Oh, what the hell. I’m having fun laughing my ass off at 5 decades of Abject Low Carb Ignorance. When are they going to stop harming people for the fun or it, or out of ignorance, or because tehy knwZ teh SCIENZEZ?
Here’s the comment. Test it for yourselves, but take note, Tim has been on a 15-30g dose of resistant starch for over 6 months, now.
I broke down and bought some more glucose test strips because I wanted to try it out after eating this:
- 1 cup Uncle Ben’s Converted rice, cooked and cooled
- 1/2 cup fermented black beans, cooked and cooled
- 1/2 a large plantain raw, cubed
- 3TBS Palm oil
Heated palm oil to almost smoking, stir-fried the rice and plantain cubes until browned, added beans until just warmed.
- BG prior – 83
- 30 min – 110
- 60 min – 98
- 90 min – 95
- 120 min – 90
- 150 min – 90
- 180 min – 89
This was a meal that consisted of 850 calories, 28.8g fat, 141.1g carbs, and 14.6g protein. I estimated the RS at 40g.
I didn’t pre-ingest any potato starch, my lunch that day was a can of sardines, a salad, and a handful of sugar-free chocolate chips.
The stir-fry I made would be an awesome base for any meat and veggies, I wasn’t really surprised with the results. My FBG this morning was 77. Not bad for a guy who had normal FBG of 130 while low carbing.
Laf.
marie 
Jeff 
R 
CDLXI 
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Funny, I just noticed something.
Discussion on this subject is taking place in the preceding post where the comment was first posted.
Meanwhile, discussion on the preceding subject is taking place in a post a few days back where that comment was first posted.
It’s an IQ test to find/follow these discussions – and Richard, it’s definitely not Hadza-neutral ! ;)
There was a show in one of the cable channels a couple of months ago where a guy lived by himself on an island for two months with no tools.
He would take root tubers and chop them up into slices. He would take the slices and put them on a rock and let them cook out in the sun for a couple of hours. These tubers where definitely partly raw.
He would take the nodes/eyes of the tubers and grow his own tubers. You really couldn’t tell a difference in the area that he farmed or preexisting island plants and trees. Definitely within one year you would not be able to tell the difference in areas that he farmed and natural occurring vegetation. The weather was ideal to farm the tubers fast.
People probably have been mini-farming tubers and eating them partly raw for a long time but there are no drawing in pyramids showing this and they mini-farmed right next to other plants. Therefore there is no easy evidence to draw quick conclusions about what earlier humans ate.
@Marie – I just look at the ‘Last 10 Comments’ sidebar and try to keep up, for some reason I don’t get emails on every thread even though I subscribed, or thought I did. More fun this way…I feel like one of those chess savants playing 10 games at once in the park…
tatertot, yep, definitely a savant :)
But I’m so glad you said that about the subscriptions, I was just telling Richard I had that problem too. I’ve been just checking back to about a week’s worth of posts in the evenings for responses. Same idea.
Los, that sounds interesting, do you happen to remember a title or key word for that show so maybe we can find it on youtube, if it’s there? Your point is well taken, can’t get broad picture of what they ate, but coprolites can be pretty informative for some things. Resistant starch for example.
I understand that the paleolithic ancestors of the humble coney (coinín in Gaelic) ate their own coprolites, one can tell from the ground down nature of their teeth – as they thought them “SOOOO lithic”.
Modern coneys are suing the Australian Government on the grounds that myxomatosis is a ‘neolithic agent of death’ caused by Wheat Production.
Perhaps Richard Adams (Watership Up) should inform them – in Lapine -that coprolithic starches are super-resistant.
Sláinte
RS and GERD. Dr. Eades has a new post which can be interpreted as the dark side of RS. One theory of GERD has it that one must avoid RS to cure GERD. I previously had severe acid reflux which was fixed by low carb. My own limited experience says my AR had more to do with fructose than with RS.
Clem – I’m not 100% convinced of what Eades and Robillard say about RS. Their theory is that any food eaten that isn’t immediately absorbed in the stomach and first part of the SI will be fermented by out-of-place microbes living distally in the SI, causing gas, back-pressure, and GERD, IBD, IBS, etc… While this may be true, not all fermentable fibers are created equally. RS is fairly speciic in what can ferment it. I’ve never heard anyone say, ‘cold potatoes (or rice) give me horrible gas’. I also think that the gas we see when first adopting a high RS intake is not from the RS, but other foods eaten alongside it that are feeding still thriving colonies of gaseous gut microbes. The beneficial ones eat all the RS and that leaves a lot of food for non-beneficial, gas-producing microbes which are eventually crowded out, putting an end to the gas in a few weeks.
