,I think we humans can easily spot a healthy individual (no spots,no skin rashes,white teeths,great hair,warm skin),he just look like “bleh”,while you Richard look very healthy,keep it up.

  52. Should be a good debate….. Can’t wait. I was a Raw Vegan for many years and got pretty thin trying to compete as an Ironman Triathlete….. Had some of my worst races… I am now near paleo, lift sprint and am strong. I have done 30 banana’s. You look crazy coming out of the store with a shit load of them in your basket. The gas I would have, oh boy and having to piss all the time from the fluid in the fruit would keep me up at night.

    I could go on an on but hell I need to go finish my steak.

  53. Amanda Thomas-Harris says:

    Wow, I saw Dr. Graham in person for a seminar once when I first heard about raw vegan and tried it out (stupidly before I found the low carb way of living) but whatever I was 19- now 24 so I now officially know-it-all ;-)
    It was “fun” but not sustainable, after 28 days (my goal was 30) I gave up due to hunger and my best friend claiming I looked “yellow” haha.. I hate you Jesse … Anyways he has aged tremendously!! he looks like shite but guess that shouldn’t really be a shocker. I’d hate to see what he looks like if continues this fiasco and doesn’t he have a baby.. ohh man another brain fried vegan kid whose probably lucky to be alive, for now.. Anyways gonna go back and read the article (got excited when I saw Graham just had to write this comment first). I’m actually new to the blog and now I’m also newly addicted! going back to read all your old stuff and found you actually because of your blog on the moron/hypocrite/fake/hater over at 180 degree health, he use to be ok and when I went to comment on his ramblings about body temp he wouldn’t even post my comment.. So, thanks for all your effort, its truly entertaining and totally looking forward to new bloggings!
    much love
    -Amanda

  54. A Eilola says:

    “The only person from the low carb, high fat camp that had the guts to do a debate with me was Richard Nokely. Mark Sisson, Sean Croxton, David Wolfe, Daniel Vitalis and Sally Fallon all said ‘No way!’. I dont blame em either!”

    Why the hell would any of those guys waste their time debating a complete nobody like Durianrider?

    • TandooriChicken says:

      Their guts were probably digesting grass-fed steak at the time, and simply had no time or inclination to debate. Priorities.

  55. Corinne says:

    Can’t wait for the debate, Richard! You will kick his ass!

    You know what’s hilarious – Harley hasn’t posted about the debate at 30bananas. Methinks he doesn’t want his followers to know about it!!

  56. Jennifer says:

    It’s amusing as hell that on his facebook page, so many of his supportors use violent words to allude how they think the debate will go. Yet, they don’t believe in running down animals for meat? Makes their whole view of meat eating hypocritical. Don’t believe in being violent towards animals, but oops! let’s get violent in a DEBATE, no less. Definitely odd people.

    • TandooriChicken says:

      Not only that, but they feel indignantly offended when anyone else uses similar language towards them, and openly call for their censoring, banning, or deletion.

  57. Harley should be on “Saturday Night Live” – too funny. Here’s another one:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ_Ienq2m7c&feature=related

  58. This is the first time I picked up that you are a pilot, Richard. Perhaps sometime you could write about that. Paleo creeps into the picture when you fly to remote places or need food for a long flight. Weight and balance also affected by heavy coolers filled with paleo food and ice! My husband flies, I don’t like it much, but would like it more if good food awaited me at destination …

  59. Maybe we shouldn’t be trying to get people away from their vegan diet. The world is already overpopulated right? If Veganism stunts brain development or if stunted brain development promotes irrational diets, either way, dumping a few people from the population is a good thing, right?

    • People can eat vegan if they want it’s their choice just as long as they don’t force it on their kids.

  60. Anyone else posted to Durianrider’s blog and had the post removed later? I posted a perfectly polite message that provided some of my pictures spanning 5-6 years to address his comments on paleo dieters not having good body comp.

    I also pointed out that it was impolite of him to accuse those with good body comp of taking drugs and staging pictures to coincide with dehydration without any evidence of such.

    Now I see that my comments are gone. Hmmm. Disappointing.

    I’ve always taken the attitude that a good challenging debate is valuable. I either get new information, reevaluate, and change my position, or my position is strengthened by my going through the arguments from my side. I just don’t see the downside, but perhaps if at some level I knew my position wouldn’t withstand scrutiny and I had other reasons for being attached to it I would feel differently.

    But sheesh, that would insinuate veganism is a religion or cause. And that would make Harley a Veganista.

    :)

  61. to clarify, is this going to be an actual debate?
    or is this going to be one interview played after another, like the other “great health debates”?

  62. I am counting down the days. Go Animal, beat Banana Boy!

  63. Richard,
    I haven’t read all the comments to this post but I think it would be great if both of you would get your bloodwork done before the debate and have the results interpreted by Dr. Kurt G. Harris. I would enjoy hearing his response to his likely shitty bloodwork numbers.
    Craig

    • A bloodwork duel!

      Hell yeah!

    • Craig:

      He has published somewhat comprehensive blood test results on his Youtube channel (search: raw vegan blood tests). About what you’d expect from someone who gets a more-or-less adequate micronutrient and protein intake (see Julianne’s post, linked above by Richard), supplements with B12 and eats little fat both in absolute and relative terms: within or near optimal range by most measures with, if I remember correctly, middling testosterone and DHEA on the low end of normal. Of course, he does this by being very physically active, eating two or three times as many calories as he might otherwise need for nourishment on a more mixed diet and enjoying a varied selection of choice produce in a tropical environment–probably not the lifestyle of the typical member of his website and probably not the recipe for peak wellness.

