A “LADA” Type II Diabetic Finds “Amazing Results” With Resistant Starch

It's only going to get worse and worse for the militant LCers. In fact, I'm going to end up being a better friend to diabetics than all LC doctors worldwide, put together. And, it's cheap & easy.

I love shit like this. I had a sense way back, when "Tatertot" Tim approached me. Knowing a bit of his background and current situation, I knew in my heart that he was totally sincere and had good reason to be. Arguably the best bet I've ever made in the health realm.

Here's Glen's comment.

I'm rather late to this party ... but thought I'd also add a "Type II-approved" stamp on the resistant starch idea...

I'm not just very Type II (Fasting BG and original A1c at time of diagnosis were both more than DOUBLE where they diagnose you at) ... I'm also what some call "LADA" (Latent Auto-Immune Diabetes in Adults) which means I have the insulin-resistance of a Type II combined with a busted-arse pancreas that produces VERY little insulin (like a Type I) ...

I haven't tested everything - but I tested RS with cold potato salad. Amazing results...

Half of one medium baked potato (generously covered in butter, cheese, sour cream and bacon) will normally raise my BG into artery-damaging areas - around 160 mg/dl (8.8 mmol/L for those outside of the USA).

But an entire CUP AND A HALF of cold potato salad (same batch of potatoes, chilled 48 hours and cut into a salad) and my blood glucose didn't rise above 125 mg/dl (6.9 mmol/L) in four hours of repeated testing.

Any diabetic, regardless of Type I/II/LADA should test these a few times to confirm if one or more of these RS foods is something you can add to your diet, because it sure offers a few more meal options if it works for you like it worked for me.

... and thanks Richard for pointing this out!

Read it and weep, LC Militia. Where is your honesty and integrity? The research began about 30 years ago. About 5 years ago, we got a bunch of poo pooing from the LC-Paleo-sphere. A shame. And to this day, to my knowledge, not even one single prominent LCish advocate has even suggested taking a closer look at Resistant Starch, all while lives are in the balance.

Double shame. On. You.

Comments

  1. Richard, my goodness! Since when have you joined the safe starch party? Forgive me for not keeping up to date. But people change their feet so often in nutrition world, it’s so confusing! I thought you were, well, er … forever mired in the ketogenic/low-carb backwater, your tiff with Matt Stone, CarbSane et al.

    But it’s pleasantly surprising to hear about your honest feelings. I too have come to my senses after a 1-year foray into ketosis/VLCing. You know what I found out: unless you’re an insulin-dependent T1 or T2 diabetic, there is no need for a ketogenic or LC diet. What you need is an 80-130 gram (which is still low-carb) diet. Reason: physiological insulin resistance which raises your FBG when you VLC. That 95-105 FBG goes down to 85 on a safe/resistant starch, relatively still low-carb 80-150 gram diet. The peaks are higher but it is basically a wash. In fact, you can improve your A1c by restoring your beta cell function, which seems to respond to safe/resistant starches. Me and others have raised our C-Peptides from under 1.0 to 1.2-1.5. As long as your fasting C-Peptide is over 0.7 or so, I advise all diabetics to consider low-carbing, not VLCing. My A1Cs under ketosis/VLC was 5.5-5.9; now they’re 5.0-5.3.

    High five!

  2. Hey, Steppe:

    I always love it when someone rings in and recognizes I actually go with what’s beneficial.

    Bagel diet? let me know. :)

    Seriously; yes, I agree: high carb in a Paleoish context is still LC by SAD standards and I think this is going to be a saving grace for a whole ton of people. For so long, the standard catechism has been: “Problems? Your carb intake isn’t low enough.”

    …And I never ever took Charles Washington seriously for a second, even when I was LC/VLC myself. The only thing worse than being completely wrong and then effectively trademarking your wrongness, is to be such as asshole about it.

    I’ve been wrong. There. That was easy.

    Steppe, one word of caution, though. Resistant Starch is not the same thing as Safe Starches, the term popularized or invented by Paul. Safe Starches are rapidly digesting starches like rice, potatoes, preperly prepared/soaked legumes (but I think Paul is no-no on legumes).

