Resistant Starch: 4-Letter Word? Nope. Goal: Create Mashed Potatoes A Diabetic Can Eat Every Day

Here's the reference: Prepare for the “Resistant Starch” Assimilation; Resistance is Futile. It started off slow, rather as I'd expected, because: STARCH! (Fingers raised across face in the sign of a cross.) But, comments began picking up and even though the post is quite a ways down in the scroll, it's what's getting the most play currently. And now, those who began their own experiments are beginning to report in.

I'm tickled at the authoritarian poo-pooing here & there. Not fooled for a second, though. Disappointed? Maybe a smidgen, but I'm counting on the last laugh. I would have thought that the sciency folks out there would have at least taken up some well-placed clues before proclaiming the issue of Resistant Starch to be so much hype.

...I see things like "I have boatloads of studies on it." I call absolute lying bullshit. They do not—at least not that they've carefully read (I can't dismiss out-of-hand what I've read carefully on the matter, and I live by my own standards). I also suspect you are being lied to by them...just because it's "obvious," dontcha see? Nothing to see here. It's "starch," and starch is a "4-letter word." Yea, yea; and bla, bla. "There's no essential carbohydrate" (true, but bullshit, because every human animal on Earth eats starch and always has). "Grains simply aren't necessary" (true, and thanks for demonstrating how you just lied...because this is not about grains—also a very poor source of RS). ...Plenty more lazy dismissive bullshit where that came from, but you get the idea.

In the end, trust is the only thing that really matters—not your popularity, not your credentials, and not anything else. The root of the problem is laziness. I grant that allure. Once people start seeking you out, asking advice, commenting on your blog, it get's easy to just play authority. Of course, there are certain things in Paleo we can rightly consider settled: avoid processed foods, refined sugars & grass seed oils, grains generally. You do have to draw lines, or literally everything is an endless open question forevermore, and nothing gets done because nobody can get off square one.

So yes, I agree: we do have a few things to be completely dismissive about. Resistant Starch, however, is not one of them. It's not and not even close. The properties and potentials are too unique to do such a thing honestly. ...Not if you want people to trust that you're about the science and evidence and real benefits to real people in real life.

There are many areas that are not settled, yet. Dairy is perhaps the biggest one—running the gamut from pure ghee to plain old raw whole milk, and all in-between. Another is cured meats in abundance—like bacon, which I consider Paleo's Original Sin. And more recently, the issue of "Safe Starches" has risen up, and it has traction for only one abiding reason: many people report good results. Many people report the resolution of nagging issues from LC / Paleo. This ought to be seen as wondrous. It's often not. I have to wonder why.

Resistant Starch (RS) would be a corollary or category of Safe Starches (SS). And it may just prove to be the ultimate safe starch.

Here's the Paleoish hypothesis roughly stated in my view:

  1. Not really knowing what everyone actually always ate, especially when starving and biding time to the next successful hunt or fish, primitive humans likely consumed a vast variety of plant matter available, some of which happens to be high in RS, especially the raw and the unripe.
  2. RS is very unique in that it does not get digested at all until it reaches the colon (large intestine) where it then feeds relatively starved gut bacteria, staved because the flora in the small intestine gets first dibs on everything.
  3. For example, a potato cooked in whatever conventional manner gets digested in the small intestine, the starch is rapidly assimilated, and spikes blood glucose; whereas, a raw potato does not get digested until it hits the colon and then, the starch provides slow energy, feeds bacteria that produce short chain fatty acids (SCFA)—a saturated fat—and only raises blood glucose to a moderate degree. Moreover, it only provides caloric energy at 2-3 kcal per gram, not 4.
  4. The regular feeding of the colonic, large intestine gut flora has a number of downstream consequences, such as lowered fasting glucose levels over time, attenuation of blood glucose spikes from rapidly assimilating starch (2nd meal effect), and satiation and improved weight regulation from the enhanced production of SCFAs.

The proposed self experiment:

  1. Eat a big russet potato in whatever way you want to cook it, but without any stuff on it other than salt, pepper, herbs, spices, etc. Measure your BG levels for the first 4 hours every 15-30 minutes (15 minutes is best in the 1-2 hour window for resolution and so you don't miss a spike).
  2. Once back down to normal BG levels, take in the whole starch equivalent of the same potato, but in the form of unmodified potato starch (mix it in some liquid of preference, drink). Bob's Red Mill Potato Starch is dirt cheap and 4 tablespoons (about 40g, with 80% by weight being resistant starch and the rest, moisture) gives you a whole potato worth of starch load. Do the exact same BG measurements at the same times.
  3. Once BG settles out again, repeat #1, take the same measurements at the same time.

Predictions:

  1. You will have a significant BG spike in #1; way more if you're borderline T2 diabetic or full blown. It will take about 4 hours to clear.
  2. You will have a small spike with #2, far less than #1 and moreover, it will clear in 2-3 hours.
  3. Repeating the #1 experiment, you will experience a significant "2nd meal effect" where the test you did mere hours before is far less spiky and clears far more rapidly.
  4. Should the foregoing results be your general experience and you decide to continue taking 2-4 tablespoons per day of RS in the form of Bob's Unmodified Potato Starch, you will find your fasting BG gradually come down over the next month. Note that physiologic insulin resistance and elevated fasting BG is a chronic "issue" (because I simply don't know if it's a "problem") amongst LCers and IFers,  including myself and family members.
  5. And should you continue the experiment per the foregoing #4, expect to experience substantially increased satiation and fat loss over time.

Still with me? Then here's "Tatertot's" latest entry, via email.

~~~

Based on the comments and questions from the first RS post, I did a little more digging and learned even more!

It was known as early as 1922 that certain starches resisted digestion, however, the term 'resistant starch' wasn't used until the 1980's when scientists studying starch digestion re-discovered the phenomenon. Since the 1980's hundreds of studies have been done on the actual mechanisms of RS digestion. Numerous papers and articles were written in the 80's and 90's, but the effects of RS seemed to fall on deaf ears. A resurgence of interest in RS in the early 2000's led to more studies and more articles. It was almost universally accepted by the scientific community that RS:

  1. improved glucose regulation and better weight control,
  2. reduced constipation, irritable bowel syndrome, and irritable bowel disease
  3. reduced colon cancer risk,
  4. and reduced blood cholesterol and triglycerides.

Resistant Starch contributes to health in two main ways: Its low Glycemic Load and its ability to enhance the microflora of the large intestine. As a carbohydrate with virtually zero impact on glucose, it stabilizes blood sugar and insulin, leading to lowered fasting blood glucose and insulin sensitivity. The ability of RS to resist digestion in the small intestine allows it to serve as a food source for the beneficial bacteria of the large intestine.

The concept of 'gut microflora' is difficult to grasp. Paul Jaminet wrote about it here. There are thousands of strains of bacteria, with populations in the trillions, living in the large intestines of humans. Some bacteria are good and some are bad. Scientists are just beginning to map out the thousands of strains and optimal populations.

Generally speaking, though, we can say there are two basic types of gut microbes that we can impact with resistant starch: Bifido-bacteria and Entero-bacteria.

Bifido-bacteria are the good kind. When you eat yogurt or sauerkraut for its probiotic strains of microbes, you are ingesting Bifido-bacteria. Bifido-bacteria comprise 90% of the gut bacteria of breast-fed babies, but only about 5% of adult gut flora. [emphasis added: what are they "eating?"]

Entero-bacteria are the bad kind. Though many are harmless, some of the more well-known species are Salmonella, E. Coli, and Enterobacter, which is closely related to obesity. Some of these type of bacteria can release endotoxins and cause 'toxic shock syndrome'. Many of these types of bacteria are also resistant to antibiotics, making them very difficult to deal with. Entero-bacteria can survive in a wide range of environments, even outside the body, and feed on many different food sources--sometimes resulting in extreme gaseous events.

Studies such as this one have demonstrated that ingesting approximately 33g/day of resistant starch lead to major changes in gut microflora in as little as one week and at 3 weeks, Bifido-bacteria strains had increased up to 10-fold from baseline levels to almost 20% of total gut flora!

An important finding of the above study was that the changes in gut flora varied between individuals, were reversible, and tightly associated with the consumption of RS. Gut flora changes that occurred during the 3 week study returned to baseline levels in as little as one week after stopping the consumption of RS.

Also of importance from this study, no significant changes occurred in fecal pH with RS and no significant detrimental effects were observed on bowel movement, stool consistency, or discomfort, indicating that RS at doses of 33 g per day are well tolerated in human subjects.

This study was done using RS from wheat and corn, mixed into wheat flour crackers. As wheat and corn aren't smiled upon in the Paleo world, I have come up with a way to mirror these results and using a 'safe starch' to gain all of the benefits described in this and other studies.

Studies show improvements with as little as 10g/day and as much as 50g/day. Over 60g/day, no additional benefits are noted, but not harmful. The most common dosage seems to be 30-40g/day.

  • Raw, unmodified potato (must not be pre-gelatinized!) provides nearly 8g RS2 per tablespoon.
  • Green Banana/Plantain Flour is also a great source of RS at about 6g per TBS.
  • Hi-Maize cornstarch seems to be a very good source as well at about 5g per TBS.
  • Common cornstarch contains about 2.5g per TBS.
  • White and Brown rice flour contains about 1.5g. per TBS.
  • Arrowroot starch is a poor source with less than 1g per TBS.

Mix any combination of these starches to equal 10-40g/day in a smoothy, milk, kefir, yogurt, or just plain water. The sky is the limit, just be sure not to heat the starch! It must remain under 140 degrees to retain it's RS characteristics. It may also be best to mix and match the RS sources for maximum benefit as studies suggest different RS sources affect different strains of beneficial bacteria.

~~~

Anyone have a Sous-Vide Supreme, the mini...or a home made knock off using the crock pot, temp probe, on/off switch hack? You are hereby enlisted. I have an SVS, so I'm in for sure.

First do the self experiment as outlined, because you need a baseline (that'll take a day). And I want you to be convinced, so you're all in. Then, repeat the experiment. Only, this time, instead of potato starch, you're using another potato. You're going to cook it sous vide for a few hours (2-3, probably). I'd suggest a setting of 130F. Word is the RS bursts and becomes rapidly digesting at 140, so 130 ought give a good margin for error. If it works, they'll henceforth be known as "medium rare mashed potatoes." I'll use a food processor to make a purée and should the BG tests work, then, from then on, you'll simply heat your cream and butter on the stove, and I suspect you'll get a great purée mashed taters that even a diabetic can and potentially should eat regularly. The thought of LC panties in a bunch over that makes me giddy with delight.

I have not done this yet; and because I'm willing to put myself out there and risk being totally fucking wrong, least you'll know I can be trusted, and that's gold to me. So let's do it and report results in comments. I'm gonna have to go get new BG meter test strips 'cause I haven't pricked my finger in years and the ones I have are way out of date.

Imagine if you get the predicted results using the potato starch and then get similar results using a real potato, and it's soft enough that it can be done into mashed potatoes & a Paleo gravy? And diabetics can have no fear and that it ultimately improves their BG regulation over time the more sous vide mashed potatoes they eat daily?

Imagine if it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't, and we move on. But I for one will not dismiss out of hand something that could improve lives on a few levels, simply because starch is a "4-letter word."

Update: Well, unless someone has a better idea, doesn't look like mashed potatoes from cooking at less than 140F are going to happen. I used the SVS 2 ways. First time, just a peeled potato in the water at 135 for about 3 hours. Used the food processor, some butter, cream, seasoning. Not even close. Yuk, actually. Tossed it. So then I took a potato and sliced it, vacuum sealed it, and put it in the same 135 for about 20 hours hoping that would be enough time to soften the fibers. Nope. Pretty much same result. There may be uses for potato slices like this in dishes, but not mashed.

Tatertot comments on the news:

@Richard – I wouldn’t say the sous-vide experiment was a total waste of time. I made some last night that turned out pretty good. Not as mashed potatoes, but as crispy potato slices.

I peeled and sliced a bunch of potatoes very thin. Heated water in a large pan to 140 degrees, took it off the heat and dropped potatoes in. I let them sit covered in the hot water as it cooled. After 2 hours, I drained them. At this point they were flexible and crisp. I chopped them into smaller pieces, seasoned with salt, pepper and cayenne. I thought they were very tasty.

These would make an excellent base for potato salad. I saved about a pound’s worth for my lunch today. I sprinkled them with vinegar last night and plan on eating them cold today in a couple of hours to check my BG afterwards. They remind me of German Potato Salad.

I call it a ‘WIN’.

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Comments

  1. Chuck Currie says:

    WoooHooo – I’m going to give the “supplement” version (Bob’s potato starch) a whirl – just going to do a straight up fasting BG test – then supplement for a week and retest. Will let you know how it goes.

    Cheers

  2. tatertot says:

    Great that you are sticking your neck out here, Richard. I think it will pay off in terms of shining some light on the benefits of adding some RS to a paleo diet. It will be awesome to see other people experiments and hear how they are getting their RS in paleo fashion.

    I think the biggest argument against RS will be that it is unnecessary on a Paleo diet, because a Paleo diet provides all the prebiotics and dietary fiber anyone could ever need.

    I’d like to head that off early in the comments:

    From: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-3010.2005.00481.x/full

    “Dietary fibre includes polysaccharides, oligosacccharides, lignin and associated plant substances. Dietary fibres promote beneficial physiological effects including laxation, and/or blood cholesterol attenuation, and/or blood glucose attenuation’. Contrary to some earlier definitions, this description of dietary fibre specifically refers to non-starch polysaccharides, resistant oligosaccharides and analogous carbohydrates. It also includes RS, therefore RS may be considered a component of dietary fibre…

    RS appears to function differently than more well known prebiotics (e.g. fructo-oligosaccharides); when the RS and fructo-oligosaccharides were fed together, the increase in faecal bacteria was greater than the individual increases observed when these two ingredients were fed separately…

    It is thought that RS may act as a feeding substrate for Bifidobacteria in vitro and that it may provide protection to these bacteria in vivo as they travel through the upper gastrointestinal tract. In vitro studies have also shown that several categories of RS (including RS2 and RS4) may physically associate with several Bifidobacteria species protecting them from attack during food preparation and storage, as well as during transit through the gastrointestinal tract. Because of these protective effects, RS may be described as a ‘culture protagonist’ and RS has been combined with Bifidobacteria in yoghurt. ”

    I think it has been demonstrated pretty clearly in the studies that RS is currently considered ‘dietary fiber’ but shouldn’t be. RS is going to be hard to pin down in legislation because the RS content of a single food item can change several times as the item is cooked and cooled.

    Another huge blow to the ‘RS is just dietary fiber’ is the Australian Paradox.

    “Even though Australians eat more dietary fibre than many other western countries, bowel cancer is still the second most commonly reported cancer in Australia with 30 new cases diagnosed every day.

    “We have been trying to find out why Australians aren’t showing a reduction in bowel cancer rates and we think the answer is that we don’t eat enough resistant starch.”

    Dr David Topping, from CSIRO’s Food Futures Flagship, said this is referred to as ‘the Australian paradox’.

    These findings, published in the latest issue of The Journal of Nutrition, reinforce the fact that dietary fibre is beneficial for human health, but go further to show that fibre rich in resistant starch is even better.

    “It’s not just the amount of fibre that we eat that’s important, but the diversity of fibre in our diet,” Dr Topping said.”

    read more here:

  3. “Dr David Topping, from CSIRO’s Food Futures Flagship, said this is referred to as ‘the Australian paradox’.”

    Does it translate to New Zealand as well?

  4. MsMcGillicuddy says:

    While I wait for my unmodified potato starch to arrive, I am going to add some really green banana to my AM smoothies…I know heating the starch changes its properties, but freezing it raw would keep it raw.(?) I’ve frozen unripened bananas in the past and watched them turn brown even in the freezer, over time, but assume that it is not from further ripening, but some kind of oxidizing? At the risk of sounding obvious, it’s just that it seems the RS is so temp sensitive. Thanks

  5. This approach is the very essence of doing science. The existing facts hint at an interesting new possibility. A way to test that possibility is put forward and we experiment, being fully willing to accept that it fails completely. The results are evaluated and any newly proven facts are added to the pool. Repeat.

    When people are attached to a particular conclusion before doing the experiments, they’re doing religion, not science.

    Doing good science means living with the very real possibility that your current understanding of things, no matter how much you might find it comforting and “right”, might be entirely wrong. And, when that proves to be the case, adjusting your understanding of how things work.

  6. J Wynia:

    Beautiful comment.

    I got scared while reading it. I hate to be wrong. But you are completely right. The really beautiful thing about the Internet is that this could actually set a new standard for science. Completely transparent and out in the open, people reporting on their own results and everyone deciding the validity for themselves.

  7. marie says:

    A crowd sourced experiment, a common framework with each one in charge of running their own and sharing observations and/or modifications. No matter what you learn, whether it works as you project or not, it’ll be valuable. Very nice.

  8. tatertot says:

    @MsM – I don’t know if freezing and thawing reduces RS. My initial reaction is ‘no’, but as a banana ripens, the RS goes to nearly zero. Frozen bananas turn to mush–could that be a type of artificial ripening? If they could be freeze-dried, then certainly the RS would remain, but slowly frozen and thawed–don’t know. You could cut out the uncertainty and use either fresh green bananas or something like http://www.wedoglutenfree.com/ green banana flour.

    @J W & Richard – For someone to debunk the usefulness of RS in the Paleo diet, they’d have to show it worsens glucose control and disrupts normal gut flora.

    To show that RS may enhance the Paleo diet, people just need to repeat the experiments done in hundreds of studies on glucose control and second meal effect, and report that it didn’t upset their digestion. Unless someone can do stool analysis at home we’ll have to live with that.

    We have made no grand claims that RS leads to weight loss, cures Crohn’s, or solves the colon cancer epidemic, but all those claims have been made, and I think will prove to be true with widespread population size trials.

  9. marie says:

    Possible Control experiment for sous-vide part :
    Just occurred to me, because the sous-vide is a new variable that may introduce uncontrolled variation in the final outcome (eg how much really remains RS, how many cookers achieve the exact same conditions etc) a Control experiment just for that would be to simply make raw ‘mashed potatoes’ -it’s easy, just clean well a couple of medium potatoes, cut thin then mash in your blender after adding a tsp of warm cream and tsp melted butter. Add the rest per your preferred recipe after they’re mashed. Test BG as previously, after fasted test.

    I just looked up old excel from when I was trying out variations on ‘potato hacks’ (totally different aim then was to look at mechanisms and role of fat) : raw mashed potatoes only increased BG by ~20 points over fasting, at least for me – but note that state of body was overfed on cooked potatoes back then (and I’m not in condition to redo as part of new experiment now).

  10. Quick question. If we happen to really like raw potatoes, will those work just as well as the unmodified potato starch or other items you mentioned? If so, weigh and eat approx 50-60 gr a day, or something different? Thanks! This is all new to me.

  11. Marie

    If I recall correctly, your increase of 20 points is right along with tatertot’s from 4 T potato starch. In terms of the sous vide, one should expect that the RS is largely intact if they get the same rise for one large russet sous vide mashed as for 4 T PS.

    BTW, I did a test tonight. Put two peeled taters at 135 in the sous vide. However, it was already 7.15 and didn’t want to eat terribly late, so I processed them at 9.15. Problem is, I tried to get fancy and did a melted garlic butter, added kefir to simulate sour cream. Yuk. Tossed it. So I have two peeled, sliced thin taters in vacuum packed bags in the SV and will see how they do at 12 hours. Should give me a chance to get test strips too.

    Raw mashed? Never heard of such a thing.

    Miralee. Yep, raw taters will work fine. 1 large russet ought to be about 30g resistant starch if I recall tatertot’s figures.

  12. Type 2 diabetic with non-diabetic BG control here (last A1c was 5%).

    I usually have a low carb shake of some kind most mornings because I can’t face food first thing.

    At various times I’ve tried both the “Glucerna” and the “Generation UCan” resistant starch shakes – they both spike my BG into double figures – so much for the slow release carb theory.

    I also have IBS issues that respond well to a diet that excludes insoluble fibre so I’m in no way convinced that fibre is essential for a “healthy” diet – for some people maybe, but I’m not one of ‘em.

    You guys can experiment all you like, but no way, no how am I gonna be experimenting with resistant starch again.

  13. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3435786/

    CONCLUSION: Idiopathic constipation and its associated symptoms can be effectively reduced by stopping or even lowering the intake of dietary fiber.

  14. What do you mean by “spike into double figures”?

  15. “Idiopathic” (we have no idea of cause) and “can”. Quite a “conclusion.” The very, very, very vast majority of people on earth do just fine with fiber and it doesn’t cause constipation and moreover, most people can relieve constipation by adding fiber.

    I will never understand the propensity of some to attempt to define best practices for all on the basis of exteme and fringe experiences of a few.

    So you’re a zero carb guy, right Ray? Zero vegetables, zero fruit? Because, after all, we’re talking about 4 tablespoons of RS, the starch faction only of a single potato. Moreover, it’s unclear as to whether RS can properly be considered fiber at all.

  16. uey111 says:

    I think the difference is this:
    People usually don’t think soluble/insoluble fiber, just fiber (like in this study) – and without this differentiation the study loses all meaning, because it’s already pretty much well known that different fibers work on a human body in a different way – f.e. the favorite of all western governments (and breakfast cereal producers, which can since ~1970 sell what was previously trash or fed to farm animals) – wheat bran is from what I know mostly of the insoluble kind, which for humans is pretty much the same as eating sticks & twigs, while the soluble kind (vegetables, fruits) has been shown to at least not cause problems and possibly having benefits as long as it’s not eaten in too big amounts at once.

  17. Great post on RS! I eat up to 4 tators for dinner sometimes after a WOD. RS just get a bad rap.
    Jack

  18. Cunt is a four letter word. Starch has six letters.

  19. Oh! Carb! That four letter word. Doh!

  20. Is this potato starch the same as potato flour? I bought a bag a few months ago (from the supermarket clearance aisle) with a view to using it as a source of carbs on long bike rides but I’ve not really bothered with it recently. If it’s pretty much the same then I’ll give this a whirl.

    • Lee

      No, not the same. Potato flour is made from cooked taters. Tatertot went over it all in comments to the previous post so if you go over there and do a find for potato flour, you can read more about it.

  21. MsMcGillicuddy says:

    @ J Wynia – Yes, this is a great test/experiment and I will be looking forward to reading all results. I so agree with you and take it one step further. Science, very much like religion, begins in its most purest form, but then can suffer the possibility of corruption through human nature/ego/psychology (whatever your favorite term) via its many forms. The only thing that survives the skirmishes is the truth, which arises after the war, LOL – let’s hope this war is a short one and we arrive soon at the truth.
    Peace, brother.

  22. ilise says:

    Does eating raw potato = rs2
    and processed/bagged potato starch =rs4 ?

  23. Did someone say bifidobacteria?
    I’m hoping that becomes a household term in the near future – as well as the prebiotics which increase bifidobacteria the most: inulin & galactooligosaccharides (eg, http://caloriesproper.com/?p=1348)… and apparently now certain types of resistant starch! (PMIDs: 21151493, 20516265, & 18543927). Exciting.
    best,
    Bill

  24. ilise says:

    only RS4 increased bifidobacteria. Was hoping the potato starch would too. =( doesnt look like it from the studies.

  25. I have some of that stuff too, Bill, and have begun adding to the mix.

    Here’s another weird thing. Don’t know if related but the first couple of weeks sleep was profound & deep and now the last couple of weeks has been reduced to an average of 4 hrs per night, and I’m not the slightest bit tired during the day. No idea if it will persist. At first a bit annoying because I’ve always been a good sleeper except on the very rare occasion. Then I just started getting up after laying a while, realizing I wasn’t tired at all, but perfectly alert and kinda wanting to get to work on something.

    We’ll see.

  26. Ilise

    I’ll wait for tatertot to weigh in on that. Pretty sure both raw tater and tater starch is rs2.

  27. MsMcGillicuddy says:

    @tatertot – do you mind sharing with us your method of drying the green bananas into chips? do you use a dehydrator? temps?
    @ anyone: I have been enjoying some interesting reading this morning -anecdotal reports of diabetics who routinely use plantains to replace mashed potatoes and eat French fried plantains, etc.
    Also, studies on certain gut bacteria and their likelihood of contributing to obesity or reducing obesity. It would appear the jury will be out on this one for quite some time? no books written yet as I can find.

  28. Cool, eh, MsMcG?

    It’s one of the reasons I was drawn to this. First heard about RS from tatertot back when experimenting with the “potato diet.” It was thought that cooling taters after cooking them formed RS, but it turns out it’s only a little bit and a different kind. But he kept at it and all of a sudden there’s quite a lot of science on it, many obvious benefits if it pans out, and nobody’s talking about it and in particular, LCers and Paleos…cause, you know, that 4-letter word thing.

  29. ilise says:

    thanks Richard.
    I know that for me decreased sleep in not a good sign when it comes to my gut or blood sugar. Waking up early can be set off by carbs eaten before bed.
    Also someone mentioned that the starch increased appetite..be just a bit cautious about this as it could be a sign of increased insulin production. I have this happen when I consume carbs that I am sensitive to -no matter how small amount of them I consume. For instance-white rice- even a couple of tablespoons will set off my insulin and drive my blood sugar down super fast= mild hypoglycemia=more hunger eariler and more often. Effect can last for a day before wearing off, meaning even if I eat a normal meal with healthy carbs -only veggies and protein- blood sugar will still fall too rapidly and I will need to eat more often and usually need a greater amount of carb content to retain energy.

  30. Just had a chance to read that link about the “Australian paradox” (that’s short for “doesn’t jive with CW, so it’s a ‘paradox’ because CW is always right”).

    Whaddya wanna bet that the CW association with fiber intake and lower colon cancer was never fiber at all and had nothing to do with scrapping the bowel clean, but was RS all along, and its promotion of beneficial gut bacteria?

  31. Ilise:

    Well, I’m going to be getting new test strips so I’ll know for sure, but in general I tend to know when I’ve overdone carbage in a meal because I’ll go comatose, a pretty sure sign of hypoG I think. However, in this entire milk, kefir, and now RS experimentation, not was have I felt the slightest bit tired, even after downing a quart of milk in one shot. Quite the contrary, actually.

    I think it was last week sometime. I was out with some friends and had a what the hell moment, had a burger (with bun) and fries. Two hours later I can’t keep my eyes open.

  32. ilise says:

    I get the comatose sleepy feeling after a large load of carbs too.
    For about ten years I monitored BG very closely sometimes up to 20 times per day. What I learned is that I could avoid the comatose reaction by reducing the amount of carbs (comatose was caused by swing from high blood sugar to low and in short amount of time) but discovered that even small amounts of “fast” or “bad” carbs would set off insulin to cause problems with sleep even if my blood sugar stayed in the normal range and I felt no reaction at all. Very hard lesson to learn because I wanted to believe that keeping my BG normal would prevent health/sleep problems. But even with normal blood sugar readings day in and day out -every meal- and hgA1c below 5 my sleep requires zero bad carbs to be normal. Like I mentioned before setting off insulin seemed to be more key than actual blood glucose numbers. Blunting the blood sugar spike with high fat or protein works only to a point for me, but cant escape the effects altogether

    I wish there was an insulin monitor. I think that would be much more telling and valuable.

  33. ilise says:

    also wanted to mention that for me blood sugar reactions and problems with hypoglycemia have been made permanently worse after each course of antibiotics.

  34. Hey Ricardo, I’m getting some indigestion when I drink my kefir and UPS at night. Have you noticed anything like that?

  35. Kayumochi says:

    The difference between a *natural* poot and what I experienced the 2 days I was up to 4 tbs of PS was like the difference between a kid slowly letting the air out of a balloon for a laff and 24+ hours of Mt Vesuivus followed by 24+ hours of Krakatoa. Fart and depart was not an option; this PS induced gas was like it had been stewing in the sulphurous bowels of hell for the past millennia.

  36. ilise says:

    Kayumochi
    Odorous?
    Have you tried a lower dosage? Everytime I find a good prebiotic that causes some hell of gas I am usually rewarded later with better health and poo. My problem is once the gas goes so does the results.

  37. Cody

    Only if I’ve had a cocktail or two earlier in the evening. To the extent I keep things clean and particularly stay away from grains, I have little trouble with GERD. I’d just skip trying to take it before bed. Have it in the day, morning or whatever. I think the effect it had on my sleep I reported before was a temporary thing (no idea why, and there may be confounders anyway). Similarly, my current reduced sleep as I just reported in comments could be related to having closed down my business (see the ‘Burning Down the House” post) and feeling a bit like a ship without a sail–that will resolve as plans for future come together. On the other hand, the fact Im sleeping far less but not tired is highly attributable to both the high, complete, bioavailable nutrition I get from milk & kefir, as well as improved colonic gut flora and the production of SCFAs.

    This is fun trying to figure all this out while resisting being foolish about any of it.

  38. ilise says:

    Richard..ok great its not blood sugar issues. Is the dairy you’re consuming grass fed? Grass fed dairy make me wake up early too plus gives me ton of energy. Fish oil does the same. I have to stay low on these two otherwise I wake up super early.

  39. Posted by Indy

    “At various times I’ve tried both the “Glucerna” and the “Generation UCan” resistant starch shakes – they both spike my BG into double figures – so much for the slow release carb theory.”

    I agree 100%. For a type two diabetics starch is starch and carbs are carbs. Above a certain level, low for most all will raise BG to dangerous levels. The low GI approach was ripped to bits by the late Barry Groves and others. Look around diabetes forums and blogs and almost all the well controlled diabetic are lowcarbers 30 – 50 carbs per day. Only a small increase in carbs say twenty can take a lowcarbing diabetic on nil or minimum meds such as Metformin in to the danger zone.

    To Richard

    “What do you mean by “spike into double figures”?”

    Some countries describe BG numbers in mmol/l if you multiply by 18 you get the American equivalent. A non diabetic fasting is usually around 4 – 5 mmol/l 18 x 4.5 = 81. When Indy talks of double figures she means, say 11 x 18 = 198 a place no one wants to go. At these BG numbers damage occurs.

    For every percentage point drop in A1C blood test results (from 8.0 percent to 7.0 percent, for example), the risk of diabetic eye, nerve, and kidney disease is reduced by 40 percent. Lowering blood sugar reduces these microvascular complications in both type 1 and type 2 diabetes. Intensive blood sugar control in people with type 1 diabetes (average A1C of 7.4%) reduces the risk of any CVD event by 42 percent and the risk of heart attack, stroke, or death from CVD by 57 percent.

    Source: DCCT/EDIC, reported in December 22, 2005, issue of the New England Journal of Medicine.

  40. Ilise

    Yep, raw mostly grass fed. They get hay and non-soy, non-corn grains (ie, GRASS seeds) at some points during winter. My looking into this suggests that virtually all dairy must be done this way or you simply don’t get economic production and besides, cows ought to do perfectly well on grass seeds since they eat them anyway when a field has tall grass that has gone to seed.

  41. Kayumochi:

    I’ve had that a couple of times. No idea the cause, but in both cases I recall, it resolved in spite of continuing the same dose. I think this is all too complex to try and figure cause for everything. Certainly if it became chronic there would be cause for concern. My immediate tendency, however, is to always try to push through difficulties like that, such as in fasting and getting cold hands & feet. I extended the fast even more. Problem resolved (until I got down to 175 and then I had a chronic problem). But that’s a story for another day.

  42. ilise says:

    Richard..you created a chronic problem from fasting? Please share. I am thinking about going on a long fast soon and Im the same type of person..I power through and overdo it.

  43. “carbs are carbs.”

    Eddie, this is a categorically false statement and it has zero to do with glycemic index.

    Methinks you are doing what most LCers always do. Carbs are carbs and starch is starch. Accordingly, you are dismissive out of hand, understandably to some extent (largely _because_ of the bogus stuff about GI vis-a-vis diabetics), but facts are facts too, and the fact is that even if you get 400g of carbs, you are probably getting only 5g of resistant starch.

    In plainer terms, you are not qualified to even have an opinion in this specific area. All you’ve done, sadly, is expose the fact that you are utterly ignorant about resistant starch and how it’s digested and is differentiated entirely from the kind of starch everyone is familiar with.

    You can easily verify this with the experiment I propose. One a cooked potato with no resistant starch. One a raw potato (or the 4 T equivalent in unmodified potato starch), and you will measure the distinct difference. And that difference is what we are talking about.

  44. ilise

    No, I created an acute problem with fasting that I fixed by pushing through it. I created a chronic problem by dropping weight to 175.

    I don’t want to derail the conver here, though.

  45. I think what Richard is saying is that his Thyroid took a crap on him.

    Once bodyfat % goes too low, your Thyroid gets a little worried and decides to take a vacation.

    Richard, what was your bodyfat % at 175? Under 12%?

    I know you didn’t want to talk about this. Maybe save it for a future blog post. I think it is a very important topic.

  46. Also, Eddie, even a glucose tolerance test is a nondiabetic can acutely elevate BG to near 180. What I’m resistant to is the idea that a diabetic ought never have a significant spike in BG.

    Also, if one is deficient in insulin, then that’s what injecting is for…replacing what the pancrease cannot do. Tatertot has already linked to studies where diabetics on 30g of resistant starch

    1 don’t get much of an elevation in BG

    2 experience improved fasting bg levels over time, in some cases significant, like 20 points on average (using our scale).

    But, look, nobody’s going to force you to try it. I’m certain some diabetics will and will report their results anyway.

  47. Cody

    I am clinically hypo anyway. But, though TSH is elevated, both T1 and T2 test on the lower half of the normal range. Anyway, I had dropped the meds, I have never had classic hypo symtoms, and I have recently heard that the cold hands & feet are actually caused by something else (haven’t investigated). Also, this only happens in winter, never spring, summer, fall. Also seems to be related to alcohol and marijuana intake in my case (the latter being the most profound).

    I would guess my BF at 175 to have been in the 15ish range, so certainly not too low.

  48. tatertot says:

    This is a really good discussion!

    I agree with everyone who says fiber is not needed in the levels recommended over the last 20 years. It almost seems to me that the only reason fiber worked at all is because it was inadvertently adding some RS to the mix, but the theory was that adding a whole bunch of insoluble plant fibers would bulk up the stool, making you more regular and your guts healthier.

    The CW guidelines for dietary fiber intake are 20-30g per day. This is nearly impossible to achieve without supplementation. If I did manage to get 30g of fiber from a supplement like Metamucil or psyllium husks, I could easily do it with zero RS involved.

    Mark Sisson did a good blog on fiber a few years ago, which I think still holds true: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/fiber/#axzz2ScaKPipl

    “CW says Americans need serious fiber in their diets. And by “fiber” CW often means bran buds, whole wheat, psyllium husks – you know, sticks and twigs roughage. We’re talking that 1980′s Saturday Night Live bit about Super Colon Blow cereal. Let’s just say that the more sensitive among us, in particular, want to broach the question: “Is this really the best way?”

  49. MsMcGillicuddy says:

    You all know from the Jaminet research, that tropical diets are considered among the healthiest and now when consider the types and forms of carbohydrate eaten by these populations (plantains, tubers, coconut), it’s becoming clearer.

  50. MsMcGillicuddy says:

    could we attribute high carb crashes as well to large releases of serotonin – which also have a significant tranquilizing effect?

  51. I think we need a better term than “fiber”. Things like inulin and pectin behave differently than insoluble fiber.

    It would be nice to know which colon fermentable foods help which bacteria. And to have a good dosage. I would guess that dosage would be based on height and weight (taller people probably have larger colons, no?). I’m 6’4″. I would suspect that the amount I need may be different than a 5 foot tall woman.

  52. @MsMcGillicuddy, I was thinking along similar lines.

    The gut is more important than even the brain for producing some of these “brain” chemicals.

  53. MsMcGillicuddy says:

    along these same lines, a link to Eades the heretic speaking out against fiber as a cure for all ails:

    http://www.proteinpower.com/forum/showthread.php?8332-Questions-amp-Hello

  54. tatertot says:

    Re: RS from real foods…

    I tried really, really hard to get 30g+ per day from real foods. I think it is possible, but not easy.

    Dried plantains are probably the best source of RS. Get the greenest plantains you can find, slice thin, season if desired and dry at low temperature. This is exactly how ‘green banana flour’ is made, except they take it a step further and grind it into flour. The dried plantain slices are a bit of an acquired taste, but one big plantain will provide about 50g of RS. Weigh the dried slices and divide by two for a pretty close approximation of the RS content.

    Really green bananas are a good source. But they need to be really green, they are almost impossible to peel and taste like crap. They have a latex coating that makes your lips pucker, and provide about 15g RS per banana–eating 2 a day is tough.