      As for Doug Graham’s apparent health issues, if you search his posts on his message board (takes a bit of work) or at 30BAD you’ll find that he attributes much of it to past stress and injury. It is evident that, like Harley his disciple, the man is a sun worshipper and has been one for a long time: this can certainly account for the premature aging of his skin. And that’s fair enough. But, if 80/10/10 raw veganism is the ultimate health program, surely half a life spent following it ought to be enough to undo much past sickness, as well as to quell many of the stresses of modern living at least enough to prevent such a rapid change as one sees by watching his videos. When a man makes a living convincing folks, inter alia, that “[r]aw fats are unquestionably better for us than cooked fats, and plant fats better than animal fats” (ref) and “[e]fficient functioning is most readily achieved when body temperatures run healthfully, in the lower 90′s” (ref), one begins to suspect that past bodily abuses, however heinous, may only be part of the story.

      One of Harley’s go-to observations about those he perceives his adversaries is that they are sincere, but sincerely wrong. On a good day that’s how I feel about him and his idol but, when I see people failing to thrive on the diet, I sometimes question their sincerity.

      Denise Minger, earlier mentioned, remains a fruit lover and has some great blog posts on the pitfalls commonly encountered on LFRV diets, for anyone interested. Despite all its shortcomings, there is something to be said for a more relaxed, fruit-oriented plan supplemented with animal products, cooked starches and other foods (as many ex-30badders, like D.M. and Erim Bilgin, have discovered)–and it’s something many of those at 30bad should hear, but somehow I doubt Harley is going to tell them.

      I’ve been an avid follower of your blog, Richard, as well as of the raw vegan scene for several years, so it’s been cool to see the two worlds colliding as they are. Don’t knock ‘em too dead next week–just enough to wake ‘em up.

      • Excellent, well reasoned comment, GH.

        Incidentally, my three posts on my own bloodwork can be found by searching the blog for Lipid Panel.

      • How can he blame it on past stress or injury when he claims to have been a raw foodie for 33 years? lame….

      • We must remember that both Denise and Erim suffered from anorexia when they ate 811 style. A quick google search will confirm this and both parties will openly talk about it. I wish them good health whatever they eat. Anorexia is a nasty condition that can leave deficiencies for years.

  64. A wise man once told me “Never argue with an idiot, they pull you down to their level and beat you with experience.”

    Richard, have fun with this idiot. Not sure much will change because of it, but it will be fun to watch.

    Hopefully it is a quick debate, otherwise you might have to wait for him during his banana breaks.

  65. I’m really new to the Paleo community, only a couple of months into it, but I’m loving it. Especially since I have a 4 year old with Type 1 Diabetes, this way of eating has been great for her.

    I got into Paleo by way of Tom Naugton’s show Fat Head. I have NO medical training, but from what I’ve heard on numerous pod casts and read in different books, isn’t this guy in danger of eventually developing Type 2 Diabetes from eating all of that sugar?

    • He’s still young. Wait ’til he’s 40 or 45, when his ability to keep up his riding becomes limited because his joints are failing and his testosterone levels (which are low now) have dropped to next to nothing. Should be very interesting, assuming he doesn’t develop something like Addison’s Disease first.

    • TandooriChicken says:

      His level of physical activity will keep diabetes at bay for a while. I do believe that the chronic wear of endurance training will catch up to him in due time. His body seems to carry just enough muscle to store just enough glycogen to fuel his style of training, but who knows how long his joints will last?

      • Riding a bike isn’t too hard on the joints, the damage I would worry about is to the privates but Lance Armstrong seems to do okay in that regard even with only one testicle.

        I haven’t seen many stories about crippled former riders.

  66. This is TOO awesome. Let’s see… at 6:00 PM PST on APril 14 I will be just arriving at the hotel in Oxnard for Primal Con with 6 other caveman/women! Maybe we will all have to listen in together on the beach!

  67. I, for one, am really sick of the “humans don’t have claws/fangs/whatever” so we obviously aren’t designed to hunt.

    Oh yeah, well we don’t have mole claws either so we shouldn’t be eating root vegetables and don’t have big strong beaks so we shouldn’t be eating nuts either.

    What these morons can’t seem to be honest enough to admit is that we don’t have claws/fangs/beaks/mole claws/whatever BECAUSE WE DON’T NEED THEM!!! We have the ultimate natural weapons and harvesting tools- opposable thumbs and big, calculating, sapient BRAINS.

    I’m thinking I should make a video showing just how easy it is for even someone with hardly any stone working skills to knap out a servicable spear, knife, and digging tool from a chunk of flint.

