Can Gay or Effeminate Males be Masculine?

There's an implicit contradiction in the title, on purpose. If you're friends with a good number of gay males, as I have been for a long time, you know they run the gamut from "queens" to very masculine, and everything in-between. Sometimes, they can turn it on and off, just like anybody behaves different ways according to circumstances.

But naturally effeminate males might not be gay at all. See the "weirdness?"

My wife and I count a whole lot of gay/lesbian single people and couples as good and close friends, for a long time. We've attended wedding-esque things, and even a funeral. Some have been together for going on 30 years; some are promiscuous, and some, you'd never have a clue about their "gayness."

It's kinda like...people. Go figure.

Anyway, owing my experience, I was interested in this video from Reason I saw earlier today, Joel Stein. Googling around, it seems he likes to be somewhat ambiguous about where he's really at. Here's an example, which is pretty funny.

Anyway, Joel Stein on his Stupid Quest for Masculinity. There's a level of unabashed honesty from both host Tim Cavanaugh and Joel I really like.

"I went into the book thinking that being a man, in reality, was about being loyal, and being present, and being honest," says Joel Stein, author of the new book, Man Made: A Stupid Quest for Masculinity. "And then I found out that's bullshit. Being a man is about being kneed in the face by [mixed-martial-arts fighter] Randy Couture."

Have at it in comments if you wish.

Comments

  1. OK, this is all satire, right?

  2. It was a good piece, I think what he is saying isn’t so much that getting kneed in the face made him more manly, but rather the willingness to risk getting kneed in the face.

    Take any “risk” sport, like hang gliding … you aren’t planning to ACTUALLY plummet to your death, but the risk that it COULD happen makes the activity more appealing.

    Imo the term “safe starch” is the most effeminate thing in the world. We’re talking about starches, it’s not as if there is any real risk associated with eating them, if you eat some wheat you aren’t going to spontaneously combust.

    Feminine – seeking security
    Masculine – taking risks

    It’s on account of the differing hormones. Has nothing to do with sexual preference.

    • +1 rob

      Precisely. That’s the ethic I think he’s talking about.

    • Shelley says:

      I’m afraid that as time goes on we will see more feminine traits and less masculine traits. I think it’s a culmination of many things, but the main red flags for me is the horrible diet most eat now – great for estrogen, bad for testosterone. Also, we have had way too many “therapists” preaching to us that it’s bad to be a cowboy, bad to shoot guns, bad to kill an animal, bad to ride a bike without a helmet, bad to want a break during a 7 hour school day….here you perfectly normal male child, take your Ritalin, have a hot dog and coke, and shut up!

      • Shelley. Don’t even get me started on swimming pools, where to find one over 4 ft required finding a pool over 20 years old. Diving boards? Even on lots of old pools they’ve been taken out. I haven’t seen a high diving board since I was a kid, and used to go off it as much as I could.

      • Shelley says:

        When my 3 year old was riding his bike on the sidewalk and fell, I quickly looked away from him and didn’t move. I wanted him to “tough” it out. My neighbor, an awfully sweet kindergarten teacher, ran to him, cooing, carried him into their house and put a band-aid on his scrape. Groan… I had to pour another glass of wine to keep me from kicking her ass.

      • We’re so torn from the same dirty cloth, Shelley.

      • Why would you “look away from him”? I think I might be reading this wrong, so instead of attack I think I should try and understand what you’re stating first.

      • Shelley says:

        Carlos: because little kids will generally break down when they see their mommy. Funny, not always their daddy, but most definitely the mom. If he was really hurt, I would hear him cry and certainly go get him, but I didn’t want him “faking” hurt just because he wanted sympathy and coddling from his mommy. He could then run to me showing me his little scratch, telling me all about his little adventure, and I would smile back and tell him how big and brave he is for enduring such a wipeout! And then the standard mommy-talk about being careful and all.

        (BTW, I’m ok with boys crying and I still love to rock my 13 year old – though he’s quite big and lanky now and despises it. Thank goodness I still have my 10 year old who loves to cuddle). I am the type of person who loves independence and never needed my kids to “need” me. Sure, they need me, but I want them strong and independent and able to think and feel on their own. I believe that it does a kid no good having a helicopter mom always hovering over them.

      • Context and balance.