    Resistant starches are a special type of starch not digested by you, so has near to zero BG effect. It’s actually a kind of starch that is digested by your colonic bacteria and tosses off SCFAs in the trade which, in turn, blunt BG spikes from other carbs you eat, even just plain sugar.

    Search the blog for ‘resistant starch’ and dig in. Here’s a recent post with links to a bunch of previous posts.

    http://freetheanimal.com/2013/08/resistant-starch-content-of-foods-other-anecdote-and-miscellania.html

    Meander through, pass it around to the circles you get dizzy in.

    And cheers.

  3. Thanks, again, Richard for keeping up with these RS posts. On Paul J’s PHD look at legumes, I think he was way wrong to include them in the ‘Never Eat’ category along with sugar, grain, and vegetable oil.

    Not sure if you own the new PHD, but Chapter 20, Almost-Grains: Legumes, is devoted to beans–and his arguments are very weak to me. I think he would have been better off including beans as a safe starch, but giving strict instructions on how they should be prepared and which ones are better. He makes a good case against soybeans and peanuts, for those allergic, but to vilify every single bean was a huge mistake.

    I think properly soaked (fermented) then boiled and slow-cooked beans, especially of the black, red, and pinto varieties, are among the most nutritious and healthful of all the starches we eat. A combo of rice and beans can’t be beat for taste and texture–and it’s damn good for ya!

  4. So I’ve been doing the potato starch thing for about three weeks now. Before I started, my digestion was in pretty bad shape, and I hadn’t been able to do much about it, even with some presumably good probiotics. FBG high 90s, but didn’t spike much. I’ve been basically low carb since the late 60s. (When I was 15, and fat, I put myself on a meat and milk diet over a summer, lost 30 lbs., and have been LC for most of the time since. Haven’t eaten bread or sugar since then, almost 50 years now.) Lately in ketosis most of the time.

    Started adding the PS to my morning smoothies (coconut milk, avocado, MCT oil, matcha). Fartage was bad, bad, bad. Poopage also bad, for about two weeks. Then almost overnight both normalized. No fartage, good poopage, for the first time in months. Also, much better sleep (no waking up at 3:00 am, or if so, easily back to sleep). And definitely more vivid dreaming, which is kinda spooky.

    So this morning, after a night of way too much Chardonnay, I had a bowl of oatmeal with berries, with some potato starch stirred in. (Usually I have some bacon with the oatmeal, but not this time, or I stir some butter or coconut oil in to slow the starch digestion, but not this time.) Then about an hour later, a smoothie as described above. Two hours after the oatmeal and one hour after the smoothie, checked BG…91! That’s really good for me. I’ve been traveling for a week, so haven’t checked the FBG, but will over the next few days.

    So good digestion, check. Blood glucose control, check. Better sleep, check. What’s not to like?

  5. I’ve been trying the PS thing with my first meal of the day. I make a shake with Ice, a little milk, a little kefir, and half of a frozen unripe banana, and a heaping 1/4 cup of PS. The banana somehow makes the PS blend very smoothly and gets rid of most of that chalky texture and taste. I don’t have the supplies to test my BG, as I’m not diabetic, but I definitely feel a positive effect on my mood and I’ve been experimenting with eating beans again.

    Thanks Richard and Tatertot.

  6. And…just had a huge portion of beans at a dinner function. No gaseousness at all. This is really getting strange. How one small change can affect so many things. But I guess totally rebuilding your gut bacteria environment isn’t that small a change, is it?

  7. I’ve been downing 1-2 T of potato starch for the past two weeks either with kefir or just with water before dinner. I’ve never really had weight issues, but I was taking it for the prebiotic effect. The first week was a bit wild, but after that the TMI got much better. That being said, even properly prepared beans plug me up. Not sure what the deal is there, but I suspect I’m just sensitive to them.

