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Vitamin K2, Menatetrenone, Weston A. Price Activator X…or Whatever…It’s Amazing

Among the many hacks we do in this Paleosphere, pushing out crap food in favor of real, nutrient dense food has to be the biggest bang for the buck. As I've blogged before but is hard to overemphasize, nutritional density counts for Big Lots. For review: 4 ounces of liver vs. 5 pounds of mixed fruit. And a loaf of bread vs. an equal caloric intake of beef liver or salmon.

There's really two, maybe three ways to approach this whole deal. As in my post of yesterday regarding the health & longevity spectrum, one approach is to simply eat a good amount of real food, even if unaware of what the bad stuff is. The other, most notably my friend Dr. Kurt Harris' approach, is to be primarily proscriptive; i.e., cut out the neolithic agents of disease (NAD: flour, sugar, vegetable oils). The second approach is obviously superior because it gets you to the first approach anyway, and with more knowledge.

A third approach, however, might be to go with the second, above, but combined with really zeroing in on high nutritional density—focussing on it. This is what I'm gravitating toward. In that endeavor, both Dr. Stephan Guyenet and Ad. (almost doctor) Chris Masterjohn have always been my go-to guys. Over years of reading their stuff, one thing always seems to ring important: nutritional density.

...And it was via both of them that I first became enamored of the nutrient which is the subject of this post. It was June of 2008, when Stephan did his first post on the subject. That led me to Chris Masterjohn's very extensive article on it from February of the same year.

I'm an integrator, a synthesizer...rather than doing anything really original. I hate jigsaw puzzles, but seem to like connecting dots...and all these dots just seemed to fall into place.

At this point, I'm just going to point you to the number of posts I've done on Vitamin K2 that seem to signal that it's somewhat of a "miracle" nutrient. But not really. I don't buy into any of the "superfood" crap, really—unless maybe you're talking beef liver, oysters, mussels, fish roe, etc...and who does that? In point of fact, it's not a miracle at all but rather, something that was relatively plentiful in ancestral diets and is almost absent now—with the possible exception of those of the low-fat paradigm who "cheat" on good cheese.

So rather, let me tell a story.

To preface it, I must mention a dentist of the early 20th century, Weston A. Price, who had a clever idea. Rather than try to find out directly why he had teenager patients with rotted teeth to the tune of 1 in 3, and whom he was fitting for dentures—not to mention the corrective orthodontic work that often needed doing—he set out to find out if there were populations without either of those problems (rotten teeth and crowded teeth).

He found it in spades. You can read all about it for free with lots of photos, courtesy of Project Gutenberg: Nutrition and Physical Degeneration, published in 1939, I believe. Over about 10 years in the 1920s and 30s, he and his wife travelled the world to seek out primitive populations that were out of normal contact and trade with the modern world. That is, they lived by their own means. He found what I consider to be three very important things: almost no dental cavities (about 1 tooth in 1,000 vs. 1 in 3 in the modern world), wide dental bridges (no need for "braces"), and near effortless childbirth (wide birth canals in females). To round things out, he came home and used what he found to correct tooth decay in his patients. That is, he got cavities to remineralize.

Now we're talkin' minerals, the unifying, connect-the-dots theme!

It was in the mid and late 90's when I began to have regular appointments with the dentist and his hygienist. They referred me to a periodontist, a surgeon who specializes in gum issues. Seems I had some "deep pockets," as they call them, towards the back of my molars where cleanings could not get to. (I had both corrective orthodontics—"braces"—as a kid, and had my "wisdom" teeth pulled in college—and loved the "percs".)

...Never did I stop to wonder how animals in the wild can possibly manage...without regular brushing, flossing, cleanings and...dental surgery.

Because I was still struggling along in business, several years away from hitting a stride, I just opted for the cleanings every three months over the surgery that would set me back a few thousand. I had no insurance, and wasn't interested in having any of you—or anyone else—pay my way. ...I'm so fucking weird about that shit...

In 2001, with things looking up, I went for the dental surgery—two of them...one side top & bottom, then the other. It helped. While I still had to use the numbing mouthwash before each cleaning, it was more effective in those deep pocket areas that used to catapult me to the ceiling in pain when the hygienist would probe them with her sharp poker. This went on for years. The surgery was like a reset button. OK, now 3 cleanings per year, and while things are back to reasonable, it's still only a progression until such time that surgery is required again. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

And then in 2008 everything changed. I attribute it to both the better Paleo diet, but also the micronutrient; again, the subject of the post.

I initially went with Green Pastures Butter Oil capsules, and that was remarkable. After a couple of rounds, I went on the cheap and got the synthetic drops from Thorne. Didn't notice much difference either way and so later, I began with the K2 Complex from Life Extension Foundation—that I remained on up until a few months ago. The small gel caps were convenient. But the thing is, some of the luster went out of the whole experience. I seemed to still get calculus buildup on my teeth and they felt "rough" in a number of places. It's especially severe on the inside of the lower front teeth. I would at times stick a wooden toothpick through there and important chunks of mineralized deposits would break off.

I still had cleanings; and while things were actually improving rather than getting worse, there was really nothing to write home about. But still, I haven't had a cleaning in at least over a year. It may be approaching 2 years...and the dentist office has stopped calling to schedule.

I was kind of getting to the point of forgetting about the whole problem, comfortable in the knowledge that things weren't optimal, but at least not totally out of hand, as they were before.

But a few months ago, I ordered the original butter oil from Green Pastures—Price's original formulation. I noticed some improvement over the first several days, much like I recall from the beginning. It's in the smoothness of your teeth, particularly upon waking in the morning. And I thought...huh...why not go the distance? So, when my first two bottles ran out and I re-ordered again, this time I also got the fermented cod liver oil caps. Two caps per day of each and the measurable results have been nothing short of phenomenal.

Gobsmacking phenomenal!

But shit-hell all over the place...it goes to all that bullshit on the Internet, does't it? Yea, some berry from the rain forrest that 99% of the evolved people on Planet Earth never ate is some "superfood" you just can't do without. Well, guess what? The nutrient I've been talking about is relatively prevalent in all natural diets—so long as you eat the whole thing. At the equator. At the arctic. At sea level. At 16,000 feet. And everyplace in between. Just eat the whole animal.

...Or, as a modern person like me, find ways to supplement when you aren't regularly chowing down on bone marrow, organs, fish eggs and the like.

So to conclude the story, here I sit, about 10 years after having gum surgery with before and after experiences of several major teeth cleanings per year and I really don't even find a need to brush my teeth. I can literally go days and my teeth remain as though they were pearls in an oyster shell and my tongue is the flesh that explores them. And my gums have not the slightest hint of inflammation, swelling, or anything of the sort. It is remarkable.

Whatever.

Aside from the weight loss via Paleo that got me started on this track in the first place: this, of all things, has been the most remarkably significant and easy to verify aspect of the whole deal. ...And while supplementing vitamin D has also seemed to have a big impact, I don't really have concrete results I can point too. Yea, Beatrice and I rarely, if ever, get sick anymore, and I seem to be able to kill a cold in a day or two by upping the D sups, but it's simply not so much of a concrete and profound result confounded by variables and randomness as has been the K2, given my history of teeth and gum issues.

Update: 2 things. First, someone mentioned in comments about bleeding gums, especially during brushing. Yes, that too. I always used to bleed when brushing and haven't done so a single time in years, now.

Second, someone wanted the product links to what I use. I didn't put them in there originally because I didn't want people to assume I had any affiliate relationship. I don't. I use the capsule form of these: butter oil, and fermented cod liver oil.

Update 2: This just in, a pretty good TEEVEE video on K2, though it doesn't make any distinction between subforms. But listen for the theme, about K2 being the thing that causes calcium to go where it should (bones & teeth) and not where it shouldn't (soft tissues like coronary arteries). Been saying it since 2008.

I blogged about this book back here.

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Comments

  1. I get my K2 from kefir. Make it myself with whole organic milk.

    • That’s the MK-7 form, not the MK- 4 form made by ruminats. Who knows, but I want to get good amounts of the latter.

      • So if it’s bacteria it always makes mk-7? That’s good to know.

        My understanding is mk-4 doesn’t cross the placenta in a human pregnancy. If our kids aren’t using it in their development it probably doesn’t do a lot for grownups either.

      • Dana

        I think it was Stephan once who indicated that mammary glands produce MK-4.

      • Correction–MK-7 doesn’t cross the placenta. I had a major brain cramp there. Sorry.