    Raw potatoes are a good source, a really big, 300g (over 1/2 pound), softball-sized Russett potato eaten entirely and raw is about 30g of RS. The same sized red potato is maybe 15g RS. It varies greatly with potato type and is impossible to measure. I’ve never been able to eat that much raw potato and can’t say I’d recommend it. There are some toxins known to be in raw potatoes that haven’t been thoroughly cleaned, peeled, and pared of green spots. Raw potato starch takes all the mystery out of RS from this source: it’s approx 78% by weight, 7.8g/TBS.

    Cooked potatoes, cooked&cooled potatoes, rice, cold rice, and lentils are also all sources of RS and should probably all be included to some extent in your diet, but you will be lucky to get over 5g/day even force feeding yourself these foods.

    There is a thing called Hi-Maize corn starch, developed and sold by the same people who brought us High Fructose Corn Syrup. It is 55% RS by weight and you can even bake with it. I’m a bit on the fence with this product, but willing to concede it may be OK.

  55. tatertot says:

    Concerning RS types:

    There are 4 types of RS –

    RS1 Physically inaccessible or digestible resistant starch, such as that found in seeds or legumes and unprocessed whole grains

    RS2 Resistant starch that occurs in its natural granular form, such as uncooked potato, green banana flour and high amylose corn

    RS3 Resistant starch that is formed when starch-containing foods are cooked and cooled such as in legumes,[2] bread, cornflakes and cooked-and-chilled potatoes, pasta salad or sushi rice. The process of cooking out the starch and cooling it is called retrogradation.

    RS4 Starches that have been chemically modified to resist digestion. This type of resistant starches can have a wide variety of structures and are not found in nature.

    RS2 is probably the best bet for getting any real amount of RS in your diet. The study I talked about in the main article http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0015046 examined gut microbes in people fed RS2 and RS4. I don’t know of any sources of RS4 and can’t say I’d be too thrilled about an RS not found in nature, but the study showed that RS2 is perfectly capable of supporting beneficial gut microbes.

    From the study:

    “At the species level, the changes evoked by RS4 were increases in Bifidobacterium adolescentis and Parabacteroides distasonis, while RS2 significantly raised the proportions of Ruminococcus bromii and Eubacterium rectale when compared to RS4.”

    Ruminococcus bromii are anaerobic bacteria. They obtain nutrients by breaking down cellulose that comes through the digestive system of the host organism. These organisms are also capable of fermenting glucose and xylose. http://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index.php/Ruminococcus

    Eubacterium rectale is reported to be one of the most abundant bacterial species in human faeces… The genus Eubacterium includes many species of obligately anaerobic bacteria… Species of the genus Eubacterium produce mixtures of organic acids as fermentation products from carbohydrates, including butyric, acetic, lactic or formic acids, but not propionic and succinic acids, as major products. http://ijs.sgmjournals.org/content/58/7/1735.full

    Scientists are only scratching the surface about gut flora, types and functions, but I think that supporting these guys with 25 cents worth of RS a day is a good policy!

  56. tatertot says:

    Ref: Optimal dosing of RS

    This is the wildcard. Nobody knows. I think we can safely say that 3-5g/day, the SAD and European diet level, is not enough.

    Almost all of the studies use 20-50g/day and can easily demonstrate the advertised benefits of RS.

    Studies using 180g/day showed stomach distress and no additional benefits.

    Most of the studies end up recommending 20-30g/day. This is for normal, healthy adults.

    20-30g/day is easy to get with 2-3TBS of raw potato starch, dried plantains or green banana flour, plus another 5-10g from real food.

  57. TJ the Grouch says:

    Sounds wonderful if it works. Diabetic myself, haven’t had a potato in years. Will try it. Re.: Plantains: I lived in South America for many years. Green plantains can be sliced (the thickness of potato chips) and deep-fried. Slightly salted they are delicious. I do not have the slightest idea as to what happens to their RS content with the frying. Anybody knows how to test this?

  58. tatertot says:

    My N=1.

    I’m 47, 5’10, normal weight (170), exercise regulary. 4 years ago I was 250 lbs with fatty liver, pre-diabetes, high bp, high chol–typical metabolic syndrome. Lost weight through LC paleo and exercise. FBG remained elevated typically 120, though down from 140 a few years back.

    From about Jan 1st this year until about March 1st, I spent considerable effort getting RS from potatoes and rice. I didn’t notice any difference in blood glucose, digestion, sleep or anything.

    I went to Hawaii for vacation in late Feb, and bought a big bunch of green bananas at a farmer’s market. I ate 3-4 of them a day. I noticed a definite change in digestion for the better, sleep, and morning FBG was in the low 100’s the entire week I ate the green bananas throughout the day.

    Upon my return from vacation, FBG was back to 120. I couldn’t find a good source of green bananas, but stumbled upon plantains and devised a way to dry them. Eating a huge pile of dried plantains had the same effect as the green bananas. Eating 80-100g worth a day I could get my FBG down to 90’s.

    Drying and eating that many plantains a day was tedious. I started using raw potato starch around April 1st.

    I have been very anal testing blood glucose, just because it’s easy and I think it’s important. I made a few baseline charts with about 300g of cooked potato on an empty stomach. Normally, my BG spikes to about 200 in 30-60 minutes and returns to FBG level at 3 hours with a crash to the 60’s at the 2 hour point that lasts maybe 15 minutes. I think this is a fairly representative curve for someone who eats LC paleo and isn’t truly diabetic.

    I drank 4TBS of raw potato starch mixed with water on an empty stomach. My FBG that day was 100, readings every 15 minutes were as follows: 92, 93, 85, 79, 79, 82, 85, 90, 90. No spike at all, and in fact a dip.

    That same day, my second meal, 4 hours later, was 300g of plain baked potato. Starting BG was 90, in 30 minutes I had a spike at 160, at 60 minutes it was 114, at 90 minutes it was 90 and stayed there.

    Since then, I have been taking 4TBS a day at different times and ways. My FBG is lowest (80-90) when I have a big starchy (baked potato) lunch and take the raw potato starch after dinner in a smoothy. If I take the RPS during the day or at breakfast, my BG during the day stays low, but FBG is around 100-110.

    Since starting the 4TBS of RPS, digestion has been awesome. Some foods make me a bit gassier than I used to be, but not troublesome. Gassiness has actually almost all cleared up and I don’t really notice it now. Bowel movements at first were large and ragged for a few weeks and now are normal in size and appearance.

    For the future, I plan on keeping with the 4TBS a day, but I’ve ordered some green banana flour and might even try out Hi-Maize. I have this nagging feeling that a combination of Hi-Maize, Banana Flour, and RPS would be a really great combo. If different gut microbes react to different starches, maybe limiting to just potato starch isn’t the best course. I may back off to 2TBS a day this summer.

    Sorry for the novel!

  59. tatertot says:

    @TJ Grouch – deep fried plantain chips are an OK source of RS, but so are Lay’s Potato Chips. You’d have to eat a lot of them and by the time you got anywhere near 10g RS, you’d have ingested a lot of oil.

    Tasty, but not the best for RS.

  60. tatertot says:

    @Cody and Kayumuchi –

    I’ve never had anything remotely like indigestion I could attribute to the PS. I have been mixing mine either in a bit of yogurt or a smoothy with coffee, frozen blueberries, and cocoa powder (or some other such crazy concoction).

    I have noticed several distinct phases of flatulence, though. I think this is just a normal part of the process. I first noticed the gas changes when I was eating green bananas in Hawaii–it was a type of gassiness I have never experienced, they just seemed to come from nowhere, caused no pain, almost like comedy farts. They don’t seem to be related to the RS or potato starch, but to other foods you’ve eaten. It does nicely illustrate that the RS is effecting change in gut microbes pretty quickly.

  61. @tatertot or Richard:

    What about sweet potatoes? I’m particularly fond of the purple japanese variety, but from looking at the typical sweet potato’s nutritional info, it looks like they have 50g more “sugar” and subsequently less starch, more fiber. So I’m wondering if they also form significantly less RS?

  62. tatertot says:

    Regarding lowered FBG with Potato Starch:

    If anyone is contemplating their own N=1 in this area, here is the best way I’ve found to lower FBG.

    Take your whole daily dose after dinner, either right after or any time before bed. No snacking on anything else between after dinner and bedtime. Your FBG the next day will probably be the lowest you’ve seen it in a while.

    I think this is actually more of a ‘parlour trick’. It is classic ‘second-meal effect’. It’s not very well explained by science, but it works. Two possible explanations are SCFA production and delayed gastric emptying–take your pick.

    Here’s just one paper on the subject: http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/75/3/505.long Not specifically talking about RS, but about the effect of evening meal on next day glucose test.

    Here’s a paper on RS and second-meal effect: http://images.abbottnutrition.com/ANHI/MEDIA/Second%20Meal%20Effect%20Review%20and%20Citation%20Table.pdf

    “The mechanism of action behind the second meal effect has been assumed to
    be a direct consequence of prolonged glucose absorption leading to: stable insulin
    levels, decreased tendency for glucose to fall to sub-fasting levels, minimal release of
    NEFAs, and maintenance of glucose uptake by peripheral tissues . However, a
    growing body of animal data suggests that the effect may also be mediated by SCFA
    produced from colonic fermentation whereby SCFA attenuate postprandial blood
    glucose levels of the subsequent meal by inactivating hormone-sensitive lipase in
    adipose tissue via the intestinal incretin GLP-1 or via the G-protein receptor GPR43″

  63. tatertot says:

    @Rhys – Sweet potatoes are sadly a very poor source of RS–you got it right, too much sugar!

  64. Lots of info to take in here. I’ll have to catch up with the other thread, but it seems a few things aren’t true (maybe?) that I once believed.

    I’ve been cooking my taters in the oven, then sticking them in the fridge overnight and then setting them out the next day. Is this not worth the trouble anymore? Especially if I stick them back in the microwave for a quick nuke to heat them through and melt a little butter on them?

    Also, does eating the RPS guard against eating a regular baked potato from big spikes? That might be kind of a vague question, but as I alluded to, there’s a lot of info to take in here.

    This is all certainly very interesting. I think while maintaining a real food diet is fundamentally sound and the only way to go, that still leaves a lot open for interpretation. Maybe some will (clearly, some already have) do well with this and others not so much. That doesn’t invalidate it. There are too many individual variables here to account for to make anything law.

  65. ilise says:

    Tater some questions on your novel.. (great details!)

    Did you have problems with sleep before managing your blood glucose levels with potato starch (sorry if you have answered this already)

    When you were eating the green banana in Hawaii where these regular bananas like you can purchase here in super market? Also how green? I like my bananas green, firm and not sweet but cant manage to eat more than a few a week as they ripened too quickly.

    Does the potato starch prevent the BG crashes (60’s) (I have the same BG pattern as you by the way)

    Are you not concerned with the 160 spike with the baked potato for lunch? And after such a lunch your blood glucose doesn’t dip low like in the 60s as before? Have you tested hours out after such a lunch?
    Is this the entire lunch just plain baked potato? (on such a test day-did you have breakfast or just the 4tbls potato starch?

    What would dinner BG numbers look like on such a day?

    Did you have normal bowel movements before potato starch?

  66. tatertot says:

    @Todd – Yes, a lot to take in. One thing I don’t think you’ll see Richard or me do is come up with some kind of ‘RS Protocol’ promising huge results if followed closely. One day someone will get rich with all this, but for now it’s N=1’s on using these different starches for RS.

    I don’t think targeting RS from real foods is a waste of time, but it is probably inadequate. I tried hard to crack that nut and got close, but using a scoop of potato starch is so much easier. The only way I can justify potato starch or banana flour over real food is the simple fact that I could make it myself, at home, with no special equipment, if I wished to.

    To make potato starch you simply grind potatoes, wring them out while rinsing in cold water, drain the water and dry the starch. One big potato will yield 20-30g of RS. To make banana flour, dry some plantains, grind into powder–done. One big plantain will yield 30-50g of RS.

    This is what scares me about Hi-Maize; I can’t make it at home. It is somehow heat-treated so it retains RS even if used in cooking. Similar to the SuperStarch that UCan sells. It may work, may be a great source of RS, but if I can’t make it at home, do I really want it?

  67. ilise says:

    Tater..re-“RS and second-meal effect:” and
    ” SCFA
    produced from colonic fermentation ”

    I think I read in one of the studies that is was RS4 that created SCFAs and not the RS2
    Correct?

  68. ilise says:

    YOu could juice the potato and collect the starch that settles to the bottom afterwards. Im always amazed how much starch is at the bottom for just one potato.
    By the way the potato juice is helpful for sleep as well.

  69. tatertot says:

    @ilise –

    I have had the classic go to bed at 10pm, wake at 2am for a little bit, then back to sleep until the alarm goes off at 6am sleep pattern that it seems many other people get when they adopt paleo eating. If I eat 4TBS of RPS between dinner and bedtime, I will not usually wake at 2am, but sleep all the way through. When I was targeting RS from real foods, I’d notice that on nights I slept soundly, I’d wake up with low FBG. On nights I woke up at 2am, I’d have higher FBG. I haven’t wrapped my mind around all this yet, but I think it has to do with nighttime glucose regulation, glycogen storage, liver metabolism, and a host of other interrelated things that go on with metabolism at night.

    The green bananas I was eating in Hawaii were called apple-bananas, they are about half the size of a standard Dole storebought banana. I have to say–they were not very good! It was hard to eat them, had to wash every bite down with a swig of coffee or water, but I think it was the first time I experienced RS in the ranges used in the studies and it made me want to dig deeper.

    I have found that RPS prevents glucose crashes in me, and in the literature, for RS in general. When I take RPS in the morning, it evens out BG over the day. Taken at night, it lowers FBG, but BG throughout the day is a bit more fluctuating. It probably all evens out in the end.

    The 160 spike doesn’t concern me at all. That’s with nothing but potato, no butter or anything, same as going to the doc for an oral glucose tolerance test. It’s not how I eat potatoes every day. Adding butter or sour cream lowers the glycemic index and slows the digestion of the potato–that’s how you are supposed to eat them, anyway.

    The first time I saw the second-meal effect I couldn’t believe it. It always took 3 hours to get to FBG levels, but with 4TBS of RPS several hours prior to eating, BG returned to FBG level in about 1 hour exactly with no crash. I hope a couple others here try it and report if it works for them, too. It’s easy to run a test, just takes about 8 test strips.

    I’ve checked after dinner, and the second-meal effect doesn’t extend out to a third meal. Weird, huh? Usually my dinners are a big mixed affair of meat, veggies, rice, potatoes, cheese, chocolate, fruit, so usually don’t cause big BG spikes.

    All-in-all, I think the best for me is getting my RS after dinner, getting a good night’s sleep, and waking with low FBG. Another bonus to having it after dinner is I don’t get the snacky feeling I sometimes get in the evening.

    As to BM’s, I never really had any issues with them before, but I have noticed changes since, and not for the worse.

  70. tatertot says:

    @ilise – SCFA is a byproduct of the microbes that eat RS. It gets produced without RS, but not in the same amounts presumably. Doesn’t have to be RS4, all RS does it.

    The primary producer of RS is a bug called “Eubacterium rectale”. It was shown to grow more with RS2 than RS4. A brief description of it from: http://ijs.sgmjournals.org/content/58/7/1735.full

    “E. rectale is one of the major species in the human colon that is responsible for butyrate formation. This is an important trait, as butyrate, which is one of the three major short chain fatty acids (SCFA) formed in the colon, is the preferred energy source for colonocytes and has a protective effect against colon disease”

  71. marie says:

    Richard, just to be clear, I wouldn’t recommend them raw, the taste and texture is barely edible with enough cream and butter, not to mention taking care in cleaning to avoid the known potential dangers of raw potatoes. It does work as a control for the experiment though, confirming that BG barely rises in this mashed form, just like for pure RS.

  72. tatertot says:

    Here’s an interesting article I just stumbled across from 2007 http://www.colorectal-cancer.ca/en/news-and-resources/cooked-cooled-starch/

    In it, the author notes that pigs fed raw potato starch had healthier intestines than other pigs due to the RS. Her conclusion: eat more potato salad. I can’t believe I am the first person to figure out that we should eat potato starch. It was right there in front of us all these years.

    “…An animal study done in Spain showed that pigs fed larger quantities of raw potato starch had healthier intestines than pigs fed their regular diet. The potato starch-eating pigs also had lower levels of certain white blood cells in their blood.

    Fewer white blood cells showing up implies that there is less inflammation. Inflammation in the body seems to increase risks of chronic disease, including cardiovascular disease and cancer.

    Starch consumption in particular is thought to decrease risk for colon cancer. The lower levels of inflammation from the potato starch might correspond to fewer problems with irritable bowel syndrome.

    The key ingredient in the raw potato starch the pigs ate is something called resistant starch. This type of starch is not digested well in the small intestine, and continues on into the large intestine. The bacteria present in the large intestine feed upon this resistant starch.

    Certain bacteria are very helpful in maintaining intestinal health. Adequate bacteria in the large intestine, or colon, allows for more production of short-chain fatty acids. These particular fatty acids keep the cells that line the large intestine healthy, thus decreasing risk for colon cancer.

    There may be other roles for these short-chain fatty acids, too, involving weight loss and lowering blood cholesterol…

    …Even though you may now see potato salad in a new light, that shouldn’t give you license to goop on all the fat you can.

    Potato salads loaded down with mayonnaise or oil might keep your intestines healthy, but all that fat can pack on the pounds.”

  73. ilise says:

    Thank you very much Tater for taking the time to respond.

    I have same sleep cycle. I eat pretty much paleo (before I knew about paleo) to control BG. I discovered that extra magnesium and potassium are necessary (for me) to shorten the wakeful period after waking up at 2am. Without supplementing extra magnesium and potassium it can take me anywhere from 2-4 hrs to get back to sleep. I’ve also had some luck with combo of Bobs apple fiber combined with apple pectin (recently added larch powder). I suspect poor glycogen storage as I tend to get hypoglycemia during exercise no matter what I do.

    So while in Hawaii you just got the notion to eat a lot of bad tasting bananas? (I suppose you had been researching RS before the trip)

    Have you tried the 4tbs serving in the AM and PM/before bed?
    (if you take the RS at night does this also prevent crashes during the next day?)

    I misunderstood your lunch of potato. So everyday you have potato with butter/sour cream?
    Have you tried other fast carbs like white flour with similar results?
    Does potato starch allow you to cheat and still get the same results?

    I often get the second meal effect after eating carbs with breakfast-any carbs with breakfast will lower my post prandial lunch numbers quicker/lower than normal BUT at the cost of signs of too high insulin (or insulin resistance) which for me are acne and oily skin as well as disturbed sleep patterns.

    You didnt mention what you eat/ate for breakfast.

    Thanks again this is really interesting as I never considered consuming RS. Oddly I wrote a research paper on it 21 years ago for one of my nutrition classes. At the time in my mind I equated it to some sort of “resistant/insoluable fiber”

  74. ilise says:

    thanks Tater for clarifying about SCFA and RS. I missed that.

  75. tatertot says:

    @ilise – I normally don’t eat breakfast, lunch at 11am of potato, sardines, and a dry salad, then dinner at 6pm. This keeps my weight rock-steady and lets me do all the exercising I want. I tend to gain easily if I overeat for a few weeks.

    Funny you did a paper on RS. Everyone misses it! Check out this paper from 2007: http://www.colorectal-cancer.ca/en/news-and-resources/cooked-cooled-starch/
    She says, in my words: Pigs eat raw potato starch and show miraculous health…therefore we should eat more potato salad…here’s a recipe.

    I can’t believe everyone missed eating potato starch, or banana flour,\or even Hi-maize all these years.

  76. ilise says:

    this is off topic from your post Richard but I had a question regarding bifidus and RS..
    is this all forms of RS–again I think I read that only RS4 had the effect and not the potato starch many of us are going to be trying.
    I would love to increase my bifidus as it was shown to be low on previous testing.

  77. Ilise, you keep saying that only RS4 works. Perhaps only the studies you are looking at show that RS4 works.

    Here’s my problem with that and how I’d look at it if I were you. RS4 is not natural. It’s created via a chemical process manipulated in a lab.

    I would bet that if a company had a vested interest in selling RS2 for health reasons, we would see studies showing that RS2 works EVEN BETTER. Because it’s the form our bodies and bacteria have been seeing for a long ass time.

  78. “In plainer terms, you are not qualified to even have an opinion in this specific area. All you’ve done, sadly, is expose the fact that you are utterly ignorant about resistant starch and how it’s digested and is differentiated entirely from the kind of starch everyone is familiar with.”

    You are right, my knowledge of resistant starch is minimal, only what I have learned here and reading various articles today. I had never considered RS in the control of my weight and diabetes. I will not pass any more opinions, but I do want to learn, maybe I can ask a question or two, regarding the medium rare mashed potatoes.

    “Then, repeat the experiment. Only, this time, instead of potato starch, you’re using another potato. You’re going to cook it sous vide for a few hours (2-3, probably). I’d suggest a setting of 130F. Word is the RS bursts and becomes rapidly digesting at 140, so 130 ought give a good margin for error. If it works, they’ll henceforth be known as “medium rare mashed potatoes.”

    Looking at various nutrition books and charts the carb content for potatoes can vary enormously. For the sake of the experiment have you decided on the weight of the finished medium rare mashed potatoes as a portion size, and cooking in the way you describe, have you any idea what the carb content is likely to be per 100 grams of ready to eat food.

    I have read “If the benefits of the resistant starch come from its conversion to butyrate a pat of butter contains 1.45 g butyrate. Two pats of butter contain 3 g or about 1.5 times the amount generated by the resistant starch component of the potato”

    Do you or any of the readers have any details, or opinions as to whether butyrate is the component of resistant starch that brings the benefits outlined and discussed.

  79. Phillip Upton says:

    I think you may have misread what Jamie Scott (not Smith) said regarding grains and resistant starch.

    Quote: But there is nothing at all – no nutrient whatsoever – that grains can provide me that I do not already get from vegetables, starchy roots, fruits, and of course, meat. Not one. Including resistant starch.

    He isn’t saying that grains *are* resistant starch. He is responding to someone who said that grains *provide* resistant starch (which he isn’t denying).

    He is saying that *anything* you want from grains (including RS) can be gotten somewhere else. And that you are better of getting it somewhere else… instead of grains.

    And, quite frankly, I see no hubris in telling someone to ditch grains on a nutritional basis.

    –Phillip

  80. ilise says:

    Cody ..YES! I think thats what I was getting at. I have a problem with the fact that RS4 is not natural form of RS and I dont trust it one bit. Thanks for bringing that back to mind. I had considered it.

    The person who claimed the RS foodstuffs raised their BG should try a natural form and report back.

  81. MsMcGillicuddy says:

    @tater – any idea why Hi-Maize is not yet a household name? If someone was going to make crazy money off this, wouldn’t those folks have already?

    Purely as a simple experiment, my only meal today was a bowl of raw oats (I see they are like 3rd on the list of highest RS foods) and two green bananas. I can’t remember a time when I felt quite so sated for so many hours with this amount of food. I am now wondering about the satiety factor of RS.

  82. tatertot says:

    @Ilise – Gut Flora is very confusing. Bifidus is an entire family (order) of microbes found in the gut. RS2 definitely impacts several of these species. The family tree looks like this:

    Kingdom: Bacteria
    Phylum: Actinobacteria
    Class: Actinobacteria
    Subclass: Actinobacteridae
    Order: Bifidobacteriales
    Family: Bifidobacteriaceae
    Genus: Bifidobacterium

    Species:

    B. adolescentis
    B. angulatum
    B. animalis
    B. asteroides
    B. bifidum
    B. boum
    B. breve
    B. catenulatum
    B. choerinum
    B. coryneforme
    B. cuniculi
    B. denticolens
    B. dentium
    B. gallicum
    B. gallinarum
    B. indicum
    B. inopinatum
    B. infantis
    (For B. lactis see B. animalis)
    B. longum
    B. magnum
    B. merycicum
    B. minimum
    B. pseudocatenulatum
    B. pseudolongum
    B. pullorum
    B. ruminantium
    B. saeculare
    B. subtile
    B. thermacidophilum
    B. thermophilum

    This study: http://aem.asm.org/content/67/8/3469.full says:
    “…inclusion of resistant starches in the diet has been shown to increase the population of bifidobacteria in the intestinal tract. Resistant starches have therefore also been proposed as potential prebiotics.” (they used potato starch as an example of RS)

    But this is probably the most comprehensive work ever done on bifidus and RS using potato starch:
    http://www.agriculturejournals.cz/publicFiles/56586.pdf

    “Bacteria such as certain species of Bifidobacterium metabolise undigested polysaccharides such as
    resistant starch, using this component as a source of carbon and energy necessary for the growth
    The resistant starch fraction exhibits some potential physiological effects such as improved glycaemic and insulinaemic responses, improved bowel health, improved blood lipid profile, increased satiety, and reduced energy intake.”

  83. tatertot says:

    MsM – I think that National Starch, Inc wished that Hi-Maize was a household word, but they are marketing toward industrial bakeries. The only place I’ve seen you can buy Hi-Maize for home use is from King Arthur Flour and Honeyville http://www.amazon.com/Hi-Maize-Resistant-Starch-Pound-Bag/dp/B00993APG8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1367960858&sr=8-1&keywords=hi-maize+resistant+starch

    They are selling it to be mixed with regular flour in baking–not eaten alone for RS, although I see on the Hi-Maize website it says ‘added to smoothies’ as a way of using it.

    I think they want to sell in mass quantities on an industrial scale and there isn’t enough interest in RS yet to target sales to people wanting RS.

  84. tatertot says:

    @eddie mitchell – Just to address the butyrate question: The butyrate obtained from RS is derived from microbes eating the RS and ‘crapping’ butyrate. This butyrate is deposited in the large intestine where it is used as energy by colonocytes and is seen as the main protective factor from colon cancer.

    Butyrate eaten in the form of butter never makes it to the large intestine. It is absorbed into the bloodstream as any fatty acid would be.

    Any time the argument of butyrate comes up in a discussion of RS, people always say, “I can get all the butyrate I need from butter” but it’s not true.

  85. tatertot says:

    More on Hi-Maize; someone said, why aren’t the makers of Hi-Maize making lots of money? Actually they are! Here is a write up on their business model: http://www.businessreviewcanada.ca/reports/national-starch

    “National Starch is the leading global supplier of specialty starches, primarily focused on the food processing industry. Additionally, the company serves the papermaking and other high-end industrial applications. The company’s goal is to be seen as the partner of choice for the food industry by harnessing the power of innovation for the next generation of food products.

    With is continued drive for innovation and commitment to the industries it serves, National Starch is better equipped than ever to strengthen its position as a leading solutions provider. “As a globally diversified company, with a constant stream of new products, we are in a good position to weather this economic downturn,” says Zallie. As examples, he cited new product introductions in the US and Europe that deliver on texture, nutrition and health and wellness, and an expanded presence in emerging markets.”

  86. Thank you tatertot.

  87. tatertot says:

    @Cody – You said: “I would bet that if a company had a vested interest in selling RS2 for health reasons, we would see studies showing that RS2 works EVEN BETTER. Because it’s the form our bodies and bacteria have been seeing for a long ass time.”

    Hi-Maize is RS2. Look at most of the newer studies on RS, you will see the names National Starch or Con-Agra, their parent company in the funding partners section. The fact that they are behind many of the studies makes a lot of people nervous about the claims of RS–‘it’s all marketing hype’ as some say.

    I had the same initial reaction, but found there were also hundreds of studies done using potato starch and other RS sources, so I was able to get past the big-money connection.

  88. tatertot says:

    http://www.colorectal-cancer.ca/en/news-and-resources/cooked-cooled-starch/

    In this article, the author notes, “An animal study done in Spain showed that pigs fed larger quantities of raw potato starch had healthier intestines than pigs fed their regular diet. The potato starch-eating pigs also had lower levels of certain white blood cells in their blood.

    Fewer white blood cells showing up implies that there is less inflammation. Inflammation in the body seems to increase risks of chronic disease, including cardiovascular disease and cancer.

    Starch consumption in particular is thought to decrease risk for colon cancer. The lower levels of inflammation from the potato starch might correspond to fewer problems with irritable bowel syndrome.

    The key ingredient in the raw potato starch the pigs ate is something called resistant starch. This type of starch is not digested well in the small intestine, and continues on into the large intestine. The bacteria present in the large intestine feed upon this resistant starch.”

    But what is the conclusion?

    Eat more potato salad! Why does everybody miss the obvious solution: Eat Potato Starch, just like the friggin’ pigs!

  89. @tatertot, I was thinking Hi Maize was RS4 for some reason.

    I was just responding to a couple of comments that were saying only RS4 worked for increasing colon bacteria and butyrate production.

    I didn’t bother to go look and see what studies were there, my comment was to the effect that if there are benefits to RS4, a man-made chemical, I’m betting that there are even more benefits to RS2, a naturally occurring version.

    I figured you would have the studies to back that up.

  90. tatertot says:

    I have an article from a Canadian website, but for some reason can’t copy the link and paste it, anyway, in the article the author observes:

    “An animal study done in Spain showed that pigs fed larger quantities of raw potato starch had healthier intestines than pigs fed their regular diet. The potato starch-eating pigs also had lower levels of certain white blood cells in their blood.

    Fewer white blood cells showing up implies that there is less inflammation. Inflammation in the body seems to increase risks of chronic disease, including cardiovascular disease and cancer.

    Starch consumption in particular is thought to decrease risk for colon cancer. The lower levels of inflammation from the potato starch might correspond to fewer problems with irritable bowel syndrome.

    The key ingredient in the raw potato starch the pigs ate is something called resistant starch. This type of starch is not digested well in the small intestine, and continues on into the large intestine. The bacteria present in the large intestine feed upon this resistant starch.

    Certain bacteria are very helpful in maintaining intestinal health. Adequate bacteria in the large intestine, or colon, allows for more production of short-chain fatty acids. These particular fatty acids keep the cells that line the large intestine healthy, thus decreasing risk for colon cancer.

    There may be other roles for these short-chain fatty acids, too, involving weight loss and lowering blood cholesterol.”

    Ok, great. But what is her natural conclusion? That we should eat more potato salad! Why does everyone miss the obvious solution?

    Eat potato starch! Just like the pigs!

  91. tatertot says:

    @Cody – No, you are doing great! I thought the same thing about Hi-Maize for a long time. I still am not sure it’s really RS2 since they process it in a hydrothermal bath. Something they do to it makes it stable to bake with. All other RS2 disappears in heat.

    I wonder if they aren’t going out of their way to make it look like Hi-Maize is RS2 because they would take a lot of criticism if it were declared RS4 (not found in nature). Remember, this is the same company that brought us High fructose Corn Syrup!

  92. ilise says:

    Tater thank you!! very clear information and clarification. I think you be a RS specialist for one of those companies.

    Curious though how they are marketing it to be baked when that nullifies the effects of RS.

    also found this
    http://www.journalofanimalscience.org/content/75/9/2453.full.pdf

  93. tatertot says:

    Sometimes I feel like I should be getting paid by somebody! Ar first, I wrote and researched a lot on RS to convince myself, now I do it to spark that same interest in others.

    A buddy just sent me this:

    174 page PhD thesis of a student from Iowa university with the conclusion:

    “As a conclusion, prebiotic effects of resistant starch were confirmed by our studies.
    Bifidobacterium spp. and Clostridium spp. are major RS fermentation associated bacteria
    identified in our studies. ”

    I am going to try to read through it when I have time, but it is a doozy! It was written in 2010.
    http://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2638&context=etd&sei-redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt%26rct%3Dj%26q%3Dresistant%2520starch%2520not%2520necessary%2520for%2520gut%2520health%26source%3Dweb%26cd%3D20%26ved%3D0CGAQFjAJOAo%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Flib.dr.iastate.edu%252Fcgi%252Fviewcontent.cgi%253Farticle%253D2638%2526context%253Detd%26ei%3DgeL6UMH5JYuI0QHUnICoBQ%26usg%3DAFQjCNH6YHMIgUpq8TCenTTyiSlqu_YVbw%26sig2%3DLLYwwGLx0lEM5vW3WUC88A%26bvm%3Dbv.41248874%2Cd.dmQ#search=%22resistant%20starch%20not%20necessary%20gut%20health%22

  94. MsMcGillicuddy says:

    My eyes are glazing over after so much reading today on this topic, LOL – much of it centered around the green banana…apparently, it’s been widely used to feed hogs, but the hogs when given equal amounts of unripe and ripe bananas, eat less of the green banana due to flavor issues.
    There’s quite a bit of info online on the effect of feeding green bananas to animals, not sure if anything could be stretched to speculate on human consumption.

    Just one source below, there are more:
    http://www.fao.org/docrep/003/T0554E/T0554E17.htm

  95. @tatertot
    or anyone who knows:

    How long must the potatoes be cooled to form optimal levels of RS? I like to bake mine and then throw them in the freezer to quickly cool them for a couple hours…the texture is fantastic.

  96. ilise says:

    You could market yourself well into a position Im sure. You are quite convincing, def sparked my interest. I do hope the potato starch works as well for me and if it does I will be spreading the news.

    that last study is a dozy -plz report back.

  97. tatertot says:

    @Rhys – The optimal temperature to form RS from cooked potatoes is between 32 and 40 degrees F. For comparison’s sake, a large potato raw contains about 30g RS, cooked it contains 1-3g, cooked and cooled 3-6g.

  98. Chuck Currie says:

    @tatertot you are doing a yeoman’s job on this thread – Thank You.

    Ok – what about rice cakes. I don’t eat them but my wife and mom do.

    I going to give the RPS after dinner a shot because I have the same sleep pattern you described above – in bed at 10, up at 2 to pee, usually go right back to sleep, wake up any where from 5 to 6. Some nights, up at 2 for an hour or two and then back to sleep until 6.

    Thanks again for all your input.

    Cheers

  99. tatertot says:

    If anybody has a Google Account, they should invite Ned Kock at the Health Correlator to come and look at this post. He wrote about his trip to S. Korea recently and remarked,

    “In our meal, the way in which at least one of the carbohydrate-rich items was prepared possibly decreased its digestible carbohydrate content, and thus its calorie content, in a significant way. I am referring to the rice, which had been boiled, cooled and stored, way before it was re-heated and served. This likely turned some of its starch content, maybe a lot of it, into resistant starch (4). Resistant starch is essentially treated by our digestive system as fiber.”

    http://healthcorrelator.blogspot.com/2013/05/trip-to-south-korea-hidden-reasons-for.html

  100. tatertot says:

    @Chuck – Rice cakes probably have a bit, but like 5g in a whole bag.

  101. Jason says:

    Just wondering about popcorn, sorry didn’t read through the 99 comments so far to see if it has been answered. Popcorn cools quickly, so was wondering if the RS would increase like a cooled potato would, assuming there is much RS to begin with.

  102. MsMcGillicuddy says:

    @tatertot – let me add my voice to the chorus – thank you so much for all your helpful info and responses.

    @anyone – if there are studies linking starch to colon health, conversely – are there studies linking very low carb diets to poor colon health or colon cancer – I seem to recall links between meat eating and poor colon health? – not attacking meat, just trying to understand, lol.

  103. John D. says:

    So which is the premade resistant starch product that is recommended? Is it a product by Bob’s red Mill? And if so, which one?

  104. tatertot says:

    @Jason – I tried really hard to find an RS content in popcorn since I loves me some popcorn, but couldn’t. I assume there is little to no RS in it sadly.

    @MsM – There are lots of studies suggesting RS is protective of the damage supposedly done by red meat in the colon. http://cancerpreventionresearch.aacrjournals.org/content/4/11/1920.full.pdf for instance

    @JohnD – I’ve never seen any RS4 products for sale, only read about them. They have names like Hylon and Fibersym, mainly used in food processing I think. http://www.mgpingredients.com/innovation/fibersym/faq/

  105. diane says:

    Is it Green Plantain Flour is the same as Green Banana Flour?Plantain is vegetable and banana is a fruit.. same nutrients same amount of RS????? I read a lot of good things about green bananas. why not to use banana flour???

  106. Jason says:

    The African market where I get my red palm oil also carries FuFu. Some is made with cassava, and there is also plantain fufu and a mixture of both. Wondering if this may also be a good source of RS

  107. I doubt it Jason, since fufu is cooked and that destroys the RS, so you’ll be in the same boat as with cooked & cooled potatoes. A little, not much.

  108. John D. says:

    Is eating cooked and then cooled potatoes enough to get the benefits of resistant starch? I.e., is it enough to nuke potatoes in the microwave oven, let them cool to room temperature, and then eat as-is?

    Would doing that give me a significant amount of resistant starch?

  109. John D

    Nope. A large russet has about 30g raw, but when cooked and cooled it’s only like 3g or thereabouts.

  110. John D. says:

    Thanks, Richard.

