I Guess James Krieger Wants to Fuck With Me. Let’s Go, James.

My identical comments at his identical postings here (awaiting moderation) and here. I have to draft another post for the morning, 9:30 am EST, and it has to publish precisely to military precision and when you see it, you'll understand why. So, you'll have to read Fuckface Keieger's stupid post yourself, where he tries to impress you with his stock trading prowess by means of overwrought, non-sequitur and just plain stupid analogy. ...Which is no surprise, as he can't even beat himself out of a wet paper sac on the meaning of hypocrisy.

Of course, that moron cunt Evelyn at CarbSane couldn't wait to suck his cock over it (comments).

James is also a master of Latin phrases for logical fallacies.

Laf. If so, it's probably the first time she ever heard of them.

Alright, my comment. Tear it to shreds if you like.

Ha, and yet here I sit, such a fan of "Larry the Liquidator."

But, as Larry explained in that speech at the stockholder's meeting, it was time to cash out. This wasn't breaking windows to "create value," it was redeploying assets to more profitable uses. And if people care to, they can see just how many times I admonished Evelyn to "redeploy" her assets during our exchange, when she dropped 85 comments on my blog in the 2 or 3 Kruse posts I did.

...There's nothing hypocritical about beating up on a bully, taking stuff from a thief, or killing a wanton murderer. Your thinking is laughably muddled here. A better case for hypocrisy and one tougher for me to defend, is that I often rail against various reporters, dietitians, and even researchers whom I often refer to as "grant whores." There, I'm going against CW and institutionalized dogma that has clearly failed; as people keep getting fatter, more diabetic, more unhealthy. The individuals are simply convenient cross-hair targets of opportunity. I don't keep chasing and chasing those individuals.

The problem with the pump & dump analogy is that there are people who signed up for the risks and they're on both sides of the trades. You don't call it right on all your trades, either, James; and sometimes, it was because you got effed for whatever reason by those luckier, smarter, or with better information than you. I traded options full time for about 3 years—credit spreads on the SPX—so I do have a bit of familiarity with the terminology of the square analogy you're trying to force into a round situation. I was totally agnostic as to market direction. At any one time, I'd have as many short spreads as long—they were simply placed at different times, in different contexts.

I'm not arguing against scientific critique. I went after Evelyn, again, because she seems to me to just want to entirely discredit Lustig rather than politely point out whatever errors she thinks he's making while acknowledging a lot of the good he has done like raise awareness—which to me comes down to: drinking a lot of sugar in juices, sodas and energy drinks that don't satiate is very likely to have you eating several hundred calories a day more than you need. Here's an example of a critique I love:

http://evolvinghealthscience.b...

Note:

"Part of the issue is about balancing the argument. I think we can learn a lot from someone like Robert Lustig because he has done the knowledge translation piece so well. Whether he's done it intentionally or not, he has brought a lot of attention to his issues. On the other hand, we’ve done -- at least the people with a more balanced view -- a very poor job at trying to communicate that balanced view. Yes, there may be some signals [that fructose has an adverse effect] or, no, there aren't, or it may be conditional on energy. With all the nuances, we’ve done a pretty bad job at communicating it as opposed to the simple message of "Fructose at any level is poison." We're trying to say it depends on the dose, it depends on the energy, and that’s a hard message to communicate. We've been dwelling on harm. We’ve been saying "Well, it doesn’t support harm except where there is excess energy.""

But then there's all this stuff asserting that he even thinks whole fruit is bad when I am quite certain I heard him say on either or both of the Jimmy Moore podcasts he did that fruit is good (because it has fiber, which satiates).

So, to return to the very poorly thought out trading analogy, you might consider that the stock that just got pumped to $120 isn't worth that, and soon people are going to figure that out, so go short. But you probably don't think it's worth zero (and trying to drive it to zero would likely involve securities fraud, not to mention plain unethical) and probably no less than $80.

So, in reality, the analogy you're offering actually supports my contention as concerns Evelyn. Tell me she's not trying to drive the stock of Taubes, Naughton, Moore, and now Lustig to zero. If you short enough shares and a stock does go effectively to zero then well, you get to go live the rest of your days on a tropical island with luscious brown skinned girls serving you drinks with fruit and umbrellas in them. And your conscience is clear.

A stock only goes to zero when it _should_ go to zero and I assume you know why.

I saw you cross posted this and so I'll cross post this comment as well. I saw mention on the other post about Colpo and whole grains. First off, I'm on good terms with Anthony. Secondly, I told him Martin is cool, but he kinda made fun of me for that. Perhaps in time. On the whole grains issue, this is another area where my thinking is evolving. I used to buy into the whole anti-nutrient thing. Could be something there, but I think it pales in comparison to nutrient density. Grains are plain bankrupt nutritionally, which is why they're often "fortified." Simply put, grains (and sugar) crowd out high quality nutrition.

Compare equal caloric portions of bread to either beef liver or salmon:

http://freetheanimal.com/2011/...

One day I'm going to actually calculate it out nutrient by nutrient. I think it's safe to say that liver is thousands of % more nutritious and salmon hundreds of %.

Even fruit:

http://freetheanimal.com/2011/...

Takes 5 pounds of mixed fruit to equal the nutrition of 4 ounces of liver. So, this is really my focus with Paleo: nutritional density.