  68. Elainie says:

    I did 811 RV- worst year of my life- oh yeah they said I didn’t do it *rightt*. My hair fell out, I couldd not get out of bed, bruises on my legs just from sitting on a chair, peeling nails, pimples for the first time in my life, blurred vision , memory loss, slurred speech. I finally went to my ND for blood tests and of course I had serious issues. Oh and my TSH went up to 165! My ND was scared I was going to go into a coma. I had eaten clean all my life, grew up eating organic whole foods, went primal in my late 20′s and then high raw paleo. Then I went raw vegan, not being able to digest the high nut/seed content I thought I’d make things simple and just do 811 as everyone else seemed to have so much success. I had been a road cyclist, yoga practitioner and lifted weights- I lost all my strength and could no longer do any of that. And the real scary part was that I thought I would never be able to regain cognitive function. I did heal and yes it did take some time but I did it. And now I’m back to my f9ormer state of optimal health. I still eat a lot of raw food but I have tweaked my diet to suit me- not someone else’s agenda. And yes, Doug Graham looks like crap- saw him in person and he looks mighty old. There are other long term raw vegans his age and older than look better but they are not eating high fruit. Harley looks like he just escaped from a concentration camp- he is in need of some serious nutrition IMO.

  69. The irony of the video is that he is riding a high tech bike, using a camera and posting on Youtube. Yet scoffs at or apparently ignores far simpler and more ancient technology that enabled us to hunt animals. (Like the boomerang, traps and spears). I think he is lacking omega 3, his capacity to think things through is very poor.
    http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/88432.php

  70. Paul Verizzo says:

    Johnstone’s constant bragging about his athletic prowess overlooks a major problem. He’s only good at one thing: endurance. Look at endurance runners, usually skinny like old Harv.

    His high “x-ose” diet is like a constant IV drip. Good for steady state efforts.

    I noticed in that long piece about his diet that all of his alleged accomplishments are either unsupportable, or he changes his qualifiers, or they are PB’s. Wow, I have PB’s, too, but Lance will kick my ass without sweating.

    Don’t forget, you will never convince him or his flabby brained followers of the error of their ways. This is religion, just a god of fruit instead of cosmic. I’ve steadied religion for decades, have a masters in theology, and just look and think. There is no difference between raw vegans and a fundie/Baptist/Muslim/Orthodox Jew. (Except all of them probably have better diets!)

    Like fundies, Johnstone lives in a world of bad “science,” control of his web content, exorcising any soul that disagrees, and has no room for any difference of opinion.

    Go get ‘im, Tiger!

    PS, all that study and living a Paleo life, mostly makes me an atheist!

    • Paul Verizzo says:

      Oh, yeah. Now I recall your religious and educational background, Richard.

      All the better.

    • Those are my thoughts exactly. I called it a religion in a comment near the top. You can’t convince these people they are wrong, you can only hope to convince OTHERS that this person is wrong. Anyone with eyes can see it, some people just need a nudge in the right direction. And like I said above, he can run marathons or ride a bike for a day but look how winded he got when he tried to actually move quickly for a few seconds. It was horrible. Honestly, he seems sincere, if misguided and like a pretty decent human being. I really almost feel sorry for him.

  71. noah gabriel says:

    Ask the fool to articulate the etiology of type 2 diabetes.

  72. Does anyone plan on recording this for latter listening? I might not be available for it live.

  73. Barry Bliss says:

    I was vegan for 16 years before I hit a wall, so Durian being one for 7 years (is that right) does not convince me that it’s a permanent way to go.
    Durian, as you know there are meat eaters that run faster than you. Not that that means anything more than your comments about being a competitive runner mean.

    This debate is going to suck if it’s two guys defending, insulting and being mean.
    Let’s here personal experiences and let’s here about studies that have been done.
    I don’t care to hear personal insults.

    PS Durian, of course your diet is healthy in a bunch of ways and yes you are pretty fit etc.
    I ran a 5:17 mile at age 39 as a vegan, which was only 30 seconds slower than my best high school time, and I was hardly training, but that is not proof that a vegan diet is sustainable or healthy long term.

  74. You have to admit Durian and his friends are onto something with the 80-10-10 percentage stuff though. I follow a very similar percentage breakdown in my diet.

    It wasn’t intentional, but when I go back through my food logs it would seem that for protein sources I’m 80-10-10 percent of grassfed beef, some form of pork, and fish.

    And it’s working well for me. :) It’s apparently just a magical ratio.

  75. The only reason that Lance Armstrong is doing “ok”, (still having children), is because he had a bunch of sperm frozen before he underwent his cancer treatments. But I guess that none of that matters for the banana guy because didn’t it say in one of the previous posts that he had been “fixed” anyway?

    • Well he did have testicular cancer … that probably wreaks havoc with the nads … anyway I wasn’t commenting on his ability to father children (which is dime a dozen) but rather his ability to bone hot chicks … apparently it still works after thousands of hours on the bike.

      • Right, because I’m sure Lance isn’t doing anything illicit-but-damned-hard-to-detect like injecting not-quite-superphysiological doses of testosterone.

  76. I know cycling has always been a “carb” heavy sport but for the record we are not all of the same brush. In fact I had my best club/competitive season in 201o following a low carb, high fat/protein Primal diet. Not only did I drop 20+ pounds quickly while actually training less but my power(wattage) improved along with my endurance.Before any ride I had the classic “bacon(or other fatty meat) and eggs with wilted spinach.My pre race meal(30 minutes from the start) was applesauce mixed with coconut milk and cinnamon. I rarely needed to eat on the bike but during longer rides snacked on cubed coconut meat and a few almonds. None of that gel stuff or powerbar crap. Yuck!Good old plain water in the bottles too.My average race distances were around 70-80kms with average speeds around 34kph.