    I apologize if I missed it somewhere in the article or comments, but what’s the easiest and cheapest recommended way to either make or buy resistant starch then? (I don’t have a sous vide yet.)

  111. MsMcGillicuddy says:

    Scrolled through a book last night written by a dietician, David Feder on the subject of creating an RS based diet. The book is light on science, heavy on recipes – so you get the drift
    Nevertheless, some random comments for those who may enjoy (like me) the digging:
    “The Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organization (CSIRO) in Adelaide, Australia is one of the leading research centers on RS, indicating intakes of 20 grams per day may be necessary to reap major health benefits”
    “Scientific studies of foods rich in resistant starch found that such “low and slow” cooking techniques significantly increase the amount of RS in the final products” (My note: I was not aware that the increase would be considered “significant”)
    “Multiple studies show that RS helps decrease deposits of body fat in several ways”
    ” A 2007 study of diabetics found that eating foods with 30 grams of RS per day reduced BMI”
    He lists the work of Janine Higgins at the Univ. of Colorado as a major RS researcher.

  112. MsMcGillicuddy says:

    @tatertot – RE: Ned Kock’s comment… we know that Asians use those electric rice cookers to hold cooked rice at consistent temps for many hours (and some even days!) at a time. I would be curious to know the RS content of cooked rice held in those cookers and over time.

  113. MsMcGillicuddy says:

    Some of these questions we are now getting show that people are not reading the comments for comprehension purposes, lol.

  114. ilise says:

    we need a facts page.
    John easiest route is to purchase Bobs potato starch
    http://www.iherb.com/Bob-s-Red-Mill-Potato-Starch-Unmodified-24-oz-680-g/12295

    not flour–but starch
    Found some at my local whole foods.

  115. John D. says:

    Hey, Mark, thanks for the shitty comment; I hope it made you feel superior for a moment.

    I appreciate the help, ilise — there’s a whole a lot of conflicting opinion and armchair theorizing in these posts and comments.

  116. There’s an Amazon link in the post where you can get 4 packages (about 5 pounds) for something like $15.

  117. @John D. I would focus on what tatertot and Tricky Dick are saying. Not that the others don’t provide interesting background noise, but so far, none of the other commenters has really provided the same depth of knowledge or thoughtfulness.

  118. BTW all who are getting comment notification. Sous vide mashed taters: FAIL! Even almost 24 hours at 135, just does not soften the fibers enough to make anything resembling mashed potatoes, even with butter & cream and lots of food processing.

    I’ll put an update to the post later.

  119. John D. says:

    Cody, agreed.

    Richard, thanks. I’ll go with the Bob’s red Mill starch.

  120. Notice: yesterday I flew off the handle in a stupid outburst directed at Jamie Smith @thatpaleoguy on Twitter and a comment here. I’ve deleted those tweets and the comment and have tweeted apologies @ Jamie.

  121. I wonder if adding salted water to the process would help on the Sous Vide thing? And maybe shredding or dicing the potatoes first, so that there is more surface area exposed. Should speed up the process.

    What about vinegar?

    I may have to buy one of these machines and experiment.

  122. Just to keep things on the up & up.

    http://primalmeded.com/2013/05/08/resistant-starch-the-missing-ingredient-part-1/

    Strikes me as a bit of hand waiving. Why not give it a try? Personally, my satiety is through the roof a couple of weeks into this.

  123. MsMcGillicuddy says:

    Thanks for the link Richard. Interesting read – wondering if this guy is cherry picking his studies to confirm his position? of course, that can happen from any writer. Will be even more interesting of course to see how this all flushes out, pun intended.

    Also, interesting link included to the paper written by the nutritionist and apparently funded by the starch companies, since I scanned it twice quickly and have yet to see listed whole food sources of RS, only commercial processed foods where RS has been added.

  124. tatertot says:

    @Richard – I wouldn’t say the sous-vide experiment was a total waste of time. I made some last night that turned out pretty good. Not as mashed potatoes, but as crispy potato slices.

    I peeled and sliced a bunch of potatoes very thin. Heated water in a large pan to 140 degrees, took it off the heat and dropped potatoes in. I let them sit covered in the hot water as it cooled. After 2 hours, I drained them. At this point they were flexible and crisp. I chopped them into smaller pieces, seasoned with salt, pepper and cayenne. I thought they were very tasty.

    These would make an excellent base for potato salad. I saved about a pound’s worth for my lunch today. I sprinkled them with vinegar last night and plan on eating them cold today in a couple of hours to check my BG afterwards. They remind me of German Potato Salad.

    I call it a ‘WIN’.

  125. That article wasn’t really worth the time to read it.

    I think it’s material posted for the sake of posting. To keep readership up.

    Why doesn’t this guy STFU and try it himself???

    Stuff like this pisses me off…

  126. tatertot says:

    I could have written that very same article a month after I heard of RS and found a couple dozen studies backed by National Starch–I thought it was all hype.

    Mark Sisson wrote a similar scathing piece a few years ago: http://primalmeded.com/2013/05/08/resistant-starch-the-missing-ingredient-part-1/

    as did Dr. Eades: http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/metabolism/resistant-starch/

    They are all missing the point. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

  127. Austin Pitts says:

    @tatertot – Did you say German Potato Salad :) Did you make a vinegar sauce to go with them or just vinegar?

  128. tatertot says:

    @Austin – I just used vinegar because I want to test my BG response after eating them, but I have an AWESOME vinegar sauce that is good hot or cold:

    mix 1 cup water, 1/4 cup vinegar, 2TBS sugar. Bring to boil. Mix in 1/4 cup of potato starch pre-mixed with 2TBS cold water. Stir until thickened. Pour over potato cubes. The sauce in this case has no RS, but the potatoes, prepared sous-vide are chock-full.

  129. tatertot says:

    I see I put the wrong link to Sisson’s ‘debunking’ of RS. Here’s the right link: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/is-central-heating-related-to-obesity/

  130. Jay Jay says:

    And old-time folk remedy for diarrhea is a corn starch enema.

    Maybe they were on to something?

    That could be another way to by- pass digestion in the small intestine, and possibly feed the “good bugs” directly.

  131. tatertot says:

    @JJ – I hadn’t heard that.

    Green plantains, which is where banana flour comes from, is also a cure for diarrhea, but taken through the mouth!

    “Our results support the benefits of green plantain in the dietary management of persistent diarrhea in hospitalized children, in relation to diarrheal duration, weight gain and costs. “

  132. MsMcGillicuddy says:

    and let’s not forget the increasingly popular fecal transplant solution for good health. Bottoms up!

  133. Jay Jay says:

    tater tot,

    Glad you clarified that the green plantains are to be eaten.

    The n=1 experimentation for the direct feed approach could get very weird very quickly….

  134. “And old-time folk remedy for diarrhea is a corn starch enema”

    I made a joke on these lines down the pub last night. Many a thing said in jest eh.

  135. diane says:

    Please is anyone know the answer for my question?
    Green Plantain Flour is the same as Green Banana Flour?Plantain is vegetable and banana is a fruit.. same nutrients same amount of RS????? I read a lot of good things about green bananas. why not to use banana flour???

  136. tatertot says:

    @Diane – Sorry, I missed that! Plantain and banana are the same thing, just different varieties. Normally plantains have less sugar and have to be eaten cooked, while bananas have lots of sugar when ripe. When green, they are practically indistinguishable.

    I see on line you can buy either green banana flour or plantain flour. Both of these are probably made from the exact same thing. This website
    Sells green banana flour, but upon reading, you find, ” WEDO banana flour is made from green plantain bananas, a staple food for many poor countries but rarely mentioned in the United States.”

    If there is a banana flour made from the bananas we are used to as ‘eating bananas’ or sometimes called ‘dessert bananas’, I don’t know. As far as I am concerned plantain flour and banana flour is the exact same thing.

    Most banana or plantain flour should be approx 5g RS per TBS.

    I have a bag of this: http://www.amazon.com/Barry-Farm-Plantain-Flour-lb/dp/B000F9ZM5Y
    Plantain flour from Amazon.com at $9.44/pound. There was a less expensive brand, but I went with this one for no good reason. I have been finding it blends well in smoothies, but haven’t experimented much more than that. I think it would make a good pudding with chocolate and heavy cream, too.

  137. TJ the Grouch says:

    @tatertot – Thank you so much for all the info posted. You did one heck of a job compiling all this stuff. I’m sure I’m not the only one who highly appreciates your efforts. THANKS!

  138. tatertot says:

    @TJ – This is just a hobby for me. I could easily have went on my merry way quietly sipping RS smoothies. The real thanks goes to Richard for letting me use his blog as a sounding board for all this. I get great amusement feeling out bloggers on different things–many are so closed-minded it’s unreal! Richard is always up for the latest unheard of approach which is what drew me here with the potato hack last year. I just hope a couple of you guys try this stuff out and report back and spread the word.

  139. Trying to be open minded enough, not so much that brains fall out.

  140. I often tell people that I can be convinced of anything, but I still have to be convinced

  141. MsMcGillicuddy says:

    My wild guess is that word on something like doesn’t spread until someone thinks they can make big $. The low carb gurus dismissed it and the starch companies went their own way sewing up the wholesale processed foods market. The rest scratched their heads since they couldn’t come up with a way to patent a green banana or a raw potato.

  142. tatertot says:

    You hit the nail on the head! One of my motivations for spreading the word on RS is that when it finally does hit mainstream, a whole bunch of people will know they don’t need to buy expensive supplements or think they have to eat fortified grain. Potato starch and banana flour–not many will get rich there!

    I would love to see someone put together a cheap product containing the paleo starches and market it for RS.

  143. diane says:

    what happened???? no post today????

  144. Had other stuff going on today. But I did start a draft early morning that I should get out tomorrow. In other news, just did the first full, 30 hour water fast with a hard workout at the 28-hr point that I’ve done in years. Doing another either sat/sun or sun/mon.

  145. Found a blog post from the “Digestive Health Institute” on Resistant Starch:

  146. Trevor says:

    I’m on day 3 of my RS experiment (have been using Bob’s Red Mill Potato Starch Unmodified mixed with water).

    I think I’ve noticed feeling well satiated and definitely have noticed feeling very well rested. But the most prominent change I’ve noticed is gas.. farts..toots.. and lots of them. Anyone else noticed this?

    Also, I’ve been only dosing RS in the morning, are others doing morning and evening?

  147. Jay Jay says:

    I took the plunge and tried it this morning. I started out with just 1 TBS potato starch. Stirred it into a coffee cup full of cold water.

    It actually didn’t taste or feel bad. A little bitter, or astringent might be a better word. Like really week tea.

    I don’t know if it’s the starch, or just a coincidence, but I had some major lower GI issues this afternoon. The strangest diarrhea I’ve ever had, followed by all kinds of rumblings, and a little gas. I was seriously questioning my wisdom for a while, but everything seems to have passed now. I’ll wait a few days before I try it again.

    Also, I just remembered that I had bought some of that resistant corn starch a few years ago. I was in my hard core low carb phase, when I was eating all kinds of low carb Franken foods. That was before I went Paleoish (my Pleistocene phase?).

    I was trying to develop my own recipe for low carb corn chips, which I was sure would make me rich!

    I bought it here. http://www6.netrition.com/lifesource_rcs260_page.html

    Maybe I’ll try a spoonful of it next week.

  148. Chuck Currie says:

    @Trevor: I’m three days in – doing the after dinner dose – same digestive issues as you – I feel like I did back in my healthy whole grain days – hopefully this is a temporary phase. FBG has improved.

    @tatertot: What’s your experience with digestive issues?

    Cheers

  149. tatertot says:

    I am so sorry – I was subscribed to these comments and getting an email every time a new one appeared, but haven’t gotten any emails since 8 May. I was looking for a specific comment and saw there were several posts, I will try to address them.

  150. tatertot says:

    Jen, the article you linked has left me stunned! It is exactly what I had hoped for. A hard look at RS from a paleo perspective. This should definitely get the ball rolling.

    Much of what Norm Robillard says is spot on! I have not looked at this from a perspective of SIBO or GERD or any other digestive problems. I am pretty healthy in the gut department.

    What I do find ironic, the tome makes it sound like large levels of RS may be problematic, maybe prompting people to star avoiding RS, but then he says:

    “…for SIBO-related conditions allows up to 40 grams of difficult-to-digest carbohydrates per day, including resistant starch.”

    This fits perfectly with the amounts we have been talking about all along! Even the max dose I have been touting of 4TBS of potato starch is only about 32g of RS!

    I can’t believe I missed this.

    @Cody – thanks for picking up the slack! I will put some comments over there as soon as I get some time, maybe later today.

  151. tatertot says:

    @Trevor and Chuck –

    Ref: Toots, I wrote this in a comment on the last RS post:

    tatertot // May 6, 2013 at 12:47

    The gassiness is a sign that things have changed. Yesterday we went out for Mexican food, had lots of beans, corn chips, salsa and a ceviche salad. Normally this would have given me very odoriferous gas, however, a few hours after eating I did get pretty gassy, but they were just airy and light–not noxious. I’ve noticed the same thing after other foods, like kimchi, that used to get me a night in the spare bedroom.

    From Wikipedia link to en.wikipedia.org :

    “Normal flatus volume range is around 476 to 1491ml per 24 hours…This variability between individuals is greatly dependent upon diet. Similarly the number of flatus episodes per day is variable, the normal range is given as 8-20 per day…the first flatulence upon waking in the morning is significantly larger than those during the day…”

    Enter M. Smithii (we’ll call him Smitty for short) link to en.wikipedia.org

    Smitty is a beneficial gut microbe that eats hydrogen and craps methane. He is one of the microbes targeted by obesity researchers and coveted in fecal transplants, because good ol’ Smitty “affects the specificity and efficiency of bacterial digestion of dietary starch, influencing the person’s calorie harvest and body fat.”

    So maybe we need to value our 8-20 farts every day and hope that Smitty is behind a good number of them.

  152. tatertot says:

    Toots part 2:

    Just to make this more readable, I’ll split it up.

    Here’s some more personal observations. I think there is a ‘farting phase’ when you start this. I always try to tell people to start with 1TBS/day for at least a week, then up it by 1TBS a day, until you find a place you like.

    There is no magic dose, I am using 4TBS a day, taken all at once after dinner. This seems to produce the least gas for me.

    Two foods that ALWAYS gassed me up horribly were really ripe bananas and pears. I had some really ripe bananas the other day, and they still gas me up, but the gas I get now is not the ‘hydrogen bomb’ clear-the-room variety, it’s more just airy gas.

    Some people may be experiencing what Mr. Robillard said in his RS article the other day

    This is the first paleo look at RS and may be very valid. If you have SIBO, maybe RS will make things worse.

  153. Trevor says:

    Thank you for the info Tatertot, very interesting.

    I would say I’m exceeding the 20 “toots” mark but like you’ve observed they’ve lacked any noxious smell. Nearly scentless. Very intriguing indeed.

    I’m not SIBO by any stretch of the imagination, and hardly a strict Paleo person so this was mostly undertaken as a fun new experiment.

    Today I switch from 4 TB in the morning to 1.5 TB in the morning and will dose another 1.5 TB this evening. Will be interesting to see if anything changes.

    P.S. I am also not getting follow comment e-mails.

  154. tatertot says:

    @Trevor – I went through several distinct phases when I jumped straight into 4TBS a day: First I noticed changes in stool, much more volume and a ragged appearance–this lasted about 2 weeks, then they normalized. TMI, I know, but there it is! Second phase was increased tooting–it seemed worse with foods that I knew were bad for me, like beans and sweet fruits. This lasted 2-3 weeks. I’m on week 6 of 4TBS/day and can say everything is working fine at this point. Flatulence is normal, even better than before. For the last 10 days, I have taken entire 4TBS in an after-dinner smoothie or mixed with a bit of yogurt and even Cool-whip. I find if I take it right after dinner, all hunger for snacks is gone–and that’s always my downfall!

  155. tatertot says:

    Also, if nothing changed in regards to stool and flatulence it would show this doesn’t work at changing gut microbes. I think it shows big changes!

  156. Jay Jay says:

    I read the article Jen linked, and that got me wondering a bit. I know I have problems digesting fructose and sugar alcohols, so maybe it’s the same with RS.

    I’m going to try it again on Monday, though.

  157. Jen:

    Thanks for that link to Norm’s post. Everyone should read that carefully, especially if you are experiencing gas issues as some have reported. I just dropped this comment (it’s awaiting moderation):

    ~~~

    Norm:

    Fabulous work and I think you’ve really advanced the discussion, giving a perspective that says: this RS deal may not work for everyone and here’s why. On my two posts on the issue, some people trying this have already reported in about massive gas issues (I’ve had that intermittently). That led me to begin searching, led me to SIBO from various clues and now you’ve just confirmed for me that those suspicions were correct.

    I was a lifelong GERD sufferer who was on PPIs for years and got off them via paleo. Over the last 6 years of varying adherence, here’s my general take, for me:

    1. Pure paleo, low, moderate or high carb (tubers, potatoes) knocks out GERD.
    2. Cheats with processed food brings on GERD.
    3. IF 1-2x per week, 24-30 hrs gives lots of headroom, such that moderate #2 will not bring on GERD.
    4. Alcohol beyond very moderate use will bring on GERD (and combined with too much #2 makes it nuclear—think: getting drunk & eating pizza), but #3 provides headroom in that as well.

    To sum it up, good adherence to paleo + IF affords leeway in terms of #2 OR #3, but generally not both at once, unless very moderate.

    Make sense?

    OK, now about my own RS experience and gas. For the first couple of weeks, 4 T of Bob’s Red Mill Potato Starch per day, usually 2T 2x per day, stirred into either milk or kefir. No problems. Sometimes the whole 4T at once. No problems. Then one evening I did 4T in kefir and within an hour experience the most hilarious gas experience of my life. I’m talking enough energy to light a small neighborhood, delivered in intervals of like a 1-3 minutes apart and for like 24 hours. Zero pain, little gurgling, no discomfort, as though they come out of nowhere. Like one second you’re completely normal and a second later have the most massive fart it’s unbelievable.

    And here’s the other thing: they are either completely not malodorous, or only slightly so (this helps quite a lot, if other people happen to be anywhere around because a full 10-second firing can really create quite a cloud of despair over a significant radius :).

    So I can’t put my finger on it. Sometimes gas, sometimes no. Doesn’t seem to matter whether taken with kefir, milk, or water. I haven’t tried enough variables to determine whether dose at one time is a big factor and how close to a meal.

    Fasting may have an impact. Last Wed beginning at 1pm, I initiated a full 30 hr fast (1st time in a long time). Water, coffe, tea only—unsweetened. At the end of the fast I hit the gym for a hard workout, came back, took 10g of BCAAs and 4T potato starch in water, then went for dinner. Huge plate of roast beef au jus, mashed taters & butter au jus, big salad with restaurant blue cheese dressing. No issues. No gas, no GERD.

    So, I’m perplexed a bit.

    Given the above, particularly the non odor of the gas, might you be inclined to think it’s too much PS in one dose getting fermented in the colon, or SIBO?

    Thanks for any clues you can offer.

  158. golooraam says:

    I having gas issues up the chain with 3-4 tbs of RS
    I am going to reduce it to 2 tbs of RS

    I am also going to shift my kefir intake to a drink I have with my evening dinner
    I wish I could say the same about the lack of odor I read above, it’s been just hellacious for me
    like actual hellfire :)

  159. tatertot says:

    Well, maybe 4TBS will end up being overkill. 4TBS should be about 32g. It’s funny that in most of the studies using humans, they never mention this and instead say, ‘amounts up to 50g/day are well tolerated’

    Again, N=1 trumps science!

    I am going to continue with 4TBS/day for a while. My digestion has definitely returned to pre-potato starch levels. Maybe 1-2TBS a day would be a good starting dose for a few weeks or a month.

    I’m hoping we start hearing more N=1’s as well as more bloggers writing about it.

  160. Woodwose says:

    I have been adding 60g of potato starch a day now for 2 weeks wich should translate to about 37g of RS a day, some observations(male 42 years old 80kg, non english as native language).

    IBS and flatulence

    I suffer from a moderate IBS type D. Raw Vegetables, large amount of liquidized fat (like heavy cream) and prepared meats will lead to the D’s and then i feel lethargic for at least a whole day. The first week i had awfully smelling flatulence. After this the flatulence and odor has been greatly reduced. Havent had the D since i started. Sometime during the first week there was also a strange feeling like something was decomposing inside my guts and things where rearanging themselves then the flatulence and intestinal upset died down. Perhaps this was decomposing biofilms as the site “Cooling Inflammation” talks about?. I now feel more robust in my gut then before I started taking RPS. Off-topic but supplementating with L-glutamine, kefir and eating whole canned anchovies (guts and all) are other things i have found help with IBS. But since starting with RS i feel a noticeable improvement.

    Blood glucose

    I havent tracked my blood glucose very carefully but it does seem it is lower by about 1 mmol. I recently pigged out on icecream and candy and when it normally goes up to 11 mmol after 2 hours it was now only up to 8 mmol. I will probably do a more thorough check when I have the time and inclination.

    Cravings

    Wich brings me to cravings. I have been having trouble for awhile with cravings for basically very sugary and fat foods. RS really seems to bring this under control in my case. For example I have gained some fat lately due to a very stressfull situation at work and I tried doing IF this last week and had already eaten a very generous amount inside my 8 hour eating window. nontheless later at night this vacuum like hunger appeared. So i took my 60g of RS and the hunger quickly settled and did not return until lunchtime the next day. Seems it can reduce BG and hunger at the same time. I have tried the same thing with heavy cream during my keto dieting and the satiety effect is nowhere as strong. If is was trying to loose fat fast I would try a diet of RS and whey protein.

    Alcohol

    It seems I now tolerate alcohol better. No strong cravings for that extra glass and i feel better the day after.

  161. Phil Parsons says:

    I’m a pretty big guy (6’4″ 265lbs) and half-measures don’t usually apply, so I jumped right in and had 4tbsp of potato starch last night (Littleton Grist Mill brand http://www.littletongristmillonline.com/Potato-Starch-16oz-GFF7.htm?categoryId=-1 ). I’m LC (<30g carb/day) and a well-controlled (AFBG <90) T1 diabetic as well, so maybe that perspective can add something.

    – I had two servings of 2tbsp in large glasses of water, an hour before dinner (~6pm), and 1 hour after (~8pm), shortly before bed. No real intent to this, 2tbsp just seemed like the saturation point and I didn't want to deal with clumping.

    – Zero post-meal hunger cravings last night (and none this morning as I write this), although that is highly variable for me anyway.

    – At about 8:30pm, I experienced a sudden rush of euphoria – I couldn't stop grinning like an idiot – that lasted for at least a half-hour. It was seriously weird, but nice.

    – Around the same time I became extremely drowsy. Not the exhausted, can't-keep-my-eyes-open kind (my usual, I normally wake up at 4am), just a very pleasant sleepiness that is usually the prelude to a really kick-ass sleep.

    – Sleep was deep, completely refreshing, and filled with rich, detailed, narrative dreams. If I was awakened (usually by cats) I fell back into dream-state effortlessly (unusual for me, I'm one of those when-I'm-up-I'm-up kind of people).

    – The cats had to work extra hard to wake me this morning (they had to send in the Big Gun, our 27lb male, to sit on my chest). If not for them I might have slept till who-knows-when, again highly unusual for me.

    – I was a little bit gassy this morning, and I do feel like there is something afoot in "the works", but nothing like others have reported. However, I am a bit sluggish in this area anyway, so I would have been surprised to experience anything dramatic within the first 12 hours.

    – FBG was about 20 points lower than I would have expected this morning (57mg/dl). Since I am high-fat low-carb the seemingly low number itself isn’t unusual, but I’ve been titrating my long-acting insulin dose and so my numbers have actually been on the high side for the last few days (~100-110mg/dl).

  162. Woodwose and Phil:

    Those are some interesting reports. I can’t figure out the gas thing. Sometimes I have it, and then last evening did a full 4T in water and have not had so much as a tweet. Could be the amount of other food and perhaps whether the PS is taken before eating something else or after. Yesterday was a very light food day. The satiation aspect is, for me, what’s shaping up as the most profound aspect.

    One question, Phil. Did you take you BG after dinner or thereabouts and if so, did you notice anything different than usual?

  163. Phil Parsons says:

    Hi Richard,

    I took the following readings:
    1 hr before dinner – 89mg/dl
    1 hr after dinner – 108mg/dl
    2 hrs after dinner – 82mg/dl

    Dinner itself was sauerkraut and brats (both hand-made at a local farm).

    That’s a *really* mild blood sugar rise, especially with a comparatively low-fat meal (for me). “2nd Meal” effect? If so— hell, that alone is enough to keep me using it. I’m cautiously optimistic…

  164. tatertot says:

    It’s these N=1’s that will change things! Thanks, guys, I really mean that.

    For me, the noticeable changes are farts, sleep and satiety, too. I didn’t want to advertise that too loudly for fear it would cloud your reality. I’m so glad everyone is coming to the same conclusions independently.

    On the farting: It doesn’t seem related to the potato starch itself, but other foods. Also, it doesn’t seem to build up over night causing pain or bloating in the morning. I think it is just indicative of a change in microflora which may attack food differently that we are used to. You know how cows sit around and fart all day–maybe so did paleo man. I have a few friends IRL who are experimenting with 1TBS/day, I’m waiting to hear if they experience increased flatulence.

    On the satiety: My biggest hurdle in eating is the period from dinner til bed time. I always feel I need a snack. I have gotten good at not giving in, but that urge always nags me. I think it has to do with insulin/leptin/timing/and a house full of snacks. I have found if I take my potato starch within 30 minutes after dinner, usually in a creamy dessert, I am not hungry in the least. I used to get this: salty craving/sweet craving/salty craving cycle that was miserable–that’s completely gone.

    On sleep: Every paleo forum is full of ‘Why do I wake at 2am now?’ questions. I have done the same for nearly 2 years. When I have an after-dinner potato starch snack, it doesn’t happen. I sleep all night.

    There have also been a few other changes I haven’t mentioned. Sorry for the tease, but waiting to see if they get mentioned or not. Maybe in the TMI range, so not holding my breath.

  165. Phil, that 108 reading is lower than the fasting BG of most VLC normal people (physiologic insulin resistance).

  166. tatertot says:

    My normal FBG for the past two years has been 110-130, for the last month or so it has been 85-95.

    On another note, if anyone is leery of raw potato starch and wants to try something different, there’s always banana flour. I have a couple pounds on the way and plan to change my RS consumption completely away from potato starch to banana flour after next week. That gives me 8 straight weeks of 4TBS/day potato starch to compare with.

    I’m planning on going with 4TBS/day of the banana flour, which should be about 20g/day of RS.

    Here is an awesome study on the digestion of green banana flour done on ileostomy patients:
    http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/75/1/104.full.pdf

    And here’s a few snippets from the study:

    ” It is known that in populations eating a Western diet, fermentation
    activity decreases at the end of the colon where colon cancer most
    often occurs. Increased intakes of fermentable carbohydrates
    could be a way of changing the fermentation activity in the colon
    with possible beneficial effects for the colonic mucosa.”

    “The RS content of RBF (raw banana flour) found in the present study (52.7%) is
    close to the in vitro value found by using the Englyst method (54.2%)”

    “RBF was prepared from green bananas from Martinique, purchased locally before gas treatment used to induce ripeness. The bananas were peeled, cut into small slices, freeze-dried, and milled (in a 3 mm sieve)… the RS content for 30 g RBF was 16.3 g RS. The test products were mixed with yogurt and eaten immediately.”

    “In the present study, we tested the maximum amount of RS2
    that could be included in the diet. However, practical use of
    green banana flour would be limited to special functional food
    products.”

    • Hi, tatertot,

      I’ve been following and reading through your threads (here, PHD, Gnolls, various other places) on RS and parsing/sorting through the information.

      It’s rather brilliant! One question you may’ve thought of – given that the potato starch is raw, would there be toxins which are present in raw potatoes present in it? The RS experiment is very clever.

      Also – I may’ve missed this somewhere, but – what are your recommendations for using potato starch in post-dinner / post-meal desserts?

      I am suspecting -and hoping – this will help two n=1’s. :) (By the way, this is a very inspiring n=1/self-experimentation/body engineering experiment. So.. thank you for that. Had you not posted your information so prolifically, I quite likely would not have found it.)

  167. Phil Parsons says:

    “Phil, that 108 reading is lower than the fasting BG of most VLC normal people”

    I basically “dial in” my FBG with long acting insulin, and as a T1D, there is no way for me to know what my “natural” FBG is supposed to be. This is a challenge for me, because I am stuck between the imperative to keep FBG in the 80s, and my understanding of the natural tendency for VLCers to “run rich”. Dr. Bernstein to the best of my knowledge never discussed this, probably because for T1Ds, diabetic complications are Bogeyman Numero Uno, to be avoided at all costs. I assume there are good evolutionary reasons for PIR, but in addition to avoiding complications, for me, there is a discernible difference in how I feel at 110 vs 85. So for now at least, I choose to “run lean,” even at the risk of blunting some of the benefits of keto with additional long-acting insulin.

  168. Phil Parsons says:

    Tatertot, It’s *me* who thanks *you* (and of course Richard for hosting and contributing to such an incredible resource). I might never have heard about RS, or the 2nd meal effect, etc. For a T1D, such knowledge might conceivably keep me out of a wheelchair in 20 or 30 years, or even out of the grave. If either of you find yourselves north of Boston, steaks are on me :-)

  169. Will be on week 3 of 4TBS spilt into two 2TBS servings of RPS starting tomorrow. I have also noticed a change in sleep as well, deep and for 6-7, sometimes 8 hours straight.

  170. Jay Jay says:

    I dropped back and tried just a teaspoon today.

    It still led to some gurgling in my guts about 3 hours later.

    4-5 hours later, I got some gas. No odor, 5-6 big poots, and it was over.

    And I skipped lunch today too, with no hunger at all.

    This stuff has potential!

  171. leo delaplante says:

    tatertots ,,in the china rs study buckwheat was shown as having 1/2 the rs as potato starch,,i have included buckwheat flour into my morning shake for the past 3 months and my last blood work has me at a cholesterol ratio of 3 and fasting blood sugar of 4.5 these are canadian metrics,,i had mettabolic syndrome previously and the doctor took me off my statins ,,he was amazed at the changes ,,i have also lost 25 lbs in 4 month and continue losing 1 pnd/week,,i am using 4 tablespoons of buckwheat flour every morning in the shake,,,paul jaminet approves of buckwheat flour as i have been following PHD for 4 months,,,…………..leo

  172. leo delaplante says:

    after checking rs in buckwheat uncooked is maybe 1/3 of potato starch,,i also eat alot of rice and cooked potatoes so maybe my intake of rs is roughly 25 to 35 grams /day…………….leo

  173. MsMcGillicuddy says:

    Neither my potato starch nor green banana flour is here yet, so I’ve just been going with green bananas for now, in my smoothies….increased volume in the toilet output (not sure of a more polite way to say that)…more bulk I guess.
    I am about totally stumped in finding anything, anywhere, that discusses what happens to green bananas in the freezer OR refrigerator. Some sites say they continue to ripen, some say that ripening halts. I can’t believe there is no definitive answer on this. It wouldn’t necessarily be a problem for me except that I live alone during the week and it’s not convenient to shop every day for green bananas.
    For what it’s worth, something about the texture of bananas make them a great addition to smoothies.
    I only have problems with GERD when I consume caffeine, milk and/or sugar together in the evening.
    With respect to Type II diabetes, I throw this out there: my boyfriend’s mother lives in Peru and she takes something that comes from the Amazon jungle that controls her BG levels…pachamarco or panchamanca or something like that…anyway, it is supposed to be very effective. PS , although subscribed, I am also not receiving follow up comments.

  174. MsMcGillicuddy says:

    @leo, that’s great news. I just tried kasha (roasted buckwheat?) for the first time ever on Friday. Not only is it delicious, but very filling as well. I had no idea it had RS.

  175. I heard from someone else on the comment notification issue that they resubscribed and began getting them.

  176. leo delaplante says:

    why does the nutritional info on this potato starch show fiber as 0%,,,isnt rs recognized as a fiber

    http://www.bulkbarn.ca/en-ca/products.html?product=1765&search=potato

    leo………….

  177. From what I can tell, RS is not really a fiber, it just has fiber like properties.

    I think we need to drop the term “fiber” completely when not talking about insoluble fiber, i.e., indigestible tigs and sawdust.

  178. MsMcGillicuddy says:

    @Woodwose: I can see how the RS would be helpful for dieting (satiety factor), but whey protein? how would be any better than say…egg protein or beef protein? for fat loss? thanks

  179. For those who are consuming potato starch regularly, I have a simple question. How are you storing it and does anyone have an idea how long it lasts? I am considering purchasing the 4 pack of Bob’s Red Mill, but would not want it to go bad before I can use it all. I read the post where Tatertot mentions he stores in on the counter in a flour container, but the package indicates to refrigerate or freeze it. Thanks for any help in this matter.

  180. Greg, I just fold over the clip closed the bag it comes in. I’ve been using PS for years as absolutely the best sauce thickener when needed (make a cold water slurry). Anyway, I’ve had it for well over a year like that with no problems. Doesn’t clump up, get moldy or in any way appear or smell off.

  181. Thanks, Richard. Do you stick it in the fridge or leave it out? I am getting my potato starch tomorrow, so I will taper up from 1 Tbsp to 4 in a few days and give some results after a week. My issues are not severe, mostly intermittent mild constipation and a little reflux now and then. Hoping to see some good results in the porcelain throne department.

    Richard, I only discovered your blog a week or so ago. Loving the recent posts and find it interesting to go back in the archives and read some of your old stuff. I find your anarchism refreshing, appreciate your stance on conformity/domination/religion issues. That appears to just be the since your food/lifestyle blogging is the real gem. Your witty irreverant take on these issues keeps me laughing and coming back for more.

  182. tatertot says:

    Yep, I stopped getting email alerts again…glad I checked back. What’s going on?

    Re: Storage – From a couple of cooking sites, they recommend “Store Potato Starch at room temperature in sealed container.” and “Store under refrigeration for up to 6 months.” So, maybe it is worth keeping in the fridge if you aren’t going through it very fast. I open 1 pound at a time and keep the unopened ones in the pantry. If you order the 5 pound pack from Bob’s, it comes in 4 1.25 pound individual bags. I go through a pound in about 10 days so I can’t imagine that it will ruin stored on the counter.

    Re: Fiber Content 0% – The nutritional info on potato starch is for cooked starch–no RS or fiber–when eaten raw, the fiber content would really be 78% (assuming RS is really fiber) and the calories count would be 2.8kcal/gram instead of 4kcal.

    Re: Buckwheat – From what I can find, Buckwheat Flour contains about 23% RS by weight. see table 1.

    I had never considered this as a source as I was specifically trying to exclude grains, but you are absolutely right! Buckwheat is an OK ‘grain’. What about Sorghum? It is 43% RS. I see Bob’s has sorghum flour at about the same price as potato starch: http://www.organicfoodchoice.com/bgl-19554.html#.UZE2vkqrS8U Is Sorghum a ‘good grain’, too? Good job Leo!

    What somebody should try is making a big mix of all these RS types, aiming for 15-30g/day range. It looks easy to do and I’m always a fan of getting things from a variety of sources.

    Re: Farts – I am on week 6 of 4TBS/day of potato starch. Yesterday I skipped breakfast (as usual), went to a Mother’s Day buffet at noon and pigged out of meat, seafood, cheese, veggies, and a small chocolate dessert. Dinner at 6 was 4TBS potato starch, 2TBS greek yogurt, 2TBS Cool-Whip, 1TBS cocoa powder, and a handful of blueberries. I don’t think I farted more than twice yesterday. Haven’t yet today, either. I had a few weeks of really amazing gas, but that seems to have passed as of last week.

    Re: Sleep – fantastic; Satiation – fantastic

    Re-subscribing now.

  183. leo delaplante says:

    i posted on PHD site this weekend to thank paul and his wife for all their great work and mentioned that i was taking buckwheat and he said that he ate it himself and that it was the only grain that he endorsed,,buckwheat is not a grass and belongs to the rhubarb family,,,,it does have anti=nutrient but can be sourced as sprouted and dehydrated and floured………buckwheat is also very nutritious………………leo

    http://www.upayanaturals.com/Buckwheat_Flour_32oz_Raw_Sprouted_Certified_O_p/fol-012.htm

  184. tatertot says:

    @leo d – I wonder if Paul ever considered using raw BW flour for targeted RS like you are doing?

    I was just thinking…if you mixed 1TBS each of potato starch (75%), banana flour (50%), and buckwheat flour (25%), you’d have a mixture that is approx 15g of RS from 3 very different plants.