To wrap up an egregiously long comment, Evelyn and others like her, who have largely built whatever attention they have on the backs of people like Taubes, Naughton, Moore, Lustig, still haven't figured out that "bad science" is not really what it's all about if you care about people dropping the weight and improving health. Both good and bad science got us into this mess and both good and bad science will get us out. What's important is personality, drive, sensation, conniving, influence, and a whole list of human attributes people pay attention to, in the end.

If you were real scientists, you'd understand that as the meta-science. Yes: good and bad results can be obtained by good and bad science. In the end, the best salesman wins. Thousands of people, including myself, can credit Taubes, et all, with being that one thing that got us on the right track.

And as for Lustig, isn't it so awful that perhaps thousands of people might be questioning the idea of having their kid down a quart or more of fruit juice per day because it's cheap and "healthy," all based on "bad science."

Alright Jamie. Ball's in your court, fuckhead.

Comments

  1. Frank says:

    What’s all this about again?

  2. I can’t wait to see what he comes up with, lol!

  3. Tyler says:

    Carb sane sucking the dick of whoever happens to agree with her fat ass?
    I’m astonished.

  4. Frank says:

    I don’t like carbs much, but I do like sucking dick, I’m in!

  5. Paul C says:

    I used to hang out with the Tim Sykes crowd. Crazy bunch, they are. Personally I couldn’t handle the pressure, the rigged games traders play, the circus surrounding everything, and the general feeling of sleaze, even though the sleaziest were the ones getting milked usually.

    James doesn’t seem to be approaching you in a detached, rational and unemotional way, which makes me fear for his shorts. The name of the Sykes game is calculated risk, and James figured he wasn’t risking much here. What can a fringe fad dieter do to a credentialed expert. If it becomes a circus, all the better, as he lives in that environment anyway.

  6. The Paleo Games

  7. BabyGirl says:

    Crap, if this total drama island keeps up you’re gonna get featured on Get Off My Internets with the likes of Dooce, Mamapundit and that crazy a** Monica Belienko.

  8. Just for the record, Evelyn is a fucking liar.

    When She first started blogging about me, I went in and did a comment or two. Into the ether. Rather than think I was banned, I decided to test. I have abilities. I can use various VPNs, remote desktops on various servers with different IPs. Assuming she did the simplest thing, which is an ip ban, I logged into a remote office server, and posted my comment. Everything went as normal and the comment posted.

    So, I decided to do a little comment, saying all you have to do is tell me I’m not welcome, I respect your property, and no need to ban, I will just refrain from posting. But, in the time it took to write that, from the remote server, as it got published, the first comment I’d successfully posted had already been deleted.

    But, owing I guess to the message, she decided to let me in (I said “I let you post 85 comments on my blog,” among other things) and said I can post all I want and to make her lie all the more obvious, the one she had deleted was then published. She said it got caught in spam. Bullshit. I have a google account and she’s on a google blog and my comments never get caught in spam, and they don’t get published, then caught in spam.

    She’s a fucking liar. We’re all liars. But it’s up to us to determine context and importance.

    • Woodey says:

      What’s awesome about Evelyn (well one thing at least) is that she uses science to knock you guys around. She exposes the fraudulent information you guys unleash on an unsuspecting populace, all with science. It’s not like she’s making the stuff up. People like you open your mouth and say something stupid and she pulls out science backed information that easily refutes people like yourself.

      Your a knucklewalker and she easily exposes it. Obviously cunts like yourself don’t like it, but your beef is with reality and not with her.

      The fact that she makes such an impact with the LC?Paleo movement shows how weak your movement really is. If she was full of crap you would either ignore her or laugh her off, instead you huff and puff and call her names. One lone woman slaps you around like the bitch you are. How does it feel to be punk’d?

      • Woodey says:

        LC/Paleo that is.:)

      • Evelyn is a window breaker.

        She could do far better than popping pimples, but that’s what she chooses to do. Spectate all you like.

        “If she was full of crap…”

        Now that’s a fucking lie. I have never said that in terms of fact. Go look at our comment exchange. In fact, I have praised her prowess, but you overlooked how I put that into the comment.

        Because, you’re a fucking dishonest liar, aren’t you?

        I want Evelyn to advance things. She probably won’t. You won’t either. I have. And I’ll continue.

        Now go fuck off.

      • Michelle says:

        sounds like anger is beating you. Perhaps you and the other party in the debate have to go through a rage and then when your both exhausted lying on the ground you will feel youve got to see each other at the most primal level and feel a bond come from that. Thats what usually happens and at that point the primal bond is so satisfying your not only glad you fought but youve really got to know each other. Sometimes you can feel so deeply at the end that you come to love someone with whom you can dispense with ettiquette ant totally be yourself in all its rawness and they still come back for more. And someone who isnt a nodding dog . At this point often the debate is lost and ou often come to realise it was only a minor point that isnt that big a deal. Hope thats the end of this long road for you both xx

      • BabyGirl says:

        I think Richard sort of left the Paleo movement, no? Isn’t he the sit in the ice bath guy now instead of the evolution is king guy?

        So why are they bitching about him?

    • Just FYI: In the past, I’ve had comments appear on Blogger, then disappear (usually because they contained one hyperlink too many), then reappear some considerable time later when the blog administrator finally got around to retrieving them from the spam folder.