    As for the “nads” it all comes down to finding the right saddle. Everyone’s sit bones are different so what saddle works for me will not necessarily work for the next guy. If you use a saddle too narrow for your sitbones all your weight is on the soft tissues and that isn’t good.(wink) Good quality cycling shorts with a high end chamois is worth every single penny and your arse and nads will thank you and “off bike” performance will be fine….hehehehe!

    So from my perspective you can cycle well following Paleo/Primal nutrition……cause I’m doing it.
    Geo

  77. Alex Good says:

    He’s lulling you into a false sense of security! Nobody is that stupid!

  78. I wish this was two people that respected each other and were simply interested in speaking about their own experiences and the tests they’ve studied and how they interpret them.
    There are a ton of good things about a high fruit diet–especially compared to the avergae american diet, and there are some potentially very dangerous aspects to it as well.
    Guys, for the sake of science and truth, please debate each other in accurate, honest, open way, and if both of you do that, both sides may find some stuff the other side says of interest.
    I had to say goodbye to veganism–and my fruit intake may still be too high, but I have studied and experimented for enough years to know that both of you probably k have some great ideas and truths to share.

  79. Paul Verizzo says:

    I wandered over to 30BAD and poked around. Mostly spent time reading a long thread about protein and body building. The lack of logic and sound science was jaw dropping. Just like religious followers, lots of nattering nabobs, repeating buzz words and ignorance.

    No discussion about QUALITY of protein, just protein totals from that fruit(cake) diet. Holding out genetic freak/outliers as what can be done on a high sugar diet. The OP was honest enough to comment and observe that “most of us” are very thin and do not have much muscle.

    Of course, that was rationalized away.

    (To be perfectly honest, I’ve thought about this matter of physique in hunter-gatherers a lot. They are NOT well muscled by our Arnie standards, not even at a fraction of him. It is my evolving belief that we have the DNA to have large muscles, but it takes, relatively speaking, an overload of both calories and protein for the body to feel safe in making what is expensive to maintain flesh.)

    My intellect had to go take a long, hot, sudsy shower after wading in that academic cesspool.

  80. For a long time I thought the 30BAd sight was literally a joke.A troll job that took on a life of its own. I finally had to accept the sad fact that it was a real sight and somehow delusional people ignorant enough to hold those beliefs could actually put together a website.

    Every time someone presents DurianLiar with evidence/pics/vids that are contrary to his faith I picture him putting fingers firmly into ears going “lalalalal I cant hear you lalala*delete*”

    look at this tubby gut after a few years on “Paleo”…damn I’m a fat,lethargic slob.I cut myself some slack for being older than DurianLiar but maybe I can look as good as him someday if I just ride my bike 5 hours per day…I’m going today to buy 6 cases of nanas to suckle.Anyone want my freezer full of meat? lol

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/8017226@N06/4382252809/

    • Looking good. But of course you are musclebound, are using steroids, and will die before you are 30.

  81. He’s looking to defect.

    Sure, his rotten teeth could be due to bad genes rather than his all sugar diet. His overly aged skin could be from severe sun exposure rather than disintegrating collagen from hyper glycation. His inability to understand the scientific concept of causation could be lack of intelligence rather than a brain starving for fats. But, in each case I think it is the latter. And I think he knows this. He will listen to Richard’s well reasoned, data supported position and publicly disavow his all candy diet.

  82. Chelsea says:

    Only there is no evidence of rotting teeth. Coloration of teeth from phytonutrients is not decay. It can be cleaned with a mild abrasive if one wants.

    Noah, post photos of your teeth, and also with your shirt off. We’ll use that to base the effectiveness of whatever diet you eat.

    We’ll wait.

  83. Chelsea says:

    Ok, Noah. You have a good attitude, and thank you for obliging so readily.

    I don’t have any criticism at all – you look like you’re doing just fine. Nice workout with the weights.

    Don’t you think people here, including you above, are straining to criticize Harley when you make claims about dental decay where there is no sign of any?

    Rather than acknowledge that he is doing well on his diet, and exceptionally well, people try to twist his fitness and performance against him by complaining, “he has no choice but to exercise in order to burn off all that fruit.” If he didn’t exercise, people would say he was emaciated with no energy. If someone is emaciated, they have no energy to exercise like that, much less get out of bed.

    I just think a lot of the criticism here is unfounded and extremely mean-spirited.

    But I do thank you for your quick response and being so ready to put yourself in the public eye.
    Keep up the great workouts.

    • Chelsea, Fair enough. My vitriol is for two reasons. I did the vegan thing. Not dabbled in, but was vegan for over a decade. We’re talking hosting vegan potlucks, sprouting this, fermenting that. I know that stating to a vegan that you are ex-vegan is like (I’m stealing this one) saying you are an ex-antipedophile. But I did vegan and did it right. And got sick and old. I changed my diet to one congruent with our evolution and reversed that.

      I truly believe that vegan activists are hurting people. Harley may be doing well with his fruit but most won’t and don’t. Eventually. I have seen type 2 diabetes in my vegan friends, seen triglycerides out of control. they are not anomalous experiences. Those who are motivated by good ethical reasons are impressionable and ignore serious health dangers of a diet so high in carbohydrate and lacking in quality fats.

      Harley also disparaged and misrepresented some of the leading voices in the ancestral health field. That is the source of my contempt for him.