  185. leo delaplante says:

    i use buckwheat flour in my morning smoothie to make me happy,,i tried atkins 3 years ago and was sent into a nightmarish episode of anxiety and panic attacks,,,i lost weight fast but gave up within a month,,seems that without carbs i was running on kettones which shot my cortisol through the roof which caused my mental dilemna,,that was the first time i ever dieted and was scared to attempt it again till pauls PHD diet,,,,since buckwheat is phd compliant i started using it,,i didnt know it had rs in it,,,i like PHD because of the inclusion of potatoes and rice,,,,tatortots i also use 3 tbs of pumpkin seeds and 2 tbs of flax seed meal,,,,i’ve been trying to find out how much rs is in flax and pumpkin seeds but cant seem to find the info…i keep on reading that flax and pumpkin seeds
    are high in rs but no percentage numbers,,,,can you try to find this out for us as that could be another source that could benefit us all,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,leo

  186. @Greg

    Thanks for the comments. Just the kind of readers I like to attract. On the PS, I just always keep it in the cabinet. Don’t suppose it would hurt to refrigerate.

    I’m finding the best results in terms of gas production to have it in advance of a meal, not after, or on a rather empty stomach, either way mixed with water or club soda. I don’t mind the taste at all.

  187. tatertot says:

    @leo – I’m having a hard time assessing the RS of seeds as well. Seeds contain RS1 refers to resistant starch that is ‘physically encased by whole grains.’ I’m not sure why it is so hard to find this data. If you have any luck, please share with us.

    I found this on whole grains and RS:

    Back when I was trying to get RS from only PHD foods, I was using green bananas, ground flaxmeal, almond meal, cold potatoes, etc… I’ll bet you are probably getting a pretty good dose with what you have been eating.

  188. tatertot says:

    Here’s something I just found with a good table of RS contents: http://www.thaiscience.info/journals/Article/Resistant%20starch%20contents%20and%20the%20in%20vitro%20starch%20digestibility%20of%20thai%20starchy%20foods.pdf

    Mung bean starch = 50%RS
    Cassava Starch = 44%
    Tapioca Pearls = 4.5%
    Most green banana flours = 52-64%

  189. Regarding email. I recently moved hosting and so the setup for email notifications changed from an outside provider to my Google Aps account (paid). However, that kept hitting the daily send limit. So I set it to use the internal PHP send which seems to be unreliable. I’ve just converted it over to the SMTP of my hosting company. It’s tests out OK so hopefully notifications can recommence.

    @tater:

    Aren’t mung bens what bean sprouts are made from? Found this:

    http://www.vitacost.com/bobs-red-mill-mung-beans-27-oz-1?csrc=GPF-PA-039978004277&ci_gpa=pla&ci_kw=&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=039978004277&gclid=CO-cl-2RlLcCFW-CQgodlEIARg

  190. tatertot says:

    That Bob! He has everything…

    I don’t have any experience with Mung Beans, except the Office episode where Creed is sprouting them in his desk drawer and laughs when someone says he ‘smells like death’.

    I just found mung bean starch on Amazon–$48 a pound! Apparently “Green Bean Starch” is the same thing. http://www.amazon.com/Mung-Bean-Starch-Flour-500g/dp/B0054VF6QI

  191. leo delaplante says:

    glutten free bread is made of tapioca,potato and rice flours,,,i wonder if most of the rs is destroyed through
    baking or if there is another way of using this dough that would not destroy the rs,,,like crakers,,tacos,,tortilla chips,,pringle style potato chips….breakfast cereal,,,that could all be
    gently de-hydrated to preserve the rs,,,a tiny bit of flavoring could potentially turn favoured north american snack foods into a healthy snack phenomina if anybody uses this idea to make millions i want all the snack food i can eat for free,,,,,,lol,,,,and 5% of all net profits……………..lol…………………leo

  192. tatertot says:

    That’s what i tell everybody, too–just send me free samples if you get rich off my ideas!

    The only RS that withstands baking is Hi-Maize corn starch, but it has to be mixed with regular flour. No thanks.

    Here’s plan for banana flour as soon as I get it:
    Remember this recipe for Toll-House Chocolate Chip Cookies?
    2 1/4 cups all-purpose flour
    1 teaspoon baking soda
    1 teaspoon salt
    1 cup (2 sticks) butter, softened
    3/4 cup granulated sugar
    3/4 cup packed brown sugar
    1 teaspoon vanilla extract
    2 large eggs
    2 cups (12-oz. pkg.) NESTLÉ® TOLL HOUSE® Semi-Sweet Chocolate Morsels
    1 cup chopped nuts

    I’m going to substitute banana flour for the regular flour; potato starch for baking soda; stevia for the granulated sugar; cut the brown sugar in half (maybe); and use 90% dark chocolate for the chips.

    Mix it all up, and eat the dough! That’s the best part anyway. You could roll these up in balls that contain 3TBS worth of banana flour for a really nice RS snack. Store in freezer or fridge.

    I’ll let you know how it turns out–anyone have any other ideas or can critique my substitutions?

  193. might be interesting to add rice krispies, probably the most innocuous of boxed cereal. Rice, very small amount of sugar and that’s about it.

  194. leo delaplante says:

    i was thinking of dehydrating the snacks so as to not destroy the rs,,,,for your cookies i would try coconut palm sugar..has a g.i. of 35,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,leo

  195. MsMcGillicuddy says:

    I am planning to dehydrate the banana slices, trying to decide if I need a special dehydrator or can do it very low oven temps….

  196. Phil Parsons says:

    Quick Day 3 update:
    – I’ve been having 2tbsp with water an hour or two before dinner, and another 2tbsp either with or after dinner.

    – My post-meal BG increases are very mild, but since I eat HFLC 99% of the time, that might not prove much, other than that potato starch has very little apparent effect on BG level.

    – Similarly, my FBG is typically <90, but as discussed further up the thread this is a less useful datum coming from a T1D. Within limits, my FBG could be almost whatever I wish it to be. But again, this demonstrates that 4tbsp of a highly refined starch can be a good fit for a BG management strategy.

    – I consistently get a brief euphoric rush about an hour after the first serving. Am I the only one so far it happens to?

    – I sleep more soundly and dream vividly. Loving that part, almost worth the price of admission alone.

    – I do get more gassy than normal, but it is not extremely offensive, and doesn't last long. So far no change in bathroom visits, but I am sometimes a 1-2x per week kind of fella, so even three days might not be enough time for big changes to manifest.

  197. tatertot says:

    @MsM – I got pretty good at making banana chips using very green plantains. Peeling is the hardest part, but here’s an easy way: Cut off the ends, cut in half cross-wise and length-wise, ‘roll’ each quarter section out of it’s peel. Now take these 4 sections and cut in half again length-wise so you have 8 pieces shaped like a tongue (not like spears). You will end up with 8 flat pieces that can be dried on a cookie sheet or in a dehydrator. I don’t like drying them in an oven because they need air circulation to dry and most ovens won’t go low enough to prevent them from getting rock hard. I like to dry mine in open air near our hot wood-stove with a fan blowing on them. You need to flip them every so often to prevent from turning black on the bottom. A dehydrator may be your best bet. If you want to salt or spice them, do it immediately after cutting–otherwise nothing will stick to them.

  198. tatertot says:

    @Phil Parsons – Here’s a study you will find interesting: http://www.nature.com/ismej/journal/v5/n2/full/ismej2010118a.html

    They took volunteers from a controlled weight- maintenance diet, put them on a low-carb diet, then introduced RS or plain fiber. The study showed that the gut flora changed rapidly with each dietary change, but only the RS diet made changes that effect butyrate production and increases in ‘good’ gut microbes.

    The study also showed it was very individualistic…if you didn’t have the good guys to start with you are kind of screwed! I asked Norm Robillard if he could comment on the study: http://digestivehealthinstitute.org/2013/05/10/resistant-starch-friend-or-foe/#comment-45034

    I think that we are living proof of what all the studies show. Simply adding RS makes fast changes to gut flora in favor of the ones that do us the most good. Now the trick will be figuring out the best RS or combination of RS’ and in what quantity to make the most of it.

    Thanks for your report!

  199. Phil Parsons says:

    @Tatertot: Interesting! One of my “food rules” is to eat only food that could grow in my back yard, and only *when* it could (of course I can’t follow that perfectly, and I make exceptions, e.g. fermented vegetables); for this reason I tend to avoid coconut oil and other similarly exotic items that you would never see growing in New England. I can’t point you to studies, but I think the preponderance of circumstantial evidence indicates that our bodies and minds are deeply tuned into our environments, and that incongruous inputs (a banana in January, artificial light) or missing ones (never walking barefoot) have consequences.

    That’s a long-winded segue into wondering whether, e.g., plantain flour might not be a great idea for a person of northern European descent living in New England.

    As an aside, maybe my reaction to the PS is mild because my gut was in reasonable shape already? I’ve always been extremely healthy (chronic autoimmune disease notwithstanding ;-) ) and haven’t ever taken any antibiotics, or even many prescription drugs.

  200. tatertot says:

    @Phil P. – I hear you about the seasonality issue. I try to do that myself.

    One thing to remember about all starchy plants, they have been used since time immemorial as storage foods. Plantains/bananas were dried and stored throughout Africa, potatoes were dried and stored throughout S. America, corn was dried and stored throughout N. America. The inuits had ‘Eskimo Potatoes’ which were dried and stored throughout the Arctic.

    Not sure what starch the Neandrathals and Northern Europeans had before potatoes and agriculture, but you can bet they had something they dried and stored for winter or hard times, and I’ll bet it had RS in it!

  201. leo delaplante says:

    what if you added potato starch to mashed potatoes after they cooled down below 130f,,,would that lower the G.I. of the mashed potatoes ……………………leo

  202. tatertot says:

    @leo – That is exactly (almost) what I have been doing this week. We have a baked potato bar at work, I usually eat a big potato for lunch. If I eat it plain, it will spike my 1hr PP to about 160. If I eat it with sour cream and/or butter, it will spike my 1hr PP to 150-160.

    I have beed mixing 1 heaping TBS in with 2TBS of sour cream and glopping that on the slightly cooled baked potato. 1hr PP is 120 or less. I only have 2 days under my belt of doing this and planned on mapping it out with 20 minute PP readings for two hours to see what’s really happening.

    But, yes, I think what you propose will work.

  203. leo delaplante says:

    Starch products
    54. Mung bean starch noodle 30 g 67.2±3.94 34.1±7.13 23.0±1.35
    55. Sweet potato starch noodle, broad, dried 30 g 96.8±0.59 41.0±4.10 39.7±2.02
    56. Sweet potato starch jelly sheet, dried 30 g 98.9±4.47 31.6±4.60 31.3±1.56
    57. Potato starch noodle, dried 30 g 98.2±5.50 27.8±1.44 27.3±1.32

    i copied and pasted from your link,,,i loved noodles(i male my own soba noodles with buckwheat real easy ,,just water and buckwheat,,,,,,,,,,,,,,the noodles above are sometimes called glass noodles and a soaking in warm water would cook them in 1/2 to an hour im sure,,then they could be added to soups and dishes once these soups and disheds cooled down below 130f ,,here is a wiki link on these noodles…………..leo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellophane_noodles

  204. Leo, thanks for the copy paste, but the numbers are gibberish.

    I guess I should start doing that on the blog posts and just say fuck it, let ‘em figure it out.

  205. leo delaplante says:
  206. tatertot says:

    @leo – I knew exactly what those gibberished numbers were because I am familiar with the table they came from. For some reason, you can’t cut and paste from a lot of studies.

    Anyway, it does look like a lot of the RS in the Chinese diet is from noodles. It’s hard to tell from the charts if the RS content is from cooked, ready-to-eat noodles or the dried noodle. But it would be cool if you could make noodles that retained RS.

    This company wants to combine green banana flour with wheat to make RS noodles: http://www.nutraingredients.com/Research/Green-banana-fibres-could-give-noodles-nutrient-boost

  207. leo delaplante says:

    these noodles would be air dried that is why they are high in rs,,like i said they would only need to be soaked in warm water to soften them and that way they would still retain all of t
    heir rs

  208. tatertot says:

    I agree–that would probably be a good tactic! How hard is it to make those kind of noodles (sweet potato starch, mung bean starch)? But I guess you could also buy them: http://www.amazon.com/Oriental-Noodle-Ingredient-Potato-Starch/dp/B007AWOBLU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1368637771&sr=8-1&keywords=sweet+potato+noodles and cook them super al-dente. Interesting!

  209. leo delaplante says:

    ive used cellophane wraps for vietnamese rolls and all you do is soak them in warm water till they are pliable,,the same would apply for glass noodles,, the soak would be longer,,,these noodles are super cheap at chinese grocery stores,,,the drawback is rhat most of these noodles are made in china

  210. leo delaplante says:

    In 2004, testing by Chinese authorities determined that some brands of cellophane noodles produced in Yantai, Shandong were contaminated with lead. It emerged that several unscrupulous companies were making their noodles from cornstarch instead of mung beans in order to save costs, and, to make the cornstarch transparent, were adding lead-based whiteners to their noodles.[2] In December 2006, Beijing authorities again inspected cellophane noodles produced by the Yantai Deshengda Longkou Vermicelli Co. Ltd. in Siduitou village, Zhangxing town, Zhaoyuan city, Yantai, this time determining that sodium formaldehyde sulfoxylate, a toxic and possibly carcinogenic industrial bleach that is an illegal food additive in China, had been used in the production of the noodles. The company, which formerly sold its noodles both in China as well as overseas, was ordered to cease production and distribution.[3][4][5][6]

    In December 2010, Czech food inspection authorities (SZPI) again inspected Chinese cellophane noodles, this time determining that 142.00 mg/kg of aluminium, which is an illegal amount for food in Czech (and EU) market, had been used in the production of the noodles.[7]

  211. tatertot says:

    Holy Crap! I’ll stick with potato starch, banana flour, and buckwheat flour.

  212. MsMcGillicuddy says:

    This thread is amazing, I learn a few things and get a laughs in the process (thanks Richard).
    There are noodles with RS, if you want to trade Chinese metallic noodles for noodles with Hi-Maize. I found some on the store shelf last evening, but did not purchase due to doubts about Hi Maize.
    Speaking of processed foods, we have a piece of unleavened bread that one of my forebearers (forebears?) carried with him while soldiering for the Union Army in the US Civil War. It survived 150+ years plus in the family attic. My brother sent it away for analysis, might be interesting.

  213. tatertot says:

    @MsM – LOL…a lady down the hall from me has an 8 year old Twinkie in it’s original package stapled to her door as a door knocker. I’ll bet it will survive longer than your stinking Yankee hardtack!

  214. MsMcGillicuddy says:

    likely! Some guy was on TV the other day showing off a 15 year old MCDonalds hamburger he found stashed in the pocket of an old coat he had not worn once in that amount of time and here I am, can’t even get my strawberries to last a day without withering up. Reminds me of Homer Simpson’s trip to Whole Foods, that episode was a hoot.

  215. @tatertot,

    Greetings! In Mike Eades blog-post about RS/butyrate he writes: This brief discourse should put you off of resistant starch even without knowing what anti-nutrients are (resistant starch is an anti-nutrient), why they’re there and what they do. We’ll save that for a later post.

    To my knowledge the good Dr. hasn’t written the later post, yet. Have you come across any info w/ respect to RS as an anti-nutrient?

    Thanks so much for being so generous with your information and time.

    Link to ME’s blog: http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/metabolism/resistant-starch/

  216. tatertot says:

    @KKC – There is absolutely nothing to back up the claim that RS is an anti-nutrient. Total hogwash.

    Richard linked to that article in the first RS post we did a couple weeks ago so you all wouldn’t think we were only showing one side.

    I think Eades and some others had a knee-jerk reaction to the S in RS. Of course, to be fair, that entire article was a critique of an ABC video that is no longer available, I’ve never seen it, I have no idea what it said–it may have been total BS about RS. Still, I think Eades should have looked into it a bit more.

  217. I think Eades may have been simply been indicting RS as a category since his named examples ie. wheat, legumes etc. do have some anti-nutrients. He was not saying that RS specifically has anti-nutrients other than those we are already aware of in some sources of RS

  218. tatertot says:

    I thought it seemed he was using ‘anti-nutrient’ wrong. Maybe ‘non-nutrient’ would be better in a sense because RS is not a nutrient in the usual sense. But even that would be a huge leap as RS is a vital nutrient for gut microflora.

  219. leo delaplante says:

    i agree tatortot

  220. I agree that Eades’ attitude toward RS in that post (I linked it again for late-comers to the party) seemed dismissive.

    By calling it an anti-nutrient I assumed he meant that it prevented absorption of specific nutrients.

    I use glucomannan daily in Greek yoghurt. Now, because of your enthusiasm, tatertot, I’ve just begun taking Bob’s potato starch 1T/day as a slurry in water w/ a wee pinch of salt at bedtime. I’m hoping for the dreams RN mentioned, if nothing else.

    Thanks again

  221. tatertot says:

    Banana Flour Update:

    I got my banana (plantain) flour a couple days ago. It has a similar look and texture to wholewheat flour. I made a batch of cookie dough like I described above, froze it, sliced it, and have it in a ziplock baggy in the freezer. They taste just exactly like cookie dough made from wheat flour.

    The last two nights, I had my regular after-dinner batch of yogurt but mixed it with the banana flour instead of potato starch, and had a piece of the cookie dough. I’m estimating this was 15-20g worth of RS.

    Both nights I ended up with indigestion, didn’t sleep so great, and FBG in the morning has been 111 and 113. With 4TBS of potato starch, FBG was never more than 96 for weeks.

    So, I think maybe the green banana flour will have it’s place, but probably just mixed in with potato starch as a small percentage for variety. I have 3 pounds of the stuff, so I will experiment a bit.

  222. @tater

    You’re 2 days late with this report. :)

    My own 3 pounds are on the way. But I’d already decided that to mix things up, I’d just do 3 T od the potato, 2 T of the plantain, in water (my preferred, now). In other news, did your protocol of the whole whammo an hour after dinner last night.

    Jesus. 8 hours in the sleep machine. One wakeup about 2 for a piss.

  223. tatertot says:

    I can tell a big difference in how the plantain flour sits in your stomach. Must be because it’s a whole food, with protein and minerals. I still really like the idea of mixing it in for variety.

    As to taking the whole daily dose right after dinner; I think that’s the ticket. I am so used to waking up and looking at the clock at 2am, now when I wake up with the alarm clock at 6am, I’m like ‘WTF?’

    Maybe the plantain flour can come into play as a raw food item at other times in the day. It seems like the pure potato starch slips right through your system and hits the large intestine at the exact right time when you take it after dinner. So many good things go on with your metabolism while you sleep, maybe this extra surge of SCFA at night is a missing link. Getting deep in bro-science now! No links to back any of this up!

  224. Phil Parsons says:

    I have been taking 2tbsp 1-2 hours before dinner, and then another 2 tbsp an hour or so afterward. There seem to be diminishing returns in terms of sleep quality and hunger. This might also be a consequence of my cursed sluggish innards; after an uncomfortable night I enjoyed a fairly epic movement this morning and am feeling much better. It was qualitatively different from the norm—I won’t get into details but suffice to say it’s a good thing the rest of the house was asleep. Since the rest of my regimen is basically unchanged, I can say it’s likely the effect of the PS. I can only hope it’s a sign of positive activity and not the onset of a serious social handicap.

    As an aside, I really wish I could go back in time and thrill my 8 year-old self with the news that as an adult I’d be discussing farts and poop with complete strangers :-P

    I am going to try things your way tonight tatertot.

  225. @Phil

    Guys will never lose their essential love of farts.

    I think there was a Steve Martin routine once where he said: “Have you ever noticed how your own farts smell kinda good?”

    Seriously, I can’t really figure it out solidly. Sometimes, more and more often…not. Highly dependent on other foods. For example, I’ve been trying out pinto beans lately…soaked for 24 hours before final cookoff. In times past, that would guarantee at most little fartage. Now? Not so much and it’s too confounded to really get a handle on anything. Beans provide glucoaligosacharides, as opposed to fructooligosacharides. But if I take my Inulin/FOS powder, basically the same thing. And, how lasting is the effect. Presume that taking that powder or eating the beans modifies gut flora at least acutely. So, te effect could last days after.

    But, at least it’s all an interesting puzzle and most of all, they’re my own farts I’m studying and not someone else’s.

    There’s your main reasons for SELF-experimentation in this area. Poor, poor detached researchers. :)

  226. Phil Parsons says:

    “Guys will never lose their essential love of farts.”

    Tatertot, I present exhibit A for the prosecution:
    http://humorinamerica.wordpress.com/2012/02/21/fart-proudly/

    Next time my wife gets on my case for being juvenile I will point out that at least one of the Founders thought it a worthy subject ;-)

  227. tatertot says:

    I think when someone finally gets wise and writes a book on this, there will be a ‘farting phase’ to go through. I have kept my dose pretty steady and can honestly say the flatulence has come back down to a normal level.

    I would love to know exactly what’s going on inside the gut biome, but if the implications of a healthy gut are as the studies all say, it must be epic!

  228. ilise says:

    Jen and others finding that their sleep is better/deeper..are you taking the potato starch at night only? I tried a few days of potato starch spread out throughout the day and didnt sleep well at all. thanks

  229. tatertot says:

    @ilise – I have been taking mine all right after dinner, like within 30 minutes, and sleep like a baby–which is unusual for me. I did a couple weeks of taking it at lunch or in the morning and it didn’t do anything for sleep.

    It seems just for the RS, it wouldn’t matter when you took it, but it seems something is happening by taking it in the evening a few hours before bed that is making us sleep better. No studies on this! Just N=1.

  230. ilise says:

    Thanks Tatertot,
    have you tried taken smaller doses after dinner and if so did any smaller doses work for sleep as well as the full 4tbs?

  231. tatertot says:

    @ilise – I have not. I intend to, I just wanted to see how I would do with 4TBS for 2 months. I’m on week 6.

    In a couple weeks, I’m going to start titrating down, or maybe just switch right to 2TBS after dinner, or even use the banana flour, not sure just yet.

    I hate changing too much at once as then it’s hard to tell what’s going on. Im keeping a pretty good record of my FBG, so kind of using that and subjectivity of sleep and a few other parameters as I make changes.

  232. MsMcGillicuddy says:

    Can we speculate at all as to what it is about the RS that is producing the sleep changes? If I missed that somewhere, please excuse and redirect, if possible. Thanks

  233. ilise says:

    Thanks Tater will experiment with dosages.

    I suspect that RS keeps glucose levels stable during the night.

  234. tatertot says:

    @MsM – No idea. I suspect it is as Ilise says, a glucose stability issue. There is nothing to be turned up on the internet with a search for RS and Sleep. This was a complete surprise to me.

    Last Winter, I was posting back and forth on the Perfect Health Diet website about poor sleep and high FBG, I couldn’t put my finger on it back then, but there were nights when I would sleep really good and have low FBG, but most nights I would wake at 2am and have high FBG. I think the nights I slept good, I must have gotten a lot of RS from real food at dinner (this was before the potato starch).

    So, I think there is a direct connection between RS after dinner, better sleep, and lower FBG. Probably from a controlled release of glucose at night or the SCFA production from gut microbes, who knows?

  235. Woodwose says:

    Something that really struck me was this sunday after a night out my hangover was completely tolerable. This is something I havent experienced in at least 15 years, since even 3 glases of wine will leave me shaking and sweating the day after and will leave me severely weak with gut problems and IBS for several days. It seems RS has strengthened my gut and liver.

    @MsMcGillicuddy I see no reason as to why other proteins wouldnt work just as well. But whey protein is cheap and easily mixed with RPS(however whey may not exactly be very paleo).

  236. tatertot says:

    Here’s another tidbit. I have done a few experiments at lunch with potato starch this week.

    Monday and Wednesday, my lunch was exactly the same: 1 baked potato, no skin; 1 can of sardines packed in water; 2TBS of sour cream. I checked my BG before and 1 hour after. Mon – 79 before, 135 after. Wed – 97 before, 142 after.

    Tuesday and Thursday (today), my lunch was exactly the same, but I mixed 1 TBS of potato starch in with the sour cream: Tue – 96 before, 96 after. Today – 94 before, 97 after.

    If anybody else has a BG monitor, I’d love to see some others play with this.

    Taking a sample at only the 1 hour point maybe misses some important readings, but I think the readings speak volumes for what is going on. There is a definite change in the way the cooked starch from the potato is being absorbed. Maybe at the end of the day it doesn’t make a hoot, but I think it’s pretty cool.

  237. Two things:

    1) would it be more appropriate to look at RS as not so much a carb as it is fat? If it’s being converted to SCFA/butyrate via fermentation and then used as energy by the body, well, seems you’re really talk about fat, ultimately. Makes sense to me — anyone else seeing it this way?

    2) Got a new way to “eat” the potato starch that plays into a vice of mine.

    Little background first. I just got my potato starch. On my non-workout days, I tend to fast until around 2-3pm and have been having small “meals” of 2-3 boiled eggs, a couple TBSP of raw almond butter, and some celery while at work and then having a normal sized, fattier dinner (and low carbs). Today, being a rest day, I figured I’d try something a little different for my afternoon mini-meal. I put 4 TBSP of potato starch in a cup and 2 TBSP of raw almond butter … mixed it up (took like 5 minutes with a spoon to “dissolve” the starch completely into the almond butter. Then I ate it up!

    The starch made the almond butter just a bit drier than normal; however, almond butter is often not dry enough for my taste, so this was a win. The taste was pretty much exactly the same as regular raw almond butter but obviously the net volume was 3X higher than straight almond butter alone, so a lot more satisfying (while calorically only a little less than 2X the calories of a single serving of almond butter).

    And if the starch is basically just a fat and had little to no effect on insulin, you could argue the whole concoction was pretty low carb friendly.

    Sidenote: the actual energy from digesting almonds is something like 80% what the bomb calorimeter puts out. So (1 serving of almond butter @ 180 calories)*80% = 144 calories and (4 tbsp of potato starch @ 40 calories)*70%(?) = 112 calories … 256 calories for a pretty satiating snack that feels a little gluttonous.

    And yea, it’s a little nutty to take it to the above math level, but I’m a nerd like that. Now I get to find out how this all digests …

    Thoughts?

    One more thing: I noticed awhile back that when I made a point to have a single baked potato and a banana as part of my post workout nutrition I saw an overall improvement in my poop consistency (oh the things we talk about on the internet!). I started all that not only to avoid consuming as much grain as a PWO carb source (even though it doesn’t seem to bother me to eat grains), but also because I’d had two bouts with stomach viruses and read that potatoes and bananas were good at rebuilding gut bacteria … I don’t recall any mention of resistant starch when I read up on that, but now it makes a lot more sense …

    Thanks for sharing all this tatortot (and Richard!). Fascinating … here’s to healthier guts!

  238. tatertot says:

    @Justin – you are spot-on with your observation about RS being more fat than carb. And the almond butter idea sounds really good. I have found it’s easier and less messy to mix the starch with a bit of water before trying to mix it with anything else–it won’t ‘poof’ all over that way.

    Also, for everyone else: Excellent article in yesterday’s NYT: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/05/19/magazine/say-hello-to-the-100-trillion-bacteria-that-make-up-your-microbiome.html

    Apparently there is a human gut project going on to catalog people’s gut flora, I will look into it, but way down in the very long article is this:

    “His comment chimed with something a gastroenterologist at the University of Pittsburgh told me. “The big problem with the Western diet,” Stephen O’Keefe said, “is that it doesn’t feed the gut, only the upper G I. All the food has been processed to be readily absorbed, leaving nothing for the lower G I. But it turns out that one of the keys to health is fermentation in the large intestine.” And the key to feeding the fermentation in the large intestine is giving it lots of plants with their various types of fiber, including resistant starch (found in bananas, oats, beans); soluble fiber (in onions and other root vegetables, nuts); and insoluble fiber (in whole grains, especially bran, and avocados).”

  239. tatertot says:

    http://humanfoodproject.com/americangut/

    This is the coolest thing ever. $99 and they will give you a print-out of all your gut microbes. I wish i would have done it before my RS experiment started, but I may just have to do this.

  240. leo delaplante says:

    ”’would it be more appropriate to look at RS as not so much a carb as it is fat? If it’s being converted to SCFA/butyrate via fermentation and then used as energy by the body””’
    ,,,i read that alot of b12 is produced from rs in the lower gut from fermentation,,but that the b12 is not absorbed,,could it be possible that since the butyrate is absorbed in the the lower gut that maybe the b12 is going along for the ride as a trojan and thats the reason why for all those testimonials of better sleep are been reported,,,b12 might be the reason people are experiencing better sleep,,,just a unsubstantiated thought…………………………………leo

  241. tatertot says:

    @leo d – good thinking! I did a quick google of it and couldn’t find a connection to B12, but that doesn’t mean it’s not there.

    I did turn up this study I had never seen before: http://jn.nutrition.org/content/141/5/883.full

    It’s a comparison of SCFA/butyrate levels from a high fiber, low fiber , and high RS diet. Usually the first reaction from people opposed to RS is, “It’s no different that all the other fiber!” This study shows differently.

    “Duncan et al. showed that both fecal ammonia and butyrate were lower in individuals consuming an Atkins-type, low-carbohydrate diet, where fiber intake would be limited. …

    The present study confirms that [fiber] consumption promotes indices of large bowel health but may not provide optimal protection against large bowel noninfectious disease. Greater improvement in the biomarkers studied was obtained with the [fiber] plus RS diet. These data provide an opportunity to improve public health through the consumption of foods containing both [fiber] and RS additives. The data also show that most individuals can increase fecal butyrate levels by greater consumption of such foods. We have also indicated that analysis of habitual diets demonstrates that a range of dietary components significantly influence fecal SCFA levels. Such information will also assist the development of dietary strategies to optimize bowel health. “

  242. tatertot says:

    You just find this stuff everywhere you look!

    http://www.researchgate.net/publication/223645372_Resistant_starch_and_the_butyrate_revolution

    “…beneficial effects may be obtained in particular by the consumption of resistant starch (RS) because of the high yield of butyrate and propionate when fermented. These SCFA are the prime substrates for the energy metabolism in the colonocyte and they act as growth factors to the healthy epithelium. In normal cells butyrate has been shown to induce proliferation at the crypt base, enhancing a healthy tissue turnover and maintenance. In inflamed mucosa butyrate stimulates the regeneration of the diseased lining of the gut. In neoplastic cells butyrate inhibits proliferation at the crypt surface, the site of potential tumour development. Moreover, models of experimental carcinogenesis in animals have shown the potential to modify a number of metabolic actions and steps in the cell cycle in a way that early events in the cascade of cancer development may be counteracted while stages of progression may be slowed down. The present review highlights a number of these aspects and describes the metabolic and functional properties of RS and butyrate.”

  243. leo delaplante says:

    b12 production in the colon

    http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/int

  244. tatertot says:

    Good one, leo! And kind of funny considering the recent vegan-rant blog…

    From leo’s link: “It has long been assumed that B12 is produced by bacteria in the large intestine (aka the colon), but since B12 is produced below the ileum (where B12 is absorbed), it is not available for absorption. This theory is reinforced by the fact that many species of totally or primarily vegetarian animals eat their feces. Eating feces allows them to obtain B12 on their diets of plant foods.”

  245. ilise says:

    I personally cant sleep after taking supplemental B12.
    Ive found the following connection between sleep and food
    fasting throughout the day-sleep great-best sleep of all.
    low carb-wake up early around 2-4am
    high carb (bad /fast carbs) -wake up around 2-4am
    snack before bed -sleep great. (snake must include high fat food)

    this tells my blood sugar is involved in my ability to stay asleep. I sleep best when fasting.
    I have also noticed that drinking enough water with a bit of salt throughout the day helps sleep a lot.

  246. tatertot says:

    @ilise – I’ve never taken B12, so can’t say. I’m inclined to believe what you are saying about blood sugar being involved in sleep. The body wants to keep your blood sugar in a fairly tight band, if you are sleeping and your blood sugar goes out of range, something happens in the regulation process that wakes you up. A surge of a hormone meant to release glucose from the liver must be waking us up.

    I’ve also heard that the body has a hard time regulating glucose that comes from within, which is why we end up with high FBG the next morning.

    Taking a timed-release carb (RS) must reset this whole system and keeps the glucose regulating mechanism happy until morning.

    Sleep disturbance is a very common problem on paleo diets. It would be great if a scoop of potato starch could fix it.

  247. ilise says:

    or possibly a liver glucose storage problem. I have issues with even short amount of exercise causing low blood sugar. Sometime if I have low blood sugar during the night my morning fasting bg will be higher than normal, I believe this is different than the dawn effect you might be seeing.

  248. leo delaplante says:

    ive always slept like a baby,,im so lucky,,except the time 3 years ago when i was on the atkins diet,,i had no glucose left in my blood(keto sticks were a dark purple)then all hell broke lose,,,i had panick attacks and heavy anxiety,,heart palpitations that sent me for a stress test ,a nuclear stress test and an agiogram,,,i lived in stress hell for 2 months until it went away,,the re-introduction of a lot of carbs made me sane again,,,that was the first time i ever dieted in my life..im 57,,last january after 3 more years on the sad diet i started PHD because of the inclusion of rice and potatos and my health has flourished,,from being mettabolic to today,,normal bp,fbg and hdl and ldl levels,,also lost 26 lbs,,my doctor was stunned at the changes,,,carbs are my happy food and i start my day with a 500 cal smoothie with banana,yougurt,buckwheat,berries or kale,,flax seeds .pumpkin seerd,pumplin protein powder,,amla(indian gooseberry powder),cinnamon,,i call it my make me feel happy smoothie,,,never VLC again for me…………….leo

  249. I have been following this thread and your website in general for some time now. I also follow other websites similar to yours but never posted before until now. I figured if I’m going to spend so much time reading websites that I’m interested in I might as well start posting on them also.

    Anyway I wanted to throw in my 2 cents about what my experience has been with RS. I found this so interesting and really want it to be something that heals my gut because I seem to have a very sensitive stomach for sure. I noticed my stomach really improve when I ditched the grains and went “paleo” or “primal”…..whatever you want to call it, but things still aren’t perfect. I also have some sleep problems with waking up at night. I seem to always want to wake up and eat which is strange I guess. In this thread I noticed people were saying that RS will help heal the gut, sleep better, and help control blood glucose levels; which had me very interested in trying it out.

    So I have only been taking it for a week….about 2 tbls of bob’s potato starch at night after dinner like most are doing here. I don’t have a blood glucose monitor yet so haven’t been able to test my glucose levels at home so far. One thing I noticed that another poster mentioned is a rush or sense of euphoria right after taking it. I thought it was just me, but after reading his comment from above I wanted to mention I had the same thing happen to me. That bad part is I am having some serious fartage going on and upset stomach issues. This pretty much goes on all day and night on and off which is really uncomfortable and frustrating. Like I said it’s only been a week but I feel like this won’t end……maybe it will get better? Any ideas on why some people can seem to be ok with it while others have some serious discomfort? Is this just a phase or can some people just not eat RS? If so then are they just S.O.L. on the benefits of it? Any help or input would be great from anyone……Thanks

  250. @tatertot & leo

    Regarding the B12 comments. From a few years back

    http://freetheanimal.com/2010/11/go-vegan-the-new-vegan-diet-raw-and-all-natural-b12-solution.html

  251. Phil Parsons says:

    I’m fascinated by the euphoric “rush.” Maybe it’s just a by-product of other metabolic/hormonal activity related to altering your gut flora. But I can’t help putting on my tin-foil hat and wondering if this is positive reinforcement from resurgent populations interested in keeping the food supply coming. It’s increasingly clear our symbiotic relationship with these little buggers goes very deep.

    After a week, most of the overt phenomena I experienced have diminished; the euphoria is less dramatic, I seem to be returning to previous sleep patterns, hunger is if anything *greater* now than it was before, especially in the morning, there haven’t been any changes in elimination frequency, etc. What has remained is the flatulence; unlike what Richard reported, mine are brief, absolutely deadly, and *hot* like there’s combustion going on in there. But on a positive note, so has the rock-solid BG control. My morning BG has been within 2-3 points of my bedtime BG pretty consistently, which is pretty amazing. I can’t say that last item is directly attributable to RS since there are potential confounders, but it is worth mentioning as circumstantial evidence. At the very least RS clearly doesn’t *harm* BG management.

    I’m going to give it more time. RS (in the form of potato starch) is cheap and easy to consume, and I’m satisfied that it isn’t doing any harm, and might well be doing some good. It might be that my gut is really out of whack, or being T1D makes it harder for benign populations to get a foothold (why not, T1D makes every other damn thing harder!).

  252. ilise says:

    leo..what is PHD?

    took teaspoon before bed last night. No change in sleep-maybe worse-but fasting BG about 5 points lower.