      • Galina L. says:

        There are a lot of people around like your awfully sweet neighbor . Anything child does is a good job or a good try. Over-vise his/her fragile self esteem would be damaged. Sometimes it looks like a conspiracy to raise maximum amount of overconfident soft idiots with an iron self-esteem but scared of life anyway.
        I also hate the “raising awareness” culture (it is like a game – what else to find scary), even yoga classes became on a castrated side, because an awareness is raised about possible dangers of doing yoga. A while ago in my gym somebody holding a balance pose lost a balance, hit a floor with her leg hard and broke a big toe. The person was a decent one, didn’t make any noise and didn’t feel like she won a lottery, but since that most my balance poses I do at home because instructors don’t do it in class any longer. World is getting more dangerous with growing number of places with lurking germs and growing list of dangerous activities.

      • marie says:

        There are a lot of lawyers around too -the ridiculous tort system is part of the big push towards ‘safety’ in the last decades and by now the effects have permeated everywhere.
        We can’t bring Kinder-Eggs back from Canada or Europe, for crying aloud! (my kids Love them) -they have actually been banned by customs, there’s a small toy to assemble inside -ooh, choking hazard…because you’re stupid enough to give it to your toddler!
        “So I guess all those Europeans and Canadian kids, none of whom ever had a problem, must be pretty smart, eh? ” …. That ‘Canadian humor’ (sarcasm? what sarcasm?) didn’t go down too well with the customs agent, don’t try it :-)
        ..
        And you Really hit a note with me about kids poor self-esteem Galina : when I work with middle-or high schoolers as part of an outreach program from my college, I can’t use RED marker or , horror of horrors, an X to indicate a mistake. The poor child will be traumatized. Heck, apparently you can’t say to students “you are wrong” (wtf?!)
        Yet, with my College students, even the freshmen, I do all of the above, and somehow they nominate me for teaching awards consistently…and hound me for my upcoming schedule so they can preselect my classes. So I guess they developed a spine in the summer between high-school and college….or could it be that the worst helicopter parents have to stay the f@#$ away legally cause the ‘kids’ are now 18?
        I’ve been raising all “my” kids, both our biological family and the kids I take-in as a specialist for the county, exactly as Shelley describes -acting as if nothing extraordinary happened when they’re hurt, while being careful not to actually walk away as that can be misconstrued by the child as “I did something bad”. This works no matter their background – it must be a miracle, or maybe it’s because kids are very attuned to their parent/primary caregiver, responding to our reactions, and there’s the great side-effect that I can tell instantly if there really IS something wrong.
        I cuddle, I don’t coddle.

      • Galina L. says:

        Ha, the mystery solved! We came to live in Florida from Alberta, Canada, my son was then 8, loved Kinder-Eggs, there were not here in regular stores, but somehow Russian ethnic store was selling it. Guys, if you go and check what is sold in your local Eastern European stores, most likely you will not regret. I personally recommend Goat cheese from Greece, Hot Smoked Mackerel, fish eggs, testy salted herring, vine from Georgia (Stalin’s native land) and Moldova, a lot of interesting deli items, not-pasteurized sauerkraut. Prices are better than in normal food store. I also buy there canned cod liver in a liver oil, mix content together with lemon juice and lemon jest, keep in a freezer, eat one tsp a day.
        Looks like I got carried away – I am a foody.

        Marie, I think it is great you treat your kids with a dose of real life, I think many children turn right anyway at the end because humans are adaptable, especially at an early age, when they left to their own devices, they come to senses . My son just finished second course in University, and only recently encountered a necessity to work hard first time in his life, and feels sort of lost. He wanted to take double major in Physics and Chemistry, because such subjects he thought he could easily grasp (unlike Language arts). Now that double major looks too ambitious. Poor guy doesn’t have reasonable study skills, we put him in the best college preparatory school in our city, tried to motivate him, but he grew-up on a relaxed side – it was too easy at school. That damn coddling environment! Our family moves easily from country to country because my husband belongs to a category an outstanding scientist, and it doesn’t look like my son is prepared to follow dad’s example. I hope he still has adaptation resources, but I am not totally sure now.Probably, while he wants something, he is fine.

      • Shelley says:

        Talk about raising awareness culture, we have an Embracing Our Differences field school event every year with the same 50×30 feet drawings of people of all differences.