      But you’re right about his teeth. I have no evidence they are rotting.

    • Chelsea,
      “I just think a lot of the criticism here is unfounded and extremely mean-spirited”.

      Mean spirited maybe but nothing is as mean spirited as Harley has thrown out. He makes fun of anyone not agreeing with his diet. He deletes and bans anyone on his forum asking for real help. He has video after video making fun of those who have admitted that vegan didn’t work and change their diet, such as Daniel Vitalis and David Wolfe. (although Wolfe IS a plagiarist, charlatan and general douchebag)

      I came to know of Durianrider when Anthony Anderson (of rawmodel.com) was another one who admitted how he was constantly starving and obsessed with food when doing raw vegan. He decided to try adding a little yogurt to his diet. Not a big ass steak or a pound of bacon, but a bit of yogurt. Durian went ballistic and one of the most mean spirited threads about Anthony was started on 30BAD. (since deleted, of course). It pretty much insulted him, his personality, his vanity, his white teeth, the fact that he used a tanning bed. (Anthony makes a pretty damn good living as a model and admits this stuff comes with the job). The crap slinging went on and on. Actually it seemed many of the 30BAD crowd disagreed with the way Durian was going on and on and personally attacking him.

      So anyway, when you sling mud, be prepared to have some mud slung back. If Harley could grow up a little, offer honest answers of help to people not thriving on his diet and let the others live and let live, Im sure no one would have a problem with him.

  84. I’m seeing a whole mixture of stuff here.
    It’d be perfectly valid for Durian to ask Wolfe the following:
    ” You say your a fitness and health guru, but I see that you are overweight. Will you please explain this to me?”
    Then Wolfe could say:
    “Oh, I have on 12 shirts.”, or “Yes, I indulged in self pity during a hard time last year and put on weight. It was a mistake and not a reflection of my espoused dietary beliefs.”, or whatever.
    In other words–for now I’d like to see everyone open and honestly discussing what’s really going on, with no goal except to share.
    We can worry about what to do with it all later.
    The only thing that I am interested in hearing is people sharing their own experiences.

  85. Ex Vegans speak out
    http://www.fredericpatenaude.com/blog/?p=1878

    More on health problems of vegans from a vegan diet mentor

    • Yea, I read that from your tweet, earlier. I wonder who he was referencing here:

      “I believe it would be a little close-minded to totally dismiss these stories as arising from ‘anorexic’ people who ‘didn’t do the diet properly.’”

  86. Forgive me if this comes across as tasteless but we ARE talking about raw vegan ruining health and lives.

    Summer S. Kolesar just died of cancer. She was a raw vegan advocate.
    https://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=159941444061360

    Does a raw vegan diet cure??

  87. I’m sure a raw vegan diet does cure some stuff in some ways sometimes.
    I got many benefits out of it, you just have to be willing to change as your body asks you too.
    A large percentage of my diet is still raw vegan, but now that I have added yogurt, tuna, eggs, butter, liver, etc. I am noticing a positive difference.

    I am not on facebook so cannot read about Summer (it’s not online anywhere else that I can see) but her dieing of cancer is no proof for or against veganism. On it’s own, that cancer could have formed for any number of reasons.

  88. The raw vegan community pretty much tout their diet as a cure for cancer. Ibet Harley says his diet cures cancer

  89. Yeah, if none of us would exxagerate and we would just tell about whAT WE KNOW we could look at everything (compare notes) and maybe learn something.
    Are you going to see massive health benefits form stopping eating junk food and processed cakes and factory farm bologna and going two weeks on a high fruit raw diet.
    You bet you are.
    Let’s be honest–nothing more and nothing less.

    • True. A high fruit raw diet diet is less unhealthy in the short term than a junk food diet and will have a positive outcome. In the long term, it will lead to a different but overlapping set of pathologies.

      I also know that our species evolved eating an omnivorous diet. We survived and thrived on a diet that included meat. It allowed our brain size to increase and our gut to shrink. I also know that there are no instances of vegetarian cultures historically.

      As much as our ethical/emotion desires might lead us to a vegan diet, our physiology disagrees.

    • How about someone like Linda McCartney developing breast cancer after going vegetarian. No history of cancer in her family and the money to be eating the highest quality food she could.

  90. Good lord, the arrogance of this guy is truly breathtaking. He actually believes that the fact that he failed to single handedly catch a kangaroo (despite being an athlete extraordinaire – oh be still my beating heart!), is proof humans are not meant to eat meat. Oh the irony of a guy who shuns meat and fat, not being able to achieve what our ancestors (with their increasingly larger meat and fat fueled brains) were able to….

  91. “How about someone like Linda McCartney developing breast cancer after going vegetarian.”

    Could have been a factor.
    May not have been.

    “…and the money to be eating the highest quality food she could.”

    I have no idea how much Linda McCartney spent on food and have no idea what she ate.

    • She ate whatever food her husbonds BILLIONS of pounds allowed her to eat. So tap dance all you like.

  92. brandon says:

    This guy needs to google endurance hunting. And possibly read Born to Run.

  93. Richard, you do realize that durianrider.org is just his blog right? His main site, 30bananasaday.com it’s ranked at 51,000, whereas yours is ranked at 91,000. That’s a pretty big difference on the alexa scale when it gets to that number. So you pretty much just lied about your site being more popular. Am I wrong?