  253. tatertot says:

    @Ragnar (Go, Vikings!) – I would suggest you visit http://digestivehealthinstitute.org/2013/05/resistant-starch-friend-or-foe/ and read up on SIBO. I think there is a dark-side to all the glory that is RS, and that is that some people have bacterial overgrowth in their small intestines and RS is like throwing gas on a fire!

    It makes perfect sense. You mentioned a long history of ‘stomach problems’, have you had problems eating fiberous foods like broccoli, onions, etc..? This may need to be a big, highlighted intro in any mention of RS.

    On the plus side, maybe it’s highlighted a problem you should take action to clear up.

    I almost kept my mouth shut about RS just because I was afraid people would start having problems like you describe…my background is an ‘iron stomach’–never had stomach problems.

    Anyway, Ragnar, sorry for your troubles, but your post may help others. It certainly validates what Dr. Robillard said about SIBO or other gut dysbiosis being a ‘washout factor’ in the great RS experiment.

  254. tatertot says:

    @Phil – Thanks for posting your N=1 experience! The bad aspects are probably more important than the good at this point.

    You are definitely breaking new ground as a T1D here! I hope it works out for you. As to the safety aspect, look at it this way– 2TBS of PS a day is about 15g of RS, the US average is about 3-8g/day, so it’s not like you are eating a crazy amount. The worldwide average is around 15g with some African populations eating 30g/day. The incidence of colon cancer is almost nil in the higher end consumption populations.

  255. tatertot says:

    @ilise – A teaspoon is like 4g of RS, about the same as eating a big bowl of potato salad. Your observations with sleep and BG are bothe very interesting. You should try 1tsp again, but right after dinner instead of right before bed.

    I can’t figure out what is going on with the euphoria and insomia effects when taken right before bed. The BG makes sense, but not the sleep.

  256. @ilise PHD is Perfect Health Diet by Paul Jaminet and Shou-Ching Shih Jaminet. It is a paleo diet that has become very popular in the last couple years.

  257. Phil Parsons says:

    @tatertot I am sure that a week isn’t long enough to conclude anything about RS, not to mention I haven’t played around much with dosage, timing, etc.

    If this was any kind of controlled experiment you wouldn’t want me involved—there are too many confounders. I have been eating HFLC for about five weeks and in that time have dropped about 25lbs (still have about 40 to go), lowered my FBG more than 100pts and my A1C from 7.1 to 6.1. As you might expect, certain aspects of my blood chemistry, particularly lipid profile and thyroid, are slightly chaotic as well. In other words, things are in flux, and so when something changes it’s not obvious why.

    So I have no trouble staying the course and tweaking some variables to see what happens. I for one am very glad you decided not to keep this to yourself. I don’t have any worries about safety, like you I have a very tolerant stomach and have never had any issues with any kind of food, and RS has already proven to be a non-issue re:BG. But I am also doing this as a guinea pig, and following the experiences of the others in this thread, for my wife—who *does* have issues, and I’m pretty sure also has a devastated gut biome from multiple regimens of high-power antibiotics following emergency surgery last year.

  258. MsMcGillicuddy says:

    I am now adding the RS to smoothies, but looking for other ways to incorporate it into every day recipes…you know, to just make it part of the diet and not as a separate supplement. What about sauces? in place of cornstarch?
    I can add my voice to the chorus singing praises of increased mood…wow wonderful. I never listen to 70s disco and yet here I am working out to disco today (rock and roll fan here) so you know something is up.
    My boyfriend was raised in South America. His family and friends have always thrived on a diet heavy on a rice, potatoes (more varieties than you can imagine) plantains…ceviche (fish cooked with acid) and chicken…I wondered how they stayed slim with all these carbs, but now I am beginning to see things differently.

  259. MsMcGillicuddy says:

    I would like to mention Paul Jaminet’s books and website as well…lots of science laid out in ways the nonscientist can grasp and many recommendations. Very helpful and light on politics and rants…good for the soul. Peace!

  260. Shelby says:

    @plantain users – I’ve been making the plantains in the oven and peeling and slicing slightly differently so I thought I would share and get feedback, if any.

    I score a very green plantain lightly down the middle of one of it’s sides (not down the seam, if that makes sense), just cutting through to the meat, and cut a small triangular notch from the score to one end and remove that. I am then able wedge a finger under the skin and roll the whole plantain out of the skin. I then slice the plantain into rounds using a planer (usually one on cheese graters)–I like the krinkle cut style as they seem to dry better–and put them on a foil lined baking sheet sprinkled with a little sea salt. I then turn my oven on to it’s lowest setting which is 170 (warm) but prop the oven open and let it cool to 130 (I have an internal thermometer). I have been sticking them in and leaving overnight which makes them crunchy but not too hard to eat. They are very slightly sweet and taste remarkably like saltines. I usually eat about a half plantain per day.

    Question: I know it’s somewhere buried in the comments here (can’t find it) but how much RS is in a normal plantain (about 9-10 inches long and about 2 inches in diameter)? I am seeing anywhere from 20 to 60 g on the web.

    Thoughts on prep method?

  261. tatertot says:

    @MsM – A couple different ways I have come up with is to mix PS in with sour cream to put on potatoes, or yogurt used as topping or eaten straight. Mixed with any drink. Mixed with mayo used in anything, like potato salad or ham salad sandwiches.

    @Shelby – The way to figure out the RS pretty accurately is to weigh the dried plantains and divide by 2. Dry plantains are about 50% RS by weight. They need to be really green, though. A normal sized plantain should give you about 50g of RS, I believe, but weighing is the only way to know for sure.

    Your way of preparing them looks very good for preserving the RS. Peeling is the hardest part! I have always thought they tasted like saltines, too. In fact, I use them to spread almond butter or liverwurst on sometimes. When I make a batch, I sprinkle some with cayenne, some with cinnamon, and some with salt. The cinnamon ones taste like graham crackers.

  262. Shelby says:

    @all – nm on the q re: RS in dried plantains. Found it (finally). Helps to spell “plaintain” correctly…

  263. leo delaplante says:

    ovens cant be set to go below 170f,,mine anyways,,,i was drying out walnuts and the temp had to be kept below 120f or you bugger up the nutrient and i came up with a solution,,,take the oven lightbulb out and replace it with a 150 watt or higher if needed and presto you have a drying oven with the temp below 170f,,

  264. Shelby says:

    @tatertot – thanks so much for your reply. I may curse you later for the cinnamon and cayenne suggestions. Those little suckers are just so darn tasty as is! I’m going to weigh what I baked last night which was 3 normal sized plantains and see how much RS I’ve got (minus a few chips that I brought for lunch today). Try the peeling method above. I found it relatively easy once I got the hang of it. This method is similar…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnmtogaYxF8

  265. Shelby says:

    @leo – they can if you prop them open… :)

  266. tatertot says:

    @shelby – What did you find on RS in plantains? Just curious.

    Thanks for the vid.

  267. ilise says:

    Ragnar..I dont think you should give up just yet. I have sensitive stomach and have had really bad gas with some probiotics /prebiotics and have found that the more gas in the beginning the better the result for the gut. Unfortunately my good results with prebiotics/probiotics have been short lived but none the less have discovered gas is good. In the past I would always quit anything that caused high gas but have come across quite a few references and personal experiences that say gas is good and represents a change in bacteria- if you have gut problems change could be good.

    Tatertot–I should have been more clear I did take the teaspoon directly after dinner-7pm and went to bed at 10pm. I can say that IBS-D clears up immediately on just one teaspoon. Works too well in fact now constipated.

    Greg -thanks for the clarification on the PHD diet. Anyone else recommend this diet for weight loss? I tried it for three days using white rice as my primary carb and it messed with my hypoglycemia too much to continue. Will try again using red potatoes next.

  268. Shelby says:

    @ tatertot – trying to find sources again. Random web searches yielded widely varying amounts and nothing as interesting and specific as what I remembered here (which is why I was trying to get your number). Wikipedia, ask.com, places like that mostly. If I run across where I saw the numbers, I’ll link back.

    As an aside, I’m using it mostly as a weight control/carb sensitivity tool with the potato hack. I am considering adding it in the form of potato starch into smoothies and/or shakes while on vacation next week but otherwise eating “normally” (a la PHD/paleo’ish). Possibly adding it to commercial kefir and maybe coconut milk. Yum. I’ll be interested to see what kinds of impacts that might have on satiety, weight, hunger management, etc.

  269. tatertot says:
  270. leo delaplante says:

    @ilise phd is probably the most common sense way of eating out there..after reading the book your nutritional knowledge will vastly increase,,,paul and his wife researched nutrition for 5 years in an unbiased view… only after they did the work did they sit back and ask thenselves “what do we have here” i have been on it and they have one small chapter on weght loss as the book is not really a diet book as per say and it suggest to cut back on fats and to never go below 1300 claories/day…..i have lost 25 lbs since january,,,10 lbs real fast and now losing 1 pnd/week………….my calories were cut by 20%……………….leo

  271. @leo, or get a Bosch oven like I have. Has a dehydrate function, which explicitly calls for propping open the door. But some ovens have a safety that they will turn off if you do that. So you can set it to the perfect drying tempt of 105, prop the door, and it keeps the convection fan going the whole time.

    Now Im reminded to make some real beef jerky again (you can’t buy real jerky anymore, because it has to be cooked, not dried).

  272. When it comes to this kind of stuff, I’m a skeptic. I take few supplements, & only those in which I’m able to observe tangible benefits… K2, D3, Mg, CLO, B12, B6, Folate. So I decided to dive into the great RS/PS experiment… One week down & I’m sleeping better (no longer waking up at 2:00-3:00am) & have noticed pronounced digestive changes… increased gas, but that has now subsided. I’m taking approx. 20 grams in the morning in my coconut oil smoothie. I may up it a bit, to see if anything changes. I don’t have a BG meter, so I can’t comment on that.

    I believe there is something to this, & it could be very profound. My only questions concern the long-term & whether or not PS could end up being the only (main) source of RS. I’m hoping the LC skeptics are paying attention. I’m LC, myself, but I’m certainly not dogmatic about it. I simply go with what works for me. Bravo on a great N=1 experiment! Hope this thread lasts a long time, as I’m very interested in how it’s working for everybody else.

  273. ilise says:

    thanks Leo will look into purchasing the book. Just cant get past the fact that they recommend white rice over whole grain- doesnt make nutritional sense to me at all. I feel worse eating white rice than pure white sugar. And I wasnt including but a 1/4cup per day. May I inquire what a typical day of your diet looks like?

    Ron- are you taking PS only in the AM?

  274. ilise says:

    Phil -what does your HFLC diet look like? thanks

  275. Bryan says:

    Has anyone else noticed a change in urine color while taking PS? (i do 4 tbls a day in 2 doses) It reminds me of the color of urine when taking a b-complex supplement. I haven’t taken any b-complex in about a yr or more.
    Maybe it is just a sign that the PS is allowing my body to better absorb b-vitamins from my food and the excess is simply excreted in the urine causing the florescent type color??

    It mixes pretty well in my Mike’s Hard Lemonade.

  276. ilise says:

    Ive had the change in urine color when taking prebiotics. I believe your right either b vits are absorbed more efficiently or the fiber is feeding bacteria which make a lot of the b-vits. (riboflavin is the yellow b-vitamin)

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21933312

  277. tatertot says:

    @Ron – You sound like me. I am normally ‘King Skeptic’ and if I had heard about this Potato Starch stuff from someone else, I would have been dubious at best. I just kind of happened into. First, RS was explained as the success behind the potato hack, then I read a whole bunch on RS, found you couldn’t get clinical doses from real food the way we consume it, stumbled across the fact that raw potato starch is 78% RS by weight–more than any other starch, natural or manmade. I tried it–didn’t kill me–then decided to tell a few people.

    I wonder, too, about just using PS. I bought some banana flour (54%RS) and plan on doing a mix in a few weeks. Seems it would be best to get RS from multiple sources.

    I want you to look very closely at this chart: http://www.nature.com/ismej/journal/v5/n2/fig_tab/ismej2010118f4.html#figure-title

    It’s kind of self-explanatory, but obese men were fed diets consisting of SAD, RS, High Fiber, and Low Carb. They then tracked microbe populations of the most common beneficial gut microbes. Notice how the activity goes berserk in the periods on the RS diet and quickly returns to normal when switching to another diet.

    The headings on the chart are M (Maintenance diet), NSP (Fiber Diet, RS, and WL (Low Carb Diet)

    You can follow links back to the study and read more, but I think this is an a amazing chart.

  278. tatertot says:

    @ilise – I read the PHD in January and adopted a few changes based on the science. I went from LC Paleo to LC Paleo with a couple servings of starch a day, meaning all I did was add potatoes, rice, plantains, and squash back into my diet. I try to have a serving at each meal of a starch now.

    Making only this one change, I gained about 4 pounds over 2 months, then titrated back the amount of fat I was adding to meals (butter, CO, cheese, nuts mostly) and the weight came off nicely.

    PHD is really just a book giving the science behind why a diet containing good protein, fat, and starch is best and recommends some supplemental foods like eggs, fermented veggies, and now…drumroll please…..potato starch! http://perfecthealthdiet.com/recommended-supplements/ Look at the very last entry under “Nutritious Foods”

  279. tatertot says:

    @Bryan – Yes, I have noticed that, too. I didn’t mention it because I wanted to see if anyone else would notice it on their own.

    I used to notice this same thing after about 2 days on the Potato Hack diet, urine would change to a bronze color, as best I can describe it, from it’s usual clear or yellow. Now I’m seeing that color consistently. Strange. I have no idea what it means, I like the idea of B vitamins or another change in vitamin absorption.

    When I used to take a B vitamin, I would see bright yellow pee, but I thought that was from added coloring they put in. But I see here it’s from Riboflavin: http://www.livestrong.com/article/536130-can-taking-vitamin-b-turn-your-pee-bright-yellow/

    Here’s an interesting look at color: http://www.urinecolors.com/Light_yellow_urine_color.php It mentions in several places food choices can change urine color.

  280. @tater – Yes, amazing chart. Thanks for posting. My gut tells me that multiple sources will be better, but I’m going to stick to PS-only for a few months. Other folks will be experimenting with multiple sources, so it’ll be fun to see how things shake out. I’ve never had any kind of gut issues, either prior to being grain-free or since, so I tend to not be too concerned about SIBO eventually rearing its ugly head.

  281. tatertot says:

    @Ron – I decided to put my money where my mouth is…sort of…

    I sent off for a fecal swap kit from http://americangut.org/ For $99 they will give you a complete breakdown of your gut flora and compare it to worldwide population studies. I donated $180 for 2 kits, one for me one for my wife. Wife has trouble with GERD, IBS and has taken tons of antibiotics over the last couple years–no potato starch or RS. I, on the other hand have been on high RS diet for almost 6 months, with last 2 using potato starch. Supposedly people living together share very common gut flora. It will be very interesting seeing ours compared. You should have seen the look on her face when I told her this plan–lol

    They said it takes 30 days to get your kit, not sure how long to get results. I will share when I get them!

  282. tatertot says:

    That was supposed to say fecal SWAB kit–not SWAP…oh, boy!

  283. @tater – Sounds great! For a second there, I thought you might be alluding to a DIY home fecal transplant kit!

  284. Phil Parsons says:

    @ilise – I try to maintain about 75-80% fat, 10-15% protein, and the rest from incidental carbs. I eat any sort of animal, fish or fowl, nose-to-tail, according to whim, so long as it’s reasonably local. I eat a lot of bone marrow, especially in my stocks and stews, and pemmican. I try to get at least one serving of liver and/or other organs each week. I eat mostly green, non-starchy vegetables occasionally, but only local and in season (the exception being fermented vegetables, which I eat year-round). I rarely eat fruit, and only whole (no juice). It goes without saying I don’t eat any SAD “food.” Those are guidelines, I’m not completely orthodox about it. I have coffee, and tea, and if eat an apple, I don’t lose sleep over it. The idea is to be strict enough to give yourself some headroom, but not so much you set yourself up to fail.

    @Bryan – I’ve noticed the neon urine too. It’s very festive :-)

    @tatertot – My first reaction to your report of bronze-colored urine was “blood.” Maybe you should have a urinalysis done. And that urine colors site is absolutely brilliant!

  285. tatertot says:

    @Phil – definitely not a red tinge. Looking at those charts, it more a light yellow, maybe bronze was a bad descriptor. I never thought ‘neon’, though, but maybe. You should see what happens when I run a beet through my Jack Lalanne juicer and drink that!

  286. Danae says:

    @tater – Thank you so much for posting your research and experiments! I got excited about RS about 6 mo ago and bought a 5 lb bag of Hi-Maize — but then I got distracted and didn’t try it out in a serious way, so it’s still sitting on my shelf. I now have an American gut kit waiting for a sample, so I’m going to put off the RS experiment a little longer until that is completed. But I’m motivated to give it a try, and the potato starch sounds better than the corn.

    I was particularly interested that you’re seeing blood sugar improvement, as that is my interest too. I’m pre-diabetic, and I can keep my blood sugar under decent control with lifestyle measures (body weight at low-normal level, plenty of exercise, low-carb paleo-ish diet). But the older I get (I’m 60), the harder the control gets, and I’m running out of improvements to my diet and exercise routine. I really need a “tweak” that comes at it from a different angle. (My doctor has said that the next step is metformin, and I am trying to delay that because of the associated GI issues.)

    That’s what led me to start looking at incretins, and the possibility that RS might improve incretin function. Maybe that is the type of “tweak” that I’m looking for! I haven’t yet done a lot of reading about incretins, so I have a very limited understanding. But I was fascinated to read about how gastric bypass surgery seems to result in improved blood sugar control in many diabetics; and a significant part of that effect shows up BEFORE weight loss starts and seems to be related to an improvement in incretin function. Some patients apparently even end up have hypoglycemic problems! I’m NOT attracted to the thought of rearranging my digestive tract, but I’m very hopeful that there might be some other ways to alter GI function in a way that would improve blood sugar. Keep posting your info!

  287. tatertot says:

    This is the perception of RS in the general public, from Mark’s Daily Apple Forum:

    http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread85307-2.html

    Some quotes:
    – Not only that but you can get all the butyrate you will ever need from eating some butter.

    – Back on the Butyrate though, it may well be a location thing and I don’t really know whether it is important, but just for the benefit of doubt I like to keep a moderate fibre intake to feed the butyrate bacteria.

    – I don’t agree with this statement, it is not the absence of fibre or RS that produces an unhealthy profile, but more likely the presence of processed foods, low ph in stomach acid and poor dietary behaviour in general which promote an unhealthy microbiota mix.
    Lower levels of fibre & RS will simply lead to lower microbiota levels in general, not an overgrowth of unhealthy strains, if the rest of the diet is healthy whole foods, I think we should be carefull not to get fixated on a singular panacea of good health, but rather look more towards the elimination of factors leading to bad health. Butyrate and SFA’s are surely a valuable contribution to dietary health in the presence of a high fibre diet, but there is no evidence to suggest that they are essential and that high fibre intake is essential to good health, there are far too many exceptions to this concept.
    We do know our GI tracts were designed to maximise yield from a variety of dietary mixes, as evidenced by cultural dietary variation around the globe and through history, there is high fibre and low fibre intakes, the only clear markers indicating ill dietary health are highly processed foods and modern “Frankenfoods”. The search for the “Holy Grail” of good diet health is a Red Herring, the goal is merely to lift yourself out of the swamp of SAD offerings in our modern world, and then allow your body and microbiota to do what it evolved to do.

  288. Bucket says:

    @ilise & @tatertot – I’ve been following all this since Richard first posted the article. Early on, there was a mention of RS suppressing one’s appetite. This interested me… So I purchased 5 lbs. of Bob’s Red Mill Potato Starch to test if this was true. I am only on my third day of testing but it seems to work for me. I drink 2 Tbs of RS mixed in a 1/2 cup of almond milk at 9:00 am and 2 Tbs. of RS in 1/2 cup of almond milk at 3:00 pm. I eat a full Paleo/Primal dinner. And do not consume anything solid until I eat dinner the following day. I really don’t get hungry until dinner time. Nothing I can’t handle. I’m the guy that is ALWAYS hungry. I feel great! And only have a small amount of gas and a few stomach gurgles.

    @tatertot, I too want to thank you for taking the time here to inform us about RS.

  289. tatertot says:

    @Danae – I wish I would have done an American Gut test before I started all this, but oh, well. No one has said what a healthy gut really is, I don’t think anyone knows, it just would have been cool to see the change in gut flora with a change in RS intake.

    As to BG control, I think this is key: http://images.abbottnutrition.com/ANHI/MEDIA/Second%20Meal%20Effect%20Review%20and%20Citation%20Table.pdf
    But also I have been playing around a bit with adding PS to a meal and watching the BG spike be almost nothing, and returning to baseline in less than an hour, where it would normally take 2-3 hours. That’s with just 1TBS added to a meal. I’d love to see others try it.

    Also, taking 4TBS right after dinner will result in lowest FBG. I can keep FBG in 80-95 range very easily. When I stop for a day or two, it’s up to 100-110, but before I started the PS experiment I was consistently in the 115-130 range.

    I don’t know anything about incretin, so I typed “incretin resistant starch” into Bing, and found this right away: http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/content/meeting_abstract/24/1_MeetingAbstracts/783.2

    Dietary prebiotics have shown potential in the anti-diabetes field. Our group has worked on resistant starch (RS), one type of prebiotic. We showed that dietary resistant starch possesses favorable impact on gut hormone profiles, including promoting GLP-1 release consistently, an potent anti-diabetic incretin.

    Also we demonstrated dietary RS reduces body fat (Keenan, 2006; Shen, 2008). The current project is to determine if resistant starch can improve glucose status in a genetic animal model of diabetes. We hypothesize that dietary resistant starch can improve glucose metabolism in a type 2 diabetic rat model.

    It’s rats, abstract only, but there’s the word ‘incretin’. Pretty cool! Hope it all works for you.

    I’m on week 7 and have had little to no gas this week if that means anything to anyone…

  290. tatertot says:

    @Bucket – I can’t believe I keep having new stuff to say! This is one of those things that’s so darn simple no one will make any money off of it. I hope it turns into something big and that people get all the benefits for free.

    Appetite suppression is so subjective. The Shagri-La diet promises appetite suppression, too, from a swig of olive oil in the afternoon. Many say it works, but if you follow along, nobody really loses any long-term weight (or so it seems to me).

    I can feel the appetite suppression with potato starch. Usually after dinner, I get in a snack mode. I can usually do good keeping the snacks small, like nuts or dark chocolate, but if I do my PS right after dinner–that’s it–no more snack urges, I’m full–even if I just take it with water.

    There was a study I linked a while back where they made a RS/olive oil spread out of either potato starch, Hi-Maize , or a non-rs starch and the potato starch spread induced the most satiety in the human volunteers.

  291. ” like nuts or dark chocolate,”

    Laf. So predictable.

    My night snacks of choice:

    Nuts
    Chocolate
    Yogurt & nuts
    Cottage cheese & nuts
    Nuked bacon
    A quick 2-egg plain omelet, which I can do in under 3 minutes including heating the pan.

  292. jammies says:

    Two questions:

    1. I am very, very sensitive to nightshades – potatoes are the worst and will give me an arthritis flare in 24 hours. Anyone here had issues from the solanine in the potatoes?

    2. Has anyone read anything on the role of RS or butyric acid in mental health? My health has improved an insane amount since adopting the autoimmune paleo diet about 2.5 years ago. However, the one thing that has happened along with it is that I have developed anxiety and depression which i never had before. I decided it wasn’t related to diet because I couldn’t find a nutrient that could be abundant in a CW diet that wasn’t in a Paleo Diet. Could RS be the missing link?

    Thanks for this article and thread. Very interesting!!!

  293. Woodwose says:

    @Ragnar, I also have a sensitive stomach, mostly of type IBS D. I had extreme flatulence the first two weeks but it has been very reduced as of lately. So I think it may be worth to try it for a few weeks more. Saurkraut, kefir, fermented fish and other fermented foods in combination with the RPS seemed to increase the flatulence at first but then it was very reduced and now my stomach feels more robust. It seems to me that RPS works as a catalystic ingredient for whatever else is consumed, so if i eat fermented foods the effect of those foods increase.

    @Tatertot, Even if one lacks some beneficial strains of bacteria, i think evolution in itself would make sure that butyrate producing strains would evolve if one sticks to it and gives the bacteria the right substrate? This almost seems to have happened in my case. Bacteria are evolution happening right under the microscope. Perhaps RPS is a kind of fourth macronutrient that we have been missing out on in the west, the vegetarians focus on fibre and i have been trying high fibre before without any positive effect but perhaps the benefical effect dont occur until RS is present with other types of fibre? The idea that our ancestors ate alot of raw tubers seems like pehaps a missing piece in the pussle, if the resistant starch adds an important synergie to the other fibres and macros in the gut this could explain the health benefits some of the research has seen.

    two interesting vegetable i have tried some time ago that also feels good for the stomach is cooked Okra and cooked molokhia leaves. I will incorporate these in my diet and see how they interact their soluble fiber interact with the RPS.

  294. tatertot says:

    @Jammies – Hey! There you are. Glad you could make it.

    1. I don’t think anybody with nightshade intolerance is having problems with potato starch as all the solanines are washed away in the starch making process. Try a small amount, if it gives your trouble there are other alternatives–plantain (green banana) flour, buckwheat flour and even Hi-Maize corn starch.

    2. Nobody has really talked about RS and mental health, but there is a book Potatoes not Prozac http://www.amazon.com/Potatoes-Seven-Step-Stabilize-Cravings-Recognize/dp/0684850141 , maybe RS fits into that somehow. I do think that a healthy gut flora could cause the things you are talking about.

    3. Tell us about the stuff you heard on RS and immunity!

  295. tatertot says:

    @woodwose – I’m glad to hear you are doing good with the potato starch, I would probably recommend people with IBS stay away from it based on Norm Robillard’s theory that IBS is caused by bacterial overgrowth in the small intestine and RS can feed this SIBO with unpleasant results. You are breaking new ground, you know!

    I think that high fiber without RS is a waste of time. Probably the higher in fiber you go, you are also getting more RS, but there seems to be a balance. Just eating a paleo diet doesn’t give you much of either. A paleo diet with a good vegetable base and targeting RS either through RS foods or an RS supplement like potato starch I think is key.

    I 100% believe that RS is the missing element in SAD and also Paleo. A robust gut microbiome is crucial to our overall health.

    On another note: yesterday I ate 2 very overripe bananas because this is something that has always gassed me up terribly and a couple weeks ago gave me enough gas to fill a hot-air balloon. Well, not a single toot. This last week, I have had less gas than ever in my life I believe. An occasional one, but nowhere near the crop-duster I was a few weeks ago. It’s pretty amazing really. I’m headed into week 8 I believe.

  296. @tatertot- Haha ya I was actually watching the show while trying to come up with a name to post under. I’m a big nerd for shows like that. I watch Game of thrones also if you know what that is..lol.

    I had read the link that you posted and don’t really know what to make of it to be honest. Is there a “official” test to determine whether or not I actually have SIBO or a form of it? Obviously I have something going on and come to think of it to many onions does seem to give me a little gas or stomach upset, but it varies really. I decided to quit taking the PS for a few days just to make sure that’s what was causing my discomfort. I have to say that I’m back to “normal” and all the gas/ stomach upset has gone away for the most part. I would like to try it again but maybe start at only 1TBSP and slowly move up from there just to see what happens. I know it has been stated that around 30-50g of RS is the beneficial dose ,but is getting any amount useful? Is the thought that RS doen’t start to be helpful until you actually ingest around 30gs?

    @ilise- Thanks for the insight and plan to start up again with either a lower dose or maybe I should just start trying to get it from cold/raw potatoes and green bananas before jumping full on with the PS. I don’t want to give up just yet on something that seems to be so beneficial to us. Let me know as the days go on if the stomach issues start to subside. It seems most people on here seem to have “iron” stomachs so I’m curious to see results from those who do not.

    @Woodwose- That’s great news because I was afraid that all hope might be lost. Like I said I only gave it a week so I’m regrouping and going take another stab at it. It’s good to here someone who has a sensitive stomach was able to come out on the other side of things. Let us know if things stay good or any changes that occur. It’s really interesting about RS possibly enhancing the effects of different foods.

    @Tatertot (again)- you said, “I would probably recommend people with IBS stay away from it based on Norm Robillard’s theory that IBS is caused by bacterial overgrowth in the small intestine and RS can feed this SIBO with unpleasant results. You are breaking new ground, you know!”

    Could you please give more insight on why this occurs and if there is any way to overcome it? I do have a few questions about SIBO/IBS and ingesting RS. I noticed you mentioned it being a “wash” for someone taking RS who has SIBO, but was wondering if it somehow can be overcome? I’m still looking over that site you posted so I’m trying to figure it all out ,but didn’t know if there was a way someone with a overgrowth of bacteria can somehow change it for the better? How would it even get that way?

    Sorry for all the questions, but there is so many in’s and out’s of this that it gets complicated especially if one has stomach issues going on.

  297. jammies says:

    When I get the chance, I will put together a little summary of the data I saw at a recent immunology conference regarding the essential role of butyric acid in regulating the immune response in the gut.

    But for now, something has just not been sitting quite right for me with this story. If resistant starch were that hard to get in the diet, these microbobes would have disappeared from the human gut a very long time ago. Even if one argued that the paleo man has been storing and eating tubers for a very, very long time (likely true), they have been cooking these for a very long time too. Either dependence on SCFA for gut health has occurred recently and is dependent on grain consumption, or there are more ways than just RS to get SCFA production in the gut.

    So the question for me changes. It is no longer how to add resistant starch to be diet, but how to add foods that can be converted to short chain fatty acids.

    In that case, more than just resistant starch comes in to play. Pectin and vegetable fiber, for example, can both be fermented in to short chain fatty acids.

    Thoughts?

  298. ilise says:

    thanks Leo and Tater for your experiences with diet.

    Yesterday took one tsp of PS with every meal plus extra 1/4tsp before bed-did not get to sleep until 5am and this is unusual for me even with terrible sleep I usually can fall asleep no problem. I dont think its the starch though -I think Im absorbing nutrients better and perhaps it my vitamins keeping me awake?
    First three days a lot of gas now not so much. Still signs of constipation. Experienced the mood elevation on three tsp per day. Seratonin?
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/06/120612115812.htm

    For the person with anxiety -try alternating days of magnesium and calcium. I had symptoms related to these two minerals after going low carb.

    Im curious as to why RS would work well for those with SIBO-if RS feeds the good guys perhaps they would be able to take back the terrain after being fed and multiplying.

  299. SteveRN says:

    Tater, on the cookie recipe, did you end up using the full amount of brown sugar, or half?
    The first time I tried IF, I slept fine if I ate when I woke, did not eat again till the next day. Started again a few months ago, and sleep was terrible, due to waking up hungry. Think I may try again, but doing 2tbs of PS in water before bed, see if that makes a differece. Sleep quality can be iffy, as I work nights, and when off I try to keep a night schedule, but life often gets in the way, and I get all screwed up. I have noticed a definate change in my dream quality/vividness though, pretty amazing. I suppose it could be the power of suggestion, but what ever, it’s interesting. Had some bowel changes, all over the place at first, many other factors at play, but things have settled down, but still have a new and different ……quality to my BM’s, a good quality.

  300. ilise says:

    Meant to say -“curious why RS would not be beneficial for SIBO..”

  301. tatertot says:

    @Jammies – It’s not so much that the foods or bacteria have disappeared, it’s that our eating style doesn’t provide enough food to keep our gut microbiome in good shape–kind of like fertilizer on a garden, not enough, or in the wrong proportions, and plants won’t reach their full potential or weeds will take over because they require less nutrients.

    There are only a few things you can eat that will be converted to SCFA: FODMAPS, fiber and RS mainly. The trouble with FODMAPS and fiber, they are eaten by all the gut bacteria in different amounts with different outcomes–with RS, it is eaten almost exclusively by the butyrogenic microbes (SCFA producing).

    You seem like a person who isn’t afraid to dig for info–I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

  302. tatertot says:

    @SteveRN – On the cookie dough recipe: I used about 1/4 a cup of brown sugar and some stevia for sweetening, vanilla extract, pinch of salt, plus 1 cup of butter and 2 eggs and a bit of potato starch. Whipped the melted butter and eggs, added sugar and stuff, mixed into banana flour and added potato starch until it was pretty stiff, then added in a bunch of broken up 90% dark chocolate bar.

    It was damn good. Too good. Sits in the belly like a brick–in a good way. Way too many calories, and too tempting, to make it a staple, though.

    Night shifts suck. Hope you find something that works for you!

  303. tatertot says:

    @ilise and Ragnar – Norm Robillard has an interesting theory about SIBO and IBS/GERD. He believes that RS and fiber feed an out-of-place communty of gut microbes that have taken up residence in the small intestine, producing gas and causing IBS problems and GERD. Makes perfect sense. The gas has to go somewhere, can’t escape in the normal way, so creates a back-pressure in the small intestine.

    I think if one has this problem, RS may make it worse. This is all N=1, though. Self-experimentation will rule on this particular problem.

    I don’t know what the actual optimal dose is. I used 30g as a starting point because it’s what they use in most of the studies, have never seen a problem using that amount, and lesser amounts from real food did not seem to be making a noticeable difference to me. Switching from the 3-10g I was getting from real food to adding 4TBS of potato starch made an almost overnight difference in digestion, blood glucose, satiety, and sleep. Again, this is all N=1. Maybe 1TBS is the right amount, or maybe just eating 2-3 green bananas a week is the right amount. Nobody has ever pinned it down. It’s going to take a bunch of us doing these experiments to get someone interested in making a good recommendation.

    Right now Hi-Maize makers, National Starch are busy trying to come up with a number involving their special corn starch. When they do, rest-assured it will be profit-driven! Hopefully the paleo community can come up with a better number based on paleo foods.

  304. Phil Parsons says:

    I have been going over my observations from the past week, and after the initial couple of days, there was a clear downward trend in terms of sleep quality and duration, and general feeling of well-being. The gassiness has progressed to the point of being painful and there have been no improvements in the elimination department—in fact things have gotten a bit worse.

    The one steady positive has been rock-star blood sugar control, but I’m not 100% sure that’s due to the RS. My plan was to vary the dose and timing a bit, but then I happened upon this, and now I am reconsidering:
    http://gutsense.com/

    Excerpt from “Gut Sense” which the author is making available online until it gets published officially:
    —————————————-
    Soluble fiber: A killer food, literally

    Thanks to the incredible adaptability and resiliency of our internal organs, the wreckage from insoluble fiber takes decades to knock you down for good. And once you learn about its perils, it’s easy to avoid. Not so with soluble fiber. In the immediate realm, it’s far more harmful than insoluble because it’s so insidiously stealthy.

    All traces of soluble fiber are always expertly concealed from scrutiny behind obscure names such as agar-agar, algae, alginate, ß-glucan, cellulose gum, carrageen, fructooligosaccharides, guaran, guar gum, hemicellulose, inulin, Irish moss, kelp, lignin, mucilage, pectin, oligofructose, polydextrose, polylos, resistant dextrin, resistant starch, red algae, and others…
    —————————————
    (http://gutsense.com/gutsense/chinashop.html)

    Note that I am reconsidering for me personally. If I was experiencing the same clear benefits that others are reporting here, it would be a different story.

    I hope I’m not peeing in anyone’s Cheerios, I just found that Monastyrsky’s indictment of dietary fiber supplementation is completely consistent with my own digestive experiences, and perhaps, as tatertot has stated many times, this isn’t for everyone, including me. Perhaps this means I have latent digestive problems that haven’t presented overtly, or maybe simply having a sluggish bowel makes RS supplementation a bad idea.

  305. tatertot says:

    @Phil – No shame in opting out! In fact, I would much rather someone make notes of things not going to plan and quit than keeping going when it’s not working as they hoped.

    I know Konstantin’s work very well. He is a product of the fiber-craze. He rightfully spoke against conventional wisdom that the best thing for every single person was to cram fiber in their guts. He found that all these bulking agents were actually counter-productive. I don’t think he has a good grasp on RS, though. RS is not a bulking agent and it seems to be healthful in relatively small doses compared to fiber.

    In fact, Konstantin was one of the very first people I asked about RS. Some of his remarks left me scratching my head, but it is what it is.

