Why I’m All Over Jimmy Moore’s Ass

Yea, it continues, mostly on Twitter.

Here's what's funny. I've been writing that "I've written a dozen posts on resistant starch" for a while, now, but actually just counted them. There's 45 of them since the first one back last April: Prepare for the “Resistant Starch” Assimilation; Resistance is Futile. And it's a long time now since I published some of the best research Tim and I had come up with out of hundreds, going back 30 years.

And there have been many others, here and there, including a brand new one just the other day (thanks to the three people, including a former "enemy," who emailed me the full text—turns out neither of us hold grudges).

I didn't expect too much at the outset, but then I had my own results and N=1 was coming in in comments, 95% positive, but more importantly, all reporting about the same things. There are now hundreds of people doing this worldwide and I know not of one ounce of harm.

But then—I guess it was a week ago or something—I got a couple of emails from LLVLC readers asking me about their KETOGENIC experience! WTF? I didn't ask any questions, just pointed them to the appropriate post where, RS not only doesn't raise BG, it actually blunts BG. In other words, if Keto is your deal, RS not only improves it by blunting BG spikes in bits of starch you may consume, but gets you other improvements like better fasting BG, feeds your critters, better sleep, relief of constipation, etc. The caveat is that the BG spike blunting is most profound on a normal carb diet.

I considered emailing Jimmy privately to hopefully get him to listen. Problem is, every time I have brought it up, I get the same smiley, that's great, keep it up, bla bla bla.

So I decided to call him out publicly.

Why are "his peeps" coming to me? Since that first Jimmy post a few days back, tons of new commenters on the blog, Facebook, Twitter. New names. Where do you suppose they are coming from?

This is telling.

I'm doing well with what I'm doing now. But I wish anyone well who wants to try it.

So is my response.

You mistake my intention, Jimmy. I'm out to help all your fans, because your only stated care is yourself. You're asleep at the wheel because this embarrasses and will relentlessly embarrass you, and I'll see to it.

And I will.

All LLVLC folks with problems are welcome here. Open arms. You want to do Keto? We may advise against it if not a therapeutic intervention (obesity, diabetes, neuro, cancer, etc) but yea, we have an app for that and a lot of people are doing that. Have you been plagued with problems for years like slow metabolism, yo-yo weight (did you see the girl who LC yo-yoed for 5 years 20-25 pounds and dropped 60 in 6 months by only adding resistant starch?) cold hands & feet, sleep problems, bathroom problems including constipation and infrequency? There are dozens if not hundreds of comments on those 45 posts reporting reversal of all of those things and more.

I just won't sit by. I'd just prefer Jimmy tell me to fuck off and go away. I will not tolerate being placated and patronized while his people are coming to me for advice he will not help them get, even if it helps them.

And really, the only logical answer to the question of why that is, is because them being helped hurts Jimmy, or at least he perceives that it does. And so, finally, that kinda puts Jimmy in a different category of folk, for me. I hope time proves me wrong.

Update: Jimmy has relented. :) He's put up a fair and open minded post about resistant starch, opening the door for more of his readers to be exposed to its possibilities: What’s All The Fuss About Resistant Starch?

Comments

  1. EatLessMoveMoore says:

    What’s telling is how Jimmy is very purposeful about controlling the debate. I personally know of several friends/colleagues who have (respectfully, I might add) inquired about his position on RS on his site. Not only did the comments go unanswered, they went unposted. If you think you’re right – and can back it up – why not entertain contrary opinions? Then again, that’s always been Jimmy’s issue – from ‘modifying’ comments to outright censorship.

  2. MsMcGillicuddy says:

    Along with ignoring certain facts when pointed out to him.

  3. lol, you are going to provoke poor jimmies into posting a excessively long sniveling, finger pointing retort

  4. I very seriously doubt it. You see, he only does that when the subject matter is appropriate (sat fat, cholesterol, etc).

  5. ….I’m pretty tough for him to materially take on here. Why? Because I’m not anti LC, not anti Keto even. I don’t think by any means it’s a “healthy lifestyle,” no more than taking antibiotics prophylactically—or any drug intervention—constitutes a “healthy lifestyle” to embrace. But the dose make the poison, and Keto undoubtedly helps some people who need it and all the Side Effects are a good tradeoff.

    The thing is, I knew yesterday how ignorant he was, as he talks about RS in terms of carbs. Today, I asked him on twitter how many carbs a 1 lb bag of raw potato starch has. He didn’t answer. So, I did. It has ZERO carbs….RAW. If you cook it, 375 grams.

    He didn’t answer, but I am absolutely certain he had no clue about that.

  6. No way jimmy would direct his ire at you , he knows you would steamroll his ass. Most likely he will do his best to ignore any and all talk about RS as that’s his general way of doing things.

    I see another poster ( Charles I believe ) noticed his mood has improved and I have noticed the same thing. I was told that I have been “nice” lately ( me?) maybe it’s true, I haven’t even called jimmy a pussy in the threads referring to him. Any one else notice mood improvement?

  7. gabriella kadar says:

    Maybe Jimmy is eating RPS in secret. You know, trying it out without telling anybody.

  8. Dr. Curmudgeon Gee says:

    i gave up on Jimmy after his safe starch experiments.

  9. I think Jimmy’s just straight up not smart enough to figure out the resistant starch thing and so he’s just not going to touch it.

  10. @CDLXI

    Much to my dismay, I’ve been told by way too many that I’m “nicer.” At least nobody has gone so far as to tell me I’m just plain ‘ol “nice.” :)

  11. “Maybe Jimmy is eating RPS in secret. You know, trying it out without telling anybody.”

    Possible. Highly doubt it. Jimmy is smart. He probably realizes that if this works, it really means LC as anything beyond therapeutic is not a “healthy low carb lifestyle” because ancestors had no PS and so all RS had to come from foods and pretty much, those are starchy foods.

    He knows there is not really anywhere to go or any upside for him in this. If he were to embrace it, he’s going to face endless questions about carby foods that have RS.

  12. Richard-

    I admire you for telling it like it is! You follow the science, do the experiments and don’t give a shit what anyone thinks… You don’t have something to protect – You aren’t making money promoting low carb/primal/paleo so you can filter the bullshit and find the truth brother.

    As for Jimmy, I’m surprised you think he is smart. IMO, he is a closed minded idiot. People like him are the reason why nutritional science is so bad – they discredit anything new for personal or financial reasons. The idiot won’t even fucking ENTERTAIN the idea that there may be something here. Good on Sisson for recently writing about it, crediting you, and saying he may have been wrong about it. Jimmy is unintelligent and ignorant and there is nothing left to say. He will end up playing catch-up on resistant starch and again be behind the times, just like he was with Paleo. How long can he go on pushing the same low-carb shit over and over.

    Jimmy Moore is the Dean Ornish of Low Carb.

    Peace.

  13. Ryan

    I think Jimmy is smart because he has demonstrated so. Jimmy Swaggart was smart. One really has to be to command such attention and influence.

    Doesn’t mean not biased.

    The worst thing to be in the world, to me, is dishonest. Now, that’s not a bright line. We all have our dishonesties, especially and foremost to ourselves. But publicly, chronically, is not something I can abide. That’s why I am no politician’s fan. None, and some are ruthlessly smart. See?

    Like I said, I hope time proves me wrong about Jimmy, but I have done months of work (with Tim…and frankly, he was the mainstay, me the promoter) to get this info out there that has proven itself via hundreds of n=1 saying almost the same things. I have given and begged Jimmy to pay attention and it’s come down to his people coming to me and my commenters.