    • He’s comparing his BLOG to Durian’s BLOG. People go to 30bad to read and discuss, whereas they visit the blogs to see the opinions of one man and perhaps the comments posted.

      Yes, you’re wrong.

      • Where is Richard’s larger site that has more traffic than Harley’s?

      • Have your brain rotted. What part of “BLOG vs BLOG” is hard for you to comprehend? Read it over as many times as you need to.

      • Yes, Bill did have somewhat of a point in that this is a blog and is a more direct form of communication in which the content is initiated by the owner of the site rather than anybody that wishes to discuss something, so yes I suppose that a forum will be more prone to higher traffic levels.

        BUT, I’m wondering why Richard chose to try to make Harley look insignificant by pointing to his blog (which is only 1 year old as opposed to this site which is 3 years old, AND Harley only recently started posting regularly to it since it’s not his main medium of relaying information) instead of referencing his main site, 30bananasaday.com, which has a very respectable level of traffic, and is anything but insignificant?

        Also, what’s with the insult noa? How old are you?

      • “BUT, I’m wondering why Richard chose to try to make Harley look insignificant”

        It wasnt hard for me to decipher that it was said in a ‘tongue in cheek’ fashion. it is called having a sense of humour, which in my experience is the first thing Veg*ns loose.

        “Also, what’s with the insult noa? How old are you?”

        passive aggression fail. I call your bluff!

      • “BUT, I’m wondering why Richard chose to try to make Harley look insignificant by pointing to his blog”

        Paul, check out the first few words of the post. If it helps, they are in bold italics.

      • Either way, it reminded me of a sleazy political technique….that’s why I got annoyed.

        You’re right, I have lost my sense of humor. Darn. Maybe I’m humor deficient because I haven’t had enough meat.

        I’m outta here, I feel like I’m talking to 5th graders…

      • Interesting admission, Paul. You admit to being schooled by 5th graders, you can’t stand it, so you’re outta here.

        Bye.

      • When did I admit to being schooled by 5th graders?

        I’m referring to noa actually…

      • “When did I admit to being schooled by 5th graders?”

        Smart people have an annoying propensity to latch onto the obviously implicit.

      • I won! I won! I won!
        And its Noah with an H

      • but seriously, when did I admit to being schooled by 5th graders?

    • Paul

      30bad is a members forum, so no, I never considered checking it as it’s apples to oranges. I checked both Harley and Freelees blogs. Here’s fairs better than his, but not by huge.

      Once I saw this same objection in a thread about the debate I checked out 30bad on one of the services that estimates unique visitors (I forget which one at the moment, but can check later). Uniates were under 10k per month, whereas I run about 50k absolute unique.

      • Thanks for the explanation, but as an internet marketer who works with traffic number quite a bit, I highly doubt those figures are realistic. Please let me know the service you used to estimate.

      • gallier2 says:

        haha, changing the goal post.

      • Paul, it was either compete.com or quantcast, don’t recall which. Incidentally, in one of Harley’s videos I saw over the last few months, he himself said 30bad has about 1,500 members. Moreover, one can’t post there unless being a member and membership requirements are akin to getting into the inner chambers of the Vatican, from what I hear. Throw in some natural search and 10k Uniates sounds about right to me.

      • My Uniques are from Google analytics and my server side stats, and they confirm one-another. 40k is the lowest I see and some months as high as 60k.

      • google “Animal Free” , “Free Animal”. etc and see how high Richoard’s site appears on search results. Search for 30, or bananas. Not so impressive. Free the animal is a brilliant name choice.

      • Good point, noah, and why would someone put them together and search 30 bananas unless they already knew what they were looking for. My natural search visits are very high.

      • No, that is not a good point…what?? hahahaha

      • Paul,
        What industry did you say you were in? I’ll explain it to you if you like.

      • “Search for 30, or bananas. Not so impressive.”

        LMAO

      • Paul, do you really not understand?

      • I don’t understand why I’m wasting my time here. I’ve had more interesting conversations with a cardboard box…

      • Ladies and gentlemen, Paul has tapped out before the fight started. Shoulda trained a bit mate.

      • Paul, if someone searches for free animals or animals free, or anything like that, my site is pretty high, and one presumes they are not looking for freetheanimal the blog by me, largely about eating animals. So they get w whif of paleo, unsuspecting. Get it.

        By contrast, why would someone search for 30 bananas, and not 29, 31, or any random number of bananas.

        That’s his point.

        Just trying to help, when I can.

      • Because your site has both those words in the domain name and you a lot of backlinks, so google thinks it’s the most relevant match. Yes, I get it. Very clever. That’s great that you’re getting extra traffic for those untargetted searchers, but that has nothing to do with this.

        noah compared searching for “animal free” or “free animal” which each has two keywords in them, making it much more targeted than simply “30″ or “bananas” which could be anything. If I search for “30″ that is insanely broad and could be for “30 ways to was your socks” or “30 Rock” or whatever….a better comparison would have been to search for “30 bananas” which also has two keywords in it, making it a better comparison.

      • So the person that runs his mouth the longest wins huh? If that’s the case, go ahead, you win!!!!!!!!

      • Now we get somewhere, Paul. This was his point, that the name I chose for my blog results in more natural, unintended traffic than does the other. See his original comment. That’s the distinction and point he was making.