        ‘The mission of Embracing Our Differences® is to use the arts as a catalyst for creating awareness and promoting, throughout our community, the value of diversity, the benefits of inclusion and the significance of the active rejection of hatred and prejudice. ‘

        It’s all live in peace, kumbayah singing, with drawings of apples hugging oranges, zebras mingling with penguins, the requisite black/white hugging, etc. Why can’t we all just get along theme?

        I’ll leave you with this quote from an 8th grade student from an extremely advanced arts school in Sarasota, where the coinciding drawing is two naked (very masculine looking) men, one black, one white, dancing on a checkerboard:

        The shell of the oyster hides the pearl;
        why do we let the skin of the man
        hide the soul?

        (Of course, if I had a body like that, I wouldn’t need anyone else. And I think it’s a little pornographic for my 3rd grader.)
        http://www.embracingourdifferences.org/eod0824.html

      • “The mission of Embracing Our Differences®”
        The copyright on differences just made me laugh very hard. Faggetry is the best word for it.

      • Shelley says:

        :-) There’s nothing novel about the faggetry in various levels of embracing here in Sarasota, so they obviously had to copyright the more obscure version of “differences” – the kids don’t need a drawing of it that’s for sure, they get real life up close and personal.

      • Chris says:

        Wearing a helmet while riding a bike is absolutely necessary. One isn’t more of a man because they drive a car without a seatbelt. Even what appears to be a minor fall without a helmet can lead to a concussion, which causes all sorts of problems, among other cranial injuries including hematomas. Lance Armstrong wears a helmet when he rides. Formula 1 drivers wear seatbelts. I agree with your overall sentiment, but I have to say something about helmets and cycling. Sure, taking risks for a payoff is manly, but there’s absolutely no payoff to riding a bike without a helmet.

      • Shelley says:

        I personally always wear a helmet even prior to having a superman moment on my road bike. When I was 15, I also had a very good friend of mine killed by a concussion from being thrown from a bike. I require my 13 and 10 year old boys to wear their helmets while biking. However, it’s not mandatory and, in FL, motorcyclists are not even required to wear helmets.

        The important point that most voters don’t get is it’s not the government’s responsibility to mandate such rules and laws; it’s a personal choice. There are way too many rules and regulations that are becoming overbearing. Taxpayers should not be responsible for any medical attention due to their stupid choices, however.

        OTOH, I believe it should be mandatory for a driver (only) to wear a seatbelt so that in case of an accident, they may be buckled tightly to try to prevent further damage. However, if the riders choose not to wear seatbelts, it’s their own idiocy.

    • “Take any “risk” sport, like hang gliding … you aren’t planning to ACTUALLY plummet to your death, but the risk that it COULD happen makes the activity more appealing.”

      But sometimes it does happen… even to woman.

      http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2012/04/29/bc-hang-glider-death.html

    • Completely with you on that. I did Muay Thai Kick Boxing and American Boxing for a good portion of my life and the risk and reward from both of those sports made me feel like a fucking man. I know it’s passé to talk about masculinity in such a way, but goddammit if it doesn’t feel good to win a match when so much is on the line.

    • marie says:

      I agree regarding the willingness to take risk, but not on the popular hormone ‘effect’ – this is a popular simplification of some very shaky extrapolations from scientific studies.
      We cannot ascribe ‘feminine’ nor ‘masculine’ traits, if nothing else the evidence of our eyes says otherwise. There are ‘effeminate’ men and ‘butch’ women and everything in between.
      These feminine-masculine characterizations are useless.
      There has never been any study to show a Hormone-mediated behavior difference in men and women Outside of the specific time-period from pregnancy through lactation (and it’s not estrogen doing the trick there). No, estrogen does not make you ‘seek security’ or anything like that, though testosterone, in excess, does seem well linked to aggression and violence….. in BOTH men and women.
      Neither is there any anthropological evidence -don’t forget that after breast-feeding, the women didn’t raise their kids, the group did.
      And hey, let’s not forget the Amazons… ;-)

  3. Melissa says:

    Drives home the point made by studies of hunter-gatherers that the only consistant desire women care about seems to be a man’s ability to provide. I was going to attack his pink shirt and pink shirts in general on men who aren’t The Hulk, but then I started thinking about what rich men used to wear. Like the tights on Louis XIV here
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Louis_XIV_of_France.jpg

    Either way, gender norms follow a normal distribution. Seems like Joel is on the far end and there are lots of women more “manly” than him.