    I haven’t experienced much difference with sleep. Vitamin d supplementation made that better for me, but I still usually wake up 1-2x a night. I’m hoping I get the solid sleep people report after a couple more weeks. I have noticed decreased hunger, though. Anyway good info in general. Thanks to Richard and Tatertot for all the work.

  8. I was just goofing around on Google Scholar and did a simple search for Resistant Starch and filtered it to 2013. Holy crap…dozens of new studies. I may never get any work done now.

    Also, found this book: http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=lTGyAAAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PA251&dq=resistant+starch&ots=Mn-mah7ool&sig=VlA4rXNSBPUKJ7Oq0M2x3OqjHiA#v=onepage&q=resistant%20starch&f=false

    $159 for an e-book. Wish I was rich.

  9. God I hate abstract-only teasers: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1750-3841.12165/abstract?systemMessage=Wiley+Online+Library+will+be+unavailable+for+approximately+4+hours+between+09%3A00+EDT+and+14%3A00+EDT+on+Saturday%2C+28+September+2013+as+we+make+upgrades+to+improve+our+services+to+you.+There+will+also+be+some+delays+to+online+publishing+between+25+to+28+September+2013.+We+apologize+for+the+inconvenience+and+appreciate+your+patience.+Thank+you+for+using+Wiley+Online+Library!&userIsAuthenticated=false&deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=

    RS contents of freshly steamed japonica, indica, and waxy rice were 0.7%, 6.6%, and 1.3%, respectively; those of rice pilaf were 12.1%, 13.2%, and 3.4%, respectively; and the stir-fried rice displayed the largest RS contents of 15.8%, 16.6%, and 12.1%, respectively. Mechanisms of the large RS contents of the stir-fried rice were studied. With the least starch hydrolysis rate and the largest RS content, stir-fried rice would be a desirable way of preparing rice for food to reduce postprandial blood glucose and insulin responses and to improve colon health of humans.

    Ingesting stir-fried rice therefore can reduce the postprandial blood–glucose concentration and insulin response, which benefits the health of diabetics and prediabetics. The large RS content of the stir-fried normal rice could also provide health benefits to the colon.

  10. It’s only going to get worse and worse for the militant LCers.

    A bit of hyperbole there Richard, no? You keep saying this yet one can eat low carb and still get plenty of RS via products like Bob’s Red Mill’s potato/banana/starches. After all you’re the one who championed this!?

    Additionally, I think it’s beneficial to cycle macros. I find I do best with a few days in the 150-200 g. carb. range and then a few keto days. I’ve been doing the RS (thanks to you and TT) on the higher carb days. If you look at my weekly average I’d be considered LC. Some weeks a VLC average.

    LC and ample RS aren’t mutually exclusive.

    Plus I think the regular keto days help marginalize any potential SIBO pathology/weirdness.

  11. Tim, how can I reach you? I can help you with full texts.

  12. Raphael S says:

    You hate the low-carb zealotry. Ok, got it.

    The less you associate it with carb-counting, the easier it will be to get it looked at seriously.
    So, why turn this into an US vs THEM debate? Why not just talk about RS without the false set-up of “you can only LOVE RS if you HATE LCarbing” you seem to be chasing…?

  13. Im glad to see diabetics have something new to try.

    I am a staunch low carb recommender because it does work for diabetics, in part that is why anyway.

    Just as you are now a staunch resistant starch advocate because you see it is working in your circles.

    It is possible for BOTH to be right.

    I use super starch which is the ultimate in resistant starch, and it also does not raise my blood sugar. I have employeed this in ketosis to drive my HIIT workouts to entirely new levels.

    Yet many low carbers would swear super starch is likely going to have some hidden boogeyman downside.

    One of the great fallicies I see so many blogs and authors in paleo making is that there can be only one, and only a “best” or even worse the word “optimal” approach.

    In fact there are likely many valid approaches to treating diabetes with diet. And all sorts of shades of grey in between.

    Low carb doctors recommend ketosis as its binary, its full on, so its pretty much going to work every single time, easy to understand, easy to measure, easy to track.