      • Jack Cameron says:

        Kefir is made from milk which contains only MK-4. Kefir is fermented for a short period of time which produces some MK-7 but not nearly as much as raw milk cheese which is fermented for a minimum of 60 days. So kefir has both MK-4 and MK-7. (probably as much MK-4 as MK-7 but who knows)

        The concentration of vitamin K2 in butter oil is about five times that of the butter from which it is made (assuming 100% recovery of K2 from the butter) so the vitamin K2 content of one half teaspoon of butter oil (2.5 ml), the recommended daily dose, is equal to the vitamin K2 content of the 12.5 grams of the butter from which it is made, or almost half and ounce of butter. An ounce a day of pasture butter provides slightly more vitamin K2 (MK-4) than a teaspoon of butter oil. Good pasture butter cost half as much per unit of K2, taste better than butter oil, and contains other nutrients that are not in the butter oil.

  2. As this is my first post on your website, I just wanted to say how much I love reading your posts. I have learned so much.

    I am wondering if I am getting MK-4 from cooking with grass fed ghee? I also eat a fair amount of eggs, but not much liver (something I am hoping to start eating more of) Should I be supplementing?

    • There’s no more K2 in ghee than butter. Butter oil in not the same, not even close. It’s but a tiny faction. This was discussed at length in my last post on K2 and the calcium paradox.

      • dr. gabriella kadar says:

        Chicken liver contains K2. Beef and pork, no. Kidneys (beef, pork, goat, sheep) have K2. Brain has it but peeling brain is a bitch. Testicles have loads of K2 as well.

        Natto is available dried and powdered. It is called Mek in Korean. Sold in 200 gram tubs with a picture of the slimey natto. It’s easier to consume than fresh natto. A big spoonful mixed into yoghurt or kefir is palatable. Some Korean grocery stores carry it and for sure Korean Healthfood Stores have it in stock.

      • Thanks Richard for nice share.
        Vitamin K2 is a fat soluble vitamin K analouge that plays a role in bone metabolism. Vitamin K2 is also known as menaquinone. Vitamin K2 can exist in many forms in natural, but the two most common are menaquinone 4 (MK4) and and menaquinone 7 MK7 form.

        Vitamin K2 as MK4 is synthesized by animal tissues and is found in eggs, meat and dairy products. Vitamin K2 as MK7 is synthesised by bacterial fermentation and MK7 is found in fermented foods such as natto.

        MK4 Vitamin K2 has been shown specifically to prevent bone lose and increased fracture risk from corticosteriod use, anorexia and general disuse (leading to weaker, less dense bone tissue). Vitamin K2 plays a key role in activating certain proteins that control calcium metabolism within the body and particularly mineraliation of bone.

      • Thanks jgsupplements.

        You get a pass from normal spam filter promotion because you actually added something above and beyond and ad.

        Thank you.

  3. I’ve been taking a teaspoon a day of the Green Pastures plain fermented cod liver oil for over two years now and have had no respiratory illness during this time. I used to get 3 or 4 colds every year all my life until I changed my diet about 6 years ago. I started taking a small daily dose of high vitamin cod liver oil when I changed my diet, but still got 1 or 2 colds a year up to the most recent 2 years. I have tweaked my diet over the last 6 years, but I suspect the FCLO is the main reason for not getting any colds for 2 solid years now. I’m not going to give it up to find out :)

  4. Similar question to Seth above. Is “butter oil” anything other than ghee? There has always been some mystique around the concept of butter oil, as though it is some magic substance which you absolutely must purchase from Green Pastures. I have nothing against ordering products that I can’t get elsewhere (indeed: I just ordered two bottles of their fermented cod liver oil), but if butter oil is nothing other than ghee, why not just say so? Anyone know? If there is something special about it, I’ll order it, but otherwise I will probably just look into buying locally available ghee (pastured of course) while continuing to eat a lot of hard cheeses and fermented cream.

    • From what I understand, they clarify the butter (Basically Ghee). They then run the clarified butter through a centrifuge. This produces the butter oil.

      Ghee is solid at room temperature, no? Butter oil is more concentrated.

    • butter oil is a very small, concentrated faction of ghee. Essentially, you need to eat a whole lot of ghee to get what you get in a capsule from GP.

      Hey, I make nothing from this. It’s just that I have been there, gone away, come back and seen the remarkable results.

      Who even knows if it’s K2, or only K2. This is simply a concentrated form of a butter fat.

      • Thanks, BigRob and Richard. It actually does sound significantly different. I will order some. I have a very similar problem with one of my molars. My dentist gives it five years before he needs to pull it. Hopefully, I will prove him wrong, with the held of CLO and butter oil.

      • Jack Cameron says:

        The concentration of vitamin K2 in butter oil is roughly five times the concentration of an equal amount of butter based on statements by David Wetzel who started the manufacture of butter oil at Green Pastures. The recommended dose of one half teaspoon of butter oil therefor contains about 2 mcg of vitamin K2 based on the published concentration of vitamin K2 in butter of 15 mcg K2 per 100 grams of butter. Thus the recommended daily dose of butter oil provides about 2% of the suggested daily intake of 100 mcg K2.

        Butter oil producers do not disclose the amount of vitamin K2 in their product. Thus the sale of butter oil seems to be based more on myth than fact.

      • I’ve taken MK-4 since 2008 and I’ve used Carlson, Thorne, and the LEF k2 complex. I got similar results to the Butter Oil caps from Green Pastures in terms of smoothness of teeth, improved measurements of gums at cleanings, thinker stronger nails, smooth skin.

        However, I’ve been on the GP combo FCLO / Butter Oil caps for about a year now and have by far the best results. Absolutely zero calculus buildup on the inside bottoms of my front teeth.

        It’s no myth to me.

  5. Uncephalized says:

    So Richard, is good cheese actually a significant source of K2? Because I can chow down on Dubliner (which, being actually from Ireland, is grass-fed!) by the pound. I could get stuck on an island with nothing but an 80 year supply of Dubliner cheese and water and die happy at 104.

    So if eating it is good for my teeth, all the more reason to have it!

    • Uncephalized says:

      By the way, I have terrible teeth. 4 adult teeth extracted in my preteens, teeth erupted with cavities already forming, crowding in the lower jaw even AFTER extractions and braces, 24 years old and already 2 crowns. So anything I can do to help my mouth out is good to know.

    • It’s the most fatty cheeses that are the best, but it is MK-7, not MK-4, and they are very different, at least in terms of how long they last in your body.

      MK-4 is the form made from grass by ruminants, and it’s concentrated in their butterfat, marrow liver and so forth. It’s in egg yolks and high in fish eggs.

      In evolutionary terms, MK-4 is the one to focus on.

      • Uncephalized says:

        So I should concentrate on the Kerrygold butter, and just enjoy the cheese on its own merits then. :D

      • Well, as I said, this is extremely concentrated. I don’t know the exact dimensions but it’s on the order of 1 pound of grassfed butter makes only a few capsules of butter oil.

      • mister worms says:

        Do you have a source for that? I’m honestly very curious. If I recall correctly, in The Calcium Paradox, the author contacted GP to see what the difference was between their butter oil product and a grassfed ghee like that from Pure Indian Foods and supposedly they couldn’t provide an adequate response.

        That was an excellent book, btw! I first heard about it here and finished reading it recently.

      • That was all hashed out in the comments on my previous K2 post which was about that book.

        http://freetheanimal.com/2011/11/unifying-nutrition-osteoporosis-and-atherosclerosis-may-be-linked-vitamin-k2.html

        The punchline is that the ghee is centrifuged and its only the liquid portion on top that is used for butter oil. The BO in the capsules I use is mixed with bee’s wax, I believe, in order to remain in the capsule.

      • Uncephalized says:

        Yeah, I get that–but if I don’t want to/can’t spend a bunch of money on supplements regularly and would prefer to optimize my food, which I am already spending money on, where should I focus? I’m having trouble finding nutritional information that points to very many foods that are high in K2–calf liver, for instance, shows up as having almost none, as does fish roe on all the online nutrition databases. Is this just one of those things where the databases are inaccurate because somebody didn’t enter all the information?

        Right now I’m aiming for ~1lb of liver a week (switching to grass-fed beef liver from calf liver as it has become available at my butcher), along with several helpings of fish roe at the sushi place I hit once a week. I also cook with liberal amounts of Kerrygold butter 1-2 meals a day, and add it to my sweet potatoes, etc. Problem is I have no idea how much K2 this actually represents compared to, say, taking a capsule. Anyone know, or have any suggestions for me?