There is a study on eating RS and psyllium. Eaten alone, they are digested in the first part of the large intestine, but eaten together, the fermentation site of the psyllium is shifted to the end of the LI. I’ll post it here in a bit.
That being said, someone with GERD, IBD, IBS, etc… has my sympathy and I give them a pass on trying anything they can to eliminate it.
Clem
Thanks for bringing that to our attention. Just skimmed as of yet and I’ll probably have more to say, either in Mike’s comments or here. Anyway, I don’t think RS is the issue, and I speculate that it corrects or manages SIBO over time. I’ve discussed this with Norm Robillard (who Mike hooked me up with when I began posting about RS—though an LCer to the max, Mike is an honest, good guy).
Two outaa-my-ass speculations:
1) View the trillions of bacteria in your gut as in constant, brutal war. Good vs. bad (to the host—us), to-the-death, winner take all. If RS primarily feeds the “good guys” (they’re amoral, after all), then you’re simply giving aid & comfort to your allies by feeding them. Or, they have such an evolutionary leg up anyway that simply cutting NAofD and adding RS helps them keep things in check as they’ve been doing for millions of years or, rectifying adverse situations.
2) Since it’s well known that bacteria glom onto RS granules and provide safe passage to the colon, why can’t bacteria too numerous in the small intestine “get on the bus” as RS passes through, and get taken to their intended place? I get the sense that those not really digging into the science see bacteria as just taking a bite out of RS, multiplying, etc. So in that context, it make logical sense that RS could actually proliferate small intestine bacteria and make SIBO worse. But that’s not what they do. They glom on, and all the while, stuff is moving through. So, by necessity, they are being moved further and further down the whole poop chute.
Make any sense?
For myself, a GERD sufferer since I was a teenager, the following:
1) Beer and pizza in college was BAD.
2) Wonderful baguettes and cheese, and that 1-2 aperitif before the noon or evening meal while living in France in the early ’90s was BAD.
3) I first did Atkins in 1991 (while in France). Cleared up my chronic heartburn like magic in days. Did it a number of times in coming years, same result. But I was never LC for more than a coupla months at a time.
4) Went on PPIs around 2000, was on them for seven years. They’re a miracle in the sense of virtually eliminating GERG no matter what. If you don’t know better, they become your best friend miracle drug ever because GERD is really fucking debilitating, especially waking up at night choking, because you’ve just aspirated stomach acid. But, this is where I went from just a bit overweight of 10-20 pounds to 70-80 pounds overweight.
5) 2007 I transitioned into LC Paleo, got of PPIs (there is withdrawal, and you’ll get nuclear heartburn). But, GERD gone and this persisted for a long time. Then it came back, eventually, but slowly, over time, even LC. At a point, everything gave me some measure of heartburn. Only difference was it seemed less intense, unless I indulged in pizza, pasta, beer, etc. Then, nuclear.
Those are the facts, I can’t say for sure why or by what means, but I have a few ideas.
1) Alcohol is a definite promoter for me.
2) A good 30 hour fast (which is also “LC” by definition) seems to reset things. So, if I’m diligent and do at least one 30 hour fast per week, it keeps heartburn well in check.
3) Supplementing RS (potato starch, tapioca starch, plantain four) over the last few months, 15-30 g/d on average—some days none in supplemental form—SEEMS to be giving me a more long-term corrective solution. I’m fully aware of my own “bright eyed” tendencies, so I am holding out for more experience.
4) I’ll post about this but always wanting to try something new, I’ve been experimenting with some of the new gluten free products out there, in the form of pasta and bread. They aren’t LC, but guess what? Two things different from the standard wheat varieties (and I must say, they are damn close in taste & texture): a) no heartburn, and b) no coma. Interesting.