      • As I told him, his comment did indeed go to my Spam folder. Blogger’s spam feature is pretty pathetic. I don’t get a lot of spam, but when I do it’s almost always published and I have to manually send it to Spam. It’s a nuisance to me as I have to check comments in the Dashboard (I prefer my reader) for disappearing comments. It happens quite often with regular commenters too. I’ve never blocked anyone other than Razwell.

  9. Wow… really tough internet talker.

    Poor, poor Richard… getting his poor little ego crushed.
    I know James has been a a razor blade on the personal waterslides of taubes, eades, fred hahn and now poor richard.

    Look Dick, your internet persona and liberal use of four letter words is cute… cuter than a pale full of kittens, really. But try and little substance mixed in with the noise once in a while… switch to decaf, listen to some anya… get into an anger management class or 3.

    Alas, I guess when you have no defense, throwing in some four letter bombs will suffice. Kind of like a male version of the skinny bitch girls.

    Enjoy it richard… if nothing else you are entertaining.

    • Mike:

      And who the fuck are you?

      Can you refresh my memory?

      In the meantime, can you actually take apart my comment? Look, I don’t expect you to put much effort into it, given you can’t get your “personal training” website above 8.5 million in the world, which about any girl in china could do by showing a little tit; but you might give it a try, just for fun.

      Or are you afraid of me, you little pussy?

      • I will be removing your blog from my reading list and un-liking you on Facebook as soon as I have finished typing this comment.

        I realize that you have no reason to care, but before I begin ignoring you I thought it fair to mention why.

        Your aggressive attitude in both posts and comments has worn me down, and your posts no longer contain any information of value. You had a platform to do something useful for your community, but you decided to simply spew bile across whichever person/topic has drawn your angry attention latest. You lack class and character, as far as I can tell you are pretty much Carbsane with different dogma and more swearing.

        I’m happy to have purchased your book in support of your earlier posts, but it ends here for me.

        Thanks.

      • whatev says:

        “Your aggressive attitude in both posts and comments has worn me down, and your posts no longer contain any information of value. ”

        Well said!! This blog is now pretty boring and ridiculous. Fuck off Richard etc etc…

      • That’s fine, Lee.

        You aren’t the first and won’t be the last. Best wishes.

  10. Steve says:

    Housewives of the Paleo faithful.

    So we, your regular readers can fuck off if we get bored with your recent trend in reality television like performances. I get it, your blog, your rules. I don’t however, think you’re going to find a big market for your books if this trend is the future.

    Don’t misunderstand, i’m not a fan of the ‘cunt’, hell, I don’t even know who the ‘cunt’ is. Its just that this blog has been a favorite read of mine, sadly those days appear to be fading fast.

    • Steve:

      I don’t give a fuck what you think?

      Hasn’t that always been obvious. Has it not been obvious that I have always realized that everyone gets to do what they want and the last thing I want to do it try to preempt anyone leaving?

      Seriously? How can I possibly account for that fact that you and a hundred others hate me and a hundred others love me more than ever? I have fucking thousands of readers, man?

      I can only do what I want to do at any given moment and let the chips fall where they may.

      • Steve says:

        I don’t hate you, as I said, i’ve enjoyed your site for some time now. Is that where you’re at, we all either love or hate you now? I’m simply expressing my disappointment with this recent change of focus. I know you’re a fan of your own opinion, i’m simply sharing mine.

        Good luck brother, it was a nice ride.

      • That’s fine, Steve. I evolve, you evolve. I never worry about it.

  11. EatLessMoveMoore says:

    Yeah, if you keep up these ‘roid rage rants you’ll end with about as much remaining credibility as Kruse. Your readers seem to increasingly be populating the lowest common denominator (e.g., “Tyler”, who must really have a way with the ladies. I’d be willing to bet Carter was President the last time he got laid). Do you honestly want to be known as the Howard Stern of paleo? I can’t help but notice Dr. Kurt Harris has been notably absent since the race to the bottom began in earnest. He blogs about twice a year but people still love him because – agree or disagree – he keeps it classy. So stay classy, Richard – or try like hell to get there.

    • ELMM:

      “you’ll end with about as much remaining credibility as Kruse.”

      Yea, right. It’s a revolving door. Go look at who was commenting a year ago, two years ago, to three, compared to who now. Hint: way different.

      I actually know. Nothing new. No matter what I do, the door revolves, which is totally natural.

      Broke 100K visits for the month a couple days ago.

      • LeonRover says:

        “The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
        Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit,
        Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
        Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.”

        Edward FitzGerald

        The WEBNETZ does forget!!!!!!!!

    • whatev says:

      Kurt Harris probably noticed how Richard Nikoley’s blog has become a joke.

  12. Michelle says:

    I also dont have a clue what this is about. Its the sort of article that makes no sense if you dont know what the hostory of the conversation is. It all looks very exciting. Like watching a fight where you dont know what started it and why the hell they are fighting..except for that people are doing various sexual manouvers that court an ass kicking because its bad to stick your head up someones ass right?

