Latest in Paleo 97: Tatertot Tim Steele and I, on The Gut Biome and Resistant Starch

Angelo "Scorsese" Coppola (it's 2h, 15m long) dubbed it Perfect Resistance because we think Paul and Shou-Ching Shih Jaminet's Perfect Health Diet is probably the most perfect "compromise" between rigid Paleo and SAD. I explain why in the podcast...Plus, it puts the entire low-carb community in the short pants they deserve to be in.

I'll begin with an aside, just because that's the way I am. The link to the show is the first in the above paragraph, so feel free to just not mind my aside ranting about low-carb, and skip ahead. Otherwise, it'll be linked again below, saving you from the horror of up-scrolling.

...So yesterday, I had a breakfast of 1 1/2 cup of cooked, frozen and thawed pinto beans with a fried egg on top (you'll have to listen to the podcast to understand why cooking, freezing, and thawing is relevant—no spoilers). By the numbers, that's 68 grams of carbohydrate. At the 1.5 hour mark, my blood glucose was 107 mg/dL and I posted a pic of the reading on Facebook.

I get this comment late last night after 16 hours straight in front of the confuser, while detoxing with a bit of Ron Swanson, Parks & Recreation catchup on NetFlix. Yea. Hooked.

I'm far from that's not very nice to the man but, I'm projecting; because honestly, I attribute this utter ignorance to the low carb community being afraid of its own shadow.

"With a carb load like that, a spike to 130-140 is perfectly physiologically normal. This is part of the reason why LC is so bullshit. They accept almost no spike in BG, which is just plain stupid ignorance talking."

I don't understand how the occurrence of a spike to 130-140 being physiologically normal is part of the reason that LC is bullshit. If there's any logic to that conclusion it escapes me. My thinking is an elevated BG causes damage and personally I don't care if it happens for only an hour or two, I'm not going to eat that food. The way you're using RS seems like a fairly crappy "get out of jail free" card - I'd rather take RS and enjoy even lower BG levels and not as an excuse to eat marginal foods."

I have an idea. We need to come up with a LOW HEART RATE human activity protocol. In it, no heart rate above 100 will be acceptable, everyone will be prettified of it—like savages during an eclipse of the sun. It will not matter if it's a brief "flex test" or something called "exercise." Hikes up any hill are plain out. Don't even ask.

We'll just say that any heart rate above 100 bpm causes damage, so nobody goes there. Those above 100 chronically are deemed Heartabetic, and anyone else who goes there too often are deemed pre-heartabetic.

Don't worry, there's drugs coming soon. Moreover, the LOW HEART RATE folks have natural interventions, so you don't need to take the meds. You basically sit on your ass all day, but you never watch TV or film dramas—and horror shows are like the sort of indulgence that requires you to get yourself into an induced coma for a week or two to recover and repair your damaged heart.

If you have any problems with the protocol at all, the solution is easy: your heart rate is not low enough!