Anyway, in all the anecdotes posted in comments here or in email from those supplementing RS, not one person has said their GERD got worse, or that they developed GERD. Based on the number of people who’ve purchased Bob’s Red Mill Unmodified Potato Starch using my Amazon links, there’s well over 100 and it probably represents less than half of all, since it’s easily obtainable in local markets and many have indicated that’s how they got it.
Well, more later, perhaps.
SIBO and Resistant Starch
Does RS adversely affect SIBO/IBS sufferers? Any SIBO folks out there who have been using RS?
Here is the study I just mentioned. Rats, oh well. jn.nutrition.org/content/129/11/2081.full
“There is evidence that the substrate interaction between starch and dietary fiber fermentation may occur in the large bowel and that the colonic microflora preferentially use the more easily fermented carbohydrates in starch, indicating a dietary fiber-sparing effect by starch. Just the opposite may hold true for the interaction of certain dietary fibers with higher fermentability and starch; that is, a starch-sparing effect by dietary fiber.”
Rich,
Mike Eades has in the past noted that he too has suffered from GERD .
I note that Mike & Yourself have an a priori interest in the subject of whether or not Res Starch can improve stomach & colon health.
I would, were I to have such distress. I’m so glad I do not.
Bonne chance & Sláinte
Purchased a Turkish yogurt drink just now that has live active cultures plus tapioca and corn starch added.Found that kinda funny.TT,what I think would really be eye opening is to do a test using glucose based drink,as in the glucose tolerance test,and see if there is any difference.The way your cooking the food and the food your using will alter this test considerably if most of the starch is undigestable.
Also Tatertot,there is a new Bob’s Red Mill PS in my store and I am unsure if its what I need.Here are two pics that slightly show the difference in the labels.I say slightly since its more evident in real life.Labels look the same but I am worried….
google.com/imgres?safe=off&sa=X&hl=en&biw=1920&bih=1028&tbm=isch&tbnid…
gianteagle.com/ProductImages/PRODUCT_NODE_226/39978005250.jpg
I understand that RS won’t kick you out of ketosis, but will it prevent you from going into ketosis if you are eating VLC and only supplementing with PS?
@Wolfstriked – I’m certain they are both fine, their stuff is made in different processing plants so you are probably just seeing that difference. As long as it’s unmodified potato starch you have the right stuff. Very interesting about the Turkish yogurt w/added starches–sounds like they are getting smart!
@BigRob – No reason it should have any impact on ketosis except to enhance it via the SCFA produced.
Leon
Mike & I have actually discussed it over email a time or two, going back. My dad ate Rollaides like candy when I was growing up. All four of his sons have the same problem.
good for you.
RS has to be cold or raw, yes?
i prefer warm & cooked. dont’ think cold & raw work so well w/ my digestion.
@Doc CG – Not necessarily. Did you read the post above? The recipe for stir-fried rice and beans was piping hot and had about 40g RS. Turns out that retrograded RS (RS3) retains most of it’s RS when heated back up.
Jeez,
I believe I was an 8 yr old when Mother introduced me to Potato Salad – a dish comprising cold diced potato, mixed with chopped scallions and parsley, drizzled with vinaigrette and accompanied by whole hard boiled eggs.
(She would be delighted to know she was upregulating my good gut bacteria.)
Maybe I’ll renege on my Texas Home Fries – cooked in ghee. I wonder if I have the guts . . . ? OTOH I might be developing an inner resistance. TheRapy ? Hmmmm. Decisions, descisions. Where is my damned bare bodkin? Kein quietus.
It was in London in my late twenties I discovered stir fry and paella. I later bought a Wok; his descendent is regularly used.
(I recently named that unknown Chinese restaurant proprietor HatTip. He is duly grateful for this honourable cognomen.)
Sláinte
A new study just published, might be of interest in discussion of glucose regulation.
sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0271531713001887
The product used contributes more calories to the Hadza diet than any other species (the baobab).
Rich
I saw yr exchange with Mike on his twitter feed.
I was left hanging in expectation after Mike’s last quip:
” Mike:@RN I’m glad you clarified. :) ”
I was looking for (something like) –
RN: @DrEades Ghee, I mostly do. :)
Sláinte
Leon
I’ve met Gentleman Mike a few times in person. He invited me up to SF for the sous vide kickoff show with Heston Blumenthal and it was he, Tim Ferriss and I at table (Tim totally hogged the scrambled eggs with shaved truffle, in case anyone’s interested). Bea and I met him and Mary Dan in our hotel lobby when we were down to Santa Barbra for a family event. He invited us to chez Eades but timing didn’t work. Then, again at AHS11. Among other things, had a drink with he and Gary Taubes in the bar.