    I want to be very clear that I have no interest in Jimmy’s destruction. He has an important and amazing ability to influence and help people and nothing would make me happier than for him to embrace this pretty solid piece of the puzzle. And I don’t have a care in the world that I get credit and I can speak for Tim here too. Neither does he.

  14. doogiehowsermd says:

    Actually Richard, you’re smart. You know damn well what Jimmy’s intelligence is. You also know damn well that making a comment about it will detract from your real purpose at this very moment – to help Jimmy and his followers.

    You’re not the random crazy a**hole you (deliberately?) appear to be. Every move is strategic – I see you do it all the time dude. I’ve been watching you since the mid-2000′s.

  15. Richard,
    For the rest of this week I can take some of the keto-related questions again, so feel free to send them my way chéri when they get too much.

    I’m nowhere near as motivated in info-sharing as you and Tim, but rather it’s a pay-it-forward kinda thing: I did the ketogenic testing for purely personal reasons and with Tim’s help, so then fed back whatever I could into the pool of information to maybe help others.

    The only reason I mention that is because it is what so many of your commenters do – it’s a functionally healthy community you’ve got going here. Have I thanked you lately? I know damn well that it’s too easy to take friends for granted.
    marie du tiercé féminin :)

  16. I don’t get why he’s ignoring this. He seems to know that fiber subtracts from your net total of carbs (I think), or you don’t really count it, so can’t he see how RS doesn’t have the same effect as cooked starch/doesn’t count?

    Maybe somebody just needs to explain it to him in a way where he can still fit it into his model.

  17. Jimmu is selling http://www.leanerliving.com/Glycosolve–500-mg-of-berberine-per-capsule_p_9.html which claims to do the same thing as PS. Hmmmmm

  18. DuckDodgers says:

    If Jimmy is smart, he isn’t “ignoring” this. He knows he will have to face this at some point the more his readers find out about a ZERO carb food that helps alleviate problems in 95% of the people who try it.

    Jimmy mentioned that he wants to have a “roundtable” about RS someday. That’s actually code for: Find two other “experts” to join him in a recorded interview to try and dismiss RS, like he tried to do with safe starches.

    If you remember, Kurt Harris published his email exchange with Jimmy when Jimmy was first worried out about safe starches:

    http://www.archevore.com/panu-weblog/2011/9/29/jimmy-moore-inquires-about-safe-starches.html

    There’s no doubt that Jimmy is emailing his Paleoverse buddies looking for ways to shoot down RS right now. Most of them will have no clue since this is off their radar.

    Truthfully it’s probably better to let Jimmy drag his feet. As more time that goes by, the more data, research and more n-1s you will have to show him at that roundtable — and the more people who will get on board the RS bus that is leaving the station.

    And if he doesn’t ever have that roundtable, we’ll make our own. I’m envisioning something like the 2014 Resistant Starch Summit. We’ll have RS shooters and mashed potatoes at the front door.

  19. MsMcGillicuddy says:

    “Jimmy Moore is the Dean Ornish of Low Carb.”

    yes, you hit it right on the head. As I recall, Ornish was done in by Omega 3 FAs and now Moore will be done in by RS.

    Long term, we have to make peace with all the macros, lol.

    It’s not nice to fool Mother Nature.

  20. @chad

    If that’s true, one would need to take 30 pills per day to get to just a low end RS consumption of 15g and see some of the benefits we’ve been talking about.

    Beatrice just recently began taking 15g most nights and has had improved sleep and fasting BG, so that seems like a decent dose to me. I’ve recently ramped up to 60g, 4T PS twice per day. No problems and the one effect I’ve noticed so far is that sleep is so good I’m pretty much done in 5-6 hours and get antsy to get up and start moving my ass around, and with fabulous brain clarity.

  21. I hope he can read this by Denise Minger – announcing today her new book:

    “… And while I don’t identify with a specific diet, I absolutely support the ancestral health movement and the vast majority of what it pumps out—in terms of research, theory, and genuinely awesome people. But I’ve come to realize that every diet community has its own “creation story” about how our problems all started. And they’re all at least a little bit wrong. And then the depths of Hades rumbled, and from its fiery center emerged [carbs/saturated fat/salt/animal protein/fructose/vegetable oils/Paula Deen], forever destroying the state of human health! With great fervor, these tales are embraced and parroted. Their ubiquity becomes evidence of truth. And when we spend our time hanging out in niche diet circles where most people think the same things and eat same foods and gripe the same gripes, it becomes all too easy to stop questioning what we “know…..”
    More than ever, I want to help demolish the tribalism existing within the nutrition world—to encourage us to learn from each other globally, instead of listening only to the voices tumbling around whatever dietary echo chamber we’ve locked ourselves into. I think that’s the only way to advance our collective knowledge. Among the rivaling diet communities, we seem to get stuck in a scarcity mentality where the success of The Other is seen as a threat to our own. But that shouldn’t have to be the case. We should approach dietary anomalies with curiosity and intrigue, rather than the knee-jerk reaction to defend our own kind.

    http://rawfoodsos.com/2013/12/17/i-made-a-book/

  22. I’m 67 years old and it’s only in the last decade I came to recognize a truth, if I may use the word, when debating a subject. It doesn’t matter if it is health, macro economics, religion, politics, or any other policy.

    There is almost always a pool of empirical, historical experience to draw from. If the debaters agree on a desired goal (lower FBG, less poverty, whatever), the pool of empirical evidence will often show what is right or wrong to attain the stated goal.

    OTOH, you have ideology. No proof, just stated dogma over and over.

    There is a reason that “ideology” and “idiot” have the same root.

  23. Charles Grashow says:

    It’s also interesting that Berberine LOWERS cholesterol as well

    http://blog.case.edu/yxr10/2005/1/19/nm1135.pdf

    SO – I wonder what his lipid levels are WITHOUT the berberine??

  24. MsMcGillicuddy says:

    pzo – so many are either victims of or only capable of – binary thinking patterns.

  25. Rob Turner says:

    You should be a guest on his show. He’s interviewed Dean Ornish so I don’t think he’s afraid to have a debate with someone that has a different opinion.

    I’d love to listen to that.

  26. greensleeves says:

    “It has ZERO carbs”

    I think this is where the confusion comes in for most peeps, RN. You may find it helpful to unpack this statement because if you read Bob’s own PS label, it says 10 carbs per 1T. So being good label readers, the LLVC people just cannot follow your statement here, and that includes JM.

    http://www.bobsredmill.com/images/D/1444C244_PotatoStarch_b_750.jpg

    Looking at the research, it seems that IF you have the correct critters, they will eat 8-9 of that 10, leaving you with only 1 to content with. But how do you know if you have those critters? If you don’t have the right critters then you’re downing spoonfuls of trouble ‘cuz there’s nothing to eat the RS so you get stufck with it.

    And since they’re diabetic, they’re afraid. Clearing up this particular point in a new post for them might allay their fears. :D

  27. @Rob

    “You should be a guest on his show.”

    I’ve been a guest twice. First time was just the standard Paleo stuff. Second was about how I think calories count, a bit of food reward stuff.

    A couple of months ago I offered up Tim & I for an interview about RS in a Twitter exchange. Got a 1-word reply. “Nah.”

    I got three requests for podcasts on other people’s shows yesterday. Working out details on all. Jimmy knows full well I’ll come on any time. Others are perfectly welcome to suggest it.