    • That’s a good point. Masculinity and femininity is a distribution and neither is limited to gender, and there is plenty of cross over both ways.

      Try this. When someone tries to tell you that gayness is strictly a lifestyle choice and not genetic, say yea, just like hermaphrodites. Typically, they’ll ask you what is a hermaphrodite.

      See, Melisa? I told you. :)

  4. Shelley says:

    Not first, but…I believe that gay males can certainly be masculine in both looks and thoughts, whether or not it’s real or for show, only they know. I personally have a harder time with effeminate males who are not gay, but certainly not masculine, in my subjective point of view. Transgenders seem to fit in that category as well, who want to be girls but still like girls. I don’t get it.

    I probably have an over abundance of testosterone, so someone like Joel Stein, though I’m sure an absolute blast at a wine party, is not necessarily my first choice for someone I would want at my side in the wilderness protecting us from bears. I suppose that’s why I married a senior DI – someone who can easily counter my aggressive-side in a positive way.

    Girls, however, are the same way. I can comfortably turn on the feminism and wear makeup and pumps when I want or toughen up and brave bruises and blood riding the single-tracks with my boys. I do choose to be more masculine than feminine on most days. So, I don’t know why it would be any different for some males to want to be more effeminate.

    How do you feel about girls who act more masculine? I guess that-kind doesn’t fit into Hollywood very well (unless you’re Michelle Rodriguez, who I personally find more attractive than Kim Kardashian).

    • “Girls, however, are the same way. I can comfortably turn on the feminism and wear makeup and pumps when I want or toughen up and brave bruises and blood riding the single-tracks with my boys. I do choose to be more masculine than feminine on most days. So, I don’t know why it would be any different for some males to want to be more effeminate.

      “How do you feel about girls who act more masculine? I guess that-kind doesn’t fit into Hollywood very well (unless you’re Michelle Rodriguez, who I personally find more attractive than Kim Kardashian).”

      Good observation. I think females socially have a lot more leeway to be masculinish if they wish and for males who are by nature masculinish, it’s about the biggest taboo there is. You just don’t go there.

      • OTOH, I have never in my life had the slightest desire to appear anything but masculine, risk taking, wood at will. My education over years has led me to the realization that all males are not like I am, but a lot of them have been friends and I have learned a lot from them in area other than how to look like a little pussy. :)

      • My husband, who is much like you in a great many ways, says real mean are “sensitive, without being a pussy.” :)

        As for naturally effeminate men, gay or otherwise…if it IS natural, there’s certainly nothing inherently wrong with that. But I recall a conversation I had with a gay friend of mine many years ago. He was the type of gay man you’d never know was gay if you weren’t a close friend, and he once told me he had a real problem with the Drag Queen types. He found most of them distasteful because they didn’t seem to really know what women really were, and didn’t seem to really care, either – all of their actions seemed to be an over-the-top parody of what they thought women acted like, and looked like, without bothering to understand what made women, well, women. As far as I’m concerned, my friend was a true man, regardless of what his sexual proclivities were.

      • Yea, Jan.

        I get that. Just briefly, in the lofts we lived in with many gays and lesbians, they were more divergent than average. There’s no real “solidarity.” Some hated others, just like people do, it’s important to understand this.

        Like, I’m an atheist who hates atheist activists who try to shut down Nativity scenes in town squares. Get a fucking life.

      • Oh, BTW, and I’m no expert, but Queen does not necessarily refer to drag. I know one guy other gays refer to as a queen, but he dresses normal, even in suit & tie, but he loves to be a caricature of “gayness,” holding a ciggie & all, and he’s one of the most funny guys I’ve ever met. He pushes it to the max. He’s self deprecating but even more funny is how he disses his partner whom you’d never imagine was gay.

      • Shelley says:

        Unfortunately, it’s taboo even for me. I am not physically attracted to a feminine male. Friends, yes; lovers, never. And I also embrace my sons’ maleness and never encourage any feminine traits. I believe that gay people are born gay; effeminate men, well, I think that may be more of choice, but may be even more a product of their upbringing than a DNA difference (maybe not, though).

      • Chris B says:

        Shelley,
        I think you may have hit on part of it with this statement, “… but may be even more a product of their upbringing… “.

