Here’s the reference: Prepare for the “Resistant Starch” Assimilation; Resistance is Futile. It started off slow, rather as I’d expected, because: STARCH! (Fingers raised across face in the sign of a cross.) But, comments began picking up and even though the post is quite a ways down in the scroll, it’s what’s getting the most play currently. And now, those who began their own experiments are beginning to report in.
I’m tickled at the authoritarian poo-pooing here & there. Not fooled for a second, though. Disappointed? Maybe a smidgen, but I’m counting on the last laugh. I would have thought that the sciency folks out there would have at least taken up some well-placed clues before proclaiming the issue of Resistant Starch to be so much hype.
…I see things like “I have boatloads of studies on it.” I call absolute lying bullshit. They do not—at least not that they’ve carefully read (I can’t dismiss out-of-hand what I’ve read carefully on the matter, and I live by my own standards). I also suspect you are being lied to by them…just because it’s “obvious,” dontcha see? Nothing to see here. It’s “starch,” and starch is a “4-letter word.” Yea, yea; and bla, bla. “There’s no essential carbohydrate” (true, but bullshit, because every human animal on Earth eats starch and always has). “Grains simply aren’t necessary” (true, and thanks for demonstrating how you just lied…because this is not about grains—also a very poor source of RS). …Plenty more lazy dismissive bullshit where that came from, but you get the idea.
In the end, trust is the only thing that really matters—not your popularity, not your credentials, and not anything else. The root of the problem is laziness. I grant that allure. Once people start seeking you out, asking advice, commenting on your blog, it get’s easy to just play authority. Of course, there are certain things in Paleo we can rightly consider settled: avoid processed foods, refined sugars & grass seed oils, grains generally. You do have to draw lines, or literally everything is an endless open question forevermore, and nothing gets done because nobody can get off square one.
So yes, I agree: we do have a few things to be completely dismissive about. Resistant Starch, however, is not one of them. It’s not and not even close. The properties and potentials are too unique to do such a thing honestly. …Not if you want people to trust that you’re about the science and evidence and real benefits to real people in real life.
There are many areas that are not settled, yet. Dairy is perhaps the biggest one—running the gamut from pure ghee to plain old raw whole milk, and all in-between. Another is cured meats in abundance—like bacon, which I consider Paleo’s Original Sin. And more recently, the issue of “Safe Starches” has risen up, and it has traction for only one abiding reason: many people report good results. Many people report the resolution of nagging issues from LC / Paleo. This ought to be seen as wondrous. It’s often not. I have to wonder why.
Resistant Starch (RS) would be a corollary or category of Safe Starches (SS). And it may just prove to be the ultimate safe starch.
Here’s the Paleoish hypothesis roughly stated in my view:
- Not really knowing what everyone actually always ate, especially when starving and biding time to the next successful hunt or fish, primitive humans likely consumed a vast variety of plant matter available, some of which happens to be high in RS, especially the raw and the unripe.
- RS is very unique in that it does not get digested at all until it reaches the colon (large intestine) where it then feeds relatively starved gut bacteria, staved because the flora in the small intestine gets first dibs on everything.
- For example, a potato cooked in whatever conventional manner gets digested in the small intestine, the starch is rapidly assimilated, and spikes blood glucose; whereas, a raw potato does not get digested until it hits the colon and then, the starch provides slow energy, feeds bacteria that produce short chain fatty acids (SCFA)—a saturated fat—and only raises blood glucose to a moderate degree. Moreover, it only provides caloric energy at 2-3 kcal per gram, not 4.
- The regular feeding of the colonic, large intestine gut flora has a number of downstream consequences, such as lowered fasting glucose levels over time, attenuation of blood glucose spikes from rapidly assimilating starch (2nd meal effect), and satiation and improved weight regulation from the enhanced production of SCFAs.
The proposed self experiment:
- Eat a big russet potato in whatever way you want to cook it, but without any stuff on it other than salt, pepper, herbs, spices, etc. Measure your BG levels for the first 4 hours every 15-30 minutes (15 minutes is best in the 1-2 hour window for resolution and so you don’t miss a spike).
- Once back down to normal BG levels, take in the whole starch equivalent of the same potato, but in the form of unmodified potato starch (mix it in some liquid of preference, drink). Bob’s Red Mill Potato Starch
is dirt cheap and 4 tablespoons (about 40g, with 80% by weight being resistant starch and the rest, moisture) gives you a whole potato worth of starch load. Do the exact same BG measurements at the same times.