    @greenslaves

    What doesn’t get eaten by critters ends up as undigested RS in your poop.

  28. Thanks to this blog I have started my own n=1 with RS. Regarding Jimmy Moore and RS, even though Biology is arguably the most complex of subjects, our need to know the Truth is deeply rooted. Isaiah Berlin said (to vastly oversimplify), Western thought was built on three pillars: #1 – that every true question has one True Answer (if it does not, there is something wrong with the question); #2 – that all True Answers are knowable and discoverable; and #3 – that all True Answers were compatible with and could not contradict each other, (otherwise, the universe was not rational, so, Chaos). According to Berlin, Machiavelli skewered #3, which among other things makes Utopia not just unachievable, but conceptually incoherent. Everyone has his own preferred method of attaining #2 (see e.g. Religion v. Science). Berlin argues the Romantics killed #1, but it remains awfully hard to give up a Truth just when you think you had it nailed. I like Lord Keynes reply to the accusation of flip-flopping: “When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?” Good stuff in Denise Minger’s statement in Gemma’s comment above. And I have always enjoyed Richard’s snarl in the presence of the blindly orthodox.

  29. sootedninjas says:

    do tell. which podcast are you appearing on ?

  30. @lampoon

    Check this out:

    https://twitter.com/livinlowcarbman/status/412727538344275968

    Jimmy Moore
    ‏@livinlowcarbman
    @TomDNaughton LOL! Just Richard being dogmatic while labeling everyone who disagrees with him of being that way. #classicNikoley

    Which is a blatant lie. It’s just a lie.

    @soot

    I’ll let everyone know when they come out over time.

  31. sootedninjas says:

    is Tom N. serious about trying it himself because if he does and sees the benefit that everyone is seeing then that could convince Jimmy the importance of RS.

    He is prolly afraid that it could derail the writing of his latest book “Keto Clarity”.

    He als0 made a statement on his latest low carb cruise that his next goal is to lose more weight and get to see his abs. so seeing his abs is much more important than feeding the critters that is 90% of him.

  32. greensleeves says:

    ” He seems to know that fiber subtracts from your net total of carbs (I think), or you don’t really count it, so can’t he see how RS doesn’t have the same effect as cooked starch/doesn’t count?”

    Here’s the common LC issue with this statement: the world expert on fiber, Dr. Joanne Slavin, no longer believes it’s true. She thinks some people based on their critters can actually digest much fiber that was previously thought indigestible. She has stopped using the “net” concept, and so has Dr. Eric Westman. So if you’re following Slavin as the recognized expert, you’re going to return to counting total carbs because you don’t know if you’re a fiber-digester or not.

  33. What may bring this topic full circle is the apparent fact that resistant starch is ketogenic. From http://physrev.physiology.org/content/81/3/1031.full:

    Human colonic bacteria ferment RS and nonstarch polysaccharides (NSP; major components of dietary fiber) to short-chain fatty acids (SCFA), mainly acetate, propionate, and butyrate. SCFA stimulate colonic blood flow and fluid and electrolyte uptake. Butyrate is a preferred substrate for colonocytes and appears to promote a normal phenotype in these cells. Fermentation of some RS types favors butyrate production. Measurement of colonic fermentation in humans is difficult, and indirect measures (e.g., fecal samples) or animal models have been used. Of the latter, rodents appear to be of limited value, and pigs or dogs are preferable. RS is less effective than NSP in stool bulking, but epidemiological data suggest that it is more protective against colorectal cancer, possibly via butyrate.

    In layman’s terms, fiber and resistant starch are ketogenic for people who have healthy colon bacteria. The bacteria ferment fiber and resistant starch into short-chain fatty acids, which the body preferentially breaks down into ketone bodies.

    Furthermore, it’s these short-chain fatty acids (or the ketone bodies produced therefrom) that are thought to prevent colon cancer.

    Thoughts?

  34. “Just Richard being dogmatic while labeling everyone who disagrees with him of being that way.” Ha. Ironic how often the accuser identifies his own flaws. Or as Tolkien says in another context, “the treacherous are ever distrustful.”

  35. I’ve been potato hacking since the beginning of this all started and am doing the PS too…but man alive, I wish that those two things meant appetite suppression for me. I feel like I really screwed my body up with all the keto-nonsense I tried following for the better part of two years. I wish I had never even heard of LLVLC, because I was just listening and taking it in-”well if low sugar is good, then no carbs should be greater!” Argh. I’m trying to not be given to dietary extremes anymore, when it comes to macros (such as at least 75%fat per day! everyday, along with caloric restriction while trying to lift 4xs a week, not to mention home life pressures). I gained every ounce of weight back, plus a little extra. I have no clear idea how to lose weight at this point. Potato hack did work, but I was insanely grouchy, tired and cold. Much like I was on an Atkins fat fast. Any ideas for making a potato hack less volitile?

  36. @Kati

    How much PS are you taking?

    I’m not really advising anyone to do this, and I have ramped up but will soon be going full bore, but this has been pretty profound for me so far.

    http://freetheanimal.com/2013/12/dramatic-resistant-success.html

    He describes what happened when in frustration, he doubled down and went to 8T per day. Interestingly, no increase in fartage for me. But, out of a measure of caution I’m not promoting this until I get more info on myself, I’m I’m not even full bore on it, yet.

  37. I would also love to hear you on his show, and have often thought about it as I mix up my potato starch kombucha/or yogurt concoctions. I’m miffed to hear he won’t even entertain that idea, but I do know he was working on a Keto Clarity book. So not sure if he’s too busy to start something new just yet.

  38. I am taking a varied amount, with 4 TBSP being the mean. About a day a week I skip, then the amounts can be 1 tsp up to 6TBSP a day. Maybe I should get more exact about it until I see a good pattern. Interestingly, I took 4 heaped TBSP this afternoon, and then this evening finished off my jar with 3 more heaped tBSP, before reading this specific post or the one you linked to. I identified with the man in the link, when he talked about going to sleep but not passing out after his fig newton/sugar and PS experiment. I feel like that after eating sugar, and hot and sick with a headache too. Maybe I should buy a glucose meter :p. Thank you for responding so kindly to me. I keep coming back to your blog as a reference point again and again because I can sense that things are afoot in the ancestral health movement and I see you and TTTim as the coffee stirrers.

  39. @Kati

    He doesn’t even understand, nor listen, that RS actually helps Keto in some important ways and this research was done by a PhD chemist commenter who’s dad has liver cancer and Keto is the chosen therapeutic diet (in league with the Greek docs) in conjunction with the standard interventions.

    http://freetheanimal.com/2013/10/resistant-ingestion-blunting.html

    Perhaps people can read that and understand my level of frustration with Jimmy. I think he just will not consider a thing not approved by Volek & Phinny who I’m sure he has on speed dial.

  40. Lol! I have two of Volek and Phinney’s books, The Art(s) of… I felt excited when I read them , but simultaneously deeply discouraged, because I know sometime, somewhere I would eat carbs, and probably a significant amount, if I haven’t had them in awhile, thus losing my magical dietary keto club membership for a rough three weeks.

  41. @Kati

    I don’t know. Some people hit me exactly the right way, and others exactly the wrong way. Guess?