        My husband and I started using the term “Southern effeminate” to describe a certain type of men’s behavior that we encountered fairly often among heterosexual men in the South and much less often in the Northern states. I think is a hold-over from the mores and manners of the older “gentility” that was a part of the Southern heritage from way back.

      • Shelly

        On the issue of whether gays are genetic or choose it (the stupid left/right divide) I’ve always laughed at the false choice.

        Do bisexuals exists? Absolutely. Do hermaphrodites exist? Undeniably. So, if yu can have a human with both sets of organs and, you can have bisexuals that can choose which way or the other, it seems to me that homosexuality is BOTH genetic and chosen depending on the individual and it too, is a distribution.

        On the one end are gays that could never, ever be anything else. On the other end are guys who could live a hetro life but like the flair of the gay lifestyle (Hollywood, the arts, etc), so they choose that. In the middle are those who might go one way or the other, even the return to the other again.

        I know at least one lesbian in the family who lived with a woman for a long time and went back to men. She said, I just missed men.

        The sooner we get over the idea that it’s one way or the other for ever more, the better.

        BTW, I have a 13 yr old male dog that is totally and absolutely bisexual. He has a daughter, but he loves to lick male peepees.

      • Shelley says:

        :-) Yep – it’s certainly something people love to politicize – to me, I don’t really care what people choose since it doesn’t affect my life one way or the other.

        And it’s Shelley, not Shelly – I have to have the balancing E in my life, I’m a Libra after all.

    • I also find Michelle Rodriguez more attractive than Kim Kardashian, but I believe we’re in the minority…see #4 http://www.cracked.com/article_19549_5-old-timey-prejudices-that-still-show-up-in-every-movie.html

  5. Oh, hilarious. Check out the ads on the sidebar…. if still there.

  6. “It’s kinda like…people. Go figure.” Bravo, I just LOVE the way you nailed that.

    Been enjoying your writing more than ever lately, there seems renewed “energy/excitement and honesty” in it. Tough to put into words but I feel it.
    Maybe a result of “Jorge’s change” .
    anywho, keep it going.

    cheers,
    Marc

    • Thank you, Marc. Fact is, I have long wanted to have an entry into a post of its own to express the enormous value I have gotten from gay friends over the last 6 or 7 years in particular. I’ve many times mentioned in various comments here and there but I’ve yet to give them a post of their own.

      In many ways, the values I get from them over time are more varried and diverse than ‘straight’ folks. I guess they’re used to living as outcasts, so they compensate or whatever.

  7. LeonRover says:

    What has happened to the term Camp ?

    I found camp could adequately describe most non-stereotypical expressions of Masculinity.

    There is usually an over-expression of stereotypical feminine behaviour in same, but those have no fears of their essential maleness worry about “camping it up”, when they wish to. Mostly, women have little difficulty in recognising camp from gay or straight.

    Schoolyard bullies have a difficulty.

  8. LeonRover says:

    Edit “those WHO have no fears”

  9. One of my big measures with masculinity is response to pain/discomfort. The other is how they relate to their partner behind closed doors.

    I lose respect quickly for a guy who is Mr macho talking but a huge baby when sick. A man also emasculates himself in my eyes when he is constantly begging for validation from his S.O. (gay or hetro). I have encountered several guys like that who are all hat and no cattle.

  10. marie says:

    “…naturally effeminate males may not be gay at all. See the “weirdness”?
    The weirdness is that the word “effeminate” is still used to describe a gentle demeanor, manners etc. The preconceptions are embedded in our language. I think maybe we lose the ambiguity if we just refer to people by their sex rather than their sexuality.
    And what’s with all the angst about defining what it is to be a man (or woman, for that matter)? More people do not fit the masculine/feminine stereotypes than do, so why do we even try to define masculinity or femininity anymore? Who cares? WHY do they care? (excluding the obvious religious aspects).

  11. Paula O'S says:

    “It’s kinda like…people. Go figure.” – Yep. This.

    Some days I feel feminine and others I like to embrace my masculine side. It doesn’t make me two different people, just the one person with many parts of my personality.

    As a lesbian, it makes me laugh to here some of the crazy assumptions about us (we’re either butch or femme, we hate men etc). You’re totally right Richard, there’s much diversity among lesbians as there is among the rest of society – and that’s a beautiful thing :)

  12. LeonRover says:

    Peer groups have the strong tendency to expunge “shades of grey”.