- Once BG settles out again, repeat #1, take the same measurements at the same time.
Predictions:
- You will have a significant BG spike in #1; way more if you’re borderline T2 diabetic or full blown. It will take about 4 hours to clear.
- You will have a small spike with #2, far less than #1 and moreover, it will clear in 2-3 hours.
- Repeating the #1 experiment, you will experience a significant “2nd meal effect” where the test you did mere hours before is far less spiky and clears far more rapidly.
- Should the foregoing results be your general experience and you decide to continue taking 2-4 tablespoons per day of RS in the form of Bob’s Unmodified Potato Starch, you will find your fasting BG gradually come down over the next month. Note that physiologic insulin resistance and elevated fasting BG is a chronic “issue” (because I simply don’t know if it’s a “problem”) amongst LCers and IFers, including myself and family members.
- And should you continue the experiment per the foregoing #4, expect to experience substantially increased satiation and fat loss over time.
Still with me? Then here’s “Tatertot’s” latest entry, via email.
~~~
Based on the comments and questions from the first RS post, I did a little more digging and learned even more!
It was known as early as 1922 that certain starches resisted digestion, however, the term ‘resistant starch’ wasn’t used until the 1980’s when scientists studying starch digestion re-discovered the phenomenon. Since the 1980’s hundreds of studies have been done on the actual mechanisms of RS digestion. Numerous papers and articles were written in the 80’s and 90’s, but the effects of RS seemed to fall on deaf ears. A resurgence of interest in RS in the early 2000’s led to more studies and more articles. It was almost universally accepted by the scientific community that RS:
- improved glucose regulation and better weight control,
- reduced constipation, irritable bowel syndrome, and irritable bowel disease
- reduced colon cancer risk,
- and reduced blood cholesterol and triglycerides.
Resistant Starch contributes to health in two main ways: Its low Glycemic Load and its ability to enhance the microflora of the large intestine. As a carbohydrate with virtually zero impact on glucose, it stabilizes blood sugar and insulin, leading to lowered fasting blood glucose and insulin sensitivity. The ability of RS to resist digestion in the small intestine allows it to serve as a food source for the beneficial bacteria of the large intestine.
The concept of ‘gut microflora’ is difficult to grasp. Paul Jaminet wrote about it here. There are thousands of strains of bacteria, with populations in the trillions, living in the large intestines of humans. Some bacteria are good and some are bad. Scientists are just beginning to map out the thousands of strains and optimal populations.
Generally speaking, though, we can say there are two basic types of gut microbes that we can impact with resistant starch: Bifido-bacteria and Entero-bacteria.
Bifido-bacteria are the good kind. When you eat yogurt or sauerkraut for its probiotic strains of microbes, you are ingesting Bifido-bacteria. Bifido-bacteria comprise 90% of the gut bacteria of breast-fed babies, but only about 5% of adult gut flora. [emphasis added: what are they “eating?”]
Entero-bacteria are the bad kind. Though many are harmless, some of the more well-known species are Salmonella, E. Coli, and Enterobacter, which is closely related to obesity. Some of these type of bacteria can release endotoxins and cause ‘toxic shock syndrome’. Many of these types of bacteria are also resistant to antibiotics, making them very difficult to deal with. Entero-bacteria can survive in a wide range of environments, even outside the body, and feed on many different food sources–sometimes resulting in extreme gaseous events.
Studies such as this one have demonstrated that ingesting approximately 33g/day of resistant starch lead to major changes in gut microflora in as little as one week and at 3 weeks, Bifido-bacteria strains had increased up to 10-fold from baseline levels to almost 20% of total gut flora!
An important finding of the above study was that the changes in gut flora varied between individuals, were reversible, and tightly associated with the consumption of RS. Gut flora changes that occurred during the 3 week study returned to baseline levels in as little as one week after stopping the consumption of RS.
Also of importance from this study, no significant changes occurred in fecal pH with RS and no significant detrimental effects were observed on bowel movement, stool consistency, or discomfort, indicating that RS at doses of 33 g per day are well tolerated in human subjects.
This study was done using RS from wheat and corn, mixed into wheat flour crackers. As wheat and corn aren’t smiled upon in the Paleo world, I have come up with a way to mirror these results and using a ‘safe starch’ to gain all of the benefits described in this and other studies.