    As for the ketosis induced insulin resistance, I am rather tired of pointing this out but I see its mentioned in the comments so here goes. This is resolves in 3 days of 100+ grams of carbs. It is not a disease state such as insulin resistance. There is no permanent or lasting change on the resumption of carbohydrate. It does work very much against those who keto most of the time and then have to many cheat days in between…

    One of the bashes against keto is it limits starches and thus its hard to maintain. Its mentally trying. I think that is fair. I think its also fair to state if I could only eat my potatos cold I would truly hate that even in a fancy salad covered in butter.

    I have long recommended the PHD to people without any obvious metabolic issues. Its easy to follow, and works great especially for those who train hard. I think I am pretty open minded for a low carb advocate.

    And this resistant starch idea seems perfectly valid to me given my own experience with superstarch (I purchase palatinose, dirt cheap compared to UCAN).

    In short I think all this is to say its pre-mature to declare low carb dead when it so clearly blends so well with the life styles of so many and provides great effect.

    Charles Washington is not a low carb advocate, he is a religious zealot ignoring the teachings of even his own pope and is not representational of what a low carb diet should be.

    Myself these days have been enjoying more of a carbohydrate curve approach aka Mark Sisson. And while weight loss stopped, I am not regaining. Given I am down well over 120 pounds its pretty important to me I do not regain.

    One thing of interest in above, the raise in blood sugar after eating a cold potato smoothered in butter, cheese etc…. being minimal. I would like to see the person repeat the experiment fasting with a plain cold potato and no added fat or other food as fat would indeed represent a rather obvious confounding variable. The presence of fat reduces both insulin responce and glucose response when combined with carbohydrate or protein. A doubter thus could step in and say “Well you smothered it in butter, of course the insulin response was muted. That is what would be expected”

    Generally when you want to test a foods impact on blood sugar, you eat it simple and fasted.

  14. Tatertot- I understand that applying heat to/recooking PS can damage it; does blending it have any damaging effect, or can it be used in blended smoothies with full effect?

  15. A:

    You can cook rice on different ways, steamed, pilaf or stir-fried. Stir-fried rice have the least starch hydrolysis rate and the largest resistant starch content. So if you make steamed rice,and put it after in the refrigerator at 4 °C for 24 h followed by stir-frying you reduce the rate of starch hydrolysis and increased the RS content.

    Ingesting stir-fried rice therefore can reduce the postprandial blood–glucose concentration and insulin response, which benefits the health of diabetics and prediabetics. The large RS content of the stir-fried normal rice could also provide health benefits to the colon.

  16. @Amancay – Perfect explanation! Did you see the full text of the study on rice I linked above? I just got it and read it over. What an amazing discovery–in the best case, with Japonica rice, the RS went from .6% to 16% when the cooked rice was cooled overnight then fried in corn oil. I happen to love fried rice and make it often using coconut or palm oil. From now on, I’ll only use rice that has been cooled overnight.

    Someone correct me if I’m wrong; Japonica rice is short-grained rice, Indica rice is long-grained rice, and waxy rice is a short-grained rice also called ‘glutinous’ rice.

    Of the 3, Indica has the highest RS to start with and waxy the lowest. Stir-frying the cooled rices in oil results in about 16% RS for Indica and Japonica and 12% for waxy. To me, this is huge! Another simple tweak in my daily life and I can get more RS from real food. I have been looking at rice as a very low RS food, thinking it was a poor way to target RS.

    @A – Blending RS containing foods is fine, you won’t be able to destroy the RS starch granules. As you noted, heating is the only way to reduce the RS in most starch.

    @Danny – Good comment! Funny thing about SuperStarch, the hawkers of it deny vehemently that it is resistant starch, I think that’s because they didn’t want to tackle the real issue, being that resistant starch is very metabolically active. If they would come out and say SuperStarch works because it is resistant starch, people would quickly figure out that potato starch is much cheaper.

    There is another product used by bodybuilders called Myotropics ThermiCarb (http://www.amazon.com/Myotropics-Thermicarb-Unflavored-2-2-Lb/dp/B0093K8JSS) and at least they admit it’s RS.