All that name dropping because, I like Mike, and extremely so on a personal level I’m fortunate to know. I have to be honest, but I think there’s a world of difference between an obesity doc who knows the therapeutic value of LC, and someone just promoting it as lifestyle. To my knowledge, Mike has never said everyone ought to be on this diet. And when I see him tout a study on effectiveness, I take it to mean that it’s a BENIGN intervention (I’m not splitting hairs there…look at SAD), even if you don’t need it; i.e., no harm on trying for anyone (just like RS); so, he gets a total pass in terms of my current mission (i.e., not being condescending) and I was happy to try to clarify that in 140 characters or less.
@yien – Interesting study you linked. Tells me that maybe we don’t know as much as we think we know about ancestral diets and why they worked so well. It’s not always about the macro ratio. So the Hadza were also eating starch blockers, and the Inuits were eating Eskimo Potatoes…what next?
Jeez Rich, I’ve just now seen DrEades twitter update.
Consequently, I have just rated you 1 (scale 1 to 10) on the Didn’t you see the Joke Scale.
Sláinte
“1 (scale 1 to 10) on the Didn’t you see the Joke Scale.”
Leon. Thing is I love thinking that you think I don’t get your jokes, even if I have to Google around a bit for Latin translations.
But I’m torn. “…If Leon thinks I get his rather esoteric jokes, will he get bored and go elsewhere with them?”
…Ah, in labores of being a blogger.
…BTW, your follow up would have packed a bit more punch leading off with…
“Gheez Rich”
:)
Touché :)
This may be a stupid question but how does resistant starch figure in with the recommended grams of fiber we are told we should get each day? I am assuming that 30 grams a day of resistant starch could replace the 30 grams of day of “regular’ fiber recommended for my age and gender. Does that seem correct?
For example: Fitday says that yesterday I ate 18.5 grams of “regular” fiber. In addition, I calculate that I consumed about 40 grams of resistant starch (2 potatoes, cooked and cooled; 2 unripe bananas; 3 tablespoons of unmodified potato starch). The 18.5 grams indicated by Fitday is less fiber than normally recommended but I would imagine that the resistant starch would more than make up for it. I am also curious how this might translate into net carbs.
I have just moved to a moderate carb diet (100-200g carbs each day) after seven years of low carb (under 100g carbs a day). The low carb years were great for my waistline but no so much for my gut. Several months of eating probiotic yogurt helped slightly but but my first week of increasing resistant starch has made a _huge_ difference. Thanks, Richard. I believe that resistant starch will turn out to be as important as Vitamin D.
Tatertot,
What did you mean when you said this over on Matt’s site? I thought one of the benefits of resistant starch was that it helped with weight loss? Are you referring to resistant starch filled foods, such as potatoes, or does your comment include the resistant starch supplement that you have been referring to from Bob’s Red Mill? I’m just confused about your comment, and hope you wouldn’t mind clarifying it. Thanks.
“The biggest joke of all is that resistant starch will likely make you fatter, but healthier. There’s actually a term for it in the studies: ‘MHO’, Metabolically Healthy but Obese.”
@R – One thing that I am super-glad about is that nobody has chimed in and said, “I ate 4TBS of potato starch a day for 6 weeks and lost 12 pounds!” It would be cool if it was that easy, but RS is not a weightloss tool, just like Vit D is not a weightloss tool. Eating RS rich foods or taking straight potato starch needs to be looked at as a way to set your gut flora straight, and once that’s done, hopefully reap the rewards in better insulin sensitivity, better sleep, better digestion, better conversion of vitamins and minerals, and better metabolism–all which may lead to long term weight control.
I made the comment because of a little dig that Matt took in the main article saying RS will become a new diet fad for 2014 or something like that.
Thanks for asking!