Studies show improvements with as little as 10g/day and as much as 50g/day. Over 60g/day, no additional benefits are noted, but not harmful. The most common dosage seems to be 30-40g/day.
- Raw, unmodified potato (must not be pre-gelatinized!) provides nearly 8g RS2 per tablespoon.
- Green Banana/Plantain Flour is also a great source of RS at about 6g per TBS.
- Hi-Maize cornstarch seems to be a very good source as well at about 5g per TBS.
- Common cornstarch contains about 2.5g per TBS.
- White and Brown rice flour contains about 1.5g. per TBS.
- Arrowroot starch is a poor source with less than 1g per TBS.
Mix any combination of these starches to equal 10-40g/day in a smoothy, milk, kefir, yogurt, or just plain water. The sky is the limit, just be sure not to heat the starch! It must remain under 140 degrees to retain it’s RS characteristics. It may also be best to mix and match the RS sources for maximum benefit as studies suggest different RS sources affect different strains of beneficial bacteria.
~~~
Anyone have a Sous-Vide Supreme, the mini…or a home made knock off using the crock pot, temp probe, on/off switch hack? You are hereby enlisted. I have an SVS, so I’m in for sure.
First do the self experiment as outlined, because you need a baseline (that’ll take a day). And I want you to be convinced, so you’re all in. Then, repeat the experiment. Only, this time, instead of potato starch, you’re using another potato. You’re going to cook it sous vide for a few hours (2-3, probably). I’d suggest a setting of 130F. Word is the RS bursts and becomes rapidly digesting at 140, so 130 ought give a good margin for error. If it works, they’ll henceforth be known as “medium rare mashed potatoes.” I’ll use a food processor to make a purée and should the BG tests work, then, from then on, you’ll simply heat your cream and butter on the stove, and I suspect you’ll get a great purée mashed taters that even a diabetic can and potentially should eat regularly. The thought of LC panties in a bunch over that makes me giddy with delight.
I have not done this yet; and because I’m willing to put myself out there and risk being totally fucking wrong, least you’ll know I can be trusted, and that’s gold to me. So let’s do it and report results in comments. I’m gonna have to go get new BG meter test strips ’cause I haven’t pricked my finger in years and the ones I have are way out of date.
Imagine if you get the predicted results using the potato starch and then get similar results using a real potato, and it’s soft enough that it can be done into mashed potatoes & a Paleo gravy? And diabetics can have no fear and that it ultimately improves their BG regulation over time the more sous vide mashed potatoes they eat daily?
Imagine if it works. If it doesn’t, it doesn’t, and we move on. But I for one will not dismiss out of hand something that could improve lives on a few levels, simply because starch is a “4-letter word.”
Update: Well, unless someone has a better idea, doesn’t look like mashed potatoes from cooking at less than 140F are going to happen. I used the SVS 2 ways. First time, just a peeled potato in the water at 135 for about 3 hours. Used the food processor, some butter, cream, seasoning. Not even close. Yuk, actually. Tossed it. So then I took a potato and sliced it, vacuum sealed it, and put it in the same 135 for about 20 hours hoping that would be enough time to soften the fibers. Nope. Pretty much same result. There may be uses for potato slices like this in dishes, but not mashed.
Tatertot comments on the news:
@Richard – I wouldn’t say the sous-vide experiment was a total waste of time. I made some last night that turned out pretty good. Not as mashed potatoes, but as crispy potato slices.
I peeled and sliced a bunch of potatoes very thin. Heated water in a large pan to 140 degrees, took it off the heat and dropped potatoes in. I let them sit covered in the hot water as it cooled. After 2 hours, I drained them. At this point they were flexible and crisp. I chopped them into smaller pieces, seasoned with salt, pepper and cayenne. I thought they were very tasty.
These would make an excellent base for potato salad. I saved about a pound’s worth for my lunch today. I sprinkled them with vinegar last night and plan on eating them cold today in a couple of hours to check my BG afterwards. They remind me of German Potato Salad.
I call it a ‘WIN’.
Chuck Currie 
Cody 
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WoooHooo – I’m going to give the “supplement” version (Bob’s potato starch) a whirl – just going to do a straight up fasting BG test – then supplement for a week and retest. Will let you know how it goes.
Cheers
Great that you are sticking your neck out here, Richard. I think it will pay off in terms of shining some light on the benefits of adding some RS to a paleo diet. It will be awesome to see other people experiments and hear how they are getting their RS in paleo fashion.