  13. Michelle says:

    I have mixed feelings about things being bad for you (shields her ass from the kicking feet and anyone who wants to kiss it).
    I had a stint of eating what nature intended instead of man made stuff. After 4 years my body developed intense cravings for ‘something more’ and became naseuous to the natural foods. If something is bad for you why does your body cry out for it? I concluded that my immune system is smarter than I am. If my body says it wants something in a very loud way…there is a reason for it. Its not my mind or my taste buds its my body that is asking for……….fat…….. sugar….carbs… and meat….and vegetables.
    When I ate very austerely my body had a constant hunger. Animals get this. They eat very plain simple foods and you will find that they have a constant hunger. For example dogs. I never understood it till I experienced it myself. Anyway these are my experiences. rip them apart to prove your set in stone theories are correct and that my experiences are just another example of how to promote your own ideas. Anyone with an open mind, big hugs and lots of love. Tell me what you are learning cos learning you are right all the time is stagnant and boring :P

    • Your body is hardwired to make reproduction an imperative, and to produce lots of nice fat healthy babies it helps to eat stuff that is calorie-dense, broccoli doesn’t get you there. If a woman eats very austerely her central nervous system is going to be in constant rebellion, cause if she conceives at all her children will be scrawny runts who will be devoured by dingoes.

  14. Awesome, Richard.

    BTW, Evelyn’s issues with Lustig have exactly nothing to do with “bad science”, and everything to do with her rage that 60 Minutes did a piece on him.

  15. LeonRover says:

    So ya think ya can counter James with a BlitzKrieg??

    Mmmmmmm – if not, ya can take to the hills, and accept “steep & thorny way to heav’n” of macchia or Maquis.

    You could have made points about “pump & dump”, in a Lenny Bruce kinda way.

    I jest lurve this Lenny quote on the Irish:

    “It’s only the Irish that sell their kids for bottles with a lot of bullshit. The Irish are the most persecuted minority .”

    Except, one (i.e. I) do(es) realise that Lenny REALLY knows (?? no, aware) that others can behave similarly.

  16. Dragos says:

    I guess this fuck will be like the one in Basic Instinct, “the fuck of the century”.

    • LeonRover says:

      Nah, nah.

      This just my shlong is bigger than your shlong.

      Boyz in the Band . . . . . .

      Richards & Jagger . . . . . . .

      “The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about.”

      Wilde.

      • LeonRover says:

        PS.

        “Bunfight at the not-OK Corral”.

        But who is Doc Holliday ? ? ?

        “Do not forsake me, Oh my Evelyn
        You made a promise as a bride”

        Now was that Bride of Frankenstein??

        Jeez, Leon, shut the fuck up.

        Oh, oh, kaaaaaay. Quit while I”m a-head (case).

  17. EatLessMoveMoore says:

    I’d just walk off the field, dude, discretion being the better part of valor and all… I have to give credit to people like Jimmy Moore – at least he knows when he’s out of his depth and just chooses not to engage critics like Evelyn (whining and woe-is-me posts do not count as ‘engagement’).

  18. Interestingly, Lyle McDonald hid “The Mean Forum” and created “BodyRecomposition Support Forums” (a.k.a. “The Nice Forum”), when he started selling books.

    • I wouldn’t necessarily call his Support Forums “nice”. His personality shines through regularly :)

  19. Interestingly, Richard, all these fine folks dissing your blog are still reading it. And i don’t believe them when they say they are “shrouding you”. They will continue to read. It’s like rubber necking an accident. Everyone wants to see what happened. What is Dick going to say next?

    • Kate:

      http://m.imdb.com/title/tt0119951/quotes?qt=qt0468489

      Researcher: The average radio listener listens for eighteen minutes a day. The average Howard Stern fan listens for – are you ready for this? – an hour and twenty minutes.
      Pig Vomit: How could this be?
      Researcher: Answer most commonly given: “I want to see what he’ll say next.”
      Pig Vomit: All right, fine. But what about the people who hate Stern?
      Researcher: Good point. The average Stern hater listens for two and a half hours a day.
      Pig Vomit: But… if they hate him, why do they listen?
      Researcher: Most common answer: “I want to see what he’ll say next.”

    • It’s also interesting to note, Kate, that to a man/women in comments, not a single one has even remotely challenged the _content_ of my respectful comment at James’ place. The vitriol was reserved for my counter-_blog_ entry, outside the comment itself. In some weird way, it’s fine for them to say anything they wish in reference to me, but I do it and it’s just crass and so on whatever. It’s also instructive to note that I started none of this. Evelyn was the first to show up in my comments here. She was the first to go after me in a blog post. Seems most of the people she goes after are men. Where’s the accusation of misandry?

      That’s why I don’t take much stock in their complaints while usually, I do take complaints or suggestions to heart, at least to consider them.

  20. I watched the exchange. You allowed her to speak her mind, and then you spoke yours. It’s called intercourse. If she, in turn, won’t allow you the same, shame on her. I tried to read Evie’s blog. Couldn’t do it. Boring..all the back biting.
    So, we should equate you to Stern? Maybe I should listen to him. . Only time I ever did I wanted to kick him in the nuts.

    • I only bring up Stern because others have brought that up. I do like to shock and stir shit, but I prefer to go after really bad shit that hurts people, not generally valuable folks who help people (like Taubes, Moore, Naghton, Lustig) but like me, suffer from errors now and then.