    So, you’re doing big dose. Alright then, perhaps look at the floral substate. …Hang on…. OK, here it is:

    http://freetheanimal.com/2013/12/resistant-primer-newbies.html#comment-548824

    She cured her headache issues with PRObiotics, the soil based ones. Personally, I just clean under my fingernails with my teeth. :)

  42. MsMcGillicuddy says:

    I am thinking that for weight loss, perhaps a lowered calorie, unprocessed foods diet, rotated with a cyclical LC Keto diet and some IF fasting (along with exercise) may be an effective strategy.

  43. MsMcGillicuddy, a woman after my own heart!
    You’ve got the perfect combination there, when you add RS to it too, which anyone can happily do in Any metabolic state including Keto.

    I’m going on the basic principle that humans are not only omnivores. Most come from parts of the world where there had to have been adaptation to cyclic variations in both food quantity and food sources/types.

    So including cyclical elements is not just for weight loss, but also for effortless weight maintenance, metabolic health, gut health and immunity, longevity, endurance, mitochondrial density and efficiency (even more so if periodic, variable exercise includes some form of HIIT), and oh by the way….few wrinkles (less glycation end products).

    If at this point it sounds like perfection, well, it’s because it is :).

  44. Kati,
    if you’re looking for appetite suppression, maybe this will work, it’s what I noted worked most strongly :
    1 hr before meals, 4Tbsp potato starch in water.
    This worked even when breaking a 48hr fast, which really got my attention as normally I’m famished at that point. In the past I’d actually go on to about 52 hrs or so, when appetite fell again in some typical fasting cycle, in order to avoid overeating at 48hrs . This was Not a problem though when taking the PS before breaking that 48hr fast.

    In a completely accidental ‘independent verification’, various family members (they are all taking RS by now) discovered for themselves an appetite-suppressing effect too, if taken ‘some time’ before eating. I hadn’t thought to ask them originally.
    Being told about it now may be biasing, but who cares (!), let me know if you try it? :)

  45. It will come. I dare to say, eventually we will see not only big screamy badges “reinforced\enriched with resistant starch”, but also Resistant Starch content on nutritional facts label. Maybe years from now, but it is gonna happen.
    “First they laugh at you…”

  46. Just want to add, that types RS3 and RS4 are pretty heat resistant which makes them suitable for fortification of various products.

  47. Rob Turner says:

    Paul Jaminet has a fairly nice explanation of how the gut bacteria changes the macronutrient profile of food in humans and other animals in the Perfect Health Diet (Page 34, The Transformation of Food Into Nutrients):
    http://www.amazon.com/Perfect-Health-Diet-Regain-Weight/dp/1451699158/

    I’d love to hear his opinion on this too since he’s a pretty big advocate of starch in the diet.

  48. @marie
    Salut! If I take 4Tbsp of raw PS before a meal, I simply won’t eat the meal. Raw PS simply KILLS my appetite. Which is why I take it early in the morning with water, and a bit before bed time once I am well into the digestion of my evening meal. Otherwise, I would not eat at all !!! :D

  49. Why Jimmy Moore, et al, aren’t worth listening to:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9k7VhM_Oh8

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3I02aVkdi_M

    Try Joel Furhman, McDougall or just watching your calories vs. BS like “Paleo” and “low carb”.

  50. @ Rob Turner
    Are you the owner of functionalps?

  51. MsMcGillicuddy says:

    yes, marie – so far we are tracking…lightbulbs going off in my head. I wish I was retired from my day job, I’d have time to draft an e-book I think on the RS diet LOL.

  52. Marie and Ms McGillicuddy- I was trying to think of some way to cycle keto with PS and regular
    ERFs. I’m open to suggestions! Would two days ERF one day keto help, with a nine to ten hour food window all days? I should say that fasting longer than 16 hours for me is really difficult, as I have experienced a bit of burn out from too much fasting combined with exercise and cal restriction.
    I will try the 4 TBSP pre breakfast and supper. I was just taking it with meals or between, but that sounds like a good tweak.

  53. MsMcGillicuddy says:

    Hi Kati, sorry, but to be clear – not sure what you mean by the acronym ERFs? I am just starting to formulate a plan in my head about all of this, but right off the bat, I am thinking that the cycles themselves would be longer i.e.- not bouncing back from day to day. I need to go look at my Lyle McDonald notes, he is sort of a guru on cyclical dieting. As far as RS, as marie says – daily, regardless. As far as IF, I would think (again, off the top of my head) that would not matter, you could incorporate as it fits your own life/schedule/patterns…but again, I need to think more on all of this.

  54. What’s amusing is that Volek & Phinney actually have “SuperStarch-TM” use in their Art & Science of Performance book.

    Notably that “SuperStarch blunted the initial spike in blood glucose and insulin while enhancing the breakdown and oxidation of fat during exercise.” (pg. 64)

    Here is the patent information for SuperStarch – http://www.dfepharma.com/en/excipients/starch/partly-pregelatinised-maize-starch.aspx

    Read through the info on SuperStarch from DFEPharma and you see it is nothing more than pregelatinized cornstarch, but only partially pregelatined so it contains both RS and regular starch. While not PS or other resistant starch per se, it is still a resistant starch product mixed into cold water.

  55. Oh, lol. I put ERF for eat real food. I need to realize that not everyone knows my arbitrary acronyms. I wondered if the cycle I suggested was too short. I’m not at all familiar with Lyle McDonald, although I’ve read info that others attribute to him in little snippets here and there.
    I will do the RS daily and not skip for awhile, until I see a good pattern.
    Some positives are that my moods are more even and I don’t feel a strong desire for coffee anymore. Also, I do have vivid dreams, but it’s almost like they keep me awake at times (while I’m asleep? Maybe I’m just waking up at the wrong point in my sleep cycle). My daily energy is better too.

  56. “Why Jimmy Moore, et al, aren’t worth listening to [...]

    “Try Joel Furhman, McDougall or just watching your calories vs. BS like “Paleo” and “low carb”.”

    Which is why YOU aren’t worth listening to. You just want to substitute one authority for another.

    People need to be listening to themselves, experimenting on themselves. Furhman and McDougall are just the other extreme from LC. Highly omnivorous, including plenty of starch, is probably where people are going to feel best and healthiest.

    It’s funny, people always talk about how the billions of Asians can’t be wrong with their rice eating ways. Indeed, but they include some meat or fish with almost every meal, albeit small portions. Which is fine.

  57. Rob Turner says:

    @Paul – No, just someone with the same name.

  58. MsMcGillicuddy says:

    My WASP side of the family smirks whenever my Peruvian side of the family cooks dinner for all of us – potatoes AND rice, some kind of sauce, a piece of meat, poulty or fish – and often, something fermented.

    The Asians, the Greeks, the people from the Andes, they all got it going on, lol.

  59. The Natural says:

    @Regina, Thanks for confirming my hunch on UCAN – I am assuming UCAN = SuperStarch.
    “Read through the info on SuperStarch from DFEPharma and you see it is nothing more than pregelatinized cornstarch, but only partially pregelatined so it contains both RS and regular starch. While not PS or other resistant starch per se, it is still a resistant starch product mixed into cold water.”

    This was what I was thinking about UCAN too. See my comment here – http://freetheanimal.com/2013/12/resistant-primer-newbies.html#comment-548941

    So, a good experiment might be to mix some PS in Gatorade and see if it improves exercise/athletic performance. I may try this on my 12 year old during the current basketball season ;-)

    T-Nat

  60. Not feeling the love, Richard. Not sure where get off with the following: “Which is why YOU aren’t worth listening to.”