    Chatelet introduced the concept of the representative, ideal or average – in which the construct stands in or is a shorthand for the variations measured in any frequency histogram. This construct is referred to as identity in sociological terms.

    It turns out that Secondary Gender Expressions do not easily map onto the (almost) binary XX, XY description, but rather are continuous variable on the [0,1] interval.

    Peer groups tend to polarise loyalty to either 0 or 1 and try to persuade/coerce lip service the either end of Secondary Gender Expressions continuum.

  13. I’m really glad you touched on this in your blog. I’m a transsexual male (female to male). It is difficult to define masculinity as it is so culturally and socially defined and I’m constantly reminding myself that I make my own definition of masculinity.
    Sometimes it aligns with the public… and after 30 years of living as female before I started transitioning… often it doesn’t.
    It is such a subjective thing…and I don’t really have an answer except to say that I am so happy to see cis-gendered men who are comfortable to be both feminine and masculine in their behavior because it makes me feel more comfortable that I can actually be accepted as the male I want to be- because if you could isolate my spirit from my body– it would be “masculine”. Thanks for giving me an opportunity to share.

    • Shelley says:

      Reid,
      I have to admit that I simply don’t understand the transitioning from one gender to another, so pardon any ignorant responses or questions. I guess I think it’s an awful lot of work, surgeries, hormones, etc. to change on the outside to fit what’s going on inside. Why not just accept the body and act according to your feelings? Having worked with 6 males at one male-dominated engineering company – no kidding – who were all in various stages of transitioning to females, I never understood why they wanted to be females but they still liked females. Based on this, I’m assuming you are still physically attracted to males – but again, I have no real understanding.

      It will be interesting to see if your focus on changing to a “paleo” diet and muscle building will have an effect on your hormones and naturally make you more masculine without having to take steroids and/or testosterone. I would think that is the safer and healthier route. As a female (with no intent of wanting to be a male), I found that dropping foods such as grains, soy and sugar has certainly brought my masculine traits to the surface, which I’m happy for. It seems to have given me a risk-taking edge that I didn’t have before.

      I wish you the best and can only imagine your suffering/angst over the years has played a heavy toll on you.

      • Shelley says:

        After my workout this morning, I went back and read your bio again, Reid, because it perplexes me. Holy cow, you are 30 years old, 5’6″ and weigh 100 lbs! You already have osteoporosis and suffering from nerve damage. There is nothing masculine about that – socially or culturally.

        Inside you think you’re a man; outside you must look like an anorexic girl who is not doing very well in the health category. I’m going to guess that you have either been eating a vegetarian diet, heavy on the grains/soy, or simply not consuming enough calories.

        It’s a tough, brutal world out there, so I’m going to be honest…you need to “man up” regardless of which gender you choose. I bet you are mentally fragile right now and I would seriously suggest before making any life-changing decisions at this point, to change your diet to a very strict paleo diet and get to strength training now! I would stop dwelling on changing your body with synthetic hormones and start hyper-focusing on what you need to do to strengthen your bones (e.g., Vit.K, Vit. D – you look a little pallor, magnesium, whey protein, egg yolks, etc.). You only have one freakin’ life and you are blowing it because something fucked up and didn’t make your body a man.

        After a couple years of changed diet, changed work-out habits, you will most certainly have a changed body and I would bet a ton more confidence. THEN, make your decision. I’m afraid your past thinking/feeling has done your body/health a very grave disservice.

        All the best.

      • Wow, Shelley: thanks for your comments and your honesty! I love it when people can be forthright, because yes- I’m 31 and I have been destroying my body over the years. I have been on a Paleo diet for 7 months and it is the best thing I have ever done for myself, but even with Paleo living… I experience my body’s slow breakdown when I don’t take steps toward making the outside and the inside congruent. I’ve been struggling with Anorexia since I was 11- in and out of therapy etc….

        But you are so right! The time is now- life is too short and I want to live it to the fullest. SO I am “manning” up. I’m working with a great doctor-taking my vit D supplements and DHEA…strength training etc. (By the way- not that it is a big deal, but I’m totally attracted to women…always have been.) I want to be a Dad someday.