      • I think that because K2 is such a new deal that there’s just not a lot of info on concentrations and what there is seems to focus on Mk-7 because that’s where research has mostly focussed, pioneered by the Japanese in terms of bone health.

      • dr. gabriella kadar says:

        Beef liver is not a significant source of K2. Better off with homemade Kefir. It’s dead easy. Except for the part about getting good kefir grains. A friend of mine gave me some of hers. I put them in a 2 litre plastic loosely lidded bucket with milk. Leave out over night then put in the fridge. I shove the kefir grains over with a plastic spatula and use a soup dipper to remove the kefir. This kefir gets the Champansky effect sometimes so it’s bubbly. Today it wasn’t bubbly but it is nice and sour. I drink at least half a litre per day. My friend uses 2% milk. I use homogenized and add some cream. Yum. When lazy, I take a 5mg K2 Carlson Capsule.

      • Paul Verizzo says:

        Kefir grains are abundant on eBay for a few dollars.

        While kefir may well have nice levels of K2 because of fermentation, do you have any evidence of this? I’ve not come across any, specific to kefir.

    • dr. gabriella kadar says:

      All of the cheese made from grass fed milk contains decent levels of K2. Cheese made from feed fed cows, nah.

  6. Richard,

    When you do brush your teeth, what do you brush them with?

    • I like a tooth brushing from time to time, but mostly, I like wooden toothpicks to extract anything between. I do just a dry brush, mostly.

      I have a tube of something I got at Whole Foods called JASON. It’s the fennel flavor. I use that sometimes.

      • dr. gabriella kadar says:

        Waterpik oral irrigator is the best. Some dude invented this in his garage back in the early 60s. I always joke about how male dentists hide from their wives in their garages and work on dental equipment. Anyway, the oral irrigato, waltz around the mouth…. i.e. count 1.2.3. while shooting water between the teeth then do it from the inside of the arch as well. Fabulous. The Waterpik works with the Venturi effect. (look it up on Wikipedia) WaterPik has a video on how to use their device. *this is not Spam.*

  7. I’ve been take now foods vitamin k2 (http://www.amazon.com/NOW-Foods-Vitamin-100mcg-Vcaps/dp/B0013EJ5QM) . I don’t know which mk it is, it doesn’t say, probably not mk-4. Do you think my teeth would benefit from the butter oil/cod liver oil blend from green pastures? Or maybe some other form of mk-4 you know of that’s less pricey… Mk-4 seems to be the more expensive kind of k2, and on the high end of supplements in general.

    • “Do you think my teeth would benefit from the butter oil/cod liver oil blend from green pastures?”

      How could I possibly have any idea? I tried myself the butter oil long ago, than went to the synthetic…decent but marginal results, went back to the concentrated food source, saw big improvement, upped the ante with the fermented CLO in combo and results off the scale.

      But that’s just me.

      And I intend never to use anything but the concentrated food source of it.

    • NOW is mk-7. I wanted so badly to go with them because they cost less and sometimes they even use good ingredients (I have found vitamin D from them before that had olive oil in the capsules!). But, alas. If you look on the label it says the stuff is sourced from soy, which means natto. That’s always 7.

  8. Thanks, that’s the kind of answer I was looking for.

  9. I’ve been taking the LEF Super K supplement ever since you mentioned it back when. I can’t say as I notice any difference, but then, I don’t notice any difference from the daily 7500iu of Vit D or 200mg of Ubiquinol, either; but, I’m pretty sure it’s a good idea that I’m taking all of them.

  10. Natto (Japanese fermented beans) — if you can stomach it; I can’t — is another off-the-charts K2 source, although I think it may be M7.

    On teeth brushing, I now use plain old baking soda with a drop or two of pure peppermint oil. Even without the mint oil, baking soda leaves the mouth feeling very refreshed.

  11. Richard, after your last post on this subject I followed up by reading Dr. Guyenet’s and Masterjohn’s articles. I’ve not been thrilled with my dental health in the past few years – bad breath, a toothache or two and just a general feeling like something took a shit in my mouth. Not a pleasant feeling.

    I’ve been taking Green Pastures butter oil (1/2 teaspoon) and FCLO (2 tspns) daily for just a few weeks now and I already notice some of the benefits you mention. I brush less often, no longer have constant bad breath, my teeth do feel all pearly, and I no longer have the shat-in-mouth feeling. Also, I love the fact that GP puts their test data on the website cuz I’m a nerd like that.

    Just don’t anyone make the mistake of visiting greenpastureS.org in error. What they’re selling, I ain’t buyin’.

  12. mehitabel says:

    Hi Richard,

    I post seldom, so let me say massive kudos on the book.

    Regarding this subject, I post on a few cancer boards and Omega 3 supplementation is a biggie that I’ve looked into — and, personally, have decided against it by my reading of Masterjohn, and to a lesser extent, Ray Peat. The stuff turns quickly rancid at body temp and seems not so good.

    I’m wondering if you are possibly benefiting by some synergy between K2 and Vit A and D in the cod liver oil more so than the Omega 3. Just an idea — no argument intended.

    —————————————————–

    This from Chris Masterjohn:

    http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2010/10/13/precious-yet-perilous-understanding-the-essential-fatty-acids/

    “…Many of these oxidized fatty acids will continue to degenerate into smaller compounds, like a glass that shatters into many pieces. One such compound, malondialdehyde (MDA). MDA is particularly dangerous because it can leave the membrane and damage proteins, DNA, and other important cellular structures.

    A randomized, doubleblind, placebo-controlled trial likewise showed that six grams per day of fish oil increased lipid peroxides and MDA in healthy men, regardless of whether they were supplemented with 900 IU of vitamin E (see Figure 4).60″

    —————————————————————

    And from Ray Peat:

    “Unsaturated fatty acids: Nutritionally essential, or toxic?”

    http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/unsaturatedfats.shtml

    “In declaring EPA and DHA to be safe, the FDA neglected to evaluate their antithyroid, immunosuppressive, lipid peroxidative (Song et al., 2000), light sensitizing, and antimitochondrial effects, their depression of glucose oxidation (Delarue et al., 2003), and their contribution to metastatic cancer (Klieveri, et al., 2000), lipofuscinosis and liver damage, among other problems. ”

    “What really happens to animals when the “essential fatty acids” are lacking, in
    an otherwise adequate diet?
    Their metabolic rate is very high.
    Their nutritional needs are increased.
    They are very resistant to many of the common causes of sickness and death.
    They are resistant to the biochemical and cellular changes seen in aging,
    dementia, autoimmunity, and the main types of inflammation.
    The amount of polyunsaturated fatty acids often said to be essential (Holman,
    1981) is approximately the amount required to significantly increase the
    incidence of cancer, and very careful food selection is needed for a diet that
    provides a lower amount.”

    ———————————

    good health,
    ron

    • My approach is that less is more. This is why I take only the 1 g of CLO per day and a half g of krill.

      • dr. gabriella kadar says:

        Canadians can find Harp Seal Oil capsules. Not available in the U.S.A. Mammalian omega three ratios are probably better for humans. Most of the Harp Seal Oil is exported to Korea but it is available here. 300 x 500mg capsules for $5.99 CAD to $8.99 CAD in the supermarket. Double the price at the Korean health food stores. All of the Harp Seal Oil is processed in Newfoundland probably at the same factory. The it’s bottled with various labels. No big deal.

  13. I think this all sounds fantastic… but, what if your body does not absorb fats like this? I do not absorb fat soluble vitamins (ADEK) so I take them in dry format to ensure I stay healthy. Is there any hope for absorption with this at all or would I just be flushing my money down the toilet?

    • Um, you have to absorb fat-soluble vitamins or you would die. They’re not optional. Without vitamin A alone, you’d go blind, probably within a year.

      Why do you think you don’t absorb them? Is your gallbladder gone? Your gallbladder is needed to process long-chain fatty acids, but you can handle medium- or short-chain OK. And eventually your body adjusts to the gallbladder being gone and you can handle the long-chain better too.

      If that’s not it, and you react somehow to the capsules, maybe you don’t tolerate soybean oil. I find that in nearly all oil capsule supplements. Green Pastures doesn’t use it, though.

      • I’m fully aware of why my body does what it does. It absorbs approx. 20% of all fat due to a change in how my digestive system works. My intestines are altered so that instead of my food/bile being carried together they travel separately and meet up to mix at the end. My alimentary and biliopancreatic limbs meet in the small intestine where they move into the large intestine. My food, bile and digestive juices mix and nutrients are absorbed here but since it makes up such a small portion of the small intestine dietary starches, fats and complex carbohydrates are not fully absorbed.