    But, my point is anything but your claim and apparently you have not read Fuhrman who advocates:

    1. Up to 4oz of nuts per day; more for active/healthy people.
    2. Lean/healthy sources of “animal” protein.

    Very similar advice to MDs such as Grundy and Fleming who specialize in disease reversal through non-invasive approaches focusing on diet.

    McDougall is a little more extreme, but, I’d seek his advice over Jimmy Moore.

    Balance is where it is at, but, my point was and still is Moore, like Taubes, Atkins, et al, aren’t people anyone should be looking to for dietary advice. Even “Paleo” (which is another topic) author Robb Wolf recognizes one should limit their consumption of SFAs since it was never consumed in large amounts as part of our ancestral diet.

  61. @Ed – OK. I have read Fuhrman, but only the stuff on the Internet, probably touted by veggies, so it’s only his plant based stuff.

    I’m hoping RS ultimately is the “missing link” because, with it, people can be naturally hugely omnivorous and all the VLC bullshit, as well as the ‘lean protein” bullshit not to mention vegan bullshit go out of the window.

    Okinawans are blue zone. They eat pork with their rice and sweet potatoes. I doubt that they have genetically engineered it to be “the next white meat.”

    OK, are we cool?

  62. LOL…think we’re good.

    Will have to disagree politely w/ the lean protein position…I tend to believe we should be eating more like our primate peers. Vegetables, some fruit, lean proteins and nuts. You don’t find grain fed animal proteins in the wild and the amount of SFAs are significantly lower (anywhere from 11 – 22%) in comparison to higher levels of Omega 3s vs. domestic animals. Eggs? Good luck finding them and from personal experience, trying find a nest vs. rabbit or other small animal was a better use of time when doing wilderness training. I’d have to believe our ancestors were probably not too different.

    No disagreement on omnivorous, but, need to do it in line with our genetics. ;)

  63. “You don’t find grain fed animal proteins”

    Yes, you do. All herbivores eat grains. Ever heard of unmowed grass? It’s just we found a way to concentrate them, and year round.

    The fact most probably is that early man indeed understood the value of animal fat. It’s just that it was rarer. That’s why Amizonians, for instance, hunt monkeys in season; i.e., after they have become fat after gorging on fruit.

    Ed, thanks for pointing out the “Cordianian blind spot.” Unless our ancestors were fucking idiots—and we ultimately built skyscrapers, created thousands of reservoirs by damming up choke points, and went to the moon and back by complete accident—man hunted animal fat with abandon.

    In nature, land and sea animals are both fatty and lean. Eat all of them and then, shut the fuck up and be happy.

  64. “It’s funny, people always talk about how the billions of Asians can’t be wrong with their rice eating ways.”

    Actually Asian stereotype is that they have small muscles – which at least for men who desire value large and strong muscles – would imply Asians are wrong about somehting with their rice-eating ways.

  65. I’d challenge anyone to find a herbivore that consumes or consumed GMO corn, GMO soy. Natural grasses are NOT the grains cattle and pigs consume in the US and Canada. And as countless news sources have shown from John Stossell to Froer have shown: grass fed beef is a myth. I’ve sat next to guys that run slaughter houses in Nebraska who’ve laughed at the range-fed BS on airplanes. They be out on the range, but, those weeks before slaughter? They’re getting their guts filled with as much corn and soy as possible.

    And I’d have to say there’s no possible way early humans understood the “value of animal fat”. Seriously? These individuals were simply trying to stay alive…find water and something to eat that would not make them deathly ill or kill them.

    Sorry, but, they weren’t Groking along trying to kill the fattest big animal they could take down. Yet one more stupid myth perpetuated by the stupidity of the media selling us on the macho caveman BS. I’d challenge anyone who subscribes to it to spend six weeks practicing this theory vs. hiding behind a keyboard.

    And, natural land and sea animals don’t carry the amounts of SFAs domesticated animals do. Our cattle (find a beef cow out in the forest…), chickens (find a bird that comes close to those gawdawful animals science has bred), etc., have no resemblance to creatures in the wild.

    So f-bomb all you want, but, going with the “man hunted fatty animal” nonsense perpetuated by the media makes as much sense as saying “man was a vegan”. Both are flat out wrong.

  66. Speaking of the Cordainian “lean meats” myth, this blog entry from Kurt Harris does a great job dispensing with that notion, and it’s humorous to boot:

    http://www.archevore.com/panu-weblog/2011/4/9/jousting-with-the-atlantic.html

  67. “stereotype”

    Thanks GTR. Thankfully, you can’t even help yourself.

    I’ll just recall how amazed we were over my 5-year’s time in the Yokosuka Naval Shipyards, what weight to strength ratio those little rice eaters had. Hauling up all those pumps, generators, and other heavy equipment through watertight hatch openings, deck by deck. Impressive is not the right word.

    …But, how about you keep jeering off to your own comforting fantasies, GTR. Also, forget all about WWII and the war in the Pacific. Tiny little men, eh? Give you comfort? Fantasy? Now cum.

    I also note that their body size and apparent muscularity is pretty much in line with their women. Go figure nature and the valid cultures that spring from it.

    Then go compare their average longevity with your ancestry. ….Oh, I forgot, you were jerking off here. ‘Scuse.

  68. DuckDodgers says:

    Ed, there’s plenty of evidence of more modern tribes that preferred fatty animals. For instance — and this is just one example — Northern Canadian Indians deliberately hunted older male caribou/elk that had a 50-pound slab of fat on the back of them. The Indians would celebrate the kill, and devour the fat.

    In 1768, Samuel Hearne described how Native American Indian tribes would often kill animals just for their fatty sections:

    On the twenty-second of July, we met several strangers, whom we joined in pursuit of the caribou, which were at this time so plentiful that we got everyday a sufficient number for our support, and indeed too frequently killed several merely for the tongues, marrow, and fat. (Link)

    And there are endless references to ancestral tribes seeking out fat in their hunts. These hunters weren’t sitting around eating nuts and plants all day.

    And speaking of which, what’s so great about nuts? High in Omega-6 and most wild nuts are poisonous. Almonds are believed to be the first nut to be domesticated, and yet, eat a wild almond and the moment you chew it the glycoside amygdalin turns into a near fatal dose of prussic acid (hydrogen cyanide).

    Yes, some advanced tribes ate acorns (Indians in California) but they needed to be soaked for many hours to make them edible — so we are talking about a more technologically advanced consumption for nut-consuming tribes.

    What most nut fans don’t seem to realize is that most of the nuts we take for granted were domesticated to make them edible. And again… high in Omega-6. I don’t see the attraction.

  69. DuckDodgers says:

    Wild cashews are another toxic nut that required a very special preparation just to get a single nut:

    The true fruit of the cashew tree is a kidney or boxing-glove shaped drupe that grows at the end of the cashew apple. The drupe develops first on the tree, and then the pedicel expands to become the cashew apple. Within the true fruit is a single seed, the cashew nut. Although a nut in the culinary sense, in the botanical sense the nut of the cashew is a seed. The seed is surrounded by a double shell containing an allergenic phenolic resin, anacardic acid, a potent skin irritant chemically related to the better-known allergenic oil urushiol which is also a toxin found in the related poison ivy. Properly roasting cashews destroys the toxin, but it must be done outdoors as the smoke (not unlike that from burning poison ivy) contains urushiol droplets which can cause severe, sometimes life-threatening, reactions by irritating the lungs. People who are allergic to cashew urushiols may also react to mango or pistachio which are also in the Anacardiaceae family. Some people are allergic to cashew nuts, but cashews are a less frequent allergen than other nuts or peanuts. (Link)

    Sounds like a fun way to get more Omega-6.