        But yeah- not a lot of hormone production makes you age waaaay too fast. I’m so excited about the Paleo community that I am finding. Thank you for your advice. :)

      • Shelley says:

        I don’t know if I want to scream at you for pissing off your life or cry because you’ve already missed so much. If you were my best friend, I would say the same thing, fix your diet, fix your thinking, and try be yourself. You’re so wrapped around the concept of being a male that is literally killing you.

        When I was young, I too was anorexic – and any anorexic will tell you that it’s not a looks thing but a mental/confidence issue. I’m not sure what happened to change me, it may have been gradual, but seemed almost overnight that I went from a meek, scared little girl to an over-bearing, aggressive woman. I never had counseling and I personally don’t think it’s necessary (I don’t trust doctors). Food choices are the key! This will unlock the proper hormones that your body requires for proper thinking. Realizing that you are a wonderful person with something to offer just as the next person also helps with the confidence. You have got to fix these issues pronto…

        Stop, stop, stop thinking about the body thing for a while and truly ask yourself why you want to “look” like a man – you’d be a man with a pussy, and I think a man’s body is over-rated at times! :-) Again, I don’t understand the whole transition thing, sorry, and I don’t even know you, but you’ve really rocked my boat this morning and now I’m worrying about you.

      • Don’t worry! While I may not have been healthy and have had a lot of hard times- (sounds like you have as well) I would never say that I have pissed off my life or wasted anything, I have a sweet life and I get a lot of joy along with the crap. I’ve done a lot of introspection spent a lot of time in relationships and read more than I should about what is going on with me. I don’t want to clog up the comment box here, but if you’d like to keep in touch feel free to email or friend on facebook. Thanks so much for connecting. ( I need all the advice and encouragement I can get!)

      • Shelley says:

        But, see, there you go again with wanting people’s advice and encouragement. You certainly don’t need my advice; you don’t need anyone’s advice or encouragement on this. Figure it out – you’ll be a much stronger person for it if you work this out on your own (healthcare aside – get as much help as you can get in that area).

        Having been married to a man for 17 years, I can promise you, he would never say to me that he needed all the advice and encouragement I can give him. He would just grab me by the hair, flip me around with my ass in air, and take what he wanted. You need to get to that point where you’re not afraid to take what you want, then I do believe you will have proven yourself “manly.” :-)

      • thats fucking hot

      • Shelley says:

        Oh, mark – you prove my point exactly. men….they can be so much like men at times! :-)

      • Therse’s another way to get to the same result. Woman gets on elbows & knees, spontaneously, right in front of you, nude as a baby. You ask, what do you want? She says, I want you to fuck me.

      • Shelley says:

        Yes, with the same result – the woman then generally gets whatever it was she was gunning for (in my case something having to do with spending lots of money).

      • The money is in my wallet – waiting.

      • Shelley says:

        I’m glad the economy hasn’t affected the money in your wallet; save it for your wife and her “friends.” Buy them some Cristal bubblies.

  14. Is it ok to classify “Gay” people as having a genetic disorder, say like Down syndrome?? Because its definitely Genetic and its “not normal”…

    • No, it’s no more OK than to classify people narcissistic sociopaths because they don’t hold the same values as you.

      This all resides in the field of chosen values and is a consequence of fear that someone might hold and promote values that conflict with your own.

      The whole gay thing is just like the whole gun thing. Fear. I was fortunate to grow up around lots of loaded guns. I since was fortunate to live amongst lots of different kinds of gay and lesbians, coming to know many, but not all, as friends and close friends. No fear there, either.

      • Are you saying it is not genetic? Or just wrong to classify?

      • Oh, it’s absolutely genetic, for some probably most.

        See my previous comment(s) about that. It’s both genetic and lifestyle. There are some, just as there are hermaphrodites, who are wholly gay. Could never be anything else. There are those who are hetro and could never be anything else (like me). There are those in the middle who are basically bi, but could and do go one way or the other and some choose the flashy, fashionable, hollywoodish style over the suburbs of a house, 2 SUVs and 2.5 kids and soccer and baseball practice chauffeurism.

        People choose their own values, but it’s an overlay with genetic undertones. Yea, free will, but within fuzzy boundaries.

        Make some sense?

      • Yep.. My wife is bi… and I’m not one to hold her back – Thank you God!!

      • Yea, but even non-totally bi women are willing to experiment.