    Here is our brief exchange:

    T. April 21, 2013 at 12:03 pm
    Are you familiar with the term “Resistant Starch”? It has been studied since he early 80′s and has been shown to increase glucose control and lipid metabolism by feeding crucial colonic microflora.
    I see dieters adding approx 40g per day of raw potato starch to drinks and cold food and seeing immediate improvement in gut function, blood sugar, and hunger control, all leading to weight loss.
    Any words of advice on this?
    Reply

    Konstantin Monastyrsky April 21, 2013 at 12:24 pm
    Tim,
    The “resistant” in resistant starch means that this particular carbohydrates can’t be broken by enzymes in the small intestine, and gets down into the colon undigested, where it will act as a “prebiotic,” meaning it will provide the flora in the gut with “digestible” nutrients. The truth is, our innate flora is primarily anaerobic, and obtains all of its nutrients from the mucosal membrane. It doesn’t “live” of outside of mucosal layer, and doesn’t need “resistant” starch to function. To learn more about this subject, read my book about fiber.
    Furthermore, “glucose control” is governed by the pancreas, while “lipid metabolism” is governed by the liver. While the gut flora is of paramount importance, it doesn’t have any direct control of either mechanisms, only indirect, through its role in immunity and the synthesis of vitamins essential for energy and structural metabolism.

  306. Phil Parsons says:

    Hmm, that is interesting. I plan to get his book, so maybe that will reveal more.

    Maybe I’m related to The Bear; I eat vegetables because I like them, but I don’t seem to need them at all.

    Bear’s Words of Wisdom
    http://highsteaks.com/carnivores-creed/owsley-the-bear-stanley/bears-words-of-wisdom/

  307. tatertot says:

    @jammies (or whoever!) –

    Here is a study http://www.agriculturejournals.cz/publicFiles/56586.pdf where some scientists were trying to modify natural raw starches into something that could be more marketable. In the end, they found that raw starch was the better than their attempts at modified starch. While that may not interest you, their discussion on gut microflora might.

    Discussed at length is bifidobacteria–often thought to be the most beneficial family of gut microbes. There are hundreds of bifido family members.

    One in particular is Bifido Breve, or ‘b. breve’ for short. b. breve feeds on undigested plant matter, including RS. The typical paleo diet does not provide a whole lot of undigested plant matter to the large intestine, especially an LC paleo diet. Hardly any diet provides RS. An LC paleo diet provides around 10-20g of fiber and0-3g RS. So, if you want to have a gut with a healthy population of bifido, such as b. breve, you’d be wise to eat a lot more undigestible plant matter. This could be done by upping your raw veggie intake to several pounds a day and including many servings of cold potatoes and rice, or, as in my experiment, 4TBS of raw potato starch.

    I’m not saying that everyone should start slamming potato starch, I just wanted to see what would happen if I did.

    Here is a brief discussion of b. breve from http://probiotic.org/bifidobacterium-breve.htm

    “… One of the most useful and friendly bacteria in this environment is the species called “bifidobacterium breve.” … Once established, B breve is unique in its ability to compete with other bacteria, due to the large variety of molecules it can digest. Some people have a great deal of this helpful bacteria, but others may need a supplement to encourage its presence.

    The symbiotic relationship that humans have with bacteria is particularly important in the functioning of the colon. In medical studies, ailments such as antibiotic-associated diarrhea, allergies, gas, and irritable bowel syndrome have been linked to a patient’s shortage of the B breve bacteria. The presence of B breve appears to inhibit E coli. …

    In young babies who are breast-fed, B breve has been found to make up a majority of the colon’s bacteria. It appears that as we age, many people lose a large number of the B breve bacteria until it makes up less than ten percent of the digestive-related bacteria count. Less helpful bacteria which do not have the same immune benefits as B breve may over-colonize the human body during times of illness or stress, but you can change the odds of being a “good host” to B breve. By encouraging the robust workers such as B breve, digestive-related illnesses and their associated discomfort may be discouraged or significantly reduced. “

  308. ilise says:

    Tater-if RS feeds good bacteria as well as bad whose to say that the bad is going to win? Im thinking that even in those with SIBO there are still prominent numbers and variation of good bacteria that could take over after being fed. This does seem like the way nature would work. Also seems there would be a lot of gas and other uncomfortable symptoms occurring during the transition stage.

    In all the studies you have been reading what is the general timeline for getting the good bacteria up and running?

  309. tatertot says:

    @ilise – The idea behind Norm Robillard’s theory is that bacteria that is good in the large intestine, is terrible in the small intestine.

    This bacteria gets in the small intestine in different ways, a person can have a problem with the ileocecal valve, the muscle that is supposed to keep the large intestine from backing up into the small intestine. Also diverticuli and problems in gastric emptying can cause SIBO.

    I’d like to think that SIBO could be prevented with well-functioning gut microbes, but once it’s there, it’s probably made worse by more undigestible carbs and fiber.

    As to general timelines, it seems that changes in gut microflora communities are always in flux, changing and rearranging with every meal, but in the case of bifidobacteria and some other good ones, it can take 30 days or so for them to fully expand with continued feedings of RS.

    I posted some links the other day that showed gut microbe activity with different diets, you could see from the chart that the microbes changed really quickly when the diet changed.

    I think some day, someone will be able to tell us what we should eat to maximize our gut flora, and I’ll bet it will have a good daily dose of RS and fiber.

  310. Joshua says:

    Phil – my money’s on sluggish bowel. I can’t even conceive of only having 1-2 BMs per week. I usually do 1-2 per day.

    Thanks for sharing your results though. I always hate it when the feedback to something is all rainbows and unicorn farts. A variety of feedback keeps things real.

  311. ilise says:

    thanks Tater for the explanation. I still believe that nature has some way of taking care of small intestinal bacteria other than antibiotics.

    I myself have some type of gut problem where I bloat from refined sugar and refined grains, however I am not seeing any bloat from the potato starch ..at least not at my current level- three tsp/day.

    I loved the charts with the microbial activity!

  312. tatertot says:

    @ilise – I’d hate to be diagnosed with SIBO. There really is no cure other than antibiotics or a diet that starves all the microbes in your large intestine. Maybe someday someone will figure it all out.

    @jammies – I was reading some of the blogs on http://humanfoodproject.com/an-eaters-guide-to-a-healthy-microbiome/ and came across this interesting idea:

    You know how everyone on Mark’s Daily Apple, especially the keto crowd, gives me a hard time about SCFA? They all think that eating high fat/SCFA is the same as making it from RS. This is from a professional gut microbiome researcher:

    ” Turns out, the high fat diet reduces (shifts) the levels of Bifidobacterium. These particular bacteria are known to produce short-chain fatty acids (butyrate, propionate and lactate) as a byproduct of fermenting things like dietary fiber. When their numbers go down – as with a high fat diet – the amount of short-chain fatty acids (SCFA) go down as well. These SCFAs are known to improve gut barrier function (think leaky gut) through a number of mechanisms.

    So, in this ‘one example,’ if you change your diet (higher fat in this case) you reduce your SCFA production – which is an ecosystem service provided by your microbes – then your gut starts to leak and things that do not belong in your blood start showing up (LPS) and cause low-grade inflammation (the lab coats call it endotoxemia) which has been linked to insulin resistance, type 2 diabetes and obesity (click here for longer discussion on this). It’s interesting to note, that its not the fat per se that causes the Bifidobacterium to shift downward in abundance and thus cause a leaky gut, but the reduction of fermentable substrates. That’s is, you cut off the Bifido’s food supply and thus they slow down the SCFA production – which is prtective. As the famous Rajin Cajun James Carville might say, “It’s the Fiber stupid.””

  313. Phil Parsons says:

    @Tatertot – More great information and links, so much to think about. I agree with Joshua that the sluggish bowel is probably the source of most of my problems, and also explains why the first couple of days went well, until in all likelihood things started to back up and cause problems. After some discussion with my wife, she brought me in off the ledge and I have decided to keep going with a reduced dose and titrate up from there. I will also take it earlier in the day so I am not awakened too early by bladder urges.

    @Joshua – I’ve heard varying opinions about BM frequency. When keto-adapted, I usually go every 2-3 days, which according to Monastyrsky is right at the limit beyond which you are officially constipated, but in terms of well-being, energy level and such hasn’t been a problem. But this time around for whatever reason things are intolerably slow, which is definitely a Priority 1 must-fix :-)

  314. leo delaplante says:

    ilise@ nice long weekend up-north(ontario) my diet consist of a smoothie in the morning consisting of 1 banana ,,,greek yogurt,,,amla(indian gooseberry keeps bs in check),,,pumpkin seeds,,pumpkin protein powder…2tbsp buckwheat flour,,,,kale or berries,,,cinamon…water..about 500 cals…………….lunch can of sardines,,1-friut,treat(dark chocolate,mary’s crackers ,,,cheeze,,,,about 300 cals supper is up to 1000 cals ,,,singapore noodles with meat,,,live anf potatoes and veg,,,fish with rice,,,,i like cooking korean thai and chinese,,,steak,,hamburgers with non-glutten bread,,,sheppard pie mt calorie intake is 1700 to 1900/day,,,,,,losing 1 lbs/week…….leo

  315. tatertot says:

    @Phil – I should think benefits would be seen in gut flora with as little as 1TBS/day, seeing as how that effectively doubles the amount you are probably getting and puts you at twice the US average. 1TBS/day is approx. 7g. The US average is 3-5g/day. If you are also eating some food with prebiotics you should be in good shape. 30+g/day may very well be overkill.

    Konstantin lost me when he says people should poop after every meal! I’m regular as clockwork, as long as I get my coffee in the morning. Once a day for as long as I can remember. I always thought that was the norm, when I hear of people only going once a week–I can’t imagine that.

  316. Allison says:

    First week, I did 2 Tablespoons. This second week I have been getting 4 Tablespoons. Background information—- 46 years old and hourly/semi hourly hot flashes (not bad, just really annoying). Doctor did an ultrasound and told me possible PCOS because of progesterone insufficiency or too much estrogen to balance it out. Doctor prescribed metaformin and I also went ketogenic to improve blood glucose.

    Did see improvement, however, I lost a lot of hair and couldn’t maintain well the lifestyle. I probably had the bad hormone imbalance because of multiple years of yo-yo dieting, LC for five years and multiple rounds of HCG (extremely afraid of carbohydrates) . Goal the last few months has been to eat unlimited vegetables (10 servings the goal) adding in carrots and butternut squash and swallowing frozen pieces of liver everyday. Pretty silly but I have felt a lot better. I would like to do more “safe starches” still too scared, however, I came across this discussion with potato starch and decided it wasn’t going to kill me to try and see if it could help me balance things out and eventually be able to eat a sweet potato and rice.

    I have really wanted to be more PHD because I have noticed the problems that Paul discusses dry mucous membranes and a while back while I was doing Low-Carb Paleo and Crossfitting. I partially tore my bicep tendon (Paul made a comment about tendons being more brittle without glucose) It has taken me two years to rehabilitate my arm .

    Maybe the potato starch has nothing to do with it BUT—- yesterday, last night and this morning I haven’t had a hot flash—-so weird because this has been a normal operating procedure for sooo long. Also, I can actually blow my nose in the morning. Other things, yes the gas but not uncomfortable just noisy. :) Also the bowels have bin a tad sluggish. Hunger control- wonderful. Morning glucose levels in the high seventies low eighties. :) I think the hunger control has to do with the better glucose regulation something I saw with ketosis. Nice not to have to do that for the glucose control. Still taking metaformin with meals.

    I think metaformin may get a bad wrap because people don’t slowly titrate their levels and don’t wait a while for any stomach discomfort to attenuate. It took me about a month and then didn’t have any problems after that. Anyway, that is my little individual first reactions to the experiment. I would be curious what people thought what might be causing my sudden loss of hot flashes.

  317. Phil Parsons says:

    @tatertot – I cut the serving by about 2/3, reduced the amount of water, and took it an hour earlier last night. I slept like a baby, and vivid dreams returned, which was encouraging. Very slight gassiness but also a welcome trip to the bathroom (2nd day in a row), so maybe that’s a step in the right direction.

    I’ve also been devouring Monastyrsky’s Gut Sense writings. He’s a little bit out there on some stuff, but by-and-large it is really clicking with my own experiences. As soon as it’s practical I plan to integrate Richard’s “raw milk intervention.” I think kefir/kombucha and other fermented foods might be just the ticket for me.

  318. I guess I wasn’t reading closely about the vivid dreams thing b/c I didn’t look for it when I started this last Thursday. Anyway, been doing it almost every day (not Friday) and have definitely noticed some serious dream action, which isn’t the norm for me. Note I’ve taken it mixed with almond butter every time and always on an empty stomach (typically 12+ hours fasted).

    The mixed with almond butter has been tricky (continues to be tricky) but today I added a TBSP of KerryGold and wow it is GOOD this way. Mind we’re talking 440 calories on paper (4 tbsp potato starch, 1 tbsp butter, 2 tbsp of raw almond butter). It *could be* as little as 350 effective calories though due to the waste.

    And meanwhile, it’s a butyrate bomb given the butter :). Hope someone else tries this so we can compare notes. If nothing else, expect tastiness!

  319. tatertot says:

    @allison – I’m no doctor, but pretty good at connecting dots. What you are describing reminds me of what a grad student found while doing his thesis on RS and rats. He hoped to find a miracle fat-loss trick, but ended up concluding that:

    “Although RS was not effective in lowering body weight or body fat in the first study, the data indicates that resistant starch may lower body weight and fat in postmenopausal women.”

    That may sound strange, but why would it work for fat-loss in post-menopausal women and not everybody else? The answer is that there is a definite hormone connection, probably through gut microbe interaction.

    This post brightened up my day–I hope you keep on for a good long time and let Richard know later how it went. Good or bad.

    Thanks!

    Here is the thesis I was referencing: http://etd.lsu.edu/docs/available/etd-11132008-182023/unrestricted/jrobertthesis.pdf

  320. tatertot says:

    @Justin – What you made is pretty close to my banana flour cookie dough. 2 cups banana flour, pound of Kerrygold, 2 eggs and some other stuff. The problem was it was so frikkin’ good I ate it too fast! Making a little batch of almond butter delight (registered trademark pending) on demand would be a good way to prevent overeating. I’ve spent a lot of time trying to incorporate the starch into something I was going to eat anyway. It mixes well with anything liquid.

    I’d try your idea, but me and almond butter don’t get along. For some reason when I buy it, it’s all gone the next day! Have you ever tried coconut butter? I used to melt the whole jar a little bit and mix in raw cocoa nibs. If I do it again, I’ll add some potato starch, too.

  321. I do have some coconut butter at home … and it crossed my mind about 30 minutes ago that could be an alternative.

    I *feel* you on almond butter (or peanut butter, which I just try not to have in our house b/c it’s just a decades old food I love). It is great by the spoonful and you definitely shouldn’t try the Maranatha raw almond butter with a hint of maple sugar they’re now making because it is EXTREMELY GOOD.

    Today is a non-workout day for me, so it’s a calorically restricted day — that’s why I try to go with something extra fatty as my breaking-the-fast late afternoon mini-meal (and also something not too high in protein). Ideally this would be a tasty and satiating food, which has been somewhat of a challenge b/c the raw almond butter we have at the office here is just OK with celery. I’ve done boiled eggs we stock here, too, and that is pretty good.

    While almond butter pushes the envelope (b/c it’s delicious!) a bit, I seem to be able to manage portion control relatively well. That said, when you mix it with the starch (and the butter, wow!), you get a TON more volume and a really good consistency. Sure your calories are much higher but again, this is a mini-meal for me — a way to break the fast. That it feels indulgent and plays to a vice just makes it all the better (for me).

    I’m not curious if this particular combo might have some AS effects due to the added butter. Doubt it (AS never seems to work with me!).

    Finally, other mix ideas — melt down 4 squares of Lindt 90% and mix 4 TBSP potato starch with it … icing?? Ha see where my mind is at here? Make this experiment into something delectable! Why not? Ingesting calories without taste just isn’t my thing, I guess.

    BTW, in the TMI department … while I’ve had some gas on this experiment, it’s not been terrible in volume (definitely higher than usual). I’ve been very regular (daily) though … dare I say, satisfyingly so?

    One thing of note is just how the starch just feels like it sits in my gut. Anyone else get that feeling?

    I also wonder about water retention from the RS. Anyone noticed any feelings of bloating? I’m not noticing huge bloat per se just some (I think). Related: I’ve often felt that eating high fiber tortillas (a weird vice of mine) seems to cause some water retention, which I’ve always associated with the fiber in them (mind, not RS fiber).

    Just for sake of diet clarity: I’m not a low-carber. I’m more or less in a weight-maintenance phase with body comp probably in the 8-10% range following LeanGains.

  322. tatertot says:

    This is a recipe from a 1922 study on starch digestibility:

    The pudding closely resembled ice-cream in texture and flavor and was made according to the following formula:

    Experimental Frozen Pudding.
    6 quarts milk. 2 1/2 cups sugar.
    4 pounds raw starch. 1 tablespoon salt.
    3 cups table oil. 1/2 cup lemon or vanilla extract.

    The uncooked starch was mixed with the milk, sugar, and oil and immediately frozen in the same way as ice-cream. The flavoring extract masked to a great extent the taste of the uncooked starch and gave the frozen pudding a pleasing flavor.

    And this is a bizarre concoction that one of Paul Jaminet’s readers came up with:

    “When I was a kid, I used to make a potato ‘candy’, which we kids called “slug dreams” :mrgreen: – it consisted of left over mashed potatoes, vanilla, cream cheese, and lots of powdered sugar. We mixed that into a fudge-like consistancy, and then rolled logs of it in chocolate chips that had been crushed in a blender with graham crackers. Tonight I mixed two tablespoons of potato starch with about 1/2 – 3/4 that amount of whipping cream, 1/2 tsp of vanilla, and about 1 tsp of maple syrup. It totally had the same texture as the ‘slug dreams’ – but not sickly sweet, but still a candy-like taste and texture I remembered. I loved it! I can imagine adding a bit of almond butter to it, for a different taste – and then you could dip it in really dark chocolate . .”

    I think I’ll take the Slug Dreams over the ice cream!

  323. Allison says:

    @tatertot Thanks for the reference. Extremely interesting…there is no way I am going to forget my resistant starch when I don’t have to have annoying hot flashes and help with decreased hunger. I have lost weight.. I will keep you posted on my progress. THANK-YOU!!

  324. @justin, just on the 1st comment because I’ve been super busy and am always behind the last few days on comments.

    Took 3T last night with a glass of chocolate milk. I get the super high quality C milk from whole foods, 1 quart and mix it about 2/3 1/3 with milk some days, so it takes a week for that 1 Q.

    Anyway, I basically dreamt a whole weird ass novel last night. Of my own making since I’ve never read anything so out of nowhere. The complexity is astounding. I may be getting a sense of where religion really came from.

  325. @justin

    Just a follow up but weirdly, the PS seems to act as a diuretic for me and I piss and piss. Later on, my hands and feet are bulging veins.

  326. Phil Parsons says:

    Since Sunday I have:
    – Reduced the PS serving to two measured Tbsps (down from four heaping ones)
    – Consuming the serving in the afternoon before dinner (it was right before bed previously)
    – Increasing fat in my diet (turns out I wasn’t consuming nearly as much as I thought)
    – Having a moderate (6oz) serving of Fage Greek yogurt in the morning
    – Implementing some of the behavioral changes suggested by Konstantin Monastyrsky in his Gut Sense writing (the dietary fat increase and morning yogurt were also from that reading)

    And the results so far:
    – I sleep very deeply and awake refreshed
    – The vivid, narrative dreams have returned
    – I am not hungry at night, but ravenous in the morning
    – FBG is more varied than previously
    – I am regular (so far – 1 per day, 3 days and counting)

    So it’s a mixed bag. I don’t mind the morning hunger, and the (minor) FBG swings might be from dietary changes. But so far things are headed in a very positive direction, especially in the elimination dept. because it demonstrates that my vagus nerve is probably free of damage. Diabetic neuropathy is a nightmare from which you never awake and diabetics fear it more than death itself, or at least this diabetic does.

  327. @ Phil

    Good to hear things are slowly progressing for you. I was about to go on my second run with PS until you posted that link to “Gut sense”, which basically stopped me in my tracks.

    So far I’m just experimenting with cold potatoes and green bananas for now until I decide if it’s worth it to increase my discomfort. Like you I have been reading that site (thanks for posting it) and it really gave me a wake up call. Kinda scared the s**t out of me for sure. I thought at best RS was harmless ,but for some obviously not.

    I also have been eating a little higher fat and have been also consuming some Fage during the day at random times. Try heating up some blueberries and shave some dark chocolate into it as well….so dang good. I’m not diabetic but I would still like to get some benefits from RS if I can so for now I’m just trying it out with whole foods to see if I can tolerate that.

    How spot do you think Konstatin is in your opinion? I think he is probably correct about most of his writings, but not really sure about some things he says. The Digestive health website that Tater posted above is good as well and I have been checking that out as well.

  328. leo delaplante says:

    im adding 2 tbsp to my morning smoothie

  329. tatertot says:

    My take on Konstantin is that he is kind of full of himself. He started a diet series on a Westin A. Price backed blog http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/the-real-reason-diets-fail-and-what-you-can-do-about-it/ and was supposed to do one article a week for a year, then put it all into a book. He only got about 3 articles into it and the advice was so bad and his manner so repugnant, I think they pulled the plug on him. His target audience was women, I don’t think they liked him too well. Read for yourself, I thought most of his diet advice was off.

    As to fiber and RS–I think different people have different needs. I’ve never met anyone who poops 3 times a day and thinks it’s normal. He may be a really smart guy, but I’d take his advice with a grain of salt.

    Anyone advocating a no-fiber diet for everyone can’t be thinking it all the way through, IMO.

  330. Phil Parsons says:

    @Ragnar,

    Gut Sense had the same effect on me, and my immediate reaction was to go Full Inuit! But some reflection, and discussion with my wife, led me to take a closer look at what I was doing. Once I understood I was eating too little fat and consuming too much PS, it was obvious why I was having a bad time of it. With some adjustments, I am doing really well so far.

    I’m not as expert as some here, so I am not really qualified to judge, but I can say that everything in Gut Sense that applied to me was right on the money, and thus far his advice seems to be working.

    I agree with tatertot that his tone takes some getting used to, and I wouldn’t advise reading him uncritically. I have encountered others who claim that a BM after every meal is the norm (typically from the vegetarian/vegan camp) and Konstantin does concede that at least once a day can be considered regular. His dietary advice to me seems like fairly standard and sensible low-carb, and he claims he is only against fiber supplementation, and has no problem with whatever naturally occurring fiber you might encounter in vegetables.

    And again with tatertot, I wouldn’t advocate the same diet for everyone. It’s tough, because I am losing weight and I get many people asking me for advice (including my doctor, who was astounded by my latest blood panels) and it really feels like a cop out when I tell them it depends on who they are individually.

  331. Phil Parsons says:

    Spam—the perfect food?

    “Hot dogs, which Americans eat with abandon, contain around 15 ingredients, many of them obscure chemicals. Spam contains six: pork (shoulder and ham), salt, water, sugar, sodium nitrite, and potato starch.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/life/food/2013/05/i_love_spam_hawaiians_are_ahead_of_the_curve_in_their_celebration_of_the.single.html

  332. @Phil Parsons

    I adore Spam Musubi, make it at least 2 times a week. As for the potato starch in spam, food companies use potato starch as a thickening agent and not much is needed. My rough guess would be a few grams for a can. A can is a lot of spam, I usually only eat half a 7 ounce can at a time. The other factor is ingredients are listed in order of quantity, so there is less starch in spam than sodium nitrate.

  333. Correction: the ingredients order means there is more potato starch than sodium nitrate. In a 12 oz. can there is almost 5 grams of salt, so there would be less than 5 grams potato starch. I would guess 2-3 grams potato starch, or about 500 mg per serving.

  334. tatertot says:

    Not to change the subject, but when we were talking about Konstanin Monastyrsky, I forgot all about this video he made: http://on.aol.com/video/why-does-anal-sex-cause-constipation–117257630

    It’s called “Why anal sex causes constipation” A must-see for anyone contemplating buggery.

  335. Phil P says:

    I stumbled upon a mention of the 5 part “Fiaf” series from several years back over at Hyperlipid (since he has apparently read the entire Internet, I’m betting tatertot has seen it already ;-) ). Fascinating stuff, although I’m not quite sure what to do with it. Peter appears to be saying that feeding gut bacteria (i.e. eating fiber and/or RS (I assume)) can suppress fat burning (which implies that starving them with a high fat diet is better idea).

    I think it was Matt Stone who said that if you aren’t confused by nutrition, you aren’t studying it hard enough.

    Here’s the link to part 1, you can access the other four from the labels section on the right of the page:
    Fiaf: Who’s fat is it anyway?

    @tatertot re: Konstantin’s video. Yeah. There was content to that effect in Gut Sense. I don’t know if that’s anti-gay, clinical, or just Ukranian (I’ve worked with several Ukrainians and Russians over the years, and they can be um, candid, which is one of the traits I love about them).

  336. Phil P says:

    Whoops, I messed up the link somehow. Here it is:
    http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2007/12/fiaf-whos-fat-is-it-anyway.html

    PS My own fat burning seems unaffected by PS consumption (it might even be accelerating, but it might instead just be my newfound, blessed, regular bathroom schedule). I’ve dropped five pounds since Sunday.

  337. tatertot says:

    @Phil P – Apparently you were wrong–I must have missed that series when I was reading the internet!

    Anyway, thanks for ruining my morning–I had to read those articles and several attached studies.

    I’ve seen a lot of studies using those germ-free mice, and I think they can make them do whatever they want. In the case of the studies referenced in Peter’s posts, they took germ-free mice, tranplanted gut microbes from regular mice into one batch and left another batch germ-less, and fed both batches of mice a high-fat, high-sugar diet. The germ-enhanced mice gained weight faster than the germ free mice.

    I really don’t know what this means. I could only see the abstract, maybe the germ-free mice were becoming malnourished which is why the didn’t gain weight. That makes sense.

    I have never really thought of this whole potato starch/resistant starch thing as a weight loss tool, but I’ve always felt that if someone’s gut microbes were severely out-of-whack, that getting them back into a healthy profile by adding RS, then maybe that would fix underlying metabolic issues, including obesity.

    There have been several high-profile diet gurus who have recommended a sterile gut for better health. Ray Peat is one. He says to eat a carrot salad every day for it’s antimicrobial properties and actually supports antibiotic use for the sole purpose of killing gut microbes.

    I think we have seen the dangers of killing gut microbes with overuse of antibiotics, though.

    But on my N=1, I’m a guy who gains weight easily if I let myself go. After 2 months of 30+gRS/day I have remained the exact same weight. I have been weight stable for about 2 years, though. Not looking to lose any, just interested in maintaining.

  338. tatertot says:

    http://aem.asm.org/content/78/18/6656.full

    Here is a study with germ-free rats and regular rats fed RS from a very young age.

    They found that the germ-free rats ate more and gained less weight! Sounds great for dieting, right? Except that these were very young, fast growing rats.

    These kind of studies are hard to digest (resistant studies?) but I think if you read it you will see they are saying that feeding RS increases SCFA production and leads to a healthier animal.

    Think of what would happen if you created a germ-free cow. Cows rely on gut microbes to convert 100’s of pounds of grass each day into fat.

    I guess in the end, there is still much to be learned about gut microbes and their interaction with us.

  339. I must have missed the FIAF posts on Hyperlipid (I didn’t get into all this nutty diet stuff until 2008 and while I read up on MOST Hyperlipid stuff … I must have missed some!).

    Fascinating that the residents of our gut evolved to what reads like a division-of-labor trade off — I mean, this is really interesting stuff, right?

    If my reading of it all is correct, the bacteria just amplify our own fed/fasted response — if we are fed, store excess as fat! If we’re fasted, burn baby burn!

    Anyway, my gut tells me gut bacteria would only be problematic for weight loss if you don’t have a balanced diet and/or have a broken metabolism.

  340. tatertot says:

    I’ve had a profound interest in gut microbes for several years after reading about them somewhere. I think every paleo blogger has done a piece of two on gut microbes, but there has never been any advice on things you could do to help them along except eat fermented foods and a lot of different veggies. The low-carb mantra pretty much killed any hope of actually feeding our gut flora the fiber fractions and RS they thrive on.

    I hope someday some really smart person comes up with the ideal amount of RS, inulin, FOS, GOS, etc… to eat in order to have happy guts. I think that 1-4TBS of potato starch per day is a step in the right direction. Maybe you end up feeding a species of gut microbe that can make you fat, but I think that what will really happen is that you will provide food to all of the microbial residents and they will fight it out for space with the most robust and beneficial microbes winning.

  341. @tatertot – My experiment is now at 2 weeks. Started with 2 tbls every morning & now up to 3. Notable observations are better sleeping & dreaming, feeling of satiety for most of the day & improved digestion. Weight is holding steady. Always had 1 BM/day, but at unpredictable times… now it’s once/day like clockwork. No other discernible pros or cons. Can’t think of any reason to discontinue. I’m LC/moderate protein/high fat… funny that PS now comprises over 1/2 of my daily carb intake.

  342. Woodwose says:

    Regarding Hypelipids info on fiaf and gut microbes, the article doesnt say what kind of microbes supresses FIAF. Surely nut all gut microbes act the same way in conunction with the human metabolism?

    Since i began supplementening with RPS i have enjoyed an increase in satiety, especially after the 4 week mark, so my guess is that the good kind of gut microbes would be FIAF neutral or even FIAF supporting while the other kind of microbes, the kind that cant live on RS, would be FIAF supressing.

  343. Woodwose says:

    Sorry for the bad spelling in the above post.

  344. Question for @tatertot – After 2 weeks, I’m up to 4 tbls, & I don’t plan to add any more down the road. There’s been discussion about fiber, & that’s what I want to address. I am strict LC “paleo.” I’m a creature of habit, so I have the same exact breakfast every day… 3 pastured eggs/bacon, cooked in pastured butter with onions & bell peppers. I follow that up with a smoothie… 3 tbls ground flaxseed, 1 banana, strawberries, 5 tbls coconut oil, splash of water & now 4 tbls PS. As you can see, this is a fair amount of fiber… roughly 15-16 grams. Carb consumption the rest of the day is minimal… <10 grams from fruits/veggies. As a result of the PS, I'm now skipping lunch… perhaps a handful of macadamias and an apple in the afternoon. Do you think my so-called adequate fiber intake is actually enhancing whatever the PS is doing? Also, do you think the amount of fat I consume in the morning might be subtracting from what the PS could be doing? If you recall from my previous posts, I seem to be doing OK with the PS… improved sleep & digestion (no clue about FBG). Just curious about the fiber, since I probably get a lot more than most people who do paleo, and definitely more than most who do SAD. This PS experiment is great, since it takes little effort & doesn't interfere with my long-standing eating habits.

  345. tatertot says:

    I think what you are doing sounds perfect. The 4TBS of PS was my idea based on the amount the studies used. There is no basis for that amount in reality.

    I usually skip breakfast, have lunch at 11 of a big salad, no dressing, and about 1 pound of mixed, raw veggies–minimal lettuce, and a can of sardines. Dinner at 6 of meat, more veggies, potatoes or rice—followed up by 4TBS of PS mixed in with something like milk, a mashed banana, cool-whip, etc…and some berries. If I put sour cream on a potato, I’ll mix PS with that, too. I also have been alternating in some plantain flour in place of PS.

  346. Thanks @tatertot – I love your idea of making a concoction of different sources of RS… PS/banana flour/etc. After a few months of taking PS, I’m thinking of ratcheting things down to about 15 grams or so & coming up with a mixture. The more I think about this stuff, the more I think it can be a great weight-loss tool, because it certainly can help with satiety. I know for a fact that I can go much longer without eating. With that in mind, the trick would probably be to figure out the right amount and the best time to take it. More than anything, I’m very interested in the long-term prospects for RS.

  347. tatertot says:

    @Ron – I’ve been putting together a long-term startegy in my mind, also. I think RS is going to be one of those things, like Vitamin D or bone broth, that you commit to, but don’t sweat over.

    I plan on keeping in the 15-30g/day of supplemental RS range, seek out foods high in inulin and RS, and play around with timing. I’ll be doing this for a year before re-assessing. I want to see what my American Gut profile looks like, then get cholesterol/trigs checked around March 2014, while keeping an eye on things like weight, BG, energy, sleep etc… I’ve been very weight-stable for the last 2 years and don’t plan on making any other big lifestyle changes this year so it should be a good N=1.

  348. tatertot,

    Perhaps you’d like to consider Larch Arabinogalactan as part of your strategy. Please see “Larch Arabinogalactan and Intestinal Health” http://www.cpmedical.net/articles/larch-arabinogalactan-and-intestinal-health

    From the linked article: Larch AG has been shown to increase the production of short-chain fatty acids, particularly butyrate and propionate. It has also been shown to decrease the generation and absorption of ammonia in the colon. Additionally, research has demonstrated that ingestion of Larch AG has a significant effect on enhancing beneficial gut microflora, specifically increasing anaerobes such as Lactobacillus. A study was performed with healthy individuals to assess the effects of Larch AG on this population. Participants were given either 15 or 30 grams of Larch AG daily for 6 weeks. The results showed that ingestion of Larch AG for 6 weeks increased levels of the total anaerobic bacteria in the colon and significantly increased levels of the beneficial bacteria Lactobacillus. Fecal ammonia levels were also shown to decrease significantly.

    (Day 3 of PS brought room-clearing gas, and constipation – both quite unusual for me. Gas mercifully cleared the next day; still am uncomfortably stopped-up. This @ 10g/d.)

    AG is available in caps and as a powder. Best prices, Swanson. I’ve a tub on order.

  349. MsMcGillicuddy says:

    @tatertot: your comment about RS and weight loss in postmeno women. Bromocriptine, a dopamine agonist drug, is known to cause spontaneous weight loss in one population only: postmeno women. I believe Bromocriptine is prescribed for prolactin suppression, so there is a definite hormonal connection there as well. Once all the dots are connected, we can call in the entrepreneurs ;) LOL.

  350. MsMcGillicuddy says:

    My mother is a Type II diabetic who participates in online diabetic forums. She was telling me a couple days ago about a brand/type of pasta: Dreamfields, which is made with resistant starch and coated with it? such that it slows the digestion of the carbs and doesn’t trigger a rise in blood glucose….until of course, you put the leftovers in the refrigerator and then attempt to reheat them, in which case, this pasta then has the same effects as regular pasta. I thought it was interesting, anyway, even though the RS is likely the Franken kind.

  351. tatertot says:

    @KKC – Larch AG has been on my radar for some time. I’ve just been hesitant to buy any. The studies show it’s effectiveness at 15-30g/day, just like with RS and PS, but all of the supplements are like 1.5g or 750mg. I see you can buy powder at $12/250g, or about $25/pound. I don’t know if they use any fillers or unlisted ingredients, either.

    But, I think Larch AG is definitely a good prebiotic. I have been thinking about buying some and mixing it in with potato starch and banana flour.

    Ironically, Larch trees grow all around my house, in fact, I burn Larch in the Winter in my wood stove. One of my projects is to figure out how to make my own Larch AG.

  352. tatertot says:

    @MsM – I googled Dreamfields Pasta and this was the first hit: http://www.dietdoctor.com/the-dreamfields-pasta-fraud Uh-oh!

  353. tatertot says:

    FYI – Here is a good discussion of AG. I’d bet, that even though it’s found in lots of food, it’s probably hard to get more than 1g/day.

    http://www.raysahelian.com/arabinogalactan.html

    “Several vegetables and grains have arabinogalactans including tomatoes, carrots, radishes, and wheat. Arabinogalactans are also found in herbs including echinacea and certain mushrooms as reishi.”

  354. tatertot says:

    FYI on Tapioca Starch…

    Apparently, cassava, the root from which tapioca is made, contains high levels of cyanide. To remove this toxin, it must be processed as described here, probably ruining the RS value. But I’m not 100% sure–still a mystery to me!

    “Cassava (Manihot esculenta Crantz) is an important tropical root crop providing energy to about 500 million people. The presence of the two cyanogenic glycosides, linamarin and lotaustralin, in cassava is a major factor limiting its use as food or feed. Traditional processing techniques practiced in cassava production are known to reduce cyanide in tubers and leaves. Drying is the most ubiquitous processing operation in many tropical countries. Sun drying eliminates more cyanide than oven drying because of the prolonged contact time between linamarase and the glucosides in sun drying. Soaking followed by boiling is better than soaking or boiling alone in removing cyanide. Traditional African food products such as gari and fufu are made by a series of operations such as grating, dewatering, fermenting, and roasting. During the various stages of gari manufacture, 80 to 95% cyanide loss occurs. The best processing method for the use of cassava leaves as human food is pounding the leaves and cooking the mash in water. Fermentation, boiling, and ensiling are efficient techniques for removing cyanide from cassava peels”

  355. Have fun with your DIY Larch AG project, tatertot.

    The powder avail. from Swanson is USD11.99/250 g. No fillers nor additives at all. Hope my gut takes to it better than it has the PS! I might have been another one to drop out of study due to the discomfort from constipation.