  70. DuckDodgers says:

    My favorite is Nutmeg — the toxic effects begin with the consumption of just 3 nuts:

    In low doses, nutmeg produces no noticeable physiological or neurological response, but in large doses, raw nutmeg has psychoactive effects. In its freshly ground (from whole nutmegs) form, nutmeg contains myristicin, a monoamine oxidase inhibitor and psychoactive substance. Myristicin poisoning can induce convulsions, palpitations, nausea, eventual dehydration, and generalized body pain. It is also reputed to be a strong deliriant.

    Fatal myristicin poisonings in humans are very rare, but two have been reported: one in an 8-year-old child and another in a 55-year-old adult, the latter case attributed to a combination with flunitrazepam.

    In case reports raw nutmeg produced anticholinergic-like symptoms, attributed to myristicin and elemicin.

    In case reports intoxications with nutmeg had effects that varied from person to person, but were often reported to be an excited and confused state with headaches, nausea and dizziness, dry mouth, bloodshot eyes and memory disturbances. Nutmeg was also reported to induce hallucinogenic effects, such as visual distortions and paranoid ideation. In the reports nutmeg intoxication took several hours before maximum effect was reached. Effects and after-effects lasted up to several days.

    Wheee!

  71. DuckDodgers says:

    CORRECTION, Californian Native American needed to soak their acorns for days or boil them and constantly change the water to remove the toxic gallotannin, which causes, “ulceration of the mouth, esophagus, and gastrointestinal tract” (Link).

    It required a lot of sophistication to eliminate that toxin and use it as a food source.

  72. DuckDodgers says:

    Probably the safest wild nut was the Pecan, and perhaps the Chestnut. Most wild Macadamia nuts are poisonous — thanks to cyanogenic glycosides. In general the overwhelming majority of nuts were poisonous and generally inedible for pre-agricultural societies.

    I’m aware that some wild nuts were consumed safely — and there is some archaeological evidence of nut-cracking tools. But, again, from a nutritional standpoint, I don’t entirely see why you would want to make them your staple food unless you had no other choice.

  73. sootedninjas says:

    Asians might be small BUT we are going to cut you up in a fight and bleed you dry. Just ask the huge bouncers in clubs that when a fight breaks out they hope to god that there are no Asians involved because they know better.

  74. “I’ve sat next to guys that run slaughter houses in Nebraska who’ve laughed at the range-fed BS on airplanes. They be out on the range, but, those weeks before slaughter? They’re getting their guts filled with as much corn and soy as possible.”

    Alright, now you lie, and so you’re dismissed. I fucking hate liars.

    Let me guess, their competitors told you that.

    I actually know different first hand, by visiting ranches and not sitting on airplanes over in flight cocktails and fish stories.

    So now go fuck off, Ed.

  75. @Roger

    Oh, that Megan “Jane Galt” McArdle takedown.

    Listen. I read her a few times back in 1993 when she had a blog called “From the Desk of Jane Galt.” Complete CW shill posing as edgy and independent, which made her perfect as a [now pro] journalist. I’m sure she’s written a few good things over the years, but I missed ‘em all when I could avoid them.

  76. I’ve been fortunate to be able to buy grassfed beef. 1/2 side per year. Grassfed beef from start to finish from rancher friends. When I’ve run low on grassfed liver, I would go to a local Meat/specialty store to stock up. The label advertised grassfed with a grain “finish”. I inquired. The man behind the counter had no explanation except to say they are grain fed the last month before slaughter. My suspicion? Max feed for max weight for max price…..while claiming grassfed.

  77. @Richard “Then go compare their average longevity with your ancestry.”, “Also, forget all about WWII and the war in the Pacific.”

    Disregarding ad-hominem – do you thing it’s fair to use region that suffered from nazism, holocaust, later stalinism and communism as a fair comparison for longevity studies? Could loosing few million of poeple in war and mass-killing had some influence with the expected longevity at birth?
    And then the communism with its persistent lack of product availability, including food rationing, but also low-quality medical care?

    And in what way central and eastern european longevity is bad compared to Asians who did have communism, eg Vietnam, China vs. this belt from Czech republic to Estonia (though Poland, Lithuania, Latvia)?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

    And by the way – where are those Asians with some magical “weight to strength ratio”, hauling those heavy objects on the strongman competition result list?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's_Strongest_Man

    I’m also not strong or large-muscled personally, or even by direct ancestry, just happen to live in a region with large numbers of strong people (including strongly built women), had also seen Asians – they don’t even compare, both in averages and maximums. Of course you can easily find Europeans that are weaker than average Asian etc. – normal distribution stuff.

  78. I think you missed my point. Asians are no weaklings, which was the implication I got.

    Moreover, longevity is great wherever you find it and for whatever reasons you can find. I suppose the contest ver who’d longest is inevitable, but we should endeavor to seek what’s possibly common because that’s more likely to lend to understanding the true causes (which are probably many and not simple).

  79. EatLessMoveMoore says:

    Wow. You actually did it!

    http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/whats-all-the-fuss-about-resistant-starch/21292

    No one gets Jimmy to do ANYTHING he doesn’t want to do. CarbSane would KILL for that kind of influence over ole Jimbo. Very impressive.

  80. MsMcGillicuddy and Kati :
    MsMcG, yes, we’re tracking especially when I saw your comment about longer cycles (and lol lol on Asians, Greeks and Andeans!).
    With hindsight, I’m thinking now that ‘cycling’ sounds kinda rigid?
    I’d say it’s really more like a seasonal variation, with RS throughout and with periodic fasting of several durations and types.
    Btw, the Eastern Orthodox schedule is incredible for this (eg. water fast days, or days with only fish and ‘above ground’ veggies, or a week with no bread, or ….) quite aside from their hocus-pocus :) .
    The authors of the original Cretan diet study later attributed the longevity and old-age vitality to that fasting habit as much as the olive-oil, fish and vegetables.
    CRON folks like to point to that (Caloric Restriction with Optimal Nutrition – Roy Waldorf’s legacy)

    Kati,
    what MsMcG said :). Also, about 16 hr fasts? If you do want to go longer, and trip some SIRT genes, I’m thinking that with any luck, may be you are just a victim of the hunger cycles that are normal during fasting.
    I know that if I do the dinner-to-dinner deal, it’s at 16-17 hrs and again at around 20-21 hrs that I am notably hungry. Expecting that, I make myself busy around those times and make sure I have a warm drink on hand (this really helps a lot, at least for me). I don’t know if that’s what’s happening for you or if you are strained from the exercise+CR, like you suspect, but thought I’d mention it in case it helps. Have you tried without exercise those days?

  81. LaFrite, parfait! Since you already noticed it alone, this appetite suppression for 4Tbsp in water some time before a meal also is ‘independent verification’ , without the suggestibility/bias problem – I love it.
    Now, about the extent of your hunger suppression…you must be related to my mémé ! She was from Alsace… which counts as being French, non? ;) . You see, the only one I know who reacted so strongly in terms of appetite suppression, is a cousin of mine from that side of the family. I thought her odd, until now :).

  82. @ELMM

    I saw your comment in the queue and I was cringing because I figured you’d find something wrong with it and I’d have to spank you. :)

    Here’s what I just sent in a private email to some folks:

    “As I made clear to him in the dustup and following, my interest was never that he Jimmy should definitely try it or he’s a pussy, my interest was in him opening the door for his following, so they feel it’s ok to try.