        You’re set, but for the rest of you, here’s a clue: YOU LET THEM PICK THE PARTNER, not you.

        This has nothing whatever to do with my current status in life or my wife, just so we’re clear. In the end, that sort of stuff was funnish, but only for a time and when I think back on it, I’m only more convinced that evolution worked things out the best in the large.

      • marie says:

        mark found religion!

      • Shelley says:

        Marie: :-) I’m laughing! that’s hysterical.

      • marie says:

        ;-)

      • No not Religion.. I found God – again. The “sun” once again hath risen this morning – bloody powerful stuff

  15. I don’t mind hanging out with faggots as long as I can joke with them about being faggots. But that’s pretty much a prerequisite for anyone I voluntarily spend time with.

    A sense of humor is the first sign of intelligence.

    I do find it rather disturbing the number of young North American male tourists I see here in Prague speaking and behaving in an increasingly metrosexual non-threatening manner while hanging out with brash, obnoxious female (more often than not overweight and poorly dressed) North American tourists.

    These males never seem to be enjoying themselves.

    • I know the type, Sean.

      I like to call most of my gay friends cocksukers, now and then. Of course, they know how to take that on their knees, or sitting down, or whatever.

      I’ll take whatever they can dish back.

      • In my experience, having a sense of humor is
        as important to the fag community as it is to the
        straight community.

      • marie says:

        “In my experience…” – have you smoked Many fags then, Sean lad?

      • In Czech, smoke is slang for oral sex and warm is slang for gay oddly enough.

        If you do a search for on je teplous (he’s a warmie) the top two results are Justin Beiber, so it’s not just English that has its googlebombs.

        But in answer to your query, Marie, I haven’t smoked any fags. I mean I used to give blowjobs for money in order to pay for school, but it doesn’t count if you are getting paid for it (hint: always get the cash up front).

      • marie says:

        I was hoping to make you laugh Sean, fag is Brit slang for a cigarette.

      • Well, I think anyone whose ever watched some British TV or films knows that ;)

      • marie says:

        Phew! :-)

  16. Elenor says:

    Marie: “These feminine-masculine characterizations are useless.”

    No offense intended, Marie, but that is just so-much-more propaganda. Are you saying there is no such thing as “ill” or “healthy” because there is no clear demarcation between the two? Do you not instantly recognize a man acting feminine/effeminate or a woman acting “like a man”? Do you truly think men and women shop, recreate, interact, make decisions, live their lives, in similar ways?! Do you not recognize the massive differences in crime (in both number(s) and types) committed by males and females? Oh what basis would you call these entirely real and valid characterizations useless?!

    Marie: “We cannot ascribe ‘feminine’ nor ‘masculine’ traits, if nothing else the evidence of our eyes says otherwise. There are ‘effeminate’ men and ‘butch’ women and everything in between.”

    Yes, and there is blue and green, ‘and everything else in between’ — do you therefore say that blue and green are the same color? There is hot and cold, ‘and everything else in between’ — and therefore we needn’t read up about CT, cause there’s no “real” difference between hot and cold — despite the ‘evidence of our’ skin sensing saying otherwise? The existence of a continuum does not in any way negate (or make “unreal”) the outer edges of the Bell curve! The lack of a clear and hard demarcation between one and the other doesn’t mean the two are not fundamentally and truly different. The existence of … data points … that don’t fall on the outer edges of the Bell curve do not in any way negate the existence of that Bell curve, and its *scientific* ‘sorting out’ of whatever quality is being measured.

    Marie: “There has never been any study to show a Hormone-mediated behavior difference in men and women”

    And so, just like ALL the “studies” showing hearthealthywholegrains are good for us, you’re saying there have actually *been* studies anywhere to determine hormonally mediated behavior differences between men and women? Have you ever been around boy and girl toddlers and young children? They are so fundamentally different in their desires, choices, and preferences – are you suggesting that’s NOT genetic?! Do you believe that children are tabula rasa — and somehow are “made” into the very different little creatures they are?

    I’m guessing you’re an academic and maybe drinkin’ the progressive koolaid?

  17. marie says:

    You’re guessing wrong (look further up for my experience with children) just as you make assumptions in your arguments, so I don’t know what to tell you. If it’s important to you to assign specific traits for men and women, have at it, I’ve never understood this.