  17. Raphael S.,
    I had the similar thoughts a while ago, I hate ‘us vs.them’ fights and there seemed to be no reason for it. Just plug away and eventually even the more ignorant people will get it.
    This is because I thought most bloggers had become updated in the recent year or two (I mean really, all the news alone about gut biome research) and only some ignorant commenters/readers were still afraid of the word ‘starch’ when it comes to resistant starch.

    Like you’ve said, VLC people can see RS as a fat if they take it alone (like unmodified potato starch) and it won’t wreck their VLC or even their ketosis state.

    But then Jimmy Moore tweeted and I just fell from the clouds.
    It’s just suspicion coloring perception and I say that only because this is Jimmy after all, who I still think is a nice guy and not someone fundamentally dishonest or a wing-nut.

    The suspicion regarding this unfortunately named ‘starch’ seems to be still alive and well and it is dangerous, it can cause confusion/misinformation and can prevent people from using something very beneficial, often those people who can benefit the most.

    So I see why Richard is framing it this way, he’s drawing attention to the problem……if somewhat colorfully :)

  18. Raphael S says:

    It was my mistake to see this then as these series of posts being just about the benefits of RS when – according to you marie – it’s ALSO about about simultaneously digging a deeper fictional groove separating LCers vs The Rest…hhhmmm can’t say I fully see how this helps honestly.

  19. Raphael,
    non mon cher. That is still according to you.

    According to me, what you see as groove-digging and ‘us vs.them’ is really just pointing-out an existing problem. So one way to see it is that spot-lighting that problem may help others avoid the dangers of preconceptions about resistant starch.

    Or of course I could be wrong, I don’t know the man’s mind. I just thought to add another perception since you are speaking of your perception here after all, are you not?

  20. Raphael S says:

    Fair enough I concede your point.

  21. Ah Raphael, you have set a new standard for civilized online discourse. On the ‘animal’ site no less.
    Either that or I am in charity with the world because you let me get away with what must have been my clumsy writing to begin with ;)

  22. Leaving aside resistant starch, there are a number of problems remaining with low carb.

    -Prebiotic mix – rs isn’t the only prebiotic, and a mix of prebiotics through a range of carb sources is likely required.
    -Protein and fats are, generally, poor sources of nutrition. You can eat a lot of avocado, nuts, eggs, butter, meat (particularly intestines) and still fall a *long* way short of even an average CRON’er’s nutrition level. Making up for this through supps is often an expensive and futile approach. http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/89/5/1543S.full
    -Anything below 150g (total), for more than 20-30% of total days, is seen as unhealthy dogma – except in lc palalaleo land – and for good reasons.

    A key nail in this coffin, for LC’ers, will be the humanfoodproject results.

  23. Wolfstriked says:

    Its having great effect for me also.I upped my amounts to 8tbsps per day and finally have some slight fartage but more important is my hypoglycemia,to which I have the worst in the world,seems very diminished.And now Tatertot is saying fried rice is better…….is this for realz!!! :)

  24. @yien – I think you are spot on…150g seems to be the sweet spot. Something to do with the fact that the brain requires 130g or so per day if I remember right. When the 150g are coming from starchy sources rather than sugary sources it is even better for you. I know a ton of LC’ers who are staying below 75g and getting nearly all of that from ‘cheat’ foods or added sugars. I fell into that trap for a while–poor sleep, poor exercise, and cold toes resulted. I now eat about 1 pound of rice, beans, and/or potatoes every day–didn’t gain crazy weight and feel better than ever.

    I don’t think RS is the be all/end all, but I do think it is a very important piece of the puzzle that paleo and LC in general has overlooked. In their frenzy to ditch carbs, they ended up creating a diet that starves gut flora.

    @Wolfstriked – Don’t get too carried away, now! 1/2 a cup is a lot of potato starch. That’s like 60g, most of the studies showed an upper effective limit of about 40g, beyond that it just passed through. I’d stick with 2-4TBS, eat lots of fried rice (!), and get lots of probiotics from fermented foods and kefir/yogurt. You may just have a total lack of certain microbes and all the RS in the world won’t plant them there.