    “For better or worse, there are tons of sheeple and they won’t even consider it unless their authority says it’s OK to try, and he explicitly says ok to try it and report results. I think that’s reasonably courageous (counter balanced by him saying he won’t but not bad for our little public “negotiation”), considering I’ve been pumping him awesome testimonials for days, and this does undercut a “healthy low carb lifestyle.”

    “I’ll take it and caulk it up to a win and more momentum.”

    I also dropped a nice, conciliatory comment on his post.

    Now, see?

  83. DuckDodgers says:

    EatLessMoveMoore wrote:

    Wow. You actually did it!

    http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/whats-all-the-fuss-about-resistant-starch/21292

    But, I called it. He’s gearing up for a fight to protect his brand when he says

    Jimmy Moore wrote:

    A panel discussion with people who are both for and against resistant starches will be an important debate for the low-carb community to be exposed to.

    That ought to be a fun debate to watch. At the rate things are going, by April 2014 we will, hopefully, have some incredible stories to back it up. And, if so, it will be even harder for Jimmy’s crew to argue “against” RS.

  84. gabriella kadar says:

    Isn’t resistant starch in the Bible?

  85. sootedninjas says:

    I read Jimmy’s post. But the first link was to a blog post by Richard Andrews from Precision Nutrition. http://www.precisionnutrition.com/all-about-resistant-starch

    I mean really, FTA has 40+ post about it and tons of comments and debates not to mention people was actually doing it and posting results but FTA was only mentioned on the last paragraph of Jimmy’s blog post. Did Jimmy even bother to do just a little bit of research ?

    Richard Andrews did not even mention Unmodified Potato Starch at all. His #1 RS was, unrolled uncooked oats which has a puny 12 grams per 100 grams. That means you have to EAT CLOSE TO A POUND just to get close to the amount of RS that is available in 4 tbsp of Potato Starch. He DID NOT MENTION other excellent source like Plantain and Raw Green Banana. The way the blog is written it seems like he did not even tried RS at all. He cherry pick the research and put it all together in a blog post and became an instant expert. Oh Did I mention that he is a Nutritional Coach for hire.

    That is one thing the FTA is different from some of these so called expert blogs. Richard HAS NOTHING TO SELL YOU. He just wants us to be informed and healthy. He is passing along the wisdom because he actually tried it as opposed to this so called experts who just read a research, put it on a blog post, instant experts and basically just selling you his knowledge.

    Oh If I have not said on my other comments, Tatertot, Thank you very much. Much appreciated.

  86. sootedninjas says:

    forgot to mention about this too from RYAN Andrews post.

    “After someone starts eating more RS, it may take up to one year for gut hormones to adapt.”

    hmmm……

  87. @Soot

    It’s fine. It’s a good result and FAR more than anyone expected. I see everything. I know the score. I’m happy, so feel free to join me. :)

  88. sootedninjas says:

    it’s not a fair set-up on the panel discussion that he is planning later on. smells fishy to me.

    just saying. but in any case, as Stone Cold Steve Austin will say,
    it works baby ! that’s the bottom line.

  89. MsMcGillicuddy says:

    gabriella asks if resistant starch is in the Bible…I am not sure, but I do know the revolution will not be televised.

    ok, I woke up wacked this morning.

  90. Tater and Richard: just came across this.http://caloriesproper.com/?p=4121. Would love to see one of you respond with a counter-argument.

  91. Brian

    The post is indicative of anything where someone wishes to play the cast doubt and mixed results game, which one can do with anything. As well, it ignores the vast number of N=1 here. Moreover, it does nothing to address all the other benefits people have reported.

    Tim posted a very appropriate “pat on the head” comment which in my view was more than enough.

  92. Thanks Richard. Didn’t know Tim is aka: tatertot aka AKMan. Great response and I guess anytime something catches on folks like this come out of the woodwork. Quick q: ever try Trader Joes prepared and chilled lentils? Having some with eggs and avocado and it’s pretty good

  93. Brian

    Have not. I presume they’re caned. Currently, only caned beans I sometimes eat are garbanzos, so I’ll give those a try as well.

  94. The Natural says:

    @Brian,
    ” ever try Trader Joes prepared and chilled lentils?”

    Missing the other important step of proper prep: Soaking to rid of anti-nutrients such as phytates

    DIY in big batches and you get all the benefits + save time + save money.

    Lentils + Sunny Side Up Eggs + VCO or Ghee + Sea Salt + Cayenne = The bomb!!!

    T-Nat

  95. “Moreover, longevity is great wherever you find it and for whatever reasons you can find. ”

    In case of my ancestors from >=2 generations ago those who were both short and not particularly strong lived long lives, even to their 90s. Those who were taller or stronger didn’t, dying in their 70s or 60s. These are not the reasons I like, as I’m not short.

    There’s even some research about it:
    http://www.cracked.com/article_19964_5-scientific-reasons-youre-better-off-being-unattractive.html

  96. Any tips? I’ve been using 4TB of potato starch for the last 3 weeks and had good results except for last 4 days. I skipped a day and had some dessert 3 days back but since then I’ve gotten back into the routine but my early results of 80-83 morning blood sugar have been at 93-95 the last 3 days. My diet is low carb paleo with IF. Would love some tips on how to get it going in the other direction again.

  97. sootedninjas says:

    did you change the source of your PS ?

  98. Spanish Caravan says:

    Brian, you do realize that the morning fasting BG is influenced by how late you ate your last meal, how carby it was, late snacks, stress, and glucagon and other hormones released by the liver. So if it differs only by that much, it’s not that significant. If you have an iron-clad, set eating pattern with no late meals and snacks ever, it might tell something. But still 83 to 95 isn’t that big a jump. If I have a late meal, I expect my FBG to be between 95-110 and they’re. If I don’t eat anything 4 hours before hitting the sack, it’s in the 80s.

  99. sootedninjas says:

    Hormones that influence blood glucose level
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_sugar_regulation

    with all of the hormones involved, I would think that cortisol has the most profound effect. Cortisol rises as the morning starts and lowers as the evening progresses.

  100. @Brian – Seriously, don’t sweat FBG too much, rather go by A1C. If A1C is low, or trending low, you are golden. FBG is a fun metric for non-diabetics, but doesn’t mean a whole lot when it’s consistently under 100. If you were hitting the 130′s, like I was, then you might have a reason to track it closely.

    To assess your insulin sensitivity, a better use of those spendy strips would be to eat a big ol’ tater, and take BG readings every 10 minutes for 3 hours. Then do the same thing after 2-3 months of supplementing with potato starch.

  101. gabriella kadar says:

    Spanish, I would presume that hypopnea and sleep apnea would result in a higher morning BG as well. Send me a picture of these people, front and profile. I can pretty well determine if these factors would be playing a role.

  102. Very thoughtful responses. Thanks so much for advice. I have some new info to share since my post earlier this morning.
    As I stated, I tested my FBG when I got up this morning – I awoke about 90 min earlier than I wanted because Santa woke my kids up early. :) When I tested at 6:15 am, it came in at 93-94 which made me send out the note. I then had my cafe americano with heavy whipping cream, a probiotic and my PS with water and then at 9:30 am after the kiddies opened their presents, I tested again and it was 83. That made me feel better.