        I do not believe in any way shape or form that ADEK’s are optional. I never said anything like that. I should have used the word “fully” before “absorb” to make it more clear.

        I take about 150,000 IU a day of dry A (for example) to keep my A levels in a healthy/normal range. I also supplement with dry D, E and K1 in addition to all the the other normal vitamins and supplements. I can take things like fish oil in the format Coromega uses, for example, but I need to take a minimum of 3 per day to day to see any sort of results.

        My point is asking whether the butter oil has a format that is more readily/easily absorbed UNLIKE any other form of other fats to see if there was any way it could benefit me without draining my bank account. I am still researching it myself but thought if someone had more experience with it they could perhaps nudge me in the right direction.

      • Tracy, have you tried getting your fat soluble vitamins transdermally?

      • I have not. I have not seen it used for much beyond vitamin B12. I’ll do some research on it though. Thanks.

  14. FYI, another use for menatetrenone. I actually found this via Wikipedia and found it fascinating. Apparently, vitamin K2 mk-4 aids in the production of osteocalcin. That’s the stuff that makes your bones and teeth strong, structurally. Osteocalcin, as it turns out, is metabolically active and it induces your fat cells to produce a substance called adiponectin. Adiponectin, in turn, increases insulin sensitivity all over your body.

    They’re blaming dairy fat for the type 2 diabetes epidemic. Exactly what they should *not* be blaming. This is yet another reason we can blame low-fat diets for much of this mess. Less animal fat = less K2 = less protection from insulin resistance.

    • Guyenet pointed out a study showing that K2 MK-4 activates the genes, GDF15 and STC2. They’re involved in bone and cartilage formation. MK-7 doesn’t do this.

      As for fat being blamed for everything, isn’t the definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over again while expecting a different result?

  15. Damn Richard, you are a blogging machine lately–and all this after just publishing a book. Were you sent from the future in order to save humanity from the Vegatrons?

    This reminds me I really need to get more K2 in my family’s diet. Unfortunately, the old people here tend to raid the butcher shops of bones for their dogs long before I usually get up, but I’m going to quit fucking around and ask them to reserve some beef bones for me because this is really important.

    Finally, thanks for the link to NaPD, I didn’t realize it was now public domain. Like GCBC, NaPD is something that everyone who takes this stuff semi-seriously ought to have read, I plan to make up for my deficiency ASAP. (I just noticed that it is the Aussie Gutenberg site you linked to, so NaPD is probably still under copyright in the US–don’t even get me started on intellectual property laws–I’m pretty sure FTA could be shut down under SOPA for just linking to those terrible destroyers of US jobs in Australia).

  16. Many years a go I read the Peter Mathiessen book “under the mountain wall” The PNG tribes people have amazing teeth and a diet rich in cultivated carbohydrates and a little meat. I then got very interested in oral health. I had little sugar as a kid and didn’t get my first filling until I moved to university and the fizzy drinks machine we had in my building. I haven’t bought the Weston Price book as apparently the current edition has some missing chapters.
    I asked my dentist for their opinion on the decline in oral health over recent history and they looked at me like I had spoken martian! In my tiny rural town there are four dentist surgeries, four! How many would here be if we went back to human (yes I said human) cavity rates?
    Can’t afford to supplement but I eat liver once or twice a week, marrow and about 2-3 eggs a day.

    • I asked my dentist for their opinion on the decline in oral health over recent history and they looked at me like I had spoken martian!

      Heh, I’m pretty sure this encapsulates the whole paleo movement in one sentence.

      • dr. gabriella kadar says:

        Please don’t tar all dentists with the same brush. Thanks in advance.

      • I wonder where I was tarring all dentists with the same brush. There are smart dentists and stupid ones–ones open to alternate paradigms and one’s stuck in the conventional. From your inability to parse a simple sentence I’m guessing you are one of the stupid ones.

  17. You must have read my mind, I have been waiting for you to write about this issue because the thing I have been most interested in is the improvement in your teeth and gums that you have written about. What is it about women do we just ‘know’ with an instinctive evolutionary brain that healthy teeth are a sign of healthy genes… Since reading Paleo for years now I have always been drawn to this story about teeth. Of all my brothers and sister – 6 of us, my teeth have been stronger except maybe my eldest sister, she got the first lottery of good bones/teeth. I always look at people’s teeth to see their state of health, not the sparkling white fake ones but the quality of those enamels as they are the most prominent evidence of what’s happening hidden away inside their bodies, like an X-Ray metaphorically speaking. Interestingly as a child I was the one who loved fat and bones, I would chew on the bones to get to the marrow! And the fattiest part of the meal I always enjoyed. Now I still love butter and the fat on meat, in fact the fat taste downright sweet when you cook it right. There are two things I have been wanting to get up to speed on and that is supplementing with the right form of K2 and and working with thyroid/adrenal issues. I just follow through on what I intuit my body needs. It is like connecting the dots and seeing patterns, the more you read and reflect, things light up and you know this is right. Another brilliant post.

  18. Hi Richard! Long time fan….quick question. I am about 90% into my first bottle of butter oil. How much do you take daily?

  19. Richard,

    Would you mind linking to the two products on the site that you personally use as well as the quantities?

  20. Funny you just posted this.. About two weeks ago I was digging through some articles on Dr. Kruse’s blog and I noticed he had a post about bleeding gums and a probable link to vitamin k2 deficiency. It was about this time that I had also been digging through your archives and saw something about k2 and teeth. So I put the two together and read all of your articles, the ones you linked to with Guyenet, and I took the plunge and bought some GP Butter Oil and some Carlson’s cod liver, and started a once a week liver meal.

    I’m about four days into this and I noticed after two days that my skin seemed to feel smoother, and yesterday I noticed that my teeth felt a bit more smooth throughout the day without that grainy, gunky feeling you can get. So far I haven’t noticed if any of the tartar buildup has dissolved, but I would definitely say their has been concrete evidence that this stuff works. Maybe I would even benefit more form the GP CLO too. We will just see how this goes.

    • Thanks for the reminder. I forgot to mention about how my gums always used to bleed when brushing and that hasn’t happened in years now.

    • So, I’m a little over a month into the liver, Vit D3, CLO, & BO regime, my finger nails definitely feel thicker and sturdier. My ladyfriend made the comment the other day that my skin tone looks a little different, healthier.. I don’t know if this has anything to do with it, but it’s winter and relatively no sun exposure this time of year.

      I haven’t been to the dentist in a year, and I have some buildup into between the inside of my bottom teeth. I don’t floss nearly as much and I noticed that the buildup has diminished somewhat without the help of flossing, but last night I flossed and a sizable chunk of buildup broke free.. maybe unrelated again, but my saliva is definitely working how it should. The coffee/tea/blueberry stains have lifted, and my teeth are whiter and typically always feel glossy.

      I plan on trying the FCLO instead of the Carlson’s when I run out of the Carlson’s to see if there is an improvement there. Positive results all around.

  21. Jon Cole says:

    My wife and I plan to start a family in short order. I’m wondering whether or not it is safe to continue supplementation of Omega 3s, MK-4, and Vitamin A during pregnancy. I see the evidence from Price’s research with the Inuit, but I’m concerned about birth defects. I don’t have a problem experimenting on myself. However, I do get a little edgy when making a decision about the health of my wife and unborn child. I mean it’s hard to know what to do when the prenatal vitamins prescribed for my wife says, “Do NOT take during pregnancy”. I see similar warnings on other supplements too like D3 and MK-4. I’m sure it’s to guard against lawsuits.

    Not to mention having to deal with the OB-MAG (Obstetrician Magician) and her gang of squirrely squirrels…

    In the end, what is the best advice/suggestion you would give to a prego paleo?

    • You might want to get in contact with people who’ve followed the WAPF diet for pregnant and nursing mothers. Here’s a gallery of their children: http://www.westonaprice.org/childrens-health/healthy-baby-photo-gallery-2011-2012

      • Jon Cole says:

        Thanks for the info! I’ll zip over there in a flash. The reason I posted here because we are getting great results with the HVBO. My wife is not a fan of liver so we’re trying to figure out how to get the “A” she needs without overdoing it.

    • Jon Cole:

      The thing about the GP products is that they’re just food, simply concentrated. There’s no kind of processing like heat, extraction, separating this from that, etc. And people have been taking CLO for a very long time, pregnant or not.