  25. For me, personally, the 150g number falls out from optimal nutrition theory.

    Talk to any experienced CRONer and they just don’t see how you can get real food synergy, and hit all your micros, without getting a good mix of natural carb sources, at this level of carb intake (as a minimum).

    Playing around on cronometer is a quick way to confirm this. For example, I challenge any lc paleo advocate to hit all your micros (except for D3) with cronometer and be significantly under 150g (total) carbs.

  26. Wolfstriked says:

    TT,I figure the more RS the better chance to feed what little I have in regards to good bugs.And its just for now as I will go to 4tbsp per day in a week or so.Right now I am cooking up some rice and then will stir fry that up with chicken,olive oil and some veggies……am I really about to eat fried rice for health reasons??? :) For pro-biotics I could easily drink a quart of kefir a day as I love the taste of it.Will buy some tomorrow for sure.

  27. Apologies commenters and critiquers of the post. I took a couple of days off and this morning when I scanned through, it seemed the best thing to do was write a new post to clear the air about my thinking on low carb as “healthy lifestyle.”

    http://freetheanimal.com/2013/09/clearing-the-air-my-beef-with-the-so-called-healthy-low-carb-lifestyle.html

  28. Paleophil says:

    Steppe wrote: “unless you’re an insulin-dependent T1 or T2 diabetic, there is no need for a ketogenic or LC diet.”

    And even then it may not be necessary, as some of Richard’s commenters have attested and research has shown. I even commented about the research showing honey to be therapeutic for diabetes. Yes, honey!

    “The peaks are higher but it is basically a wash.”

    My peaks have generally been lower so far.
    High five back!

    @Tatertot: I agree with you on legumes. Some legume fruit pods and tubers are so low in toxins and so digestible that they are edible raw. For people who are not sensitive to legume proteins to avoid them just because they are from legume plants makes no sense to me. And there is also a wide range of toxicity and digestability within legume seeds/pods.

    That’s fascinating good news that the common traditional Asian method of cooking rice, stir-frying, produces high RS content. I haven’t seen so many things pointing to one factor since I first learned about Paleo diets. I predict lots more stir-fry recipes to come in the Paleosphere. :) Reduction of RS seems to be one of the biggest downsides to modern cooking and processing techniques.

    @Charles: Wow! That is one hell of a story! A 50-year LCer benefiting from potato starch. That should be the next comment highlighted by Richard.

    “How one small change can affect so many things.”

    I find that the best therapies do tend to improve multiple things, sometimes including unexpected health issues that I didn’t even realize were health issues (but had instead attributed to factors like age or genes).

    Steve W: “LC and ample RS aren’t mutually exclusive.”

    Yeah, I made that point to Richard and he didn’t argue with me, so I took that as a concession. :)

    Danny J Albers: “I use super starch which is the ultimate in resistant starch”

    Why do you consider it superior to unmodified potato starch as a source of RS?

    “Yet many low carbers would swear super starch is likely going to have some hidden boogeyman downside.”

    Yes, and I’ve asked them multiple times to provide supporting evidence without luck. If there are any boogeymen, I want to know about them.

    Isn’t it a contradiction to say that there are “many valid approaches” and then say that a single approach is “pretty much going to work every single time”? Am I missing something?

    Marie, Do you have a link to Jimmy Moore’s Tweet? I didn’t find it.

    Raphael S wrote: “Fair enough I concede your point.”

    Wow! It’s so rare to see such civility and humility on the Net. Kudos!

    @Wolfstriked: Wow! RS REDUCED your hypoglycemia?!?! The RS story just gets more amazing by the minute.

    @Yien: Good point on the micros. The advice to consume high doses of Mg and other supplements by LC advocates was always suspicious to me, even when I was doing VLC myself (mainly because I couldn’t find many carby foods that I could tolerate–RS-rich foods are my best tolerated so far).

    Man, this has to be one of the best comment threads I’ve ever read. Congrats Richard!
    I agree with the folks who want you to drop the LC-bashing, though I know that’s your style and what has worked for you.