  21. That’s why I still read your blog. I can handle language. Shit speak? Don’t want it

  22. James writes, ” For every person who claim Taubes’s book helped them (when in reality a low carb diet simply helps you eat less, mainly due to the high protein intake), there are going to be many more who develop an irrational fear of carbohydrates, or who will struggle with weight and fail to understand why, even though their carb intake has been reduce to almost nothing. ”

    It irks me when people like James and Evelyn show such little respect for the intellect of others. I read Taubes’s books, I benefited from them, I don’t take his word as gospel. Had LC not worked for me, I would have tried something else. I would NOT have “developed an irrational fear of carbs …” I have a brain. It took me a while to start using it to improve my health via nutrition and lifestyle, but I have a fucking brain. But that’s just me. Thank God James and Evie are on the scene to help out all of those stupid cunts that can’t figure out why they are fat even while eating VLC and watching Fat Head!

    If the value-slashers want to piss on every LC blogger, let them have at it. LC works for a lot of people, especially people just starting their journeys towards weightloss and improved health. What about all of those people who stumble onto their blogs who get soaked with the value-slashers’ piss, think it’s lemonade, and decide not to do LC? If LC works (as James alluded by explaining his version of why it works), then the value-slashers just did as much harm as they claim Taubes et. al. are doing.

    Each person must take her own steps along the path to health. Richard makes a solid point about the science, both good and bad, being more or less irrelevant. This is exactly why we need to self-experiment, and this also is why (among other reasons) I will continue to read Richard’s blog. He is constantly experimenting and sharing his results. He researches, self-experiments, self-assesses, tweaks, etc. That’s the path to self-improvement.

    If he wants to engage in these arguments with the value-slashers, I’m all for it. If nothing else, it raises awareness regarding the need to wear a raincoat before reading their blogs, least we be covered in a yellow stream of “enlightenment.”

    • Alexandra says:

      You nailed it Kim.

      I get bored of the drama here when it occurs, but you know what, I don’t have to read posts that I know wont interest me. Richard’s endless self-experimentation and lack of attachment to dogma keep me coming back, because there’s always something of value to be found from that kind of attitude. Nobody is going to get it all right all of the time, but we have brains to sift the information.

      As for Evelyn, I read that post and the comment thread, and it took me right back to fucking middle school. Grown women behaving like a malicious band of 11 year old girls is shameful and is the last fucking thing I want to be spending my time on.

    • Kim notes that James writes, “For every person who claim Taubes’s book helped them (when in reality a low carb diet simply helps you eat less, mainly due to the high protein intake), there are going to be many more who develop an irrational fear of carbohydrates, or who will struggle with weight and fail to understand why, even though their carb intake has been reduce to almost nothing. ”

      My problem isn’t with him insulting my intellect, but with making statements like these without evidence to back them up. And I’m not talking the anecdotal kind that guys pimping fat loss programs like him (can’t seem to help Evie, oddly) always have at their disposal. I’m talking about cold, hard evidence that more people are being harmed by Taubes’ message than helped. It’s measurable. Measure it, or keep quiet.

    • Totally agree Kim.

      GCBC is a landmark book regardless, and the book was about the lipid hypothesis and cholesterol hypothesis as it was about carbs and sugar. Taubes has turned into an advocate for CIH, unfortunately, but the book is a modern classic.

      Plus anyone who has the wherewithal to read GCBC is probably not the type to develop ‘irrational fears’.

      What we have in reality are irrational fears of SFAs and dietary cholesterol, mostly held by people who get their information from Dr Oz and his ilk, because they can’t be bothered to do a little basic research about their own health.

      BTW, I found GCBC to be an entertaining page turner, but I guess a lot of people do find it intimidating.

  23. Kim C gets it.

  24. AndrewS says:

    I know people who, like Evie, do nothing but rip on others. From what I’ve seen they do it to make themselves feel better, not to improve the debate.

    “Kruse is insane,” ok, sure, but he got cold therapy into the discussion. Like Kim C says above, the rational among us can read Taubes, and Lustig, and Kruse, and find interesting thoughts worth investigating. They’ve made mistakes (everyone does), but there’s also value there. They’ve extended the discussion.

    Evie has, too, I’d argue. Maybe she’s trying to discard these guys entirely (which I’d disagree with), but then that’d mean she makes mistakes like everyone else.

    Personally, I find excessive negativity unpleasant. I won’t read those blogs. But drama is always fun! I just wish I knew what the hell Richard’s post was about…

    • I linked to the Krieger post that ought to explain it.

      • AndrewS says:

        Ah. From what I read, to paraphrase James Krieger, “There are two kinds of people I hate: those that have no tolerance for other cultures, and the Dutch.”

      • Laf. You’re just trying to draw Sean into the conversation.

        A little bro love, Andrew? :)

      • Plus it’s the bloody Belgians I hate. Intolerant bastard.

        Actually met a pretty funny Belgian a while back. They were moving into the Americanized expat suburb up the hill and planning to send their kids to the American School.

        He winked and said, “Vee are going to turn zem into leetle Americans.” Gotta love anyone with a sense of humor.

      • AndrewS says:

        And, after having read Krieger’s posts, I have to say I didn’t realize that there was only one theory in GCBC. I had remembered a lot of discussion on the cholesterol con, Keyes’ shenanigans, and non-weight-loss-related issues with white flour & sugar, but evidently the only thing Taubes said was “I know for a fact that all carbs are evil”?

        /sarcasm

  25. Asylum Escapee says:

    Long time reader of the Paleosphere here, first time commenter on this ridiculous kerfluffle.

    I started with low carb, than evolved in my thinking and approach AFTER going low carb for a few years gave me the best health of my life.