I think the biggest argument against RS will be that it is unnecessary on a Paleo diet, because a Paleo diet provides all the prebiotics and dietary fiber anyone could ever need.
I’d like to head that off early in the comments:
From: onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-3010.2005.00481.x/full
“Dietary fibre includes polysaccharides, oligosacccharides, lignin and associated plant substances. Dietary fibres promote beneficial physiological effects including laxation, and/or blood cholesterol attenuation, and/or blood glucose attenuation’. Contrary to some earlier definitions, this description of dietary fibre specifically refers to non-starch polysaccharides, resistant oligosaccharides and analogous carbohydrates. It also includes RS, therefore RS may be considered a component of dietary fibre…
RS appears to function differently than more well known prebiotics (e.g. fructo-oligosaccharides); when the RS and fructo-oligosaccharides were fed together, the increase in faecal bacteria was greater than the individual increases observed when these two ingredients were fed separately…
It is thought that RS may act as a feeding substrate for Bifidobacteria in vitro and that it may provide protection to these bacteria in vivo as they travel through the upper gastrointestinal tract. In vitro studies have also shown that several categories of RS (including RS2 and RS4) may physically associate with several Bifidobacteria species protecting them from attack during food preparation and storage, as well as during transit through the gastrointestinal tract. Because of these protective effects, RS may be described as a ‘culture protagonist’ and RS has been combined with Bifidobacteria in yoghurt. ”
I think it has been demonstrated pretty clearly in the studies that RS is currently considered ‘dietary fiber’ but shouldn’t be. RS is going to be hard to pin down in legislation because the RS content of a single food item can change several times as the item is cooked and cooled.
Another huge blow to the ‘RS is just dietary fiber’ is the Australian Paradox.
“Even though Australians eat more dietary fibre than many other western countries, bowel cancer is still the second most commonly reported cancer in Australia with 30 new cases diagnosed every day.
“We have been trying to find out why Australians aren’t showing a reduction in bowel cancer rates and we think the answer is that we don’t eat enough resistant starch.”
Dr David Topping, from CSIRO’s Food Futures Flagship, said this is referred to as ‘the Australian paradox’.
These findings, published in the latest issue of The Journal of Nutrition, reinforce the fact that dietary fibre is beneficial for human health, but go further to show that fibre rich in resistant starch is even better.
“It’s not just the amount of fibre that we eat that’s important, but the diversity of fibre in our diet,” Dr Topping said.”
read more here:
“Dr David Topping, from CSIRO’s Food Futures Flagship, said this is referred to as ‘the Australian paradox’.”
Does it translate to New Zealand as well?
While I wait for my unmodified potato starch to arrive, I am going to add some really green banana to my AM smoothies…I know heating the starch changes its properties, but freezing it raw would keep it raw.(?) I’ve frozen unripened bananas in the past and watched them turn brown even in the freezer, over time, but assume that it is not from further ripening, but some kind of oxidizing? At the risk of sounding obvious, it’s just that it seems the RS is so temp sensitive. Thanks
This approach is the very essence of doing science. The existing facts hint at an interesting new possibility. A way to test that possibility is put forward and we experiment, being fully willing to accept that it fails completely. The results are evaluated and any newly proven facts are added to the pool. Repeat.
When people are attached to a particular conclusion before doing the experiments, they’re doing religion, not science.
Doing good science means living with the very real possibility that your current understanding of things, no matter how much you might find it comforting and “right”, might be entirely wrong. And, when that proves to be the case, adjusting your understanding of how things work.
J Wynia:
Beautiful comment.
I got scared while reading it. I hate to be wrong. But you are completely right. The really beautiful thing about the Internet is that this could actually set a new standard for science. Completely transparent and out in the open, people reporting on their own results and everyone deciding the validity for themselves.
A crowd sourced experiment, a common framework with each one in charge of running their own and sharing observations and/or modifications. No matter what you learn, whether it works as you project or not, it’ll be valuable. Very nice.
@MsM – I don’t know if freezing and thawing reduces RS. My initial reaction is ‘no’, but as a banana ripens, the RS goes to nearly zero. Frozen bananas turn to mush–could that be a type of artificial ripening? If they could be freeze-dried, then certainly the RS would remain, but slowly frozen and thawed–don’t know. You could cut out the uncertainty and use either fresh green bananas or something like wedoglutenfree.com/ green banana flour.
@J W & Richard – For someone to debunk the usefulness of RS in the Paleo diet, they’d have to show it worsens glucose control and disrupts normal gut flora.