      • Jon Cole says:

        Thanks for the clarification Richard. I paid a visit to the WAPF website and got a little more info. concerning the dietary recommendations. I feel as though I were just being an alarmist.

      • The stuff we hear most often on vitA in pregnancy IS alarmist! Masterjohn has the definitive article debunking that on the WAPF site – the point is that food sources present no risk whatsoever, and – as Rick says below – the risk of deficiency is significant. Good luck with the project!
        (And check out Chelo at Robb Wolf or Healthy Guts on practical tips for pregnant paleos.)

    • Jon, You’ll be experimenting either way. your worried about toxicity but going through a pregnancy with nutritional deficiency ( especially regarding vit. D ) is a bigger worry.

  22. Teeth not only do not decay on a high animal fat diet but in my case they heal! I broke one molar 7 years ago and another one 5 years ago. In both cases the middle of the tooth was exposed. Never had any dental work done! Not only they did not decay and produced no pain, but the broken surfaces kind of sealed themselves protecting them from any further damage. I am on the high animal fat LC diet since 1999. Prior to that, I had a similar case years ago while on the high carb low fat diet. Within 1 month from a breakage my tooth begun decaying, inflammation and pain set in, and I had to have a root filling. That experience is similar to what WAP wrote about healing dental decay with his butter extract “Activator X” alone, without any dental surgery. If I were a dentist I would be very worried… 8-:)
    Stan (Heretic)

  23. Does anyone know if the Green Pastures supplement that is the combined Butter Oil and Fermented Cod Liver Oil is the same dose as if taking each separately? I can’t find anything on the Green Pastures website that says one way or the other.

    Thanks!

    • Yea, that’s a Q I have too, CL. Since I’m now using both products I was intending to email them to see if the two of their 750 mg caps of the BO and CLO blend (1.5g total) is the same dose as the four 500mg, 2 each of CLO and BO. It’s conceivable, since I believe they use bee’s wax for stability but may need to use less for the blend.

      I guess I’ll email and see if I can find out.

      • Awesome, thanks!

      • Richard,

        Did you get a response from Green Pastures regarding this?

      • No, but I found a satisfactory answer by going to their blog and searching the word centrifuge, I believe. Try that. If you don’t find it I’m sure I can dig it up again.

      • Hmmm, tried that but it just took me to a few links of the butter oil product and some labels?

      • Oh, sorry, wrong question. I was assuming it was the question about whether BO is just ghee, basically (it’s not).

        Yea, on that question I did correspond, simply asking whether two 750mg (1.5g total) caps of the blend were roughly equivalent to 2 500mg caps of the FCLO and 2 500mg caps of the BO (2g total). I figured it would, since I think they use beeswax to keep everything as a paste rather than liquid and if combined didn’t need as much.

        Unfortunately, after a couple of email exchanges I could not get a solid, definitive answer. It was a bit frustrating, actually. Seems like a simple enough question.

        That said, I did order the blend, got it last week and have noted no difference in the smoothness of my teeth. but it’s still early.

      • I also ordered the blend and just started taking 2 caps a day since yesterday, it does look like a liquid inside though. Are you taking 2 caps a day? When you say you have noticed no difference, do you mean your teeth are at the level they were when you were taking the cod liver oil and butter oil separately?

      • Yep. But mine aren’t liquid. More of a brown paste, pretty much the same color as the regular VCLO caps.

        Yep, teeth are the same.

      • Justin says:

        Richard,

        On the label for the BO/CLO blend, it says 1/3 butter oil and 2/3 cod liver oil. Wouldnt that suggest that the 1500 mg dose is 1000mg of CLO and 500mg of BO?

      • I did not notice that on the label but yea. Thing is, with the blend, they may not have to use as much volume of beeswax. I haven’t noticed a difference since switching over.

  24. I’ve been supplementing with vitamin K2 for a few months now, and have noticed a great side effect- morning wood. It’s kind of crazy. Before supplementing, I guess it happened occasionally. Now, it’s every single morning (the only times it hasn’t happened is if I get less than 6-7 hours or sleep, or if I drink really heavily the night before). I started with LEF Super K, and am now using the Green Pasture Butter Oil. It’s happened with both. Honestly, this didn’t even happen in my teens (I’m 35 now). I’m pretty sure it’s the K2 as well- Butter Oil was part of Tim Ferriss’s testosterone tripling protocol. Needless to say, I’m sold on K2 for life. The bone, heart and teeth health part is just gravy.

    • Yep, getting that natural teenage alarm clock back is something that many have talked about. I’m not even certain it’s the K2. Whatever it is, I can tell you that you’re good to go for another 16 years at least (I’m just turning 51).

  25. Also, I’d love to hear more about the effects of the Green Pasture FCLO. I plan on getting that the next time I need Cod Liver Oil, as I’ve heard some great reviews of it clearing up Keratosis Pilaris, an annoying skin issue that I have.

    • For me, when I replaced the 1 g per day of Carlson’s CLO I was using in combo with the GP butter oil, it just seemed to intensity all the goof effects, most notably the teeth. But also skin smoothness, fewer wrinkles on the tops of my hands where the skink is very thin, incredibly strong finger and toenails (I call them “tools” now).

    • John-
      I had a wicked case of Keratosis Pilaris that cleared wonderfully after I started taking GP Fermented CLO/ Butter Oil blend. I take the cinnamon tingle gel, about 1 teaspoon a day, (I don’t measure and skip intermittent days here and there). Within a week my skin looked and felt noticeably better. Within a month, all signs of KP….GONE! It’s been 3 years now and my skin is still, well…the way skin should be!
      Just my N=1, but give it a try. I only wish I had this information and K2 when I was an awkward, shy teenager who was told she had “chicken-skin”, I had to wait until 40, but better late than never.

  26. I really would like an answer to why rancid Omega 3 oils are extremely dangerous, except when they’re sold by Green Pastures, which suddenly makes them lifesaving and worth any price.

    I would also like an answer to what Green Pastures “butter oil” really is (other than ghee), which Richard was absolutely, definitely going to get to the bottom of a few posts ago — but then didn’t bother, and is now pushing it again. (I don’t believe you know anything more about this than before, Richard, when it was clear you had no actual knowledge at all.) Regurgitating GP’s sales copy about centrifuges doesn’t count.

    The fact that Green Pastures actually has the gall to call their product X-Factor Gold™ in an attempt to confuse people and profit from Weston Price’s work is at minimum sleazy and should give you more pause, Richard. I’m sure GP’s lawyers have parsed their branding carefully so as to be out of the FDA and FTC’s line of fire, but that is no feather in their cap.

    I do believe you, Richard, when you say you’re not getting paid, but merely not being on the take in this case doesn’t mean you actually know what you’re talking about. Cutting and pasting other people’s posts (and Masterjohn’s interviews) and adding some swear words and (unsupported) conviction doesn’t actually add light, just heat.

    • I didn’t bother, Francis, because either I or someone else posted links to past blog posts on the GP website that answered that question. It’s not “sales copy” but answers to questions previously posed, so why repeat the questions? Stephan has also answered it many times (that it’s centrifuged).

      I’ll tell you what, Francis. How about you just forget about those products, eh? I’m telling you my first hand experiences with them, experiences being echoed by others. You don’t have to pay any attention to it, and I think there’s enough info in these threads for people to make up their own minds whithout your stalwart protection of their “better interests.”

      And anyone could easily do a test if they like. Get a bottle of ghee, get a bottle of butter oil. For one month take a dose of one but not the other. Note the results. Then reverse it, equal dose (since it’s being suggested there’s no difference). I have yet to see anyone report on on profound skin, teeth and gum results like I have been doing since 2008, based on using just ghee.

      I also must reiterate. I began first with the butter oil in 2008. Went through 4 bottles, I believe. Noted and blogged about profound improvements in teeth and gums. Then I went to Thorne, but only for a short time as I prefer the convenience of caps. Then I went to the LEF K2 Complex, for the last couple of years. Things were OK, but not stellar. Then I go back to the butter oil, just about through my 3rd bottle of it. Within the first few days of taking it in combo with regular CLO, I note marked improvements in teeth and gums, so I decide to use their CLO as well and my results go off the charts. I feel ass though I have better teeth and gums than at any point in my life.

      Your mileage may vary, but it appears to me that you have not done any experimenting over years as I have, and rather than do so, you seem to wish to attempt to take pot shots and poke holes in my experience, which I don’t understand. This is all stuff you can easily check out for yourself.