    I began to add certain carbs back into my diet and experienced the benefits in terms of athletic performance and endurance, thanks to the likes of Dr. Harris and Richard and Melissa McEwen and Mark Sisson noting that carbohydrates as a macronutrient class is not all bad. That doesn’t negate the basic experience of thousands of others though…Low carb dieting works for the sick and obese, because by default it gets people to stop eating processed foods made from flours and shitty vegetable, seed and legume oils…and it gets them to eat the foods mainstream society has demonized for years – red meat, saturated fat, butter, etc.

    I liked carbsane when I first found her blog.

    Now?

    She’s beneath contempt.

    Richard is an asshole, and he’s unapologetic about it. Take it or leave it. Great. I’m a fan, and I’ll keep reading free the animal as I have been for years.
    Evelyn is a misandrist feminist who attacks others, than plays the “DON’T HIT ME, I’M A GIRL!” card…aka “He’s a Misogynist!”

    NO matter how smart, or how scientific her evidence or arguments may be, she still seeks to “win” debates with grade school girl tactics and emotional passive/aggressive behavior, rather then let the truth stand on it’s own.

    Mz. CarbInsane would throw out the baby with the bathwater. Even “pro-carb” paleo folks like Dr. Harris have stated that for people who are obese or struggling with metabolic issues, short term low carb dieting will help these people regain health.

    And Gee….IIRC, that was the original Dr. Atkins approach to recovering from obesity and T2 diabetes! Low carb (no starchy carbs or grains), than you can slowly add those foods back into your diet after you’ve reached your original diet goals.

    • EatLessMoveMoore says:

      People love it when health ‘authorities’ tell them what they want to hear – e.g., Taubes, Moore, Kruse, etc. Money and devoted followers will always head their way. But it’s the critics – the ones who keep the authorities honest – who have the really difficult road. And if one of those critics – in this case, Evelyn – also happens to have some ground-breaking ideas of their own, then it becomes a race to nail them to the first cross. In time, of course, their ideas become accepted knowledge, conventional wisdom. But in the meantime? Anyone know how long it took the Catholic Church to get around to apologizing to Galileo? These are the thinkers deserving of our support – NOW, not five hundred years after the fact.

      • An example of totally backwards thinking.

        Those people are moving things forward, with errors and warts. They are bringing people out of the dark ages.

        Evelyn is a cancer. A Squeakng Pip.

      • EatLessMoveMoore says:

        I still predict you guys will eventually kiss and make up. Kurt Harris and her used to go at it almost as bad as you two – and look at them now. The smartest people in any room eventually come to realize they’re better off on the same side.

      • ELMM:

        I tried. Even via Kurt I tried. In 2 or 3 emails I tried (none responded to). I even made absolutely certain she could see the addendum to my Kruse liar post and the redirect questions I got from Kurt about it, and I invited him to email it to her.

        Instead, she took it as an opportunity.

      • EatLessMoveMoore says:

        In terms of nursing grudges I think she’s ironically not all that dissimilar from Jimmy. Speaking of whom, am I the only one who’s noticed the deafening silence regarding Kruse from anyone/everyone associated with the situation? And coming from Jimmy I find it just cowardly. At least there was no mistaking where YOU stood. Then again, you’re not shilling your (lack of) weight loss success for a living.

      • I can’t believe you guys. We were on a cruise ship, having a conference. I know it hurts for you all to think this, but we weren’t standing around crying because Jack Kruse went one step too far. We were busy, (not to mention having a GREAT time), and there weren’t any news outlets in our conference room. Seriously, though, had there been, we wouldn’t have been watching the news. And what was Jimmy supposed to say? There wasn’t anything to say!

        Now, anybody with two brain cells to rub together already knows that Jimmy announced that he was taking the entire month of May off. Or, did you forget to check that part out? Do you really think he owes it to the “community” to …what? Make a statement? WHAT?

        And then, to top it all off, his wife had planned surgery TODAY to fix a problem she’s had for some time.

        Yah, I am sure he was supposed to tell the surgeons to stop the operation so he could come do a blog post about Jack Kruse, so all his little haters wouldn’t call him “cowardly.”

        You guys need to edu-ma-cate yourselves just a little bit before you go exposing how little you know. Cowardly, indeed.

      • Gharkness

        Thanks for the info and context.

        While many don’t, I always wish Jimmy the best. And I know how some people hate that about me.

      • Just to be clear, when I said “you guys,” I was referring to Evie and her sidekick.

        There are times when Jimmy is right, and times when Jimmy is wrong. But no one can ever say he’s anything but Jimmy. I know you wish him well, Richard, whether he’s right OR wrong. I think most people do. There are just a few that can’t seem to get over the fact he is way too busy being Jimmy to worry about what a few second-rate also-rans have to say.

      • Well, ITW, +1 and thumbs up and props for wading in here, given the history. I like audacity.

        Thing is, everyone knows Jimmy’s personal problems, his biases, etc. Still, he has virtually anyone on his podcast, and from all walks. He even had McDonald on and there’s no one who thinks Taubes is more FOS than McDonald (but he doesn’t make a career out of discrediting him).

        So again, in spite of Jimmy’s problems and inconsistencies he delivers a huge amount of value to people and in a very workaholic sort of way and I respect that. I’d never deny his issues. But most of them, he doesn’t really deny either.