To show that RS may enhance the Paleo diet, people just need to repeat the experiments done in hundreds of studies on glucose control and second meal effect, and report that it didn’t upset their digestion. Unless someone can do stool analysis at home we’ll have to live with that.
We have made no grand claims that RS leads to weight loss, cures Crohn’s, or solves the colon cancer epidemic, but all those claims have been made, and I think will prove to be true with widespread population size trials.
Possible Control experiment for sous-vide part :
Just occurred to me, because the sous-vide is a new variable that may introduce uncontrolled variation in the final outcome (eg how much really remains RS, how many cookers achieve the exact same conditions etc) a Control experiment just for that would be to simply make raw ‘mashed potatoes’ -it’s easy, just clean well a couple of medium potatoes, cut thin then mash in your blender after adding a tsp of warm cream and tsp melted butter. Add the rest per your preferred recipe after they’re mashed. Test BG as previously, after fasted test.
I just looked up old excel from when I was trying out variations on ‘potato hacks’ (totally different aim then was to look at mechanisms and role of fat) : raw mashed potatoes only increased BG by ~20 points over fasting, at least for me – but note that state of body was overfed on cooked potatoes back then (and I’m not in condition to redo as part of new experiment now).
Quick question. If we happen to really like raw potatoes, will those work just as well as the unmodified potato starch or other items you mentioned? If so, weigh and eat approx 50-60 gr a day, or something different? Thanks! This is all new to me.
Marie
If I recall correctly, your increase of 20 points is right along with tatertot’s from 4 T potato starch. In terms of the sous vide, one should expect that the RS is largely intact if they get the same rise for one large russet sous vide mashed as for 4 T PS.
BTW, I did a test tonight. Put two peeled taters at 135 in the sous vide. However, it was already 7.15 and didn’t want to eat terribly late, so I processed them at 9.15. Problem is, I tried to get fancy and did a melted garlic butter, added kefir to simulate sour cream. Yuk. Tossed it. So I have two peeled, sliced thin taters in vacuum packed bags in the SV and will see how they do at 12 hours. Should give me a chance to get test strips too.
Raw mashed? Never heard of such a thing.
Miralee. Yep, raw taters will work fine. 1 large russet ought to be about 30g resistant starch if I recall tatertot’s figures.
Type 2 diabetic with non-diabetic BG control here (last A1c was 5%).
I usually have a low carb shake of some kind most mornings because I can’t face food first thing.
At various times I’ve tried both the “Glucerna” and the “Generation UCan” resistant starch shakes – they both spike my BG into double figures – so much for the slow release carb theory.
I also have IBS issues that respond well to a diet that excludes insoluble fibre so I’m in no way convinced that fibre is essential for a “healthy” diet – for some people maybe, but I’m not one of ’em.
You guys can experiment all you like, but no way, no how am I gonna be experimenting with resistant starch again.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3435786/
CONCLUSION: Idiopathic constipation and its associated symptoms can be effectively reduced by stopping or even lowering the intake of dietary fiber.
What do you mean by “spike into double figures”?
“Idiopathic” (we have no idea of cause) and “can”. Quite a “conclusion.” The very, very, very vast majority of people on earth do just fine with fiber and it doesn’t cause constipation and moreover, most people can relieve constipation by adding fiber.
I will never understand the propensity of some to attempt to define best practices for all on the basis of exteme and fringe experiences of a few.
So you’re a zero carb guy, right Ray? Zero vegetables, zero fruit? Because, after all, we’re talking about 4 tablespoons of RS, the starch faction only of a single potato. Moreover, it’s unclear as to whether RS can properly be considered fiber at all.
I think the difference is this:
People usually don’t think soluble/insoluble fiber, just fiber (like in this study) – and without this differentiation the study loses all meaning, because it’s already pretty much well known that different fibers work on a human body in a different way – f.e. the favorite of all western governments (and breakfast cereal producers, which can since ~1970 sell what was previously trash or fed to farm animals) – wheat bran is from what I know mostly of the insoluble kind, which for humans is pretty much the same as eating sticks & twigs, while the soluble kind (vegetables, fruits) has been shown to at least not cause problems and possibly having benefits as long as it’s not eaten in too big amounts at once.
Great post on RS! I eat up to 4 tators for dinner sometimes after a WOD. RS just get a bad rap.
Jack
Cunt is a four letter word. Starch has six letters.