  29. Paleophil says:

    I see that Richard already highlighted Charles’ amazing story! :)

  30. Wolfstriked says:

    Palephil,why are you fighting this RS find?Its very paleo afterall since our ancestors probably ate more uncooked foods.And it is amazing in that I can eat the PHD suggestions and not get the negative effects I was getting.You have no idea what bad hypoglycemia feels like.I am talking severe mood changes with a drugged out look that people notice.Trouble breathing is another pleasant effect and of course DA NODZ.You ever get the NODZ?? Man all I can say is that I wish it on no one.Plus its easy to take and not at all like the past things I have taken in good health….ACV that started to eat away my teeth or coconut oil that after 3 days of gagging I gave up on.RS….a simple couple of tbsps of a tasteless potato powder that washes down easy and massive improvement is huge man AMAZING!!;)

  31. Paleophil says:

    Huh? What are you talking about, Wolfstriked? I’m using RS myself. Have you read my previous comments?

  32. Wolfstriked says:

    LOL,sorry man I was in my self abuse hangover phase.,even though truthfully your writing looks slightly sarcastic.;)

  33. Paleophil says:

    LOL, I can see how it might look that way given the context of the flame-filled Internet and the no-holds-barred style of Richard’s blog. My high fives, praise and such might seem insincere, but the reality is actually the opposite.

    Sarcasm, mocking, personal attacks and flame wars are a dime a dozen on the Net. I see them as mostly a waste of everyone’s time (and I’m especially inept at using them, I’ll try to leave them to people who are more expert), though they do seem to generate traffic (and thus the critics usually only end up helping the blogger they’re trying to undermine). Stuff that helps real people in the real world, like Richard’s RS series and the constructive comments, is rarer and more precious and when it helps us fit together many pieces in the puzzle of human biology and anthropology, it’s especially fascinating.

  34. “Wow! It’s so rare to see such civility and humility on the Net.”
    I know, eh? But around here not too rare, people care to share info and to learn. Irony/sarcasm comes-in sometimes when it’s humor among people who know each other. Otherwise, the nasty kind just gets shut-out (‘shunned’ maybe? très paleo ;))

    yien, I’m going to throw a monkey wrench in this nutrition comparison for carbs.
    First though, disclosure: I’ve mentioned several times that most of my life I have eaten per east-meditteranean traditions (mama’s cooking), without the wheat (family genetics), at a carb load of about 100-150gm per day, because this is natural to me. This level is not by design for micro-nutrients or any other reason, it just results from my cuisine, so I don’t need to think about it (I’s lazy!)
    I allow it to stay that way because I think it’s good for veg ‘fiber’ and maybe a precaution for long-term for thyroid (it can’t hurt), but that’s not the reason I do it.
    Also, if I had known about inulin and RS when younger, I could claim wisdom now, but I can’t :D

    Micronutrients though are definitely the last thing I’d worry about when I go VLC,
    which I did periodically before the traditional fasting days and then later for fasting days I would do when I needed to work intense long stretches (and very lately, before fasting for dad’s tests).

    The reason I don’t worry about micros is that LC and even VLC diets are not hard to do right.

    They can just ensure three things: liver (a true ‘super-food’) once a week-10days, smoked oysters or other shell-fish, and k2 butter (aka pastured).
    On top of their usual meat, fish, eggs, whole yogurt/cheese, leafy greens, cruciferous veg and berries, they’d be more than covered for all micros.
    They also already have the ‘essential fats’ more than covered with olive oil, coconut oil, butters and fish.

    Heh, you could even add a couple tsp of honey 2-3 times a week without violating typical LC levels (and a VLCer , ie. 20-50gms, would have to ‘make room’ on a honey day with no berries and dairy).

    Richard’s crunched some numbers of typical vegan vs. liver at same calories (last summer, search ‘liver’) and there’s no comparison.
    Keeping in mind that every traditional diet, not to mention paleo, includes organ meats, then including liver is the ‘default setting’, I would think. As are the meats and veggies.