      • My morning coffee is still kicking in, but did I just read that Moore, Kruse and Taubes are the establishment authorities and that poor, misunderstood Evelyn is the iconclast? Evie isn’t pumping out groundbreaking ideas. Not one. She and her acolytes fancy her something of a nutritional Socrates, but what I’m seeing is a person who is so disillusioned and frustrated at her own inability to control her weight despite all her purported expertise that she’s become a – perhaps unwitting – nihilist. “No one has it right! It’s futile…” Meanwhile, as she barks, the caravan passes and there are hands-on practitioners out doing stuff in the world that helps people and generates a massive body of evidence for us to examine. Contrast Evie’s “work” as digital gadfly and the results that the City of Reno is getting with their staff with the aid of Robb Wolf. Contrast her limited audience with the number of people who would never have considered questioning the Diet Heart Hypothesis if it weren’t for a true iconclast – i.e. Taubes. So he only had it half right (it’s not the fat!)? He added something to our body of knowledge about the subject and had the guts to publish it adorned with his own name and countenance. Of course his errors need correcting, but anyone who has witnessed the vile stream of epithets she’s unleashed at him over the years knows that her vendetta is much more than academic disagreement. She’s done her level best to attack his character repeatedly, and will now do the same with Lustig. When challenged on this behaviour she’ll run and hide behind some notion of simply critiquing his work in the name of scientific progress. While James Krieger is recounting the litany of logical fallacies everyone else is guilty of, perhaps he’ll muster up the stones to note that his favorite is an expert in the ad hominem.

      • This is, by far, my favorite comment in the entire thread. Thank you, Gene.

      • “While James Krieger is recounting the litany of logical fallacies everyone else is guilty of, perhaps he’ll muster up the stones to note that his favorite is an expert in the ad hominem.”

        Yes, brilliant stuff.

  26. I read David Despain’s interview with Dr. Sievenpiper over at Evolving Health, and I noticed something Sievenpiper said in the interview:

    “The 50th percentile for intake in the United States is 49g per day, which is just a little less than 10 percent per day of energy from fructose. We’re talking of a six-fold difference in what people are really consuming and what these models are feeding. If you look at even the 95th percentile for intake of fructose in US population from using NHANES data, the 95 percentile for intake for NHANES for fructose consumes 87g of sugar or little less than 20 percent energy.”

    Does anyone have the NHANES data for easy reference?

    I’m going to go out on a limb and say that there is no possible way that the 95th percentile for intake of fructose in the US is only 87g of sugar (or did he mean just fructose here?) per day. No chance of it, whatsoever.

    I’ve monitored sugar intake around me — and I’m surrounded by paleo types AND SAD types everywhere, on a regular basis, even when I travel. I see many of the same people wherever I am, on a fairly consistent basis, except when I travel to Europe.

    The average 20 ounce bottle of Coke has 65grams of sugar. In one bottle. The average cup of orange juice has ~30 grams of sugar.

    Yes, both of these are not 100% fructose carbs, but I’m going to venture that the NHANES data that says 87g (lets say of fructose) sounds a bit…off. HFCS is, what, 55% fructose and 45% glucose? 65 grams of HFCS in 20ounce bottle of coke = 36 grams of fructose. 95% percentile = 87 grams (of fructose?) or 2.5 bottles of coke a day, ignoring all of the other foods that are sweetened in some way or contain sugar?

    This doesn’t seem feasible to me, seeing what the average SAD dieter is drinking with their breakfasts and dinners.

    Am I reading it wrong?

    • Do you really think that 5% of the population drinks at least 2.5 bottles of coke per day?

      • That’s just one possible outcome, and I know of entire offices of customers in a variety of industries where I see a good portion drinking down quite a bit of soda bottles a piece.

        Of course, that’s anecdotal, but I’m still surprised by the figures in the study.

      • CDM, judging by what I see in shopping carts, people drink a lot of non diet soda and they drnk quite a lot of it.

        Stephan has done sme good posts on the massive average consumption of sugar.

        However, I’m open to the possibility that it’s not fattening for some, those who have good hormonal signaling and hormonally account for those calories in some way. But for many people, it seems that liquid calories don’t satiate and it ends up n excess daily’ on average.

      • I should mention that I do have a small % of my income coming from a small share in a convenient store, but it’s in a depressed neighborhood and I wouldn’t by any means try to attribute what the poor folk buy to what the average American buys, but I can tell you that just in that neighborhood of that town, there is probably a 3:1 ratio of sugar soda to diet soda bought there.

        Also, I don’t necessarily think that fructose/sucrose is bad for everyone — like Richard says, it may be bad for people with messed up hormonal signalling, etc.

      • Richard, based on my own observations, I see next to nobody drinking sugared soda in any amount. That’s why I don’t see the top 5 %ile consuming 90 grams of fructose is too far from reality. And I don’t particularly work to surround myself with health-conscious hippies.

  27. richard,i think you have brain freeze(too many retarded experiments).you would lambaste people for calling out bad(read “wrong”) science?they are not giving credit for the good parts?they are to “mean “when critising?

    step back into the cooler,it,s time for you to chill.

    cj

  28. Charlie B says:

    Found this place after reading that Krieger post. Oh my God! This blog is like a pornographic clown show – fascinating in a creepy and repulsive sort of fashion.