    Best, KKC

  356. tatertot says:

    @KKC – Yeah, give that stuff a try, but don’t be surprised if it causes the same issues. If it does, I hope you take it to mean that you have issues with but microbes that should be dealt with! Don’t go the route of never eating RS just to mask the problems.

    I think the fact that you don’t tolerate 1TBS of potato starch, which is not that much, and just about the upper end of the normal SAD, says that you have some serious gut issues. Maybe just increasing real-food RS sources, ditching grains, eating things known to support gut health like fermented foods, bone broth, etc… Not sure where you are right now with diet.

  357. @tatwe & KKC

    My disposition would be to take like 25 T and go flip myself off in the mirror. Just how I am.

    Had an very interesting 4 days over the weekend where I was away and had zero supplementary RS. And then, reintroducing it. I’ll save it all for a blog.

    It’s coming. I am satisfied I’ve accounted for enough research and anecdote to procede. But it may not show up til next Monday (I don’t like to post the most important stuff end of week).

  358. One more N = 1 reporting in: after 3 weeks at 1-2 Tbsp potato starch/day, I have bailed. Constipation and low Bristol chart number days increased by 50% over a similar period in the preceding month, along with persistent enormous bloating that is becoming really annoying and uncomfortable.

    Per some comments upthread, I interpret these results as very useful information indicating SIBO–I never had all the common symptoms, but have had gut issues since early childhood (I’m now 58). Too bad, as it sounded like such a sweet deal to make happier gut flora. I have never made those guys happy : (

  359. @tatertot,

    Diet is pretty much between Rosedale’s recommendations and Peter/Hyperlipid’s model, with supplemental foods ala Jaminet & Jaminet’s PHD. Sufficient protein, high fat ~70%kCal MONO=SAFA avoiding PUFA’s purposefully, veggies galore. Unlike Peter I don’t (yet?) “HATE flavanoids (sic)” See: http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=36840063&postID=3993476679505023508 (Do go on to read the OP, if you haven’t yet.) Went on Atkins Induction many years ago for blood sugar regulation & serendipitously discovered profound mental benefits to ketosis; haven’t looked back except for a couple of forays into BSears’ (Hunger) Zone. No health issues at all, weight stable and just where I want it. Just adding the RS/PS to tweak/for fun . I learned of Larch AG years ago from D’Adamo, have taken it only sporadically, though.

    So, you suggest I “… have issues with but microbes that should be dealt with!” (You do have a way with a phrase.) I seriously doubt it, but I’ll keep your words in mind, thank you from me and the bottom of my gut. :)

    @RN:

    25 T? LOL I’d explode. Look forward to your upcoming posts. BTW, I was very fortunate that Watson’s _Nutrition and Your Mind_ was one of the very first books I read on food/nutrition. Tested as a fast oxidizer’s fast oxidizer, if you know what I mean. Saved me from a bunch of the cr@pola that’s floating around re: healthful diet. Enjoy your weekend ~ Best, KKC

  360. Still doing RS (and continuing with my 2 tbsp almond butter + 1 tbsp grassfed kerrygold + 4 tbsp PS … PLUS 20 gm of creatine … the result is very cookie dough-like (note: the creatine slightly degrades the flavor, but I’d guess no one else is going to add it in anyway).

    Now, one thing I’ve noticed on reading about resistant starch on wikipedia (here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistant_starch#Potential_health_benefits — this is pretty helpful link if you’ve not read it!) is this:

    “Kidney Health | The fermentation of RS2 resistant starch from high amylose corn increased nitrogen disposal and reduced blood urea concentrations in an animal model”

    I guess I also found the referenced paper for this, but it stood out to me because I recently had my blood work done via WellnessFX. While I’m happy to say that almost every marker was right on target for me, the two that weren’t were BUN (blood urea nitrogen) and a related ratio. Basically, too much nitrogen in my blood. That could have been b/c I had my bloodwork done the morning after a super high protein, workout day, or it could just be b/c I take in 200+ g of protein/day on average. Either way, I’m glad to see that supplementing RS may help reduce this … and I guess the only way to tell is to keep trying it for awhile and then re-do WellnessFX (another $150 … sigh).

    Not sure how I could really tell, otherwise, that I’d have an improvement.

    Regardless, it seems like it’d be good to get rid of excess Nitrogen — I wonder what the specific mechanism would be here … maybe the bacteria is using it somehow? Anyone want to speculate?

  361. “I was very fortunate that Watson’s _Nutrition and Your Mind_ was one of the very first books I read on food/nutrition.”

    I still have to blog on that.

  362. tatertot says:

    @KKC – So, it looks like your diet for some time has been VLC Paleo. In my mind, that is the worst diet in the world in term of supporting a healthy gut microbe community. Absolutely minimal resistant starch. The only thing gut microbes can be eating is the several grams of oligosaccharides provided by some of the veggies you are hopefully eating lots of.

    I guess there is always the other side of the coin–on a diet like you describe, maybe you don’t need a flourishing crop of gut microbes whose job it is to turn RS into SCFA and crowd out undesireable microbes populations.

    Thanks for giving it the old college try!

  363. tatertot says:

    @SMS – You should look into the American Gut Project http://humanfoodproject.com/americangut/ for $99 they will map out your gut microbes and compare them to other people/populations. Maybe you could learn something life-changing.

  364. tatertot says:

    @Justin – I mixed 2-3TBS potato starch with 3oz almond butter the other day–that was about as much as I could get it to take. It turned out delightfully doughy and very nice. I balled it up and put it on squares of 100% dark chocolate. Not a very low-cal treat, but it was pretty darn good.

    Interesting about the protein–something in RS for everyone, maybe. I hope you stick with it long term and let us know what happens.

    Here’s something interesting I just found. On Feb 9th 2012, my BUN was 26 mg/dl. Reference Range is 7-18. On April 4th 2013 my BUN was 21 mg/dl. So maybe there is something to it.

    In 2012, I was firmly LC paleo. I switched to high RS intake in Jan 2013. I will keep an eye on BUN as it seems to be a lab they automatically draw when you go in for an annual checkup.

  365. SteveRN says:

    Tater, FYI,if you just wanted to check your BUN, ask for a BMP (basic metabolic panel) or CMP (comprehensive metabolic panel). The BMP is one of the basic tests usually drawn for a checkup, but, as you check you glucose so much, I thought you might be the type to self test other lab values as you do you N=1’s.

  366. @ tatertot,

    Greetings. You wrote: I guess there is always the other side of the coin–on a diet like you describe, maybe you don’t need a flourishing crop of gut microbes whose job it is to turn RS into SCFA and crowd out undesireable microbes populations.

    That’s the bet! Have you read Peter/Hyperlipid’s series on FIAF? Here’s entry 3 of the series: http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/search/label/Fiaf%20%283%29%20where%20next%3F

    I do eat loads of veg,, yoghurt w/ live cultures and kimchi everyday.

    “Thanks for giving it the old college try!”

    Thanks for the kind words! As of this a.m. things are (ahem) going smoothly once again. I’ll finish the bag of Bob’s I have, don’t know if I’ll continue after that. You know, I’m surprised Paul was so quick to recommend PS as a PHD safe starch, as he seems to favor traditional/ancestral foods, and whole food supplements. Just my $0 .05.

    (The Larch AG is evidently being shipped by slow boat – not due ’til next Friday. Bother. ) Be well.

  367. tatertot says:

    @KKC – I’ve read the Hyperlipid series. In all of the countless things I’ve read on RS, the only people who ever discount it as unnecessary are low-carbers who just can’t get past the ‘carb’ aspect of RS. In all of the academic papers out there, you’ll not find a single one that says RS has no impact on gut health, specifically, increasing beneficial bacteria.

    It is very possible as we are seeing here, that increasing bacteria that feed on RS in ones bowels after a lifetime of giving them SAD (plus a few years of LC for many), does cause undesirable side effects in some, namely bloating and gas.

    It looks to me like you are taking good steps to maintain a healthy gut with lots of veggies, yogurt, and kimchi. You know, the whole premise behind my reasons for all this RS talk was to get people to see that there are alternatives to Hi-Maize, SuperStarch-type, and grain based supplements for RS if one should decide they want to try it out. There have never been any long-term studies in humans.

    As to Paul Jaminet’s recommendation, he added it to his list of supplemental foods and mentions using it in sauces, and put a link to some comments I made on using it raw. That was very smart of him–if someone tries it raw and doesn’t like it, they can blame me! In a few emails with Paul, I don’t think he will ever recommend 4TBS/day of the raw stuff unless a whole bunch of people try it out and have superb results.

    Thanks for the constructive comments!

  368. leo delaplante says:

    have been taking rs (potato startch )now for 1 week,,adding it to my morning shake,,as previously mentioned i have been using buckwheat in my morning shake for 2 months,,the day i started adding the extra rs as ps i had alot of grumbling going on my lower bowels,,it lasted only for 2 days,,,i am having even better bowel movements now than before and can tell the difference in stool composition,,will definetly continue…..

  369. tatertot,

    THanks for clearing up Paul’s PS recs; what you write makes sense. I hope that people who try the PS find benefit, and can only “blame” you for their improved gut health!

    Now that my bowels are happy again, I might just keep on with the PS, increasing the daily amount very slowly ’til I get to 2T/day. I’ve come across nothing to indicate that RS is an anti-nutrient, as MEades wrote (my reason for being hesitant with it – not that it’s a source of EEEK! carbs).

    Let the experimenting continue!

    Stay well, K.

  370. ilise says:

    can someone point me to the info on RS being antinutrient? Ive been trying to take the potato starch and finding it seems to interfere with my calcium absorption. I use calcium supplements for specific symptoms and taking the starch at any time of the day seem to interfere with my calcium uptake.

    thanks

  371. tatertot says:

    @ilise – There is nothing saying RS is an anti-nutrient. Dr. Eades made that statement in a quick dismissal of RS a few years back. There is no study or even casual mention of it anywhere else.

    In fact, I think RS is being looked at as a nutrient enhancer.

    You will find dozens of studies like this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8726244

    That say things like:

    “In conclusion, a meal containing 16.4% resistant starch resulted in a greater apparent absorption of calcium and iron compared with a completely digestible starch meal. If this finding holds true for the whole bowel, administration of resistant starches could have a positive effect on intestinal calcium and iron absorption.”

    That being said, your N=1 trumps everything that has ever been written or studied, IMO. It’s also possible that not all RS is created equal, even though most studies indicate that RS from native starches all does pretty much the same things in everybody. Potato Starch is used widely in RS research because it has a fairly consistent potency and is cheap.

    How can you tell that you are having calcium absorption issues, if I may ask?

  372. ilise says:

    Thanks Tater for reminding me of those studies again.
    If p.starch is not causing malabsorption then I suspect its causing better absorption of some other nutrients which in turn may be blocking the calcium.

    My symptoms related to calcium are very distinct (and personal =).. insomnia, peeling lips, and burning eyes. Took me years to figure out it was calcium but found someone else online with exact same symptoms; they recommended calcium and it worked within a day. Only problem is no matter how much calcium I take (has been years) my “deficiency” seems ever present-meaning I have to keep taking calcium to keep these symptoms at bay and taking other opposing nutrients will bring back symptoms.

    I suspect gut infection and/or gluten intolerance as I have gut symptoms as well as other deficiencies that are ever present despite long term supplementation.

  373. tatertot says:

    @ilise – have you looked into vit K2 and your calcium issues? Some internet weirdo wrote a lot about it the past few years: http://freetheanimal.com/?s=vitamin+k2

    This one probably has the most calcium related K2 stuff in it: http://freetheanimal.com/2011/11/unifying-nutrition-osteoporosis-and-atherosclerosis-may-be-linked-vitamin-k2.html

    Funny thing about K2 – everybody was talking about it 3-4 years ago. Everybody who read about it could see the benefits and started taking it or eating better K2 foods, but lately hardly anyone talks about K2. It’s like, “been there–done that”. I rarely see K2 mentioned on forums. I have been taking a K2 MK4 pill for several years and also eat the K2 foods like butter, kale, cheese, etc…

    It’s kind of like RS, you don’t really know if you are nailing it or not–in the absence of glaring K2 (or RS) related dieseases, you just gotta hope you are doing it right.

  374. tatertot says:

    Just have to add: Looks like Richard has come full circle.

    From his 2008 blog on K2 http://freetheanimal.com/2008/11/vitamin-k2-menatetrenone-mk-4.html

    A quote from Cordain: “herefore, it could be useful to include organic organ meats (such as liver) in your diet, to maintain a healthy gut bacteria flora by supplementing with a broad spectrum probiotic supplement when an antibiotic is needed, to eat enough soluble fibre found in vegetables and certain fruits (such as apples) and prebiotic containing vegetables (such as onions and garlic).”

    I wonder how much impact on K2 production by gut microbes RS provides. I’d bet it’s substantial!

  375. K2 is one of those supplements that I notice tangible benefits… great stuff. I’m frankly surprised that the mainstream hasn’t completely embraced it.

  376. K2 and D3 are my top 2 supplements to this day (I use the Green Pastures CLO/BO blend capsules, 2 per day). And like Ron says, it it the most solid in terms of noticeable results.

    RS might make the grade in my personal experience. That and seeing other anecdotes has been the only thing holding me off from upping the game in a series of posts.

    It will happen, though.

  377. “I’m frankly surprised that the mainstream hasn’t completely embraced it.”

    The mainstream is of yet wholly ignorant of it, with some exceptions on the part of the Japanese, but that’s all MK-7 which is super different from MK-4. Not that I really know, but it is way different in terms of blood level half life,

  378. tatertot says:

    Here’s a strange story about Vit K. My 70yo Dad had a quadruple bypass about 2 years ago. Recently I was talking to him about his health and what he eats, etc… I mentioned Vit K, and he said he has to avoid Vit K–doctor told him it would interfere with his heart surgery recovery. He said the doctor gave him a list of foods with Vit K and told him not to eat them. Here’s a similar list: http://www.cc.nih.gov/ccc/patient_education/drug_nutrient/coumadin1.pdf

    Apparently, when you are taking a drug called Coumadin or Warfarin, which prevents blood clots after surgery, you need to be careful not to take too much or too little vit K, how that translated into a doctor telling my 70 year old Dad to completely avoid Vit K for the rest of his life is beyond me. Gotta love the CW!

  379. @tatertot,

    Check out Natto, which is fermented soy (a Japanese dish IIRC). It is a big source of Vit K (I get confused which varietal — MK2 or 4). Anyway, this one Japanese doc did a bunch of research into it and apparently it contains some enzyme that dissolves bloodclots like nobody’s business (it’s “fibronolytic”).

    In other words, perhaps there’s something related to the doc’s suggestion about avoiding blood thinners like warfarin.

    Now, back to Natto and Vit K2 and gut bacteria … back when K2 was en vogue in the nascent days of paleo (though personally, it didn’t feel early at all to me at the time, which is probably why I went the birthdayshoes.com route in April 2009 instead of yet-another-paleo-blog … I digress), apparently I blogged on natto — and about how I should be eating it (I actually did try it a few times … it is pretty unusual stuff and not very appetizing!). All the relevant bits are here:

    http://www.justinowings.com/natto-another-fermented-food-i-probably/

    Just to whet your appetite a bit for how this all goes full circle to this RS post, here’s some of the salient bits I found back in March 2009 (via an interview I found with the aforementioned Dr. Natto):

    “Regarding the effects of natto,there are many anecdotes concerning its efficacy for stomachache, and flu, and for helping women give a birth. This is because natto has a high nutritive value and is easy for the body to absorb. In addition, natto has an antibacterial effect. In the old days, food poisoning was very common, and people used natto in order to prevent cholera, typhoid and dysentery.

    “Natto is highly antibacterial, and also contains di-picolinic acid, which suppresses O-157.

    “In a food dictionary of the Edo period, it is written that natto neutralizes poisons and stimulates the appetite.Neutralize poisons refers to an antibacterial effect. Recently, it has been found that natto contains di-picolinic acid, which suppresses O-157, and that natto has an antibiotic effect. Natto suppresses the growth of harmful bacteria while encouraging the growth of beneficial bacteria such as lactobacillus.

    “Obtaining sufficient Vitamin K2 is not a problem for healthy people, because they have a colon bacillus that is constantly producing Vitamin K2 in the alimentary canal. However, when people become older, or take medicine containing antibiotics, this bacillus weakens and produces less Vitamin K2. …

    More: http://www.justinowings.com/natto-another-fermented-food-i-probably/

  380. tatertot says:

    Cool stuff, Justin! Thanks.

    I really do firmly think that a well-functioning gut microbiome is the ultimate arbiter of our health. Whether potato starch is the best means to that end, we don’t know, but I think it’s a good start.

    I like that this whole RS business isn’t being presented as a ‘lose weight fast’ trick, but as a lost nutrient that should be included in our diet, based on 30 years of studies. It is highly possible that eating a really smart diet which targets RS and other prebiotics, such as cold potatoes/rice, fibrous veggies such as jerusalem artichokes and raw onions, and probiotics such as kefir and fermented veggies, will be sufficient in terms of a healthy gut, but I think if you can double your reward with something as simple as a couple spoons of potato starch, why would you not?

    I am loving the K2 connection here. I came across this fairly new article on gut health yesterday, while it doesn’t really talk much about RS, it does put together a comprehensive package of what a healthy gut means:

    http://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/5/1/234/pdf

    Everyone, and I mean everyone agrees that a healthy gut is paramount to good health, but nobody has a good action plan other than ‘eat lots of veggies’ which we know doesn’t work all that great. Maybe there is a better source of RS than potato starch, but until someone finds it–I’m sticking with it!

  381. SteveRN says:

    Tater,
    Warfarin is actually a Vitamin K inhibitor, it keeps blood from clotting. Eating things with extra K will cause the levels of Warfarin to be inadequate and your dads blood to clot easier, increasing his risk of developing a clot. Warfarin was originally, and still is, a rat poison, basically causes the rats to just bleed to death internally. Somebody decided to give it to people at risk for blood clots, now the most used medicine for that purpose. Does your dad take the PS? It would be interesting to know if the increased gut bacterial health increased K production enough to affect the dose of Warfarin he need to take to keep his clotting factors down. Not something I think he should try just to try, at least without running it by his MD, but, if he was already taking it, any effect that you know?

  382. tatertot says:

    @SteveRN – The funny thing is, Dad was on Coumadin for only about 3 months, but has specifically avoided Vit K, in all it’s forms, for almost 3 years on doctors advice.

    I haven’t talked to him about PS. He’s a pretty picky eater. A meat and potatoes kinda guy. He was a trucker for 40 some years, working nights, eating at truck stops, basically a recipe for bad health.

    I try to get little pointers in, sometimes he takes the bait, but he is pretty firmly in the grasp of his doctor’s advice.

  383. @SteveRN

    Which type of K — does this apply to K2? Wikipedia:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_K#Toxicity

    Blood clotting (coagulation) studies in humans using 45 mg per day of vitamin K2 (as MK-4)[27] and even up to 135 mg/day (45 mg three times daily) of K2 (as MK-4),[73] showed no increase in blood clot risk. Even doses in rats as high as 250 mg/kg body weight did not alter the tendency for blood-clot formation to occur.[74]

  384. SteveRN says:

    @Justin, Not really sure. If I recall from my reading, K1 is what is in most plant sources, and the body then converts it to K2, but, not 100% sure on that. I know in nursing school they drill it into you to educate your patient to avoid sources in the diet if on Warfarin. Usually, that is people with atrial fibrillation, or people with mechanical heart valves, as both put you at increased risk for clot development. I generally work more with medical patients and general surgery patients, not heart patients, so Tater, I wish I knew why your dad’s MD wanted him to keep avoiding K. I would think right after surgery you are at in increased risk for clot development, DVT’s, but once that risk period has passed, and the Warfarin is stopped, I don’t get it. Especially given what the Paleo community knows about K reducing the risk of coronary problems. But I doubt that is something the MD learned in school, or is promoted much in the literature or by the drug reps, the doctor would have to seek that knowledge out on his own. Most doctors are to limited on time as it is these days. Not sure why anyone is still going into the profession, I don’t think I would, and quite frankly, have discouraged a few people from doing it, or to at least think very hard on before committing so much time and money to it.

  385. Phil P says:

    Just chiming in with another ~2-week update,

    I have been consistent with 2tbsp of PS 1-2 hours before bed time:
    * Sleep is consistently deep and dreamy
    * Regularity very nearly achieved(1), with 3-5 “visits” per week (up from 1)
    * Blood glucose seems increasingly unrelated to PS consumption(2)

    A couple of footnotes,
    (1) Regularity might have as much or more to do with a serious magnesium deficiency (a common problem for T1Ds) than PS. Gains in regularity seem to track fairly well with the aggressive Mg supplementation I started a couple of weeks ago.

    (2) I hit a wall with weight loss, got sick with some kind of stubborn head cold, and experienced massive increases in avg BG all within the same weekend, almost 2 weeks ago. Since that time BG has been almost impossible to control tightly, regardless of what I eat. Oddly enough it was in the archived writings of Owsley Stanley, aka “The Bear” (here: http://highsteaks.com/carnivores-creed/owsley-the-bear-stanley/bears-words-of-wisdom/ ) where I think I found the answer. He insisted that protein consumption did not raise BG, EXCEPT under starvation. I don’t know for sure whether that’s true, but it did cause me to measure what I’ve been eating (which I never do) and I realized that for the past six weeks I have been eating less than half the calories I probably should be, usually less than 1100 calories on non-fast days (I’m 6’4″ and 260lbs). It’s a good bet this explains all three problems.

    So I continue to be satisfied with PS and plan to stay with it, but I will wait until these other issues are cleared up before changing anything about the regimen.

  386. tatertot says:

    @Phil P – Thanks for the update. So, no major gas problems at the 2 TBS level?

    I know what you mean about mixing protocols and then trying to sort out whats happening. I spent a couple years doing that when I first went paleo, but I’ve been in a weight-stable, health-stable state for about a year now with relatively few changes in the past year.

    Here’s a 6 month update:
    On Jan 1st this year, I switched from a carb-restricted (under 100g/day and little starch) to a Perfect Health Diet type of eating, basically just added a potato or big serving of rice to my normal day.

    From Jan 2012 – Jan 2013, my weight averaged 172 (I’m 5’10/47yo). My lowest weight in that time was 165 and highest 174. On Jan 1st 2013, I weighed 170. In the past 6 months, my typical morning weight has bounced between 170-173. Very stable.

    From Jan 1st until about April 1st, I was targeting RS through food only. I estimate I was getting between 5-15g/day. No gas, no changes to note. My FBG was a bit high (120), and sleep was a bit segmented–as usual.

    For the past 9 weeks, I have upped my RS intake to 30-40g/day by adding 4TBS of potato starch and some green banana flour sporadically, to my typical day.

    Almost immediately, my FBG dropped to the 95-100 range, sleep improved, and the urge to snack after dinner went away.

    My weight remained the same, maybe even trended a pound or two higher. This is not worrisome to me as I’m not restricting anything or feel I’m overweight, though, I do carry an extra couple pounds around mid-section. I have a belly most Americans would kill for, but body-builders would laugh at–if that makes sense. No six-pack, but no spare tire, either.

    Gas increased a bit at first eating PHD w/RS foods, then reached crescendo heights about 2 weeks after adding potato starch. The last 2-3 weeks have been very normal, some gas, but nothing that made me a social outcast or even got me in trouble at home…

    Regularity-wise, the addition of potato starch seemed to have the effect of being ‘the great equalizer’. I’ve been a once-a-day guy most of my adult life, and never had ‘issues’, but the last couple months have been different in a way that’s hard to accurately describe here. Consistency and oderiferous-ness have been incredible. It used to be I could close down entire wings of buildings by either clogging the plumbing or overloading the HVAC vents. I could also plan on reading the entire newspaper in one sitting. Now it’s like a couple minutes max and somebody can go in right behind me without having to ‘light a match’.

    My next big step is implementing a long-term plan. I recently started mixing 1TBS of potato starch in a big glob of sour cream to put on my lunch-time potato, which makes the PP BG spike almost non-existant (has to be good, right?), and taking a bit less 2-3TBS in my after dinner ‘dessert’ which is usually frozen blueberries, some kind of creamy liquid (milk, coconut milk, kefir), cocoa powder and potato starch mixed into a pudding-like consistency and eaten while watching Days of our Lives with the wife.

    I think I will titrate the evening dose down to 1TBS and keep a mid-day dose of 1TBS close by if I have something it will mix with. This should provide a total of 10-30g/day depending on RS foods eaten.

    I have been saying for a looooong time, that the best diet will eventually be a conglomeration of hard-core paleo and hard-core vegan. I think the addition of RS rich foods and a bit of supplemental potato starch gives a ‘pretty-good-paleo’ diet a vegan twist. The only thing good about a vegan diet is the huge fiber load–most of it is overkill, and even the wrong kinds of fiber, but it is still very gut-microbe-friendly. Go to any vegan/vegetarian forum and do a search for ‘why am I gassy?’ and be prepared to laugh.

    So, all-in-all, for me, I think that the RS experiment has been a game-changer based on sleep, blood sugar, weight, and bowels. My cholesterol levels had improved even before the added potato starch, so I look forward to getting more labs done this fall after a long time on potato starch.

    Later!

  387. Phil P says:

    @tatertot – I see I left out a few things, that’s what you get for dashing things off during microbreaks at work :-)

    I am 43, leaning toward endomorph with a heavy carriage, and at 260 (down from 285) consider myself about 40lbs overweight (BMI chart says I should be well under 200lbs, which is laughable, I hit 187 when T1D almost killed me the first time around, and I literally looked like an Auschwitz survivor).

    There is no longer much trouble with gas, except when I miss a bathroom visit for a day (which is happening less and less, thank God) and even then it’s not excessive. I haven’t had odiferous solid waste since going low-carb. Strangely, this was true even when I had sarin-gas flatulence during the PS “induction phase”.

    I know exactly what you mean re:abs. I was similar when I was younger and healthier. I was never “ripped” but was pretty strong, even though I never did any lifting—there was a time when my arms were as big as some guys’ thighs, and I could dead-lift an undressed Chevy 350 long block (~450 lbs) bare-handed. Maybe someday I’ll be there again (I’m doing Body by Science now), but I sort of doubt it, since I now fly a desk for a living instead of the honest work I did back then.

    I’m really hoping I can get everything else stabilized quickly so that I can evaluate the benefits of RS more accurately. I still have lingering doubts about whether I need it at all (sleep/dreaming is the only benefit with an unambiguous correlation right now). And I am sure at least some people here think The Bear was completely full of shit, but after reading the entire archive at the link I posted earlier I’m having a hard time dismissing his opinions, they just correlate too perfectly with my own experiences, and I’m not schooled well enough to judge him on the hardcore science side.

  388. tatertot says:

    @Phil – I clicked on http://highsteaks.com/carnivores-creed/owsley-the-bear-stanley/bears-words-of-wisdom/ and, holy crap! That’s a lot of words!

    I think a person could make a go of an all-meat diet, but I doubt many people could do it right. Same for vegans. Some people can pull it off, but most get tired of the gas and lethargy and opt for vegan approved Twinkies, french bread, and Pop-Tarts too often.

    I dabbled in a zero-carb, ketogenic diet for a while. Within 2 weeks, I was so sore I couldn’t do a single pushup and felt like someone had beat me. I lasted about 6 weeks. That is when I hit my lowest weight, but definitely not worth the cost to me, and it sent my FBG soaring.

    I could probably maintain at 10 pounds lighter than I am now, but it requires so much diligence and sacrifice, I’m not interested. It would be purely for vanity, anyways. I think when you are eating ‘right’ for your self, you will hit a weight that is sustainable and provides healthy lab markers all-the-while not feeling like you are ‘on a diet’. I am amazed that I have not counted calories or macros for the last 6 months and maintained my weight in a 5 pound band. That should be the goal of everyone!

    Exercise-wise, I have been doing only body-weight stuff for the last couple years. 3 times a week, I do a shit-load of pullups, pushups, and squats–never really counting, but I usually start out with a set of 20 pullups, then alternate in pushups and squats over a 20-30 minute session, while walking in between sets. It works for me and I don’t need a gym. I run 2 miles once a week in summer months, and walk 2-3 miles a day in the evening in Winter. It’s a super-sustainable program I came up with on my own. It will never results in Schwartznegger-like biceps, but I am only interested in the sustainable.

    For me, the RS/potato starch thing was kind of my ‘final tweak’. I think it put a nice finishing touch to the only area that was in neglect–gut microbes. Now, I’m willing to see where they take me health-wise, as it is now firmly in their hands.

    Here’s a pretty cool paper I found on gut microbes recently: http://physrev.physiology.org/content/90/3/859.full.pdf+html Stick in in your favorites on on your desktop and read a few paragraphs whenever you have time–some amazing stuff there!

    This is actually where I think the whole RS thing is headed: Any discussion of RS must be intimately tied to it’s effect on gut health. People know gut health is important and they will mostly see the wisdom of adding RS to their diet. However, it will go the way of Vit K…people will talk about it, then quickly lose interest when they find out it isn’t a magic weight-loss trick like the potato hack was. Just another boring way to be healthy.

  389. Phil P says:

    @tatertot – Yeah, and that was just Bear’s words, all the other comments had been stripped out! It took me a few days to get through the whole thing, and that was only because I skipped over the non-relevant bits.

    Bear insisted that his regimen would work for everyone, but I don’t buy that, although I agree with his assertion that most people probably fail VLC/ZC because they are doing it wrong. My experience is that very, very few people have the right stuff to eat such a monotonous diet long-term. I think I do, but I haven’t fully put that to the test yet.

    I have the opposite problem from you, machines are basically all I have available—there are no spaces large/tall enough for me to do proper body weight exercises. I was doing Convict Conditioning but I got sick of hitting walls, ceilings, and equipment with various body parts :-) I have done some running, 5Ks and such, but lawdy, it ain’t pretty. Ever seen an elephant run? It’s like that.

    Thanks for the link, I will check that out!

  390. leo delaplante says:

    tatertot can you explain the difference between potato starch and potato flour as it pertains to rs content,,,much appriciated

  391. tatertot says:

    From: http://community.kingarthurflour.com/content/potato-flour-vs-potato-starch-0

    “Potato Flour is heavy with a definite potato flavor made from the actual potato including the potato skin and will absorb large amounts of water because it has been cooked and contains the peel. It is not used as main flour in baking as it would absorb too much liquid and make the product gummy. Small amounts are used to increase water, hold product together and so on.”

    Potato flour is kind of strange in that it is cooked first. Cooking destroys almost all of the RS. Most other flours, especially the grain flours, are from ground up (milled) grains. It’s not starch, just ground up grain. Banana flour is not cooked, nor is Buckwheat flour–both a pretty good sources of RS, though neither is as high as potato starch.

    One food I wish I knew more about is tapioca. Tapioca comes from the Cassava root. Cassava starch is 80% or more RS–even more than potato starch! However, when they sell tapioca starch, it always says, “also known as tapioca flour”. Cassava is high in cyanide and they have to treat it before it can be used as food. Treatment usually includes boiling or sun-drying. Tapioca starch (flour) actually is cheaper than potato starch–I just can’t find any good info on whether it is still 80% RS as sold.

  392. tatertot says:

    Here’s another description of the difference:

    “Potato Starch and Potato Starch Flour are the same thing. However, Potato Starch and Potato Flour are different.

    Potato Starch is a very fine flour with a bland taste, that is made by removing the potato peel, made into a slurry and watery mix, then dehydrated to form Potato Starch. The Potato Starch is not cooked, thus it does not absorb much water unless it is heated. For example, it will make an excellent gravy if heated with liquid in a saucepan.

    Potato Flour is heavy with a definite potato flavor made from the actual potato including the potato skin and will absorb large amounts of water because it has been cooked and contains the peel. It is not used as main flour in baking as it would absorb too much liquid and make the product gummy. Small amounts are used to increase water, hold product together and so on.”

  393. leo delaplante says:

    tatertot ,thank you so much,,there was a suggestion to use potato flour on the PHD facebook site for rs content and it got me all confused as i was sure potato starch was the one to supp with,,i am using the starch everyday,,just wanted to make sure,,a thread on carbs by kevin lyons
    turned into a rs chat,,maybe you should visit the site and leave your input on rs for its members,,you were mentioned a couple of times on there for your rs knowledge…………………….leo

  394. Tatertot in the latest paleo hacks podcast, Paul Jaminet talks briefly about resistant starch

  395. leo delaplante says:

    rs is really getting media attention http://www.naturalnews.com/040722_healthy_weight_loss_food_cravings_superfoods.html they keep on saying cold pasta and cold potatoes are good sources of rs,but isnt the rs destroyed when potatoes are cooked and does cooling them after cooking restore the rs,,i thought rs bursts when cooked and is destroyed,,tatertot can you clarify,,thanks a whole bunch………………………leo

  396. Kayumochi says:

    “natto … it is pretty unusual stuff and not very appetizing!”

    Au contraire. You just have never had it served in all its glory (that being said, there are large parts of Japan where it was not traditionally eaten and still is not eaten today). I won’t go into all the ways the Japanese eat it but will instead give a few tips for non-Japanese: after you take the pack of natto out of the refrigerator place the contents into a small bowl , add a touch of shoyu and whip the hell out of it with a single chopstick. Watched a Japanese TV once that told exactly how many times to beat the natto for optimal flavor but don’t recall the number now; it was a lot. Maybe between 200-300 beats with the chopstick. This is important. It warms the natto and brings out the flavor. Otherwise it is unappealing, just as you say. You can add the mustard that is usually in the pack if you want. Sometimes I do. Sometimes I don’t. Japanese at that point may pour it on freshly cooked white rice and crack a raw egg on top but non-Japanese are usually more creative: avocado, hot and sweet peppers, fresh tomatoes, grilled onion, kimchee, black pepper and parmesan/blue cheese are favorites. In fact, it helps to think of natto as a fine, smelly cheese, which in a way it is.

  397. tatertot says:

    @leo – I love that article you linked…so much misinformation it’s funny, but all based on the way the author interpreted a really good study. The author makes all the wrong assumptions and even gets the name wrong:

    “Even more importantly, starch resistant foods and flours have been found to improve colon or bowel health, curb cancer, and prevent adult onset diabetes 2.”

    The study they are talking about is here: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/02/130219140716.htm

    “A University of Colorado Cancer Center review published in this month’s issue of the journal Current Opinion in Gastroenterology shows that resistant starch also helps the body resist colorectal cancer through mechanisms including killing pre-cancerous cells and reducing inflammation that can otherwise promote cancer.

    “Resistant starch is found in peas, beans and other legumes, green bananas, and also in cooked and cooled starchy products like sushi rice and pasta salad. You have to consume it at room temperate or below — as soon as you heat it, the resistant starch is gone. But consumed correctly, it appears to kill pre-cancerous cells in the bowel,” says Janine Higgins, PhD, CU Cancer Center investigator and associate professor of Pediatrics at the University of Colorado School of Medicine.”

    Dr. Oz did a show on RS, calling it ‘Resistant Carbs’ the whole time and also gave very bad advice on where to get it.

    The deal with ‘cooked and cooled’ foods is in the different types of RS. RS-2 is the RS found in raw potato starch. RS-3 is formed when you cook a potato, destroy all the RS-2, but when it cools, it crystallizes and re-forms into a retrograded RS-3 starch. Read this for more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistant_starch It’s all pretty straightforward.

    What amazes me is that EVERYONE, from researcher to reporter to consumer misses the obvious low-hanging fruit…just eat raw potato starch. It’s the highest content of RS you can buy, it’s cheap, it’s used as the control in most of the studies, it’s easy to eat, it’s about tasteless, it mixes well with everything.

    If there could be one point to this entire show I have been putting on, it’s this:

    If and when you decide that you should be getting more RS in your diet. It can be had from real foods, ie. cooked and cooled potatoes/rice, green bananas, dried plantains, and legumes. These sources may net you 10-20g/day if you are diligent about consuming them all every day. If you see a gap in your intake and want to ensure a steady supply of RS, then use raw, unmodified potato starch–it contains about 8g per TBS. Use as you wish to get however much RS you want.

  398. I might have to give natto a try. I’m sure they have it at a Japanese market nearby where I go for my ikura (high in K2 as well, but MK-4, not MK-7).

    I’m sure I did have it once, at like 4am in a bar in the Roppongi district of Tokyo where the girl I was out with ordered it up as some sort of drunk/hangover remedy, I’m sure. Brown, a bit slimy, and a raw egg yolk on top. Can’t recall how it tasted, but I am extremely bold with foods. About they only thing I seriously don’t like that I’ve tried is tripe, or menudo. Beatrice loves it. Orders it often in Mexican restaurants for breakfast.