    I then just had a beer, liver, pepper and onions and just a few potato wedges for dinner tonight at 6 pm and set the timer for 2 hrs to test my BG and it just came in at 77! so that is where all the advice is spot on and has eased my stress. I’m wondering if testing BG as soon as one rises is a good barometer but rather just find a couple spots throughout the day where you know you have not eaten for 2-3 hrs and see if it is where you expect (for me high70s-low 80s). I don’t want to find myself hanging too much on this number based on what it looks like as soon as I wake up – and from the sounds of what Spanish Caravan and Tatertot said to don’t sweat it too much. I also read an article from Chris Kresser where he says folks who are LC (less than 75g) often have higher morning blood sugar (95-100).

    sootedninjas: I did switch brands from Ener-G PS to Bobs. I’m finding that both are working – both give nice bouts of gas and reduce my hunger and I’m actually thinking Ener-G might be a bit better. I’m going to give it another shot. It’s pretty cheap on Amazon (6lbs for $20). I guess the conditions in which it is manufactured is fully gluten-free, etc.

  103. sootedninjas says:

    “I’m wondering if testing BG as soon as one rises is a good barometer but rather just find a couple spots throughout the day where you know you have not eaten for 2-3 hrs and see if it is where you expect (for me high70s-low 80s).”

    I also wonder about this too. Cortisol is part of the circadian that wakes us up in the morning and it causes for BG to rise. I guess is how high it rise will depend on how low your BG gets just before cortisol kicks in to wake you up.

    Thoughts anyone ?

    “I also read an article from Chris Kresser where he says folks who are LC (less than 75g) often have higher morning blood sugar (95-100).”

    I experienced this too. I’ve been tracking my FBG since I started RS. It’s too early for me to make any conclusions BUT what I found is that in the 1st 10 days my FBG is between 95-110 upon waking up. In the last few days it starts to trend downwards to the low 90′s. Too early to tell.

  104. gabriella kadar says:

    Brian’s morning BG is not high. Aside from Cortisol, there are other factors. Is it really a fasting BG? Fasting is 14 hours since previous meal. Is he overweight and having hypopneas or apneas? That will give a higher morning BG.

    A morning fasting BG at 120 is trouble.

  105. @soot

    My wife has experienced this. Immediately upon waking, maybe 110, but then she basically tests 3-4 more times and within 10-15 minutes, down to 90.

  106. sootedninjas says:

    @Richard

    that’s right. It alarmed me at first when I noticed it THEN decided to test it for one day before a meal and 3x after the meal. It was like high 80′s before and went to low 100′s and trended down on the 3rd test to like 92′s. That gave me a warm and fussy feeling that everything is just going to be fine.

    But as I have mentioned in the last few days I have been waking up to the low 90′s :)

    I gotta be proactive because a handful of my close (1st degree) relatives have passed away because of diabetes complication.

  107. gabriella kadar says:

    Richard, she’d need to fast 14 hours for a real fasting BG. That’s what the labs want. If, like most of us, you eat later in the evening, then it’s pretty hard to be 14 hours no food upon waking.

  108. Spanish Caravan says:

    If you wanna track FBG in the morning as your barometer of RS effectiveness, you have to be very regular with your meal time. I’m talking about your supper and anything after. If you have a huge carby meal, that could still affect your morning FBG even if you ate nothing afterwards.

    I’d give 4-5 hours of vacuum between my dinner and bed time where nothing but vitamins and medications are taken. And keep your carbs about the same level for every dinner. Then, check your morning FBG. Then, that might tell you something. There’s too much noise in the FBG. The dawn phenomenon will take place if you have a snack or you took a big bolus of carbs for dinner.

    Bottom line: (1) if you VLC, you might have physiological insulin resistance so your FBG may never dip below 90. (2) If you don’t VLC and you’re diabetic/prediabetic and you’re a snacker/big carby eater, then you’re susceptible to the dawn phenomenon where hormones like glucagon make your liver to release glucose into the blood stream at dawn, raising your FBG. (3) In some, especially T1′s, your body might just raise FBG in response to night time hypoglycemia.

  109. sootedninjas says:

    My meal cut-off is between 6PM and 8PM depending on how busy I get but usually 6PM. Bedtime around midnight, so by the time I test for FBG @ least 15 hours fasting. Relatively low carb on some days BUT I don’t sweat it anymore. If I feel like a little dense, heavy, sluggish or bloated then I lay off the carbs a little if NOT then a ton more of veggies, rice or sweet potatoes. But definitely carb heavy after a heavy workout.

  110. gabriella kadar says:

    HgA1c is probably the best test overall as an indicator. That’s 90 days worth provided your red blood cells are normal.

  111. Spanish Caravan says:

    That’s how T2 diabetics fall through the crack. You make them fast for 16 hours and their FBG is in the 90s. Whoa! You’re normal! That impaired FBG only shows up after your post-prandial BG crumbles. It could take more than a year after your post-prandial insulin resistance is at the diabetic level, that your fasting rises above 125. In the age of HMOs and Obamacare, you have to twist your PCP’s arms to test your HbA1c or administer an OGTT. That’s why when diabetics are finally diagnosed, most have pins and needles.

  112. Dr. Curmudgeon Gee says:

    @gabriella

    interesting, what if your RBC sre not normal? will that skew HbA1C reading? (higher or lower)?

    thanks.

  113. gabriella kadar says:

    Dr. Curmudgeon Gee: yes. Patients with for example Thalassemia trait have a lower life expectancy of their red blood cells. Fructosamine is a better test because it does not rely on red blood cells. Vets use this test also.

    Patients with red cell abnormalities wherein the life expectancy of the red cells is significantly lower than in normals will test lower on the HgA1c.

    I would also hazard a guess that patients with hypochromic microcytic RBCs due to iron deficiency anemia also have skewed results.

  114. gabriella kadar says:

    Spanish, that is disgusting.

    But I’m hearing that these HMOs are also doing diagnostic screenings and insisting that patients comply with various dietary recommendations or get their insurance benefits cut.

    Mind you this blanket statement on statin prescribing and no further LDL/HDL testing is highly alarming. Especially since high LDL can be the manifestation of other problems like hypothyroidism. Taking a statin sure won’t make a hypothyroid patient euthyroid.

  115. Dr. Curmudgeon Gee says:

    @gabriella

    thanks. interesting,

    i vaguely remember that Chris Kresser mentioned once that people with longer RBC life would tested higher HbA1c.

    so it follows that the opposite is also true.

    regards,

  116. Would Iove to know if yacon syrup is RS?

    Can I put some yacon on my bacon? ;)

    Sounds like similar qualities.

    The syrup contains up to 50% of FOS (fructooligosacharides). The consumption of FOS does not increase blood glucose.

  117. Would Iove to know if yacon syrup is RS?

    Can I put some yacon on my bacon? ;)
    From Wikipedia.

    Sounds like similar qualities.

    The syrup contains up to 50% of FOS (fructooligosacharides). The consumption of FOS does not increase blood glucose.

  118. ” In the age of HMOs and Obamacare, you have to twist your PCP’s arms to test your HbA1c or administer an OGTT.”

    A home test kit for A1c is available at Walmart for about $9, Relion brand. In my experience and those of other diabetics I’ve heard mention it, it is accurate.

  119. MsMcGillicuddy says:

    Yacon has a great flavor, like a light version of molasses.

Trackbacks

  1. […] I don't know exactly why I went after my longtime friend so publicly and sternly (here and here). I suppose I like to think it's because that's what I got out of listening to hundreds of his […]

Speak Your Mind

*