Oh! Carb! That four letter word. Doh!
Is this potato starch the same as potato flour? I bought a bag a few months ago (from the supermarket clearance aisle) with a view to using it as a source of carbs on long bike rides but I’ve not really bothered with it recently. If it’s pretty much the same then I’ll give this a whirl.
Lee
No, not the same. Potato flour is made from cooked taters. Tatertot went over it all in comments to the previous post so if you go over there and do a find for potato flour, you can read more about it.
@ J Wynia – Yes, this is a great test/experiment and I will be looking forward to reading all results. I so agree with you and take it one step further. Science, very much like religion, begins in its most purest form, but then can suffer the possibility of corruption through human nature/ego/psychology (whatever your favorite term) via its many forms. The only thing that survives the skirmishes is the truth, which arises after the war, LOL – let’s hope this war is a short one and we arrive soon at the truth.
Peace, brother.
Does eating raw potato = rs2
and processed/bagged potato starch =rs4 ?
Did someone say bifidobacteria?
I’m hoping that becomes a household term in the near future – as well as the prebiotics which increase bifidobacteria the most: inulin & galactooligosaccharides (eg, caloriesproper.com/?p=1348)… and apparently now certain types of resistant starch! (PMIDs: 21151493, 20516265, & 18543927). Exciting.
best,
Bill
only RS4 increased bifidobacteria. Was hoping the potato starch would too. =( doesnt look like it from the studies.
I have some of that stuff too, Bill, and have begun adding to the mix.
Here’s another weird thing. Don’t know if related but the first couple of weeks sleep was profound & deep and now the last couple of weeks has been reduced to an average of 4 hrs per night, and I’m not the slightest bit tired during the day. No idea if it will persist. At first a bit annoying because I’ve always been a good sleeper except on the very rare occasion. Then I just started getting up after laying a while, realizing I wasn’t tired at all, but perfectly alert and kinda wanting to get to work on something.
We’ll see.
Ilise
I’ll wait for tatertot to weigh in on that. Pretty sure both raw tater and tater starch is rs2.
@tatertot – do you mind sharing with us your method of drying the green bananas into chips? do you use a dehydrator? temps?
@ anyone: I have been enjoying some interesting reading this morning -anecdotal reports of diabetics who routinely use plantains to replace mashed potatoes and eat French fried plantains, etc.
Also, studies on certain gut bacteria and their likelihood of contributing to obesity or reducing obesity. It would appear the jury will be out on this one for quite some time? no books written yet as I can find.
Cool, eh, MsMcG?
It’s one of the reasons I was drawn to this. First heard about RS from tatertot back when experimenting with the “potato diet.” It was thought that cooling taters after cooking them formed RS, but it turns out it’s only a little bit and a different kind. But he kept at it and all of a sudden there’s quite a lot of science on it, many obvious benefits if it pans out, and nobody’s talking about it and in particular, LCers and Paleos…cause, you know, that 4-letter word thing.
thanks Richard.
I know that for me decreased sleep in not a good sign when it comes to my gut or blood sugar. Waking up early can be set off by carbs eaten before bed.
Also someone mentioned that the starch increased appetite..be just a bit cautious about this as it could be a sign of increased insulin production. I have this happen when I consume carbs that I am sensitive to -no matter how small amount of them I consume. For instance-white rice- even a couple of tablespoons will set off my insulin and drive my blood sugar down super fast= mild hypoglycemia=more hunger eariler and more often. Effect can last for a day before wearing off, meaning even if I eat a normal meal with healthy carbs -only veggies and protein- blood sugar will still fall too rapidly and I will need to eat more often and usually need a greater amount of carb content to retain energy.
Just had a chance to read that link about the “Australian paradox” (that’s short for “doesn’t jive with CW, so it’s a ‘paradox’ because CW is always right”).
Whaddya wanna bet that the CW association with fiber intake and lower colon cancer was never fiber at all and had nothing to do with scrapping the bowel clean, but was RS all along, and its promotion of beneficial gut bacteria?
Ilise:
Well, I’m going to be getting new test strips so I’ll know for sure, but in general I tend to know when I’ve overdone carbage in a meal because I’ll go comatose, a pretty sure sign of hypoG I think. However, in this entire milk, kefir, and now RS experimentation, not was have I felt the slightest bit tired, even after downing a quart of milk in one shot. Quite the contrary, actually.
I think it was last week sometime. I was out with some friends and had a what the hell moment, had a burger (with bun) and fries. Two hours later I can’t keep my eyes open.