You just need to fuck off, more!

~~~

...Alright, back on track and I have a question for you. What happens when these ugly faces get together and collaborate?

TimRich
Tim & Rich

The fairly complete answer is going to cost you about 2 hours and 15 minutes of your very long life. You may have already read some or all of the 50+ posts on resistant starch we've collaborated on. You may have even participated in the comments, adding enormously to the value Tim & I have been tireless in trying to bring to you (especially him; it's '30-below' and dark almost 24/7 in North Pole, AK)

So, this could be your payoff or your introduction, depending upon where you are or just falling in. It could be TL;DR. It's all up to you, as it always is at Free the Animal. Everyone always gets to march off on any trail out of camp and away from the fire pit they want. The only thing is that if you want help, it's not guaranteed, and you're going to have to ask nicely to get it because there are no laws, no force. Nobody can be compelled to help you, ever, under any circumstances.

Here's a shoot from hip, rough rundown of what Tim and I cover:

  1. Since this is Tim's first time on any podcast, he gets the red carpet and steals the intro for the show. Good call by Angelo on that.
  2. We go into the gut biome in general, the 100 trillion inside of you that constitute 90% of your total cells.
  3. How does food play a role in all of it?
  4. Are there any tricks we can have up our sleeves?
  5. As much about Resistant Starch as you can put into a podcast. It's all basically "first in the world."
  6. We're writing a book together. It began in the first week in December. Find out our progress in a short month or so.

Latest in Paleo 97: Perfect Resistance

I listened yesterday and was again amazed by the production value this guy puts into it that, to my mind, sets the standard.

angelo1
Creator, Producer, Host, Editor, and Technician Angleo Coppola

Go listen now, or download it for your commute. Tell me what you love or hate about it in comments. I'm presuming I won't get comments from those indifferent.

Free The Animal is supported by readers like yourself shopping Amazon and CLICKING HERE to do so. Costs you nothing but sure helps out around here quite a lot. Always appreciated.

Comments

  1. Great interview.

    And whoa, first time I’ve listened to Angleo Coppola. He’s sure good at interviewing and post-production.

    It’s about as good as Radiolab (the best produced podcast out there, IMO).

  2. You joke, Richard, but there are plenty of low heart rate advocates in the endurance sports community, spouting off about all sorts of deleterious effects incurred by going anaerobic too often. Their setpoint tends to be 180 minus your age (Maffetone’s “MAF” formula), rather than 100 – but the panic, and the lack of evidence to support it, is similar.

  3. There is another extreme when it comes to Blood Sugar, and that is hypoglycemia. While it’s true that chronically high blood sugar (anything over 126) can cause damage to the body over time (and I’m not sure if this is due to sugar in the blood itself, or whatever caused the metabolic breakdown in the first place), blood sugar in the range of 40 or 50 can do much more serious damage, and that includes coma and death. Is no very low carber worried about the possibility that the liver can’t keep up the gluconeogenic demand, and possibly burning out, in the same way they warn about excess carbs burning out pancreatic beta cells?

    • Wolfstriked says:

      @John…..I watched a video with Phinney and Volek where they mentioned a study on hypoglycemia and ketosis.The study pointed out that when you administer straight insulin with no added carbs you can kill a person as there blood glucose drops but when in ketosis the participants showed no ill effects.That plus there hasn’t really been any cases reported of people dying from lack of gluconeogenesis and LC eating.

    • It is the sugar in your blood. Otherwise, how would you explain the complications people with type 1 diabetes experience if they consistently have high blood sugars. The reason for their high blood sugars is not a messed up metabolic system but a non-working pancreas.

  4. Debbie Lindstrom says:

    Brilliant! I found you through Angelo Coppola, who is also brilliant. (I hope your listeners start listening every week.) Best 2-1/2 hours I’ve spent in a long time. Planning on making coconut milk smoothies to help down the potato starch and lowering my blood glucose levels.

  5. Yea, it’s about 130ish at peak in normal healthy people, with outliers 2SDs up to 160 and down to 100. I’m guessing consistent with data from glucose tests.

    Evidently, LCers are only happy with being 2 standard deviation outliers. Good luck with that.

  6. Is the 1 1/2c of pinto beans a measured from precooked? A cup and a half cooked pinto beans only comes out to ~67g carbohydrates.

    http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/legumes-and-legume-products/4430/2

  7. I had a cooked and cooled entire potato today, smothered in full-fat sour cream, mixed with a tablespoon of potato starch. BG spiked…from 97…to 107.

    It’s almost eerie when that happens. Or doesn’t happen, or something.

    Good podcast. Angelo is a hell of a producer.

  8. I can’t wait to fold laundry and listen to this (my main motivator for staying consistent with housework is “saving” all my podcasts up and only listening if I’m working around the house)!

  9. Wonderful podcast!

    Some more background info about human microbiome in these TEDx talks:

    “Jeroen Raes is a bionaut, he researches the human microbiome. What he’s discovered in his lab at the Flanders Institute of Biology could herald a major breakthrough not just in gastro-intestinal medicine, but in our fundamental knowledge of the human biology. It turns out that there are only three different types of gut bacteria and, just like blood groups, the three types are totally independent of race, sex, age or diet. Such a baffling finding leads to more research of course and Raes is currently testing his idea on a larger group . The implications for Crohn’s Disease or obesity could be dramatic.”
    http://youtu.be/Af5qUxl1ktI

    “Elaine Hsiao … studied neuroimmune mechanisms underlying the pathogenesis of neurodevelopmental disorders and uncovered a role for the commensal microbiota in regulating autism-related behaviors, metabolism, and intestinal physiology. … She is currently studying the mechanisms by which microbes modulate host production of neuroactive molecules and aims to better understand how the human microbiota influences health and disease.”
    http://youtu.be/FWT_BLVOASI

  10. sootedninjas says:

    I’m still dumbfounded with the “second meal effect” RS is having on me.

    So I did a really heavy HIT workout which includes 16 minute (30s x 90s x 8 rep) HIIT recumbent bike sprints and about an hour of lifting. how hard is my sprint ? well I’m 52 and 163 lbs. if the equipment is accurate which should be because the gym installed new ones, top HR 155, METs 10.8 @ Level 4 resistance.

    Not sure if you can consider it fasted. I had a mini bulletproof coffee in the morning, 3 hours before the workout I had 2 tbs of PS and about 30 minutes before the workout I had a pre-workout shake of 10g whey isolate and 10g creatine + 1 cup coffee. that’s it NO LUNCH at all.

    Would you consider this fasted ?

    Anyway, within 30 mins post workout shake is 20g whey, 15g MALTODEXTRIN and 1 tbs of Raw Honey. within 45 minutes of shake – Post workout meal 1.5 cup garlic fried rice, 2 eggs, small plate of green veggies w/ 1 tbs of butter, 1 avocado, 1/4 lb bacon, 2/3 lb ground beef AND 1 lb of sweet potatoes 30 mins after meal.

    1 hour and 45 minutes after I decided what the heck just for fun let me check my BG. holy smokes it was 86. I wish I took my BG before and after the workout.

    The last time I did a Carb Backload 3 days ago I woke to a FBG of 83. will see in the morning.

  11. Rich and Tater:

    Thanks for keeping at the RS point. I’ve been paleo for years now but have never been happy with my gut and how it responds. I’m excited to experiment with RS.

    I live in a place difficult to get many of the RS products that I can eat. I thought I was lucky in finding unmodified PS, but I have a really bad reaction to it. I started getting boils and acne like Tara Grant describes in “The Hidden Plague”. I’m a male in my mid 30s and I never had skin conditions like this (usually dry skin and eczema). I’m probably a rare case. Nightshades never really agreed with me and I have cut them out over the last couple years.

    I took the UPS for 3 days, no more than 6 TBS. Developed gas after stopping and it’s noxious and continuing.

    Do you think this is likely due to a “bad bug” in my gut somewhere, or? I’m going to supplement with soil probiotics when I get a chance and give plantain flour a shot. Right now I’m trying to clear some of it out with charcoal so the skin reactions will abate.

    BTW for those who are looking, Nordic brand potato starch is unmodified even though it doesn’t say so on the box.

    Downloading the podcast now!

  12. DameLiberty says:

    Rich – I know this off topic, but I asked a friend who is a Cornell Univ neuroscientist about potato starch causing vivid dreams and here is his response:

    “It looks like high quantities of resistant starch increase insulin sensitivity in healthy adults and increase fatty acid synthesis. The following is speculation on my part: The increase in insulin sensitivity may result in better control of circulating glucose, keeping your brain functioning at peak performance through the night, either causing you to lucid dream or making you better remember these dreams (that we all have, but most don’t remember well). Also, fatty acids act as messengers in brain tissue, not in the typical neurotransmitter sense, but as signals that can pass between cells and through cell membranes, sometimes over long distances. Some of these fatty acids could find targets in neural tissue and cause up- or downregulation of processes specific to your “symptoms.” Fatty acids are known to do this. So think of it as the starch causing an intrinsic drug release in your body.

    In that case, you would actually be hacking the system. ‘

    • gabriella kadar says:

      Great speculative explanation. ‘Hacking the system': love it. Even though there’s dreams after dreams after dreams, none of them are the tiresome on and on type dreams. The car turned into a beagle with a long tail pipe attached to its collar and I figured the dog should be easier to catch because of the 8 foot tail pipe trailing behind the dog, but no……….I wake up and remember many dreams that morph into other dreams. I’m aware that this is happening while asleep. I’m not ‘fessing up to anymore of the X rated dreams but they are pretty powerful. And they still happen just, thankfully, not every single night. All those various peekaboo underwear on that advertising seemed to have an effect on the subconscious, Richard. Except the dream peekaboo was somewhat much more interesting than the