      • Richard, it’s your blog. It ain’t my job to research your posts. I’m just pointing out that you’re not doing any of the footwork that would justify the certitude with which your banging the drum for Green Pastures.

        And I’ve got a friend who swears drinking colloidal silver is a cure-all. He’s done it for years; says it makes him feel amazing. That’s “research” in Richard Nikoley’s book.

        And now you’ve got Stephan vouching for these people! But I thought you got an email from Stephan saying (emphasis added):

        “Hi Richard,

        I don’t recall GP ever providing evidence that their butter oil is what Price used. There is an easy test though. Price’s butter oil was liquid at 70 F, while ghee is fairly solid. The way he made it was by a slow crystallization process that precipitated out all the solid fats, leaving a concentrated liquid layer on top. I haven’t bought the GP oil in a long time so I don’t remember clearly (I seem to remember it being liquid-ish and having a stronger flavor than butter but that was years ago), but if it’s solid at 70 F, it ain’t Price’s butter oil. There are definitely some unscrupulous people selling ghee under Price’s banner and calling it butter oil. The confusion stems from the fact that the term “butter oil” also refers to isolated milk fat, therefore these people can correctly claim that their product is butter oil, even though it’s not what Price used.

        I think you would be doing people a great service if you could get to the bottom of this. I think GP and these other manufacturers owe us a straight answer.

        Cheers,

        Stephan

      • “It ain’t my job to research your posts.”

        Nor is it my job to rewrite everything I’ve already written on the subject since 2008.

        http://freetheanimal.com/?s=K2

        Here’s the 2nd post I wrote on the subject, in November of 2008 after being some months on the GP butter oil:

        http://freetheanimal.com/2008/11/vitamin-k2-menatetrenone-mk-4.html

        “And what of my experience? Well, the K2 is the only one I definitely “feel.” Marked difference in softness of skin overnight, and my wife has since noticed her skin improve as well. Within a few days, all plaque deposits on my teeth dissolved and have not returned. This has been a big issue, as I had gum disease and two surgeries about seven years ago. Since getting off grains (probably the gluten) my gum disease has reversed completely according to the dentist. And now, my teeth are virtually always smooth. I rarely feel the need to brush them.”

        Three years and some months ago and the story remains the same.

        I didn’t dig for other things I’ve said but the story is basically that I cancelled one of my normal cleanings, then cancelled the rescheduled and cancelled again such that it had been a year rather than my normal 3-times per year. Hygienist does her measurements and records the amount of gum tissue and all the numbers are lower. She gets up, calls the dentist in, he examines and says “whatever you’re doing, keep doing it.”

        Thing is, I still had bleeding upon brushing and sensitivity in the deep pockets around the rear molars, but that bleeding and pain ceased for good shortly after commencing the butter oil.

        I went to 2 cleaning per year for the next year. Next one was improved more, the one after that about the same (by this time I was a good while on the LEF product).

        I would still get calculus on the inside of the bottom front teeth, though not as much as before.

        And since I have gone back to the GP product and added in their CLO product, all the calculus has completely dissolved, just like I originally experienced.

        So I have a long track record, I had gum disease, i have clinical evidence of improvement, I have my own testimony as to great improvement—and if you don’t have some modicum of trust given my record of honest dealing, then I don’t know why you’d want to be here.

        “I’m just pointing out that you’re not doing any of the footwork that would justify the certitude with which your banging the drum for Green Pastures.”

        See above.

        “And I’ve got a friend who swears drinking colloidal silver is a cure-all. He’s done it for years; says it makes him feel amazing. That’s “research” in Richard Nikoley’s book.”

        Apples & oranges. We _know_ colloidal mineral suspensions are not bioavailable.

        “And now you’ve got Stephan vouching for these people!”

        I originally learned of GP from Stephan’s original post in 2008 on Activator X. I don’t know he’s ever vouched for it. He said he got noticeable results in improved skin softness.

        “I think you would be doing people a great service if you could get to the bottom of this. I think GP and these other manufacturers owe us a straight answer.”

        I don’t know there’s any “bottom” to get to. A 5 second search, ‘centrifuge’ on the GB blog returned this:

        http://www.greenpasture.org/fermented-cod-liver-oil-butter-oil-vitamin-d-vitamin-a/i-get-a-common-question-raw-butter-ghee-butter-oil-coconut-ghee/

        “In My Opinion, I would never discount real raw 100% grass fed butter . Eat as much as you can. There is no need to heat the raw butter to make ghee. I think raw butter is truly one of our whole sacred foods. If you don’t mind the flavor, raw cultured butter is even better.

        “Butter oil is more controlled in what the cows eat, (speed of grass growth) and it is made without heat as Weston Price Made back in the 1930′s with the centrifuge to consolidate the nutrients. I suspect the plant hormones and steroids to be of most importance in this class of nutrients that are collected in the High Vitamin Butter oil.”

        Seems pretty clear to me they are claiming that their butter oil is something entirely different from ghee in two respects: they use only the butterfat from cows eating rapidly growing grass and they concentrate it as Price did using a centrifuge.

        So I don’t know what else you want from me.

        I’ve given almost 4 years of testimony covering three separate products and comparative testimony with respect to those products (the GP BO oil is far better, especially in combo with their FCLO) and clinical results from my dentist.

        All I’m essentially saying is that of everything, supplementing this product seems to have resulted in the most clear, marked and measurable benefits of everything other than weight loss.

        So give it a shot if you like. If you don’t care to, it means absolutely nothing to me. And if you do and don’t get results you’d expect, feel absolutely free to report back here in this or any other comment thread.

        Seems I’m being as fair and open as possible.

      • Also, it sounds like the do not overheat their butter oil in the process of making it (as is possible with ghee). It would still be interesting to know whether there is a scientific basis for the centrifuging of butter.

        Regarding the “rancidity” of CLO, in the case of the GP product, it is fermented which may act against the effects of rancidity. That’s precisely why it developed as a traditional food: the fermenting of the oil acted as a preservative.

      • The centrifuging needs no scientific basis. It is long established in all fields of science. It concentrates factions. What it concentrates in terms of butter, however, is perhaps open for further identification.

        Or, you can see if it works for you.

        Have you determined that, yourself, Remnant? Have you? Have your bought it, used it, experimented on it for over three years and made many posts about it?

        I’m really sorry, but all you guys really make me grin with your silly posturing.

        Try it; or maybe, shut the fuck up? Just a modest suggestion. I don’t know how stupid and petty you’re looking to others, but given my first hand experience and the petty, ignorant posturing, it’s off the scale.

        If you haven’t tried it, you have not a fucking idea of what you are talking about. Simple fact.

      • I may have been a bit harsh in that last, man, but I have grown a bit weary.

        Sorry.

      • No worries, Richard. I plead guilty to tending to engage in conjecture even when I don’t know what the hell I’m talking about. :)

        I actually ordered GS’s LCLO just days before your posting, and now intend to order the BO as a result of it.

      • Francis, let me guess: you work in academia and haven’t published anything of note for a while. Am I right?

      • looking for that “like” button

    • Jon Cole says:

      Francis:
      I recall the conversation that took place during the last MK4 post. I googled “rancid fish oil supplements” and got a hit from the blog of Michael Eades. He indicated that fish oil will go rancid, even within the expiration date, when it is exposed to air. He also stated that fish oil supplements in plastic are more susceptible to early spoilage. In addition, Eades’ suggestion was to seek out quality supplements that are stored in glass.

      There was also an interesting point made about the source of krill oil. Eades asserts that all companies that manufacture krill oil supplements draw it from the same source- Neptube Laboratories in Canada. Perhaps, the handling of fish oils with their exposure to the elements has an impact on the quality.

      To Green Pastures’ credit- their supplements are sold in glass bottles. Does this indicate better quality? Not necessarily but I think quality control of the product must be taken into consideration when looking at the big picture.

  27. I may have missed it, but can anyone tell me how much K2-mk4 is actually in the Green Pastures butter oil caps? I looked on their website and couldn’t see this info.

    I’ve had trouble finding an authoritative source for vitamin K2 concentration in various foods but I did find an unreferenced table via google on some raw food website called giveittomeraw.com. Seems if you cut the fat off your meat you won’t be getting your K2.

    For what it’s worth I’ll add some more foie gra to my diet and give the butter oil caps a miss.