        FYI, I have a Google alert set up for free the animal and I daily get tons of links that have nothing to do with my blog or paleo. If your a real search marketing pro you have an idea of how good that is.

      • Yes I use that all the time actually.

        Your site name is very good and I agree it’s a good way to get unsuspecting traffic, but that’s not where all of your traffic comes from, and 30bad also doesn’t rely on unintended searches for their traffic either. I’m guessing most of their traffic is coming from incoming links, social networking, and word of mouth, and perhaps that goes for your site too, I have no idea.

        Making a comparison as to how popular a site is by only using one example where your site is taking advantage of unintended traffic, and saying that because 30bad also doesn’t have that advantage their site is not as popular, is not a very good comparison. Not to mention that noa gave targeted multi-worded keywords as examples, and gave 1 worded keywords as examples for 30bad.

      • Paul, this why I initially answered you with absolute uniques. In the end, that’s the measure that counts the most and I think if you’ll research it, FTA smashes 30BAD by wide margin.

        Of course, I’m giving you my actual Ganalytic stats and am happy to upload screen clips to prove it when I can, after the debate. I doubt Harley or Freelee would offer you the same.

      • Why do you doubt that they would? I’m sure they would actually, they’ve been nothing but transparent in my experience.

        As far as using compete.com as a reference, let me give you an example of how far off it can be:

        I have a site that gets about 175,000 uniques per month, but compete only shows it as getting 40,000. I also have a site that gets about 10,000 but compete shows it as getting 60,000. It’s all over the place, and shouldn’t be used as a determination of who is smashing who. Same goes for quantcast and even alexa, so all we have at the end of the dick measuring contest is speculation when comes down to it.

      • Paul

        Search my blog for publicly announcing stats. Then search 30bad for the same. and as I said, Harley has said in video that they have about 1,500 members.

      • I’m willing to bet that there are a lot of lurkers that never join. I have a large forum myself, and only about 5% of the visitors are actually registered. That’s just my own experience, I could be wrong about 30bad. Either way, using the number of members as an analytic for how much traffic their getting is not accurate.

      • Also, your assuming that since they may not have a page devoted to statistical info, they aren’t willing to share it. I haven’t told you my dog’s name, does that mean that I’m hiding it from you and unwilling to share it?

      • Traffic accounts for lurkers. They have way less unique visitors. You keep evading that. Have you used the word unique in a single reasponss, yet.

      • I don’t have such a page either, Paul. I post sometimes about what’s going on stat wise.

        Draw rational conclusions, or quench thirst with Kool Aide. I don’t care either way.

      • They have way less visitors based on what? Did you see my post above about compete.com? I used the word unique in that post. Not sure what you’re getting at there…

      • I have drawn a rational conclusion, and I’m trying to figure out where the communication breakdown is occuring between us.

      • Paul

        We’re done. You want to believe 30bad is an original visit powerhouse as a forum as opposed to FTA.

        Believe, man. Just believe. I’m officially letting you off the hook.

      • Did you read my example about compete.com? Yes or no? What am I missing here?

      • Anyways, I actually do have work to do…maybe we can chat later about some more arbitrary stuff :)

      • If your an internet marketer, why is your “wiki” site so crap?

      • Because it’s a brand new site. Figured I’d get a quick backlink for it since I’m wasting my time here ;)

  94. Just signed up to hear the debate live. I hope Steven Prussak is a good ref. After doing a little reading at his site I have some doubts though.
    Here’s the first bullet:
    “Follow your own intuition and, essentially, become your own Guru!”
    Science won’t be prohibited will it Richard?

    • I’ll actually have to side with Steve there, Noah.

      Search my blog for Animals don’t need gurus, then tell me what you think.

      • I read it Richard. Not everyone shares the same definition of guru. By letting yourself become your own guru you can let yourself be the “someone who sells you tantalizing, feel good, sound good lies or incomplete information”. That was what I witnessed in my decade long vegan “spiritual” journey. At its worst, it disregards all science because “it just doesn’t feel right.”
        But retaining your own discernment. I can get with that.

  95. Must be quite the niche market you have there Paul. That is, customers who aren’t interested in new traffic. But hey, I’m not in “internet marketing”. I’m just a guy who depends on his website to bring in new clients.

    • When did I say I’m not interested in new traffic? Did you not see my post above where I said it’s smart of Richard to use that tactic?

  96. We live in a toxic environment. Whether Linda McCartney’s death from cancer was entirely or partly because of her diet I just don’t know–that’s all really.

  97. Off topic, Richard, but this article deserves the inimitable FTA treatment:
    http://dinersjournal.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/04/14/meat-discovered-in-meatless-magazine/

    It seems a major vegan magazine has been illustrating its delicious “meat free” recipies with stock shots of the regular, meaty dishes.

    Yes, for years, Vegans have been patting themselves on the back for how yummy veggie food looks…when they’ve actually been salivating over animal flesh.

    Boy, are they’re pissed. And they’re funny when they’re that way. :-)

  98. I couldn’t stand listening to Harley’s scatter-brained rants or rebuttals anymore. That guy needs some Omega3s and protein, it sounds like his brain must be shriveling up. Oh, but he’s got glycogen! Hah!