@R – Oh, this probably answers your question better…I was reading this study just before I saw that 180 post: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3725498/
“The failure of advice from the medical profession, scientists and governments for people to lose weight has forced consideration of whether people can be fat but healthy (metabolically healthy but obese, MHO). Although a proportion of the population appears to be naturally MHO [73], which may be associated with factors such as distribution of fat mass [74] and inflammatory status [75], the question remains are there simple life-style interventions than can improve metabolic health in the majority of the obese population? The current study suggests that, in the short term, this is not achieved by moderate increases fibre intake, either in RS or NSP form, above that currently recommended. There may be effects of such dietary interventions but these appear small compared with the improvements achieved by only a very modest weight loss. Of course, there may be additional beneficial effects on gut health, especially in the colon [15,72,76]. The careful nutritional control exerted in the current study was of only limited duration and other benefits may emerge from longer studies, as observed with low GI diets [12]. Furthermore, dietary fibre may alleviate the potential reduction in IS induced by certain nutrients, including protein [50]. Nonetheless, longer term weight loss also produces substantial benefits in terms of metabolic health [61] and so the route of reduced body mass should still be the main target of lifestyle intervention. ”
What this study looked at is: is it possible to feed unhealthy obese people resistant starch and miraculously make them healthy while still obese? The answer is NO. Weight loss needs to be the primary concern. In my opinion, it needs to be done in conjunction with healing the gut–and that’s where RS comes in. If you just unleashed RS on the public and said, ‘eat this and you will lose weight’, most would probably end up fatter. One reason being that having better gut microbes means they can extract more nutrition out of the food your eat–a study Richard put up a couple weeks ago explored this in depth, and found that rats (I think) got heavier, but not fatter. They grew lean body mass.
@Jeff – We are kind of making this up as we go along. There is no ‘protocol’, but I’m sure some slick salesman doctor will come up with one soon.
My thoughts are: Screw Fiber. The fiber labels placed on food are meaningless. The term ‘fiber’ as we use it means any fiber, soluble, insoluble, fermentable, non-fermentable. Some fibers you want–some you don’t.
I say, aim for eating as many fruits and vegetables in a day as fits your appetite, workload, calories targets, etc… Try to eat a wide variety of fresh and cooked veggies, and eat some every day. Include the RS-rich foods we have talked about in your meal plans. I like to think that 20-30g/day is a good target for RS, if you aren’t hitting that with food, take a spoonful of potato starch.
20-30g/day in food looks like: 2-3 green bananas. 2 cups of cooked, cooled, then re-cooked rice, beans, or potatoes. 1 large plantain either dried or cubed and stirfried. There’s RS in other foods, if you’ve seen the Master List, but you’ll see it’s hard to get more than 2-3g per day from those, unless you can eat 3 cups of cashews.
Oooooh! That makes complete sense now. Thank you for taking the time to clarify that. I only check Matt’s site ever now and then to see if there’s anything worth reading (he sometimes says something I agree with), so I was a bit confused seeing your comment (I don’t know your opinion on Matt’s point of view). I’m okay with RS not directly creating weight loss, I just don’t want to gain weight. I have several health issues related to my current weight (not “high” cholesterol, or any nonsense like that), and I can’t gain more weight. Your comment temporarily scared me since I just started taking the potato starch supplement to help improve my gut health. I hope that will result in weight loss down the road as my health improves. I’m not willing to do anything that will screw up my health or metabolism, and risk gaining more weight, so adding the potato starch feels like a safe step to take as long as it doesn’t cause weight gain. Time will tell, but your explanation eased my mind, so I will continue to take the potato starch and see what happens. Thank you.
Who the fuck is Matt Stone, who cares, and why?
…Are you talking about the guy who did ONE POST on RS like 4 years ago, never mentioned it since, and quickly moved onto refined sugar as the new medicine for all that ails you?
He recently took a poke at RS in one of his posts. I didn’t know he mentioned RS before now. I only came across his site a year or so ago, but I don’t ‘follow’ him. I only pop in every now and again to see what he’s talking about, so I can’t say much about him other than that.
@Richard – Yep, that’s the guy. I go there for lafs every now and then. I think he has a good blog for people who got caught up in the various dieting scams trying to look like bikini models and ruined their health…he makes them feel good and tells them it’s OK to be heavy…eat that pizza…drink that Coke…recently Anthony Colpo has been doing a guest appearance talking about the stupidity of Healthy Whole Grains and nailing it.
@tatertot 9:43
Yea, the actual cool thing about RS is that it’s not a short term miracle in terms of weight loss.