    FOOD VITAMIN K2 (MCG/100G)
    Natto 1103.4 (0% MK-4)
    Goose Liver Paste 369.0 (100% MK-4)
    Hard Cheeses 76.3 (6% MK-4)
    Soft Cheeses 56.5 (6.5% MK-4)
    Egg Yolk (Netherlands) 32.1 (98% MK-4)
    Goose Leg 31.0 (100% MK-4)
    Curd Cheeses 24.8 (1.6% MK-4)
    Egg Yolk (United States) 15.5 (100% MK-4)
    Butter 15.0 (100% MK-4)
    Chicken Liver 14.1 (100% MK-4)
    Salami 9.0 (100% MK-4)
    Chicken Breast 8.9 (100% MK-4)
    Chicken Leg 8.5 (100% MK-4)
    Ground Beef (Medium Fat) 8.1 (100% MK-4)
    Bacon 5.6 (100% MK-4)
    Calf Liver 5.0 (100% MK-4)
    Sauerkraut 4.8 (8% MK-4)
    Whole Milk 1.0 (100% MK-4)
    2% Milk 0.5 (100% MK-4)
    Salmon 0.5 (100% MK-4)
    Mackerel 0.4 (100% MK-4)
    Egg White 0.4 (100% MK-4)
    Skim Milk 0.0
    Fat-Free Meats 0.0

    • They don’t test for specific quinones, just in general:

      http://www.greenpasture.org/public/Products/TestData/index.cfm

      As you can see, amounts vary by batch, because it’s simply a food that they are concentrating, not processing it in order to put some particular claim on a label.

      Normally, I eschew all of the products that fall into the woo or ‘superfood’ category, but Price’s documented experience combined with my own in this specific case makes me into a believer in this instance.

      • Richard, I wish you would stop conflating the Green Pastures product with Weston Price’s butter oil. That confusion has made Green Pastures a shitload of money, but where is the evidence?

        Stephan has said that there is no evidence that they are the same thing. If you have now discovered that Stephan is misinformed, do tell!

      • I’m not conflating anything. They call it butter oil, they use butter fat from cows eating spring grass like Price did. They process without heat like Price did, and they centrifuge it to concentrate nutrients, like Price did.

        But is it Price’s? Who knows. It could be better. Who knows?

        The reason I went with Thorne and then the LEF was precisely because I could not tell how much K2 was in it. But after a couple of years of not sensing the results I got so easily with the butter oil, I wondered if I was begging the question.

        That is, who say’s it’s K2? Yea, there’s a presumption and I figure it has something to do with it. But as a real food that’s concentrated, there’s a bunch of other stuff and maybe it’s the other stuff, or maybe it’s a synergistic combination.

        Nobody knows. It’s simply for each individual to decide for themselves if my testimony is sufficient for them to try it, and then they decide on that basis.

  28. How many Life Extension Foundation Super K pills were you taking each day? I am wondering how much MK-4 is found in the pills (and how many you were taking) and how it compares to the Green Pastures (even though it seems they don’t have a dosing amount of MK-4 listed).

    • 1 per day. As I recall, 5mg Mk-4, 100mcg MK-7 and some K1 as well.

      • The Super K is actually:

        1mg K1
        1mg MK-4
        100mcg MK-7

        Carlson has the 5mg MK-4. That might be closer to the butter oil. I can feel it on my teeth and skin more so than with the LEF product.

      • Ah, I may have had the Carlson in there for a while, perhaps a bottle. i seem to recall doing 5mg of K2 for some period.

        At any rate, I definitely have the best results with the GP combo of FCLO and BO.

      • I’m definitely going to try the butter oil once my Carlson runs out (I have months worth). I like the idea of all the peaks they talk about in the test data. It’s the benefit of being a food rather than an isolated vitamin. And who knows, there could be many undiscovered nutrients in there.

        One question. Have you tried the fermented skate liver oil? I’ve read it’s different from the FCLO on the GP blog. Apparently the FCLO is catabolic while the FSLO and HVBO are anabolic. I know what it means but I don’t understand it if that makes any sense.

        Craig

      • An, my view is lift heavy thing and force anabolic. Eat some protein.

      • Ha ha!!! You’re cracking my ass up again! If I were to rub anabolic oils on your toes, would they grow?

      • realLife says:

        trouble is nobody understands what you mean by heavy. if I under you correctly its like I seem to be the only old fart and the gym who grunts and groans pushing heavy iron. shit like little old 160lb fart can overhead press 160lbs new personal record, leg press 450lbs and after doing it I’m sucking air as if I have been hyperventilating after interval training and walking around to cool down and people looking at me as a freak. like two days ago someone puts his water bottle and workout book on the seat of the preacher curl seat and disappears, so I move it off and do my reps he comes back and I struggle for last reps and say its burnt done did failure. he gasps 90lbs shit! what I say this is my last thing after 25min intervals and all the machines and I used to pull 105lb so he goes back to 20lbs one handers the big slacker dude still shaking his head not beleiving what he saw. this is not bragging- this should be normal only a few guys are going this far. the only way is to fight it on the way up and it never gets easier! drug and supplement free.

      • No, I’m talking basic protein and hypertrophy.

      • Yep, that’s heavy. Heavy is simply what you can muster in a lower rep range for 2 sets, decreasing weight by about 20% 2nd set. Rep ranges typically 6-8.

  29. Margaretrc says:

    Thanks for a great post. I have ordered the combo capsules for my hubby (he has terrible teeth) and the chocolate flavored combo gel for myself. It’s pricey, but hopefully worth it. I have good teeth, but tend to build a lot of calc between dental visits, so am hoping this helps! Love your blog–thanks for keeping us informed. Peggy

  30. Richard,

    Ever since I went low-carb (Atkins) almost a decade ago, I’ve been the KING of tarter. I mean the stuff is vile and it piles on the backsides of my teeth. I am also a rather huge consumer of both java and tea. If this combo can get rid of that hideous junk on my teeth I just might have to give you a man-hug if ever we meet in person. Thanks for sharing this stuff. Seriously. P.S. Oh, also a big gum bleeder when I floss and when I brush.

    • Will:

      I would recommend getting your butter oil and CLFO, but then schedule a cleaning. Dissolving existing calculus may be individually more than one might ask for. It’s enough and should be enough, really, that it doesn’t come back.

  31. Would taking the Life Extension vitamin k2 and the GP butter oil be dangerous? I have been taking the LifeExtension k2 since reading your blog. When I go to the dentist now he only says I need a cleaning. I don’t get the lecture about how fucked up my mouth is. My teeth and gums do feel better and I credit it to the vitamin k. However you have piqued my curiosity with the GP butter oil.

    • This is why I keep reading your blog Richard. It’s not for the paleo “how to” . I learned that pretty quickly and I know what to eat and what not to eat. It is your informative posts that keep me coming back. Shit like this interests the hell out of me. I also get a kick out of how you make short work out of people who try to fuck with you.
      Cheers,
      Jasen

      • I agree. You’re synthesizing process is an intellectual thrill. Discovering WAPF via my soy allergy was the beginning of what brought me here. Bringing the trunk, the tail, etc into one unified “blind man’s guide to the elephant” is downright exciting!

    • I don’t want to imply that the LEF product was bad in any way. Since I am so sensitive to this issue having inflamed gums, bleeding virtually all my life, it’s just that the results were not as dramatic.

      In terms of the LEF in combo with the butter oil, keep in mind that they used 45mg per day on tiny rats to reverse arterial calcification (that’s in a post of mine, somewhere). There’s no known toxicity level I’m aware of.

      When I first got the butter oil a few months back I still had some of the LEF and so I continued to take it for the couple weeks remaining. So, I wasn’t sure whether the marked improvement was from the combo of the two or whether the LEF was irrelevant. I ran out of the LEF, didn’t get any more, then added the FCLO and improved even more.

  32. I hope I don’t sound too dumb, but I’m wondering if my very recent dental problems are due to participating in a Whole 30 which I’m doing now. I’ve been grain/sugar/legume free for over a year, but never dropped cheese, heavy cream, yogurt or butter. I haven’t had any of those things for 25 days now and a couple of days ago when I was brushing my teeth my gums bled and it also looks like I might have a cavity starting. I say might because I’ve had one cavity in my whole life and it was filled when I was 12. I’ve been blessed with good teeth and gums and hate to think my Whole 30 is causing damage.

    • Have you been eating plenty of good eggs, grassfed livers, etc?

    • It is just too hard to say and I would on a guess say I doubt it and it’s probaly cooincidence, the whole 30 is a good plan in my book, especially for a newbie.