  399. Natto is pretty rough and I generally eat everything (love tripe – in Pho or Roman style). Most high end sushi places have it. Be sure to ask because some places don’t put it on the menu for the Americans. It tastes like very strong blue cheese.

    It seems like 2 TBLS of Potato Starch in a glass of homemade kefir is damn near a perfect health tonic.

  400. @Richard

    Note that if you go to a Japanese grocer, you need to say it right … had a hilarious experience trying to find it back in 2009 or so — the lady was looking at me crazy when I kept saying something like gnat-toe. She finally figured it out and said, “Ohhhh gna-TOE!” Very soft gnat and very hard toe.

    Thanks to Kayumochi for the tips on how to prepare it via the whipping — I’ll have to try that next time I pick some up (which will be who knows when …).

  401. Elaborating on the “perfect health tonic” – it contains the healthy gut bacteria (kefir) and the nutrition they need to flourish in your gut (RS).

  402. Kayumochi says:

    Also, you can experiment and find a brand of natto you like best; they are not all the same. Some use smaller beans, others larger. I prefer the medium to small beans. Flavor varies according to brand as well. Don’t make the non-Japanese mistake and microwave frozen natto. Let it thaw either in the refrigerator and, like I said, whip the hell out of it to warm the beans and bring out the flavor but otherwise do not heat the natto but instead let the food you eat it with warm it further.

  403. Yea, Justin. That I have down after living there so long. There is no emphasis on syllables in Japanese (and that TOE is no exception—it’s always given the same emphasis no matter the word). Their egalitarianism goes that far. :)

  404. tatertot says:

    @EF – You are 100% correct about kefir+potato starch. Pro and Pre-biotics in one. I found a lot of studies during all of this where they are trying hard to figure out a way to package RS with probiotics such as kefir and yogurt–the problem is, the live cultures eat the RS. It is a challenge to pre-mix them as they then have a very short shelf-life and produce some strange gasses in the package. There have been some successes with frozen yogurt and Hi-Maize, the key is keeping it cold enough to slow down the digestion.

    This is one of those areas that since there is no money in it–nobody talks about it. I try to mix potato starch with kefir or yogurt every day.

    Another strange thing that occurs when you mix the two, the RS encapsulates the probiotic microbes and gives them safe passage through the stomach and small intestine, where many probiotics would normally perish. When eating yogurt or kefir alone, most of the probiotic microbes are killed by normal digestive processes–resistant starch protects them. This is a feature unique to RS, typical plant fibers do not have this protective encapsulation property.

    Look at this paper on how they are ‘micro-encapsulating’ pre and probiotics, and smugly know that you can do it at home with a spoon and a glass! http://www.intechopen.com/books/probiotics/encapsulation-technology-to-protect-probiotic-bacteria

  405. leo delaplante says:

    are the same flora found in the small intestine also in the colon,,if not by encapsulating the pro-biotics found in kefir milk and introducing them to the colon would that maybe cause a disturbence in that these pro-biotics might not be naturaly found in the colon,,,,,,,just asking……………….leo

  406. tatertot says:

    @leo – The small intestine is a place for absorption. There is very little bacteria present in the small intestine. The bacteria that is normally there is not the type found in the large intestine (colon). If bacteria from the large intestine gets into the small intestine, it is called SIBO, and very damaging. One with SIBO should not consume lots of fermentable fiber or RS as it will be digested by the misplaced bacteria causing further problems.

    Probiotics and prebiotics are intended soley for the bacteria in the large intestine. We generally eat too little prebiotic food to adequately feed the bacteria in the entire length of the large intestine. Probiotics, like yogurt, kefir, and fermented veggies contain live bacteria, but often these bacteria don’t survive the trip through the stomach and SI. The ones that do survive may or may not ‘take root’ once in the large intestine.

    One thing cool about breast milk–it contains Lactobacillus, a probiotic, and a unique oligosaccharide, a prebiotic. Galacto-oligosaccharide is similar to that found in breast milk, and I believe is one of the secrets to why kefir is so healthful.

  407. leo delaplante says:

    gotcha,,thanks

  408. Kayumochi says:

    Would 4 tbs of PS a day be enough “safe starch” to transform a LCHF diet into PHD?

  409. @Kayumochi

    Not really. PS is not really a safe starch as PHD defines it. A safe starch is a source of digestible carbs, the safe part just refers to a carb source without all the inherent problems grains have.

    PS is a resistant starch, only about 20% is even available for digestion. The rest does supply some calories, but that happens in the colon after being fermented and making SCFAs which are then utilized for energy by colonic cells.

  410. @Kayumochi

    If you want to eat PHD, you would add about 30% of your calories as carbs. About a pound/day of safe starches (potato, white rice, sweet potatoes, yams, etc), and about a pound/day of sugary vegetables (carrots, beets, etc)

    Since the tubers are calorically dense, a pound gives about 3/4 of your carb calories from glucose, and 1/4 from fructose and other simple sugars like galactose (assuming you consume a little dairy)

  411. tatertot says:

    I eat PHD-style. I would say that potato starch is good on days when you didn’t get all the veggies you were supposed to, but it wouldn’t replace the starch from potatoes or rice. I think if you eat a pound or two of veggies and fruit and a pound of safe starch every day, you wouldn’t need potato starch at all. Especially if a big percentage of the safe starch was eaten cold, and you had a lot of fibrous fruit and vegetables including raw onions, leeks, avacados, etc… On days when all you can seem to find is lettuce and bananas, potato starch is a good supplement to keep your prebiotics up.

  412. leo delaplante says:

    i sprinkled ps on my spagetti tonight to bring the g.i. down and tasted great..rice and corn flour noodles,i usually use truroots pasta (made with rice.amarath and sprouted quiona flour but the north american distributer ran out of it for the last 2 months,,costco had it till they sold out,,its made in italy) taste just like wheat spagetti http://truroots.com/products/truroots-ancient-grain-pastas/ancient-grains-spaghetti/

  413. Hey guys, I am new here and find the subject fascinating!
    I would like to ask you whether you find xylitol a possible alternative to resistant starch ? See here for example: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17995737

    I eat xylitol quite regularly and never thought about its fermentation in the colon. But the RS topic made me wonder if I can get the same benefits from xylitol …

    Thanks for feedback.

  414. tatertot says:

    @James – welcome! In the normal western diet, nearly all of the fermentable food that feeds the colon bacteria is derived from the FODMAPs, the ‘P’ stands for Polyols (eg. Sorbitol, Mannitol, Maltitol, Xylitol and Isomalt).

    People with IBS and other bowel problems are told to avoid FODMAPs, but most people don’t have an issue. One problem with getting all of your prebiotics from FODMAPs is that they are highly digestible and quickly converted in the very first part of the large intestine. Just eating real food, it’s hard to get more than 5g per day of FODMAPs, so it’s only a fraction of what’s needed to feed gut bacteria.

    FODMAPs along with RS is an interesting combo. The RS actually helps the FODMAPs travel further along the intestine than they normally would.

    So, I guess to answer your question, I don’t think xylitol should be a replacement for RS, but it is certainly a decent prebiotic. If you feel you want to get a bit more prebiotics, consider using some supplemental potato starch as well.

    The official recommendations for fiber are about 38g/day for adult men, it’s hard to get over 20g/day on a no-grain platform. I like to use potato starch to bridge that gap. Maybe try to get a feel for how much you are getting and use xylitol and potato starch to fill in the gaps.

  415. tatertot says:

    @James (or whoever) – Here is a good wikipedia article on prebiotics. It doesn’t specifically mention RS or polyols, but a good place to get a feel for prebiotics and why I say what I do about the general lack of prebiotics in the SAD and paleo diets.

  416. tatertot, thanks for feedback! I really appreciate :)

    38g fiber / day ? But say you eat a big plate of shirataki noodles, wouldn’t that be a big load of pure soluble fibers ?

  417. tatertot says:

    I wasn’t sure what shitataki mushrooms were, so I googled it and came up with this:

    Shirataki noodles are manufactured from tofu, a highly-processed form of soybeans, and a type of yam flour made from a Japanese yam called konnyaku. Both soybeans and yams contain soluble fiber in their cell walls. Undigested Shirataki noodles pass through the stomach and into the intestines, where glucose, vitamins, minerals and water are passed into your blood. The indigestible soluble fiber from the soybeans and yams, however, remains in the intestines to serve other functions.
    Fiber Contribution

    Shirataki spaghetti, fettucine and angel hair varieties deliver less than 2 g of fiber in a 4-oz. serving. They don’t meet the standard of 2.9 to 4 g for a good fiber source, but do contribute fiber to your meals or snacks. Women need at least 30 g of dietary fiber daily through age 50, and children should eat at least 10 g a day plus 1 g for each year of age. A serving of Shirataki noodles provides less than 13 percent of a 5-year-old’s daily fiber requirement and less than 7 percent of his 28-year-old mom’s recommended daily intake.

    Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/369525-the-fiber-content-of-shirataki-noodles/#ixzz2WLEK9w82

    A quick glance makes it seem shititake noodles are soy and a poor source of fiber, so not paleo for sure–what made you think they were full of fiber? Sorry if I missed something.

  418. tatertot, no no, these noodles are made of the konjac root. The tofu kind is just to make them more pasta like and are not an option for folks that do not eat soy. Look into the konjac root or “elephant yam”.

  419. tatertot says:

    @James – Ahhh, now I see. Does the type of noodle you get have a fiber content listing? I will definitely look into this when I have some time.

    I think that if you can find a way to get 30-50g of fiber per day, and include some RS-rich foods, you’d be in great shape. The only fiber that doesn’t seem to be so great is the insoluble typ–non-digestible seed husks, cellulose, and other fibers normally used for stool bulking. Even gut microbes can’t use those kind and are what gave ‘fiber’ a bad name over the last 10 years or so.

  420. tatertot, I do not eat insoluble fibers, I know it’s like having “sand paper” in your guts :D No thanks!

    The konjac root based noodles are PURE SOLUBLE fibers. 100g of the noodles amount to like 5 kCal … there is absolutely NO nutrition in these noodles in the common meaning. They are sold in packs with some water. The water smells funny but you can rinse the noodles and eat them just like that if you want (a bit chewy :D ) but you can also cook them and put them in some broth for example.

  421. I just re-read the nutritional facts on the label of the noodle pack:
    for 100g you get:
    – 5 kCal
    – 4g fiber
    – a little sodium
    – nothing else

    Now, when it says 100g of noodles, does that include the packaged water ? I do not know …

  422. I know, it’s Men’s Health but … here it is:

    http://www.menshealth.com/nutrition/high-fiber-japanese-yam-noodles

  423. leo delaplante says:
  424. Another self experiment on PS.

    I’ve only been doing 2-4 TBLS a day for 4 days. Couple observations:

    1. Huge decrease in appetite. Even when I am hungry, I cannot eat the same volume. Getting full, faster.

    2. WEIRD dreams with PS pre bedtime. The first one involved a zombie apocalypse, my college fraternity, and chicken parmigiana. Again, weird. I thought RN was crazy when he reported this but it has been my experience too. Dreams are also more vivid.

    3. More gas too and nice regular healthy BM’s (this is science folks, put on your big boy pants)

    I usually throw the PS in homemade raw kefir, raw milk, cocoa, and stevia. When shaken, this makes a nice chocolate milk-like meal replacement drink (which I was never really a fan of). I have a BG meter but no sticks at the moment and I’m on the fence about pricking myself to test the PP response. Not sure if I care that much.

    I don’t weigh myself but I can sense the body recomp changes from the large kefir intake over the past month or so. This gut microbiota is the real deal.

    Tatertot and RN – thanks for leading the charge on this.

    Tatertot – How confident are you that the Bob’s Red Mill PS is 78% RS? It seems that they would be jumping on this train if it was the real deal RS.

  425. tatertot says:

    @EF – I am 100% positive that Bob’s Red Mill potato starch is pure potato starch, made in an industry standard way that does not include heating it, which would destroy the RS value.

    Raw potato starch has been measured widely, using different methods. Test tube methods which mimic digestive processes usually place potato starch at 78% by weight. Ileostomy methods, where they measure the starch that gets through the small intestine undigested, in humans and animals, places the RS value of potato starch between 75-85%. I’ve never seen a study that shows less than 75% or more than 85%.

    There is no standardized method for measuring RS in a food. There are many papers and articles on the different methods, and the need for a standardized method.

  426. tatertot says:

    The reason Bob’s isn’t jumping on this, is that RS isn’t really on anyone’s radar at the moment. There’s no dietary guidelines, and no dosing info. Many who try won’t tolerate the gas. Many people don’t understand the importance of gut microbes.

    One of these days, mark my words, RS will be a household word. When it is, people will pay lots of money for weak doses, pre-mixed and made out of corn starch. National Starch, makers of Hi-Maize, will be laughing all the way to the bank. When that happens–spread the word that potato starch is a viable, and even better (natural, cheaper and more potent) than specially bred and modified corn starch.

  427. tatertot says:

    @James – good find on the konjac noodles. It appears the magic ingredient is the glucomannan in the konjac, a prebiotic. Seems strange that such a large serving only gets you 5g of fiber, though. Must be mostly water weight. Kind of proves my point that we need something to fill the ‘fiber gap’. It’s nearly impossible to get 30g of fiber a day when you exclude the insoluble types.

  428. @tatertot – Thanks again for all the leg work on the RS issue. I guess I figured if it was on Dr. Oz then more people would be jumping on it!

  429. @EF did Dr. OZ have something on Resistant Starch?

  430. tatertot says:

    http://www.doctoroz.com/videos/resistant-carbs-fight-cancer

    http://healthybodydaily.com/dr-oz-in-case-you-missed-it/dr-oz-resistant-carbs-list-of-foods-very-high-in-resistant-starch/

    His advice is completely crap. The only thing he got right is green bananas, but then he advises you boil and mash them. He talks about using sorghum and plantain flour in place of wheat flour in baking. All of his advice destroys the RS. He couldn’t even get the name right!

  431. Edward says:

    Tatertot, I read your exchange with Peter Attia. You seemed satisfied, but a big question comes to my mind. When he says,
    “It is worth noting, however, that one thing that separates UCAN’s product from other variants is the following feature pairing:

    1. It is very slowly broken down, *but*
    2. Is is fully absorbed.”

    The question is WHERE is it fully absorbed? In the small intestine? Or is it so slowly broken down that it makes it into the large intestine and is fermented like RS? I sent the UCAN folks an email and am waiting for their reply.

  432. tatertot says:

    @edward – I didn’t really want to press the issue with Peter A, but I think that SuperStarch is plain ol’ corn starch, turned partly into resistant starch through a process called retrogradation, where a starch is heated and cooled repeatedly (their patented hydrothermal process). If you mix regular starch with RS, the RS slows the digestion, and glycemic load, of the regular starch.

    Mixing 1-2TBS of raw potato starch in cold potato salad would have the exact same effect as SuperStarch. I can see why a company would want that secret to get out! Did you see the price of SuperStarch?

    There seems to be some misconception around starch/RS. Most starchy foods are composed of two different types of starch–amylose and amylopectin. High Amylose Maize is a special corn bred for it’s RS properties and made into a product called Hi-Maize. Regular corn is mostly amylopectin and fairly low in RS. Heating and cooling amylopectin starch repeatedly increases the RS with each cycle. The RS value depends on the physical layout, shape, and interlocking patterns of the starch granules moreso than whether it’s amylose or amylopectin.

    Potatoes and wheat are both approx 75%:25% amylose to amylopectin, but potatoes are 75% RS, wheat about 2%.

  433. @tatertot –

    Is there a “best” time to take PS? Morning/Bedtime/Food/Empty stomach?

    Advanced apologies if this has been addressed.

  434. tatertot says:

    @EF – I don’t think there is an ‘optimal’ time. I have been adding a heaping spoonful to the sour cream I put on my near-daily baked potato at lunch and 2-3TBS mixed with water, milk, kefir or yogurt right after dinner. My thinking is that the RS lowers the glycemic impact of starchy foods, so it is good to take alongside starch. Other thoughts are that RS is protective of any probiotic bacteria you are eating, so RS alongside kefir, yogurt, or fermented veggies would also seem wise.

    RS taken in the evening seems to have the best impact on sleep and on morning FBG for me. If neither of those are a concern to you, then just getting some extra RS, like from potato starch, whenever you decide should be fine. It’s all eventually going to end up in the large intestine and feed the microbes. Possibly spreading it out over the day is a good idea, too, as you will be sure to get a good sampling throughout your digestive system. Taken all at once, there is a possibility some of it will pass completely through. This is probably especially true when first starting out as you may not have the bacteria to support full digestion.

  435. Allison says:

    Just checking in– I am the 46 year old woman who HAD constant hot flashes. I am losing weight and keeping my hot flashes away! One other thing I have noticed with more time is that the frequency of passing gas has gone done considerably. Also, where at first I was slightly constipated NOW better than ever in my whole life. I have tried to dramatically increase my vegetables and this last week I have been able to enjoy a cup of potatoes or sweet potatoes with my dinner. I have been able to eat carrots and beets. Carbs I used to be sooooo afraid of. Not any more. :) I have noticed that this has helped my sleep–along with no hot flashes. The adding of the potatoes has not changed my ability to lose weight without hunger. My goal is a 1 pound a week

  436. Jammie’s

    Over at PHD a number of people commented on having anxiety issues when too low carb. Look at the Q and A under the resource tab. also look at Paul’s posts on the dangers on very low carb.

  437. Ash Simmonds says:

    @tatertot and @PhilP – as to The Bear’s writings, I’ve spent a lot of time extracting and distilling them into their components, available here: http://highsteaks.com/carnivores-creed/owsley-the-bear-stanley/

    Nowhere near complete – and may never be – but I never get bored of it!

    I heard mention of feeling like shit within 2 weeks of VLC/ZC – that’s EXACTLY what he points out – the first couple/few weeks are crappy, but proper keto-adaptation realises amazing benefits. People who do “low carb” are effectively constantly on the tipping point between feeling great and shithouse – AKA The Zone Of Misery. Think of it like being half-asleep/half-awake – it’s difficult to function in this state – you want to either be fast asleep or wide awake.

  438. Phil P says:

    @Ash — I wish I’d seen that distillation sooner! I’m not sorry I read Bear’s comments in toto though. He was an entertaining writer, and many of his seemingly tossed-off comments contained a lot of interesting information (or at least claims).

    Most of what he wrote resonated powerfully with me. I do think I could sustain a ZC existence and thrive from it. I have been able to do so (consuming nothing but rare fatty steaks, ground meat, marrow, offal, bone broth, and pemmican) for a couple of weeks at a time before the pressures of social life force me to deviate. Any carbohydrate consumption seems to be an unavoidable slippery slope to pathological gorging behavior for me, and the only peace I have found from the hunger and cravings is through VLC to ZC eating.

    However one of Bear’s claims—that ZC produces no insulin response—is just totally wrong, in my own experience. As a T1D, I know precisely how much insulin is required in response to various foods, and to sustain my body generally, and it definitely isn’t zero! Worse, the recent onset of physiologic insulin resistance has my insulin requirements almost to pre-VLC levels. Am I missing something? Will consumption of even miniscule amounts of carbohydrate prevent one from enjoying the full benefits? This casts doubt on his other claims I wish Bear was still alive to answer! Maybe you can Ash? Do you follow ZC, and for how long? It seems like it is similar to veganism in that few seem to be able to sustain it long-term. Or is it really because most people are doing it wrong? Am I doing it wrong, based on my description of my ZC diet? I suspect Bear would believe so :-)

  439. Phil..

    http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(05)60565-X/fulltext

    “It is possible that the effects of fatty acids on glucose metabolism may be involved in the impairment of glucose tolerance after a low carbohydrate intake. In our study, the insulinogenic index decreased after restricted carbohydrate intake, which indicates that after carbohydrate restriction proportionally less insulin is released in response to the glycaemic stimulus.”
    —————————————————————————-
    Somewhat off topic question for low carbers or paleo who have included cooked potatoes into their diet, have you found that it increased weight gain any?

  440. Ash Simmonds says:

    @Phil re: The Bear

    “many of his seemingly tossed-off comments contained a lot of interesting information (or at least claims).”

    That’s one of the great things, in the last two years I’ve done so much research and there’s so much more semi-mainstream sources coming to similar conclusions, and each time I re-read him I spot new nuances of insight that he had probably 30-50 years ago.

    All this stuff there was written seven years ago, and his annoyance at the new [ CITATION NEEDED ] movement was palpable. He explained apparently from memory in fairly simple and understandable ways many complex subjects – but you have to get used to his black-or-white way of speaking – understand that he had “known” all these things for most of his life, therefore there weren’t many maybes thrown around, he wasn’t looking for answers – he proposed he had them and just wanted to impart it to those interested. Think about how adamant people still are with things like “you need X amount of sugar to run your brain” simply because they “know” this – difference is he actually independently researched all this long ago, and as it turns out, it’s only in the last few years that any real new evidence is coming to light.

    “one of Bear’s claims—that ZC produces no insulin response—is just totally wrong”

    There are several instances where I sit back and wonder what he’s on about, often it’s an interpretation of wording. Think of the bits where he goes on about ketosis and that on ZC you will never be in ketosis – this really riled a lot of people up, but further reading of recent stuff by Lyle McDonald/Phinney/Volek/Attia/etc shows what he meant (ketosis is a broad term) in how the body adapts. IE initially there is excess ketones, then the muscles use them, then the brain uses them and the muscles spare them. In the end he almost conflated trace/minimal as none/insignificant.

    I’m not sure the exact wording he used about insulin and ZC, but I’m guessing it was probably in the same vein, basically that the insulin response of ZC is so minimal compared to a standard “food” as to be inconsequential.

    “As a T1D, I know precisely how much insulin is required in response to various foods”

    He specifically talks about diabetes, basically calling T2 a self-inflicted malady and only considering T1 an actual disease. In this case of course insulin in the smallest amounts is hugely important, and I think he addresses that point early on saying to the effect that his advice is for the otherwise metabolically “normal” people who would have proper regulation of insulin production – if only they didn’t abuse their bodies.

    In the end though it might be helpful to think in extremes – the more poison (carbs) you get, the more antidote (insulin) you need. I know that’s silly, but if that viewpoint helps the analogy then cool.

    “I do think I could sustain a ZC existence and thrive from it. I have been able to do so (consuming nothing but rare fatty steaks, ground meat, marrow, offal, bone broth, and pemmican) for a couple of weeks at a time before the pressures of social life force me to deviate.”

    I’m in an interesting position right now, I spend my weekdays alone at a beach shack and I eat pretty much nothing but steak and eggs twice a day. I feel great throughout the week and all is good. On the weekends my girlfriend comes from the city to visit, and we cook up amazing extravaganzas. It’s all delicious and the gf is hugely into low-human-interference food, but it’s still fairly veggie-heavy stuff – and the next morning in bed all we can hear is my belly sounding like a volcano. I typically put on 2-3kg, and then lose it again during my meat-only weekdays.

    Actually last night’s Tweet is exactly that – http://twitpic.com/d0065o – “The gf is sneaking veggies into my meals. Luckily I make things healthier by wrapping them in bacon and soaking in butter.” :D

    “This casts doubt on his other claims”

    I don’t like to go down slippery slopes like this, I’m sure there’s flaws to his arguments somewhere, but I prefer to play the ball, not the man.

    Hell, if we all only listened to people who were never wrong, we’d all be completely ignorant – and Nikoley would be talking to thin air. :p

    “Will consumption of even miniscule amounts of carbohydrate prevent one from enjoying the full benefits?”

    I think this is contentious based on the person. Phinney/Volek certainly say that even small amounts can derail the keto-adaptation process, but it’s not an on/off switch thing like most neckbeards go on about. I know that I’m a hyper-responder, which is probably a good thing. I can put on weight like a mofo, and can lose it pretty easy too but only if I’m VERY strict. I have friends though who love their pasta and cake and everything else but are in better physical condition than me – outwardly at least – ie, they are still skinny.

    I think this is the big thing, my body rapidly tells me outwardly that whenever I eat something that’s not animal-based it’s going to punish me, and I think that’s what Owsley was getting at about himself when he mentioned that he was “prone to obesity”. I used to hate that I got fat so easy, but nowadays I consider myself lucky genetically – I’ve done blood testing of glucose/ketones before, and I did it with a skinny friend a while back when on a picnic we’d both consumed the same amount of alcohol/cheese/crackers/meat – my BG was 99, hers was 199. That freaked us out somewhat – that my BG was so “stable” and hers was skyrocketing past “diabetic” levels, but she’s skin n bone and eats lots of junk and I’m solid and a bit pudgy and eat 90% carnivorously.

    “Do you follow ZC, and for how long? It seems like it is similar to veganism in that few seem to be able to sustain it long-term.”

    Veganism is stupid – that’s a deluded moral concept/scam. I try to go ZC as much as possible – actually it’s easy when I’m alone because all I want when not being social is meat – but as mentioned earlier there’s social issues, and I just love me some potato and broccoli now and then. I’ve only been “on this path” for about two years, and I try to disconnect from the macronutrients as much as possible – as Kurt Harris puts it “there’s no such thing as a macronutrient” – all I try to do is eat as cleanly as possible, which means 90%+ of what I eat is fresh local animal product which itself had it’s natural diet, and the occasional local veggie product.

    Oh and lots of wine – from all corners of the earth. :D

  441. Ash:

    Thank you sir for that trip down memory lane. I read the entirety of The Bear’s long thread shortly after embarking on this journey, and used his chicken recipe many times.

    I eventually dubbed it “LSD Chicken” and it was the meal I cooked 12/30/08 when that day I did my one and only blog marathon where I did a dozen posts in a single day.

    http://freetheanimal.com/2008/12/lsd-chicken.html

    And here’s a later rendition, where he would not approve of the mashed taters along with.

    http://freetheanimal.com/2010/01/chicken-mashed-potatoes-gravy-and-how-bad-are-carbs.html

  442. Ash Simmonds says:

    Ha – I called mine “Duck with shit stuffed under it’s skin” – with some pics looking very similar to yours:

    Also mine would not be approved by Bear, we had sweet potato and brocollini. These are the sacrifices we make to have women in our lives. :p

  443. Alright, Ash. You one upped me. And what’s the damn car? I’ve owned Hummers & BMWs, currently an x5 with Phat 315s on the rear, 275s front, 20″ rims wishing I had gone with 19″ with just a bit bigger sidewall profile,

    Currently, Im enjoying the How It’s Made new series all Dream Cars.

    …when I lived in France, I brought over my ’86 Vette. Picked it up in Roterdam. I went to San Tropez almost every weekend. So fun to come back to where it was parked watching people ignoring all the German and Italian exotics, looking at my unique Vette,

  444. Ash Simmonds says:

    Heh, it’s a Lotus Elise 111R, AKA The Steakmobile: :p

    It’s kinda fun: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=espiLtHg8JI

    I don’t do the kid thing so cars with backseats aren’t on my radar, but if I had to do the front-engine thing a ‘Vette would definitely be up there on my list.

  445. Phil P says:

    @Ash — Thanks for that great reply, and also for the links on your site to other ZC resources.

  446. I’ve found evidence that resistant starch was discovered as early as 1908

    http://books.google.com/books?id=LJhCAQAAIAAJ&dq=raw%20potato%20starch&pg=PA34#v=onepage&q&f=false

    My guess is that these researchers weren’t even the first to discover this!

  447. I have been reading the blog posts on RS from time to time, and only some of the comments. I am wondering if anyone has experienced a sedative effect from the RS the next day. I did sleep very well after taking 4 tablespoons about 10:00 p.m., and also can’t seem to wake up this morning.

  448. A bit late to the PS party. But wanted to thank Richard on the blog and allowing tatertot to write about PS on your blog. Great open discussion, experimentation with results from others. Which help others with their experimentation. Still need to read more on PS[more of your and tatertot posts]. But Have Bob’s Red Mill Potato Starch on the way.

    THANKS!

  449. MsMcGillicuddy says:

    @MsM – I googled Dreamfields Pasta and this was the first hit: link to dietdoctor.com Uh-oh!

    I ran across more threads on this product today – many claiming it has far less impact on their blood glucose than “regular” pasta….and many claiming this benefit goes away when the product is cooled, then reheated….I am not particularly anxious to try this product, but do keep wondering whether the company is manipulating the ingredients somehow using a resistant starch. -

  450. MMG

    No, it’s all about the stupid LC dogma. They don’t even likely have a clue about any of this because it’s only about how many CARBS!!!! are on the label.

  451. I can’t quite get a clear answer about this: What about cooked sweet peas? Are they a good source of RS?

  452. Dave – NO.

    Sweet peas may have a little RS, but not enough to include them in a list of foods to eat for RS. They are bred for sugar, not starch.

    If you grew peas, and left them on the vine until they were dried, then they would have a lot more RS, like dried split-peas.

  453. Thanks tatertot. I appreciate the info.

    I’ve started to experiment with unmodified potato starch, not sure, but I may already be noticing a few improvementss in terms of appetite and GI health. I’ve been mostly Paleo for a while but would not be adverse to including some of the less lectin-y legumes occasionally. I think that’s the nest thing I want to research.

  454. Random Damage says:

    I am buying into this but help a Type 2 brother out….VLC controls the shit out of diabetes. I have a 5.1 A1c with it but am concerned about the long term effects of VLC as the solution for that. It’s quite the catch-22 though. I have started up with RS after seeing the threads on MDA and via Steve Cooksey’s experiments and links back to here. So, perhaps that is part of the answer but still I am concerned about adding too many carbs and altering my blood sugar as we all know that has its own set of consequences. Is there a general thought on what to shoot for in terms of acceptable carbs to avoid any of the pitfalls of VLC?

    What would be your (Richard as well as those here willing to comment) best recommendations on getting reasonable carbs in while also expertly controlling the diabetes beast (without meds)? I would love to eat a more balanced diet in terms of fruit and perhaps some starches but am concerned to do so because of the T2.

  455. Sun~Rose says:

    Raw vegan here chiming in; what am I doing here?! Spammed in my email was still another doctor touting his newsletter. In his come-on, he mentioned a starch that doesn’t raise blood sugar. Our dear next-door neighbour in her 90’s has type 2. A few years ago she watched the dvd Simply Raw with us and let me make her food for 2 weeks. Even cheating (which she did) her blood sugar dropped to normal or near normal (depending on the level of the sneak!) and she didn’t need her insulin. Then she went back to her way of eating, and she was back on insulin So, I’m always on the lookout for what might help her. In searching, Your site came up. Does sweet potato have the right knd of starch because it is just yummy raw, sliced thin, marinated in e.v. olive oil. Are You saying that it needs to be heated to release the startch? Digestion wouldn’t be enough?

  456. I’ve been trying this for four weeks and last week at the doctors my fasting blood glucose was up from 111 in May 2013 to 117 now. My 120 day H1C is the same as last year at 5.6 (average 117). Interesting that my average is the same as my snapshot fasting level. Terrible dilemma since my digestion and IBS are improved. Me thinks that I’m putting too much fruit in my morning RS smoothie. Strawberries, blueberries and green banana. So today just one green banana, coconut milk, stevia, and cinnamon. Cinnamon is supposed to lower bg readings as well. Also cultured sour cream has no sugars and is a fermented food. It’s great in smoothies, better than yogurt. Anyway, the smoothie tasted a lot better than usual as well and was easier to make. So let’s see how the N=1 experiment goes.

  457. A one time fasting glucose is pretty meaningless., especially with the unchanged
    A1C. But I would get a glucometer to see what works for you if you really want to work on it.

  458. This is all very interesting and timely for me as a T2D since I have been LC/HF eating for afew months now and my fbg has been steadily climbing. That is a common enough experience as I understand it, with plausible ideas about the function of physiological insulin resistance via Peter D., but I am still a bit concerned about fbg readings that head towards 6.5mmol/l or beyond (118 and higher in US units), and which often don’t go down much lower than that post prandially ie after an hour or two. My last hb1ac was around 6 form memory. Other things don’t seem to be quite right for me with that away of eating.

    So, based on what I have been reading here I have started to great raw potatoes and look for local supplies (in AU) of potato starch for the experiment.

    I would like to suggest another potential source of RS for investigation, a plant which is Native to the Americas and has been used as a food crop for longer than maize in some areas – the canna lily
    (Canna edulis or Canna indica) Most of the other varieties seem to be edible too.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canna_%28plant%29
    Here’s an analysis claiming a high level of amylose http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19627148
    It is used in Vietnam to make glass noodles alternatively to mung bean starch
    http://cipotato.org/publications/program_reports/97_98/50canna.pdf

    I have been interested in Canna for a while as a food source, raw and cooked, and have some growing in a large pot but it’s too dry where I live to plant them out in the yard. I grated up one of the tubers this evening and looked at the starch granules under a microscope — they don’t seem any larger than potato starch granules, possibly because the plant is not old enough? Is anyone aware of a commercial source of canna starch?

    Craig.

    • tatertot says:

      I don’t know much about Canna, looks interesting. Funny, you are looking at American Indians and I am looking at Australian Aboriginees at the moment. Ever hear of Murnong?

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murnong

      Apparently this tuber was eaten in huge quantities by the first people in Australia and is full of prebiotic inulin, FOS, and possibly RS and others.

    • Thanks for reminding me about yam daisies. I was trying to get some plants or seeds through legitimate channels but so far, no luck. It’s a timely reminder because I heard this interview on the radio yesterday

      http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/breakfast/dark-emu-challenges-of-early-aboriginal-history/5361210

      Sounds like some interesting foods and practices detailed in that book, must get a copy. My wife is a grass ‘nut’ pardon the deliberate pun, and she is valiantly trying to conserve some rapidly dissapearing native grass species in our area that once would also have been food stocks, together with quite a lot of other seeds and plants eg many of the local acacia seeds are edible if properly prepared. It must be quite annoying for her to have a husband who wants to grow exotics like canna, olives, jerusalem artichokes etc. No yam daisies near here afaik but I would willingly plant some in our yard. I do have a bed of warrigal greens which are a fat leafed native spinach equivalent, probably a bit starchy

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrigal_greens

      I see there that Captain Cook pickled some of it, time to try a batch of warrigal sauerkraut.

      meanwhile the ‘pressure’ is rising a little on 2 tsp potato starch per day

      :)

      Craig.

    • http://tasteaustralia.biz/bushfood/wattleseed/

      I haven’t found a nutritional breakdown of typical wattle seed yet, still looking. Some companies here prepare and sell it as a flour for breadmaking etc. Aren’t there America species of acacia?

  459. Sun~Rose says:

    You all are great researchers: canna lilies (such beautiful plants) and Murnong. And why not just get rid of the diabetes. I did it with my next door neighbor making yummy vegan food for her. Here are some links for anyone who is tired of being diabetic: http://www.pcrm.org/health/diabetes-resources/the-vegan-diet-how-to-guide-for-diabetes

    Here is another, from tv: http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Diabetes/wireStory?id=2244647

    Then there’s Gabriel Cousens MD who also had people with type 1 diabetes getting better. His film is Simply Raw

    • Sun~Rose

      So, a few oysters, clams, mussels, maybe a few eggs and a few helpings of meat a week is going to make the difference between getting rid of diabetes or staying diabetic?

    • Hi Richard

      If it weren’t for the complications of our modern food chain such as contamination in handling, pathogens and a general lack of freshness etc, I would willingy eat _simply_raw_ meat and milk but I don’t think that’s what Sun~Rose really means …

      Sun~Rose – the kind of type 1 diabetes that would be ‘cured’ by that way of eating seems like an odd thing to me, very puzzling. If that were so then fasting might be even better. (Not reccomended for T1D!) It just goes to show that everyone is different. The best thing that ever happened to my diet in terms of well-being was accepting saturated animal fats back in and throwing the pufa, the wheat and most of the the fruit in the compost heap. Lots and lots of amazingly good changes from those simple ideas. Now I am just “tweaking” it.

      Any way of eating, + mcfa such as coconut or butter, +lcfa such as cacao butter or tallow, -pufa, -sucrose, -fructose, -cereal grains, -msg, would simply be a much better way of eating. Vegan or not.

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  7. […] Tatertot “Plantains/bananas were dried and stored throughout Africa, potatoes were dried and stored throughout S. America, corn was dried and stored throughout N. America. The inuits had ‘Eskimo Potatoes’ which were dried and stored throughout the Arctic.” link to freetheanimal.com. […]

  8. […] what is almost spooky, are some remarks from a later blog we did. In the Diabetic Mashed Potatoes blog, I made these claims, that at the time, were purely speculative on my […]

  9. […] starch’s main role is to feed the good bacteria in our gut, and subsequently, help to reduce leaky gut syndrome, improve allergies and autoimmune conditions, reduce colon cancer […]