But the jury is still out on it’s being an easy long term solution. Look, getting fat didn’t take a week or two. It took years of frog in the increasingly boiling water, until he was cooked. That’s what I’m betting on. Look at it this way. If increasingly compromised gut bacteria motivate you to eat a bit more because of malabsorption, but healing that provides for better absorption, then this pretty much leapfrogs (wow, two frog metaphors in one comment) all dietary advice including Paleo.
My view: fix the 90% and have the patience to see if over time! with ups & downs, you lose the excess fat at roughly the same way you gained it.
This is why I’m not only not adverse, but celebrate food manufacturers to get RS into their goodies. It won’t help Paleo because that’s a whole other step, but it might minimally help reverse 4 decades of ignorance.
In my view, the thing that will actually derail manufactures in this is that their products cause people to fart more. That’s the subject of a post I’m working on, but requires a total effort in funny and ironic.
@tatertot. I was being facetious. Search my blog for Matt Stone.
@Richard – I’m with you 100%, I just rue the day when every wheat flour muffin, bagel, and cupcake comes ‘fortified with resistant starch!’ and people stuff them down faster than ever.
@Richard – just searched…yes you know the guy well. Making money off people who can’t ‘do paleo’ is still makin’ money–gotta give him that.
Has anyone noticed improvement in low body temperature using RS? I have hypothyroidism and have checked my temp nearly every day for 20 years. I averaged about 97.5 for a few years then did LC for a few years and temp stayed around 97.1. I switched to VLC because LC didn’t seem to be working any more and my temp dropped to 96.8. Not good. My prescription was raised yet again but most days my temp would still barely hit 97 plus I felt like crap so I started PHD safe starches plus plenty of fruits and immediately felt better and body temp climbed to a average 97.2 for the past couple of years. I have tried coconut oil, increased activity, herbs, and so on and nothing helped to raise my temp.
2 weeks ago I started 4 T potato starch per day and within 5 days my temp started to climb daily. I took my temp this morning it was 98.6 I don’t fucking believe it! It’s been decades since I’ve seen that temp. I have made no other changes other than the 4 T RS. Is this a fluke? Has any one else noticed this or checked for body temp changes?
@CDLXI – I’m so glad that you brought body temperature up. My temps in the morning have averaged between 95.5 – 96.5 for years and would go up to just past 97(at best) in the late afternoon. Since starting potato starch(4T) per day, my waking temps are just above 97 and get to 98.1(my highest) in the late afternoon. I couldn’t be happier. I assume its the better digestion and absorption but who knows.
@tatertot – about weight loss… when I first started the potato starch, I couldn’t stop peeing for 3-4 days and lost 6 pounds that I haven’t put back on.(about 3 weeks)
CDLXI
I checked. You’re at about 18 total comments at FTA. Some do hundreds.
But you get a whole post:
freetheanimal.com/2013/09/note-to-matt-stone-body-temp-guru-youre-welcom.html
Shocked!
I am so curious to see if others experienced this but most people don’t keep a close eye on their body temps. Maybe those just starting RS can watch for temp changes now .
@ CDLXI – I’m hypo as well. I can start checking my temps, but I’ve been taking the potato starch for several days now, so I have no idea what my start temp was. It would still be interesting to see if it goes up at all from this point. I can update you in about a week.
@ E – I have been peeing a lot the last two days as well, even though I haven’t changed my fluid intake. I was down a pound this morning. I didn’t mention it because 2 days and 1 pound down really isn’t proof of anything. A several pound fluctuation is normal anyhow. Now I’m curious if what happened to you is happening to me. Well, if my weight keeps going down, and stays down, I’ll let you all know that as well.
E- Very interesting.
R- Looking forward to your temp readings.
@ CDLXI – I posted my temp on ‘your’ thread.
freetheanimal.com/2013/09/note-to-matt-stone-body-temp-guru-youre-welcom.html#comment-537526
Richard, how was your appetite in the days and hours after these tests ?(if you talked about this and I missed it, sorry) My main issue with carbs, starchy ones in particular is that I become preoccupied with eating and am never quite satiated and feel driven to continue eating.. I suppose they somehow interfere with hunger/satiety signals but I really don’t know. I prefer to forget about food between meals so LC works for me. I have no blood sugar issues and health problems.