    If someone “just can’t eat liver, or shell fish”, the problem is not that “an LC diet is unbalanced”, it’s that they’re not doing a balanced LC diet – in which case yeah, they may have to supplement.
    It’s as if a vegan won’t eat beans, or an ovo-lacto pescatarian doesn’t like that fish part, or…you see my point?

    In the last year, with info about the gut biome bursting on the scene, the story may change because of the need for prebiotics as well as probiotics, where some of the prebiotics are only in starchy foods and with cancer/gut health, immunity and BG control being some three major benefits there.

    So the gut biome would be the only reason, and a very compelling one, that I could see to try on purpose to maintain 150gms or so from whole foods, assuming that’s in appropriate gut-loving ones.
    The micronutrients are not a real factor. At least for me.
    Meanwhile, for therapeutic LC diets, or even for preferences after all, supplementing RS works fine.

  35. @Marie – I’m starting to think also that with gut flora operating at full capacity, micronutrients are even less important as gut bacteria make many of the nutrients and also will be better at wringing them out of food eaten.

  36. tatertot, that’s really interesting. I wonder what our RDIs would really be, if we ate to keep the whole super-organism healthy.

  37. Paleophil says:

    Yes, Tatertot, I think the same thing, and my guess would be that our gut bacteria provide some of the nutrients we find it harder to get in our diet. Nature tends to have redundancies (see The Black Swan by N. Taleb), so it’s possible to get all of one’s nutrients from foods, but the bacteria can also provide some of them and it’s probably best to utilize both nutritious foods and the microbiome.

  38. Paleophil says:

    One example I noticed in the past was that all the people who reported getting scurvy-like symptoms while ZC or VLC said they had a history of gut problems.

  39. Paleophil says:

    Deficiencies in a couple of the nutrients the gut flora produce, folic acid and vitamin K, can result in some of the symptoms like anemia and easy bruising that the ZCers and VLCers reported.

  40. Paleophil, short and sweet, but a jargon translation please, what’s ZC? :)

  41. Paleophil says:

    Zero Carb. Some people try to avoid carbs as much as possible and call themselves ZC.

  42. tatertot says:

    CW doctors will tell you it is pointless to supplement K2. Textbooks tell them it’s produced in the gut. Maybe in the old days…

  43. Paleophil says:

    Right, RS appears to help explain why Weston Price noticed that modern refining and cooking processes were connected to deficiencies in “activator x” (K2), as these modern techniques reduce the RS content of foods and RS feeds gut bacteria which in turn produce K2, the animal form of vitamin K. Ideally, we would try to find a way to help our bodies produce K2, instead of relying forever on supplements. Foods rich in RS and other prebiotics appear to be one such way.

  44. MsMcGillicuddy says:

    I catch myself now wondering about the RS content of various foods/meals. I was in Trader Joes over the weekend and noted pre-cooked rice, frozen and sealed in packages, which one then nukes in order to heat and serve.

    Frozen hash browns as well….yes, these are processed and therefore, evil foods, but it seems they may have an element of RS to them? – speaking as the mother of a junk food loving teenager.

  45. tatertot says:

    I see things like that, too, now. Every notice a lot of the sprouted breads and gluten=free breads are kept in the freezer section? I think those little packets of prepared rice are probably loaded with RS compared to the traditional American way of eating rice. Frozen hash browns aren’t that bad if you look at ingredients, just some color preservative usually. I used to eat those every weekend–cooked in a pan filled with heart-healthy Mazola oil and covered in white-flour gravy.

  46. Spanish Caravan says:

    Tatertot, I think you’re right. Because when I do eat them, especially Udi’s, it seems that my BG spike isn’t as high as it should be based on nutrition label. The label is probably based on info before the freeze and the RS portion increase makes the carbs to be less than they are.

  47. I asked Dr Bernstein a direct question for the tele-seminar tonight about if resistant starches and probiotics are good for the low carb diet. Hopefully he will answer the question. I will let you know or watch yourself at http://www.askdrbernstein.net

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