I get the comatose sleepy feeling after a large load of carbs too.
For about ten years I monitored BG very closely sometimes up to 20 times per day. What I learned is that I could avoid the comatose reaction by reducing the amount of carbs (comatose was caused by swing from high blood sugar to low and in short amount of time) but discovered that even small amounts of “fast” or “bad” carbs would set off insulin to cause problems with sleep even if my blood sugar stayed in the normal range and I felt no reaction at all. Very hard lesson to learn because I wanted to believe that keeping my BG normal would prevent health/sleep problems. But even with normal blood sugar readings day in and day out -every meal- and hgA1c below 5 my sleep requires zero bad carbs to be normal. Like I mentioned before setting off insulin seemed to be more key than actual blood glucose numbers. Blunting the blood sugar spike with high fat or protein works only to a point for me, but cant escape the effects altogether
I wish there was an insulin monitor. I think that would be much more telling and valuable.
also wanted to mention that for me blood sugar reactions and problems with hypoglycemia have been made permanently worse after each course of antibiotics.
Hey Ricardo, I’m getting some indigestion when I drink my kefir and UPS at night. Have you noticed anything like that?
The difference between a *natural* poot and what I experienced the 2 days I was up to 4 tbs of PS was like the difference between a kid slowly letting the air out of a balloon for a laff and 24+ hours of Mt Vesuivus followed by 24+ hours of Krakatoa. Fart and depart was not an option; this PS induced gas was like it had been stewing in the sulphurous bowels of hell for the past millennia.
Kayumochi
Odorous?
Have you tried a lower dosage? Everytime I find a good prebiotic that causes some hell of gas I am usually rewarded later with better health and poo. My problem is once the gas goes so does the results.
Cody
Only if I’ve had a cocktail or two earlier in the evening. To the extent I keep things clean and particularly stay away from grains, I have little trouble with GERD. I’d just skip trying to take it before bed. Have it in the day, morning or whatever. I think the effect it had on my sleep I reported before was a temporary thing (no idea why, and there may be confounders anyway). Similarly, my current reduced sleep as I just reported in comments could be related to having closed down my business (see the ‘Burning Down the House” post) and feeling a bit like a ship without a sail–that will resolve as plans for future come together. On the other hand, the fact Im sleeping far less but not tired is highly attributable to both the high, complete, bioavailable nutrition I get from milk & kefir, as well as improved colonic gut flora and the production of SCFAs.
This is fun trying to figure all this out while resisting being foolish about any of it.
Richard..ok great its not blood sugar issues. Is the dairy you’re consuming grass fed? Grass fed dairy make me wake up early too plus gives me ton of energy. Fish oil does the same. I have to stay low on these two otherwise I wake up super early.
Posted by Indy
“At various times I’ve tried both the “Glucerna” and the “Generation UCan” resistant starch shakes – they both spike my BG into double figures – so much for the slow release carb theory.”
I agree 100%. For a type two diabetics starch is starch and carbs are carbs. Above a certain level, low for most all will raise BG to dangerous levels. The low GI approach was ripped to bits by the late Barry Groves and others. Look around diabetes forums and blogs and almost all the well controlled diabetic are lowcarbers 30 – 50 carbs per day. Only a small increase in carbs say twenty can take a lowcarbing diabetic on nil or minimum meds such as Metformin in to the danger zone.
To Richard
“What do you mean by “spike into double figures”?”
Some countries describe BG numbers in mmol/l if you multiply by 18 you get the American equivalent. A non diabetic fasting is usually around 4 – 5 mmol/l 18 x 4.5 = 81. When Indy talks of double figures she means, say 11 x 18 = 198 a place no one wants to go. At these BG numbers damage occurs.
For every percentage point drop in A1C blood test results (from 8.0 percent to 7.0 percent, for example), the risk of diabetic eye, nerve, and kidney disease is reduced by 40 percent. Lowering blood sugar reduces these microvascular complications in both type 1 and type 2 diabetes. Intensive blood sugar control in people with type 1 diabetes (average A1C of 7.4%) reduces the risk of any CVD event by 42 percent and the risk of heart attack, stroke, or death from CVD by 57 percent.
Source: DCCT/EDIC, reported in December 22, 2005, issue of the New England Journal of Medicine.