      I just can’t wrap my mind around eliminating processed nutrient bankrupt food in favor of nutrient dense food could possibly cause harm.

  33. realLife says:

    invite formula is fairly good and I use it besides once a week of chicken livers or beef livers with sauerkraut.
    they are doing a trial on K to try to see if it will clear arterial plaque in heart disease as well as it did in mice!

    Peter Attia M.D. has a blog and he is low carb and high fat a fan of Gary Taubes
    he goes over his journey of getting to 7.5% body fat and how it changed is lipids and conditioning. well worth taking a peek at.

    http://waroninsulin.com/how-can-i-lose-weight

  34. Just added another update to the post, with this video about K2.

    http://youtu.be/dNVK1QHegb4

  35. John Rhoades says:

    I starting taking 2.5 mg/day of K2 (Carlson mentatetrenone 5 mg pill every other day) in mid-December. I have to get my teeth cleaned every 3-4 months due rapid to plaque buildup. It’s now been 7 weeks since my last cleaning and my teeth are still smooth as glass. They’re also not discolored as they usually were. Another interesting thing…there is a distinct boundary region in my finger nails, now about 2/3 of the way towards the finger tips. I presume the composition and thickness of the nails changed abruptly about the time I went on the high dose K2. Hopefully the nails are thicker rather than thinner, can’t tell from just looking :-) It’ll be interesting to see what happens when the boundary region reaches my finger tips. I’ll take some micrometer readings before and after, out of curiosity. When I’ve used up the K2, I think I’ll try switching to the Green Pastures butter oil and cod liver oil.

    An aside: Since I started paleo diet about two years ago, I haven’t been sick, except for a mild case of food poisoning. I recently went on a Carribean cruise, and more than half of the people in my group, and all the people I spent the most time with, got a severe cold. I had sneezing and sniffles for about two hours, then nothing.

  36. John, i had a similar experience taking 5mg of Carlson K2 per week. At first, i did not know the change in my teeth was from K2 as I thought K2 would only make them stronger, but Jack Kruse had a blog post with information about it. It’s been a pretty significant change. I may increase my dose and I’m going to get some of the GP butter oil just to experiement.

  37. Hi Richard, thanks for the post. Do you happen to know if the combined capsules would work as well? Is anyone here taking them? I tried to communicate with the Green Pastures folks by email to find out how much of each thing was in the combined capsules as compared to taking them separately, and they either wouldn’t or couldn’t answer. If you could let me know what exact products of each you are taking it would be much appreciated.

    • Peter.

      I emailed as well and after a couple of exchanges, they indicated its about 2/3 to 1/3 proportion CLO to BO. Given they are 750mg caps instead of 500, I would guess the actual quantities are roughy the same, perhaps a bit less. I believe they use beeswax to keep the stuff solid and likely don’t have to use as much when combined. I’m going to try it out next order.

      In other news, Bea, who recently began taking the FCLO along with the BO asks, whets going on with my fingernails? They’re so thick and strong.

      • Thanks for the feedback. Just received my combined capsules today and will report back.

  38. Excellent blog Richard, I love the work of Weston Price.

    I was first switched on to him by Paul Chek.

    I follow a metabolic typing diet and I’ve reversed serious illness using that program.

    Thanks for the information and keep up the good work.

    Steve

  39. Bella Bells says:

    How about natto? Does it have vitamin K2? I, also, wonder if it’s better to just take supplements than consume foods rich in it.

  40. Bella Bells says:

    How about natto? Does it have vitamin K2? I, also, wonder if it’s better to just take supplements than consume foods rich in it.

    • Natto has lots and lots of k2, but it’s all the mk-7 subform, none of the mk-4, just like various cheeses. Significant differences. Good idea to get some of both.

  41. Murgatroyd says:

    What jumps out at me is the cost effectiveness of the jar of Butter Oil/FCLO versus the capsules. Looking at a weight comparison between the two product types, a person ends up paying about 2.5 times more money for the convenience of the capsules. Are there any other overwhelming reasons other than convenience to use the capsules? I figure I can easily add the 1/2 teaspoon serving of BO/FCLO to other food. Is recommended usage just one serving once a day?

  42. Murgatroyd says:

    Some years ago before I learned about menatetrenone I had utilized the MK-7 form by creating it within my own body by ingesting a commercial spore powder used to innoculate beans for natto. The tiny little vial innoculates up to 80 pounds of beans. It was simple to put a very tiny squirt of the white spore powder in a half cup of water and drink it down. At the time I made sure to consume some type of beans. Available info claimed these hardy bacterial spores survived stomach acid. Now I supplement menatetrenoe instead, but am seriously considering purchasing BO/FCLO.

  43. Is herbal comfrey a source of K2? Comfrey is also known as Gum Plant or Knitbone. The indicated uses of comfrey have a lot of overlap with K2.

    Comfrey is known to improve bone density and improve healing of fractures. Applied topically helps with bruising/skin ulcers. Brushing teeth with powdered comfrey & myrrh (anti-infective) was an old remedy for dental cavities.

  44. Are you still seeing the same good results?
    Did you ever try the blend? How did it work?

  45. Hi Richard,
    I came across this article while doing some research on the benefits of CLO and BO. I understand from numerous sources that GP produces the best form of the two, but, being a near broke college student, spending that much money monthly (of more often!) is out of the question. I realize that ghee is definitely not the same as the butter oil as it is not centrifuged, but when combined with a daily dose of CLO, will it put a small dent into the needed nutrients that I’d receive from BO? I’ve read through all of these posts and found so much information but I’m still wondering if there’s an adequate way to get the BO nutrients in a more cost effective way.

    If not, well, it’s always cheaper than skin care products and fillings over a year… Am I right?! :)

    • Kris

      Just go with the Thorne synthetic Mk-4 for now. Hugely cost effective. One bottle should last more than a year.

      Then go get a fuckimg job :)

      • Hah! THANK YOU! If this stuff will keep me alive & healthy through this last bit of exams, sleepless nights, and internship, I will be a believer & biggest advocate!

        I’m now snoping around your site for other goodies. Thanks for the advice, Richard!

  46. I live in Bangkok, where I can procure grass-fed beef and lamb from OZ and NZ. But I have not been able to source any grass-fed organ meats, nor is raw milk easily procured. We do get Anchor butter, thank God.

    I am going to order this GP CLO/BO condo and dutifully take two capsules a day. I would appreciate any other supplement suggestions given these particular limitations. Also, if I am only looking at feed-fed organ meats would you recommend eating them? I do plan to eat a weekly roe blast also, thanks to what I have learned here. I assume you mean the ones that look like fish eyeballs and not the ones that look like tiny orange specks.

    Thank you so much, Richard and Team FTA.

    • Gunnar

      Hope is well in the land of smiles. Been too long for me

      In addition to the GP stuff, I take D, Mag Malate, sink, selenium and 500 mg krill oil. I also take a few caps of Uniliver every few days. Yea, just eat the organs I think. Yep, it’s the little eyeballs.

      I’m going to have another post on k2 in a couple of days.

  47. Thanks, sir. I will get on this straight away.

    Look me up if you plan a trip to BKK. I have been here for four years and won’t return to the States any time soon (unless they extradite me).

    Best.

  48. The government made a push a couple years’ back to transition from “nightlife” tourism to “temple” tourism. They also announced a policy to favor tourism from higher-income countries. But in the wake of two waves of paralyzing political protests and catastrophic floods their new approach is to attract MORE nightlife tourists (from anywhere, presumably) by transforming nightlife areas into heavily policed “safe zones.”

    I have a hardcore job with a regional responsibility so I actually work harder than I did in the States. But my down time in Jakarta, Manila, HCMC, KL and BKK is also a lot more colorful. Incidentally, in the last couple of months there are now three new Crossfit-oriented gyms in town, two of which also offer typical weight-training options for the more Leangains-minded.

    • I had one of the coolest few days in “Block M” in Jarkarta back in about ’91. Super times in Manila as well. Lots and lots of college girls and nursing students.

  49. I have been visiting Asia since 2000 and I would say that Indonesia and the Phils are right up there with Thailand for me. In 15 years I would be delighted to retire in any one of those countries. Jakarta is an onion you can spend your whole life peeling. Never ceases to surprise.

    I think in 2013 I need to resolve to spend more time on the beach. Been in office buildings so much I might as well work in Cleveland.

  50. I am thinking about trying the grreenpastures FCLO, but I just saw on their website that most of the vitamin D in their product is D2. Does that mean they add in artificial supplements back into their CLO to increase their doses?

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