    Seems that Dick went on a diet, lost a lot of weight, got himself a blog, and then found out that he has anger management issues. Congratulations on the weight loss! Now maybe it is time to get over yourself…..

    • Hey, Charlie B

      You stupid fuck.

      I’ve been blogging since 2003, all archives intact, over 3,000 posts and 50,000 comments. Have your butt buddy Kreiger check out my options trading posts from the 2005-06 era.

      I began blogging about fat loss in 2007.

      • IT, FUNNY TO ME HOW THE INTERNET GIVES PEOPLE SUCH BRAVADO.i,m pretty sure face to face you would never use your”tough guy”lanaguage on people.you certainly would have experienced many beat downs by now.you don,t look like someone who could handle himself.i,,m positive you wouldn,t be calling me anything nasty to my face,you would shit a brick at the size of me and your true nature would rise up.
        i,d like to see you call Evelyn a cunt to her face,i konw that would never happen.without the sheild of your computer screen you would polite and normal,as it should be.

        so how about acting online as you would if the person was actually in the room with you.you won,t come off as such an angry retarded wimpy DICK.

      • I’ll make you a deal, CJ.

        Rewrite that comment in a reasonably coherent manner with proper punctuation and I will reply respectfully. You do make at least a point or two I’d like to address.

        But it’s up to you. You give an effort, I’ll return it,

      • i know my writing sucks but you were able to read and understand it.i will let stay as is.

        i apoligize for the caps,didn,t notice until i posted.

        you do see what i,m saying don,t you?i,m as guilty of it as the next person.i,m sure i would not rip on you face to face like i do when i write on the internet.it is a retarded practice and i,m going to work on not doing it any longer.

      • Ok, fair enough CJ.

        Do you know I’ve been at this since 2003? And before that, since about 1993 on USENET and such? Any idea how many people I’ve met face to face? Are you aware of the standing room only crowd at Ancestral Health Symposium at UCLA last summer who packed the room to see me, meet me, participate in Q&A?

        No, of course I don’t behave in public as I _entertain_ on my blog. Who does? Would Stern toss lesbian hookers in your face? Would Carlin shout 7 words at you?

        You lack perspective. This is a very popular blog that gets over 3 million page views per year and most posts break 100 comments and many, many hundreds of comments. You think they’re idiots ’cause they like it here? They’re here a lot, you just showed up and you have something to enlighten them about?

        I know exactly what my role is, man, and everyone who has ever met me in person knows that the blog is the blog and real life is real life.

        It’s nothing more than that. If you don’t like it, that’s fine.

      • o.k.i didn,t realize there was such a seperation for you.i think i,m just moveing beyond all the bullshit./the lack of respect i see between people everywhere is kinda disappointing.i,m just finding all these blogs are getting too far away from my tastes.
        i had removed all my food blogs from my favorite folder as i was not enjoying reading them anymore.i just recently looked a bunch up again.same old story.everyone is ripping everyone and not a whole lot of progress.

      • CJ

        That’s good news. If you’re good you’re good. A huge number of my commenters have zero need of my advice, they just like hanging out, and Sean, Nigel, Marie and Kate just love it when I say cunt.

        More than that, they have a thing for each other with is a cool thing to have in comments.

        Be well and cheers.

  29. I haven’t been on here in a while but it is interesting reading all of the crap that is flying around. Richard what I love about your blog and book is that you are talking about the basics, where to start, your experiences. You are open to new ideas and information that comes along but what I love most is that you are believe we all have to figure out this lifestyle for ourselves. I think there will be people that aren’t ok with that and want concrete answers on what to exactly eat and what ratio to have it in. But through the years I am figuring out that I have to figure out what works for me and for my body.
    I am definitely not near as informed as everyone on here and it may take me years to figure this out but the most important thing is that I have started on a new path not the diversions I may make along the way. No matter if I am eating too much fat, not always the right kind of fat, a little too many carbs or not enough what truly matters is that I am off the cheeto, diet pop, sugar roller coaster and am open to not only making this journey but trying some different paths along the way. You have always said you don’t have all the answers and how boring if you did.
    The point is I feel that you and this blog are open to new information and in this world how refreshing is that. It’s ok for people to disagree but let’s be glad people are at least having the conversation!

  30. Still no reply from Krieger on either of the two sites you replied to him at…

  31. josef says:

    The mental image of carb(in)sane giving a bj is totally revolting!

  32. bigmyc says:

    Do you like movies? Do you like Westerns, especially classic Westerns?

    If you were in “The Good, the Bad and the Ugly,” you’d be the character Tuco Ramirez…except maybe with out some of his screen presence.

Trackbacks

  1. [...] sure, lots of folks are miffed at me in various ways (see comments). Understandable. See, I have this quirky thing about me where I tend to [...]

  2. [...] The response of Richard Nikoley, and some of his readers, to my post was predictable, and is a perfect example of what I refer to here when I talk about people diving into the realm of absurdity to defend the indefensible.  Part of this blog post is a direct response to Richard’s comments, and part of it is further commentary and observations on the behavior of people trying to defend bad science.  So, onto my response…excerpts from Richard’s comments are in indented quotes. There’s nothing hypocritical about beating up on a bully, taking stuff from a thief, or killing a wanton murder. [...]

  3. [...] give you an example. I wrote a comment to Jamie and blogged it here, with little in the way of embellishment in the blog post. It took him almost a week to deconstruct [...]