Ilise
Yep, raw mostly grass fed. They get hay and non-soy, non-corn grains (ie, GRASS seeds) at some points during winter. My looking into this suggests that virtually all dairy must be done this way or you simply don’t get economic production and besides, cows ought to do perfectly well on grass seeds since they eat them anyway when a field has tall grass that has gone to seed.
Kayumochi:
I’ve had that a couple of times. No idea the cause, but in both cases I recall, it resolved in spite of continuing the same dose. I think this is all too complex to try and figure cause for everything. Certainly if it became chronic there would be cause for concern. My immediate tendency, however, is to always try to push through difficulties like that, such as in fasting and getting cold hands & feet. I extended the fast even more. Problem resolved (until I got down to 175 and then I had a chronic problem). But that’s a story for another day.
Richard..you created a chronic problem from fasting? Please share. I am thinking about going on a long fast soon and Im the same type of person..I power through and overdo it.
“carbs are carbs.”
Eddie, this is a categorically false statement and it has zero to do with glycemic index.
Methinks you are doing what most LCers always do. Carbs are carbs and starch is starch. Accordingly, you are dismissive out of hand, understandably to some extent (largely _because_ of the bogus stuff about GI vis-a-vis diabetics), but facts are facts too, and the fact is that even if you get 400g of carbs, you are probably getting only 5g of resistant starch.
In plainer terms, you are not qualified to even have an opinion in this specific area. All you’ve done, sadly, is expose the fact that you are utterly ignorant about resistant starch and how it’s digested and is differentiated entirely from the kind of starch everyone is familiar with.
You can easily verify this with the experiment I propose. One a cooked potato with no resistant starch. One a raw potato (or the 4 T equivalent in unmodified potato starch), and you will measure the distinct difference. And that difference is what we are talking about.
ilise
No, I created an acute problem with fasting that I fixed by pushing through it. I created a chronic problem by dropping weight to 175.
I don’t want to derail the conver here, though.
I think what Richard is saying is that his Thyroid took a crap on him.
Once bodyfat % goes too low, your Thyroid gets a little worried and decides to take a vacation.
Richard, what was your bodyfat % at 175? Under 12%?
I know you didn’t want to talk about this. Maybe save it for a future blog post. I think it is a very important topic.
Also, Eddie, even a glucose tolerance test is a nondiabetic can acutely elevate BG to near 180. What I’m resistant to is the idea that a diabetic ought never have a significant spike in BG.
Also, if one is deficient in insulin, then that’s what injecting is for…replacing what the pancrease cannot do. Tatertot has already linked to studies where diabetics on 30g of resistant starch
1 don’t get much of an elevation in BG
2 experience improved fasting bg levels over time, in some cases significant, like 20 points on average (using our scale).
But, look, nobody’s going to force you to try it. I’m certain some diabetics will and will report their results anyway.
Cody
I am clinically hypo anyway. But, though TSH is elevated, both T1 and T2 test on the lower half of the normal range. Anyway, I had dropped the meds, I have never had classic hypo symtoms, and I have recently heard that the cold hands & feet are actually caused by something else (haven’t investigated). Also, this only happens in winter, never spring, summer, fall. Also seems to be related to alcohol and marijuana intake in my case (the latter being the most profound).
I would guess my BF at 175 to have been in the 15ish range, so certainly not too low.
This is a really good discussion!
I agree with everyone who says fiber is not needed in the levels recommended over the last 20 years. It almost seems to me that the only reason fiber worked at all is because it was inadvertently adding some RS to the mix, but the theory was that adding a whole bunch of insoluble plant fibers would bulk up the stool, making you more regular and your guts healthier.
The CW guidelines for dietary fiber intake are 20-30g per day. This is nearly impossible to achieve without supplementation. If I did manage to get 30g of fiber from a supplement like Metamucil or psyllium husks, I could easily do it with zero RS involved.
Mark Sisson did a good blog on fiber a few years ago, which I think still holds true: marksdailyapple.com/fiber/#axzz2ScaKPipl
“CW says Americans need serious fiber in their diets. And by “fiber” CW often means bran buds, whole wheat, psyllium husks – you know, sticks and twigs roughage. We’re talking that 1980′s Saturday Night Live bit about Super Colon Blow cereal. Let’s just say that the more sensitive among us, in particular, want to broach the question: “Is this really the best way?”
You all know from the Jaminet research, that tropical diets are considered among the healthiest and now when consider the types and forms of carbohydrate eaten by these populations (plantains, tubers, coconut), it’s becoming clearer.