    • Kendra aka NeanderTwin says:

      I agree, Harley is illogical and really what did we expect? Each side will claim they won. We know what is best and hopefully anyone looking at having to eat 23 oranges, just for breakfast, would not even have to tune in to listen to the other side of the argument. Jeez, he eats a lot of fruit. I don’t care how much exercise he does.

      • The only logic Harley had was “I do great on a raw vegan fruit diet, therefore it must be healthy!” And I’m sure there’s 1000s of high school athletes who outperform Harley eating nothing but processed food and twinkies, Harley logic says we should eat that diet too.

        I’m glad Richard made the point about getting the same amount of nutrition from animal product vs vegetable product. I’ve had people tell me that broccoli is as good a source of protein as lean beef. Because they happen to have the same %calories from protein. Never mind you need to eat pounds broccoli to get the same nutrition as 3 ounces of beef. Good job Richard, I’m sure the rest of the debate was nteresting, I just couldn’t stand listening to such nonsense from DR.

  99. HOLY SHIT! What is up with that dude’s teeth?

    My grandfather is an 87 year old retired cow and pig farmer. He has all of his teeth, and they look better than captain oblivious’s.

    That alone is enough to make me never want to eat vegan.

  100. Paul Verizzo says:

    Due to a sudden obligation, I could not listen to the podcast. And as much as I would like to support the host, I find $15 for the mp3 a tad high. No, a lot more than “tad.”

    Any chance for some condensed, text version? Or, highlights on a separate thread?

    And frankly, DR’s voice is SO annoying that maybe it’s a good thing I wasn’t forced to suffer through His Whininess.

    • I bet if you shared his beliefs his voice wouldn’t be as annoying.

      • “I bet if you shared his beliefs his voice wouldn’t be as annoying.”

        nor physique skeletally thin.

        But I don’t, so I do.

      • was that a haiku or something? i don’t follow

      • “I bet if you shared his beliefs (I don’t) his voice wouldn’t be as annoying”(so it is).

        “I bet if you shared his beliefs (see above) his [physique wouldn't seem so skeletally thin] (see above).

        {insert fancy brushstroke here}

      • very clever, somebody get this guy a cookie :)

  101. I wanna comment something off-topic..

    You wrote:

    >>While normally I wouldn’t put up a link to a website ranked 1.3 millionth in the world…

    Why so?

    In my opinion, a website’s popularity is not directly related to the quality and credibility.

    • You’re right, Louis. It’s an ad hominem fallacy to assume that because he doesn’t have a big audience that he’s wrong, or whatever.

      That’s not me reason. I’ve many times linked to stuff that way over they years and I’ve been linked to when I had little to no following. The reason is that if I linked up everyone who takes a shot at me then it only encourages suck behavior, hoping they’ll derive some attention. So in those cases, they don’t get a link.

      Of course, it’s kinda moot anyway, since Harley does have a substantial audience via his partner’s bananas forum.

  102. Thanks for the reply Richard.

    Forgot to add: I think Alexa is highly flawed. I wouldn’t use it to measure a website’s popularity.

    • I don’t know about absolutes, but relative wise and changes over time appear to correlate very well with my SiteMeter and Google Analytics data.

      Do you have alternative suggestions I can check out?

      • You know Richard, at times you sound remarkably coherent and rational for someone with such pseudoscientific, directly contra-evolution and anti-scientific beliefs on diet. I suspect this has served you well for the popularity of your site, most raf people seem to be filled with hatred and bitterness.

        But there is no scientific rationale behind your diet. A few test tube experiments on fructose are meaningless, especially since practical samples completely contradict them.

      • Fructose?

        I wonder what you believe I’m asserting.

      • Alexa used its toolbar to collect the traffic data. The problem is, most people (who are not webmaster/blogger/internet marketers) do not install the toolbar. This is why I said Alexa is flawed.

        Alas, I don’t know alternative (yet). Will update you if I manage to find out !

      • They may very well use a value add’ but I have no toolbar but have seen my Alexa rating roughly correspond to traffic.

  103. I met Freelee and Durian when they were visiting NYC, and both of them were very nice to me.

    I had a lower opinion of him before meeting him personally.

    I disagree with him on some stuff, but having met him I believe he’s a nice guy whose maybe a little to confident that what is working for him right now will work for everyone for life.

    He also has a lot to offer, as does Richard.

Trackbacks

  1. [...] Richard Nikoley debate simian-reenactment expert and Dole Food Company shill Harley Johnstone, live, on April 14 at 6:00 PM PST. If I can reschedule my HGH therapy that day, I’ll [...]

  2. [...] looking forward to the great debate! Go get ‘em [...]

  3. Vegan vs Primal Live Debate Thur April 14th @ 9PM | CrossFit-HR says:

    [...] Read more about the debate and the debaters HERE. [...]

  4. [...] Oh, and by the way, in episode 12, Angelo and frequent commenter here, J. Stanton, discuss The Real Health Debate beginning at about 28:00 into the program, audio clips of the debate and all. As I said, this guy [...]

  5. [...] & dairy industry to discredit Campbell and his research. This even persisted to the point of my debate with Harley " 30 Bananas a Day" Johnstone where he unabashedly questioned whether "Denise Minger" was actually a real [...]

  6. [...] Harley Johnstone — aka "Durianrider" — of the 30 Bananas a Day (30BAD) website and forum (posts here and here, with 327 and 452 comments, respectively). With all that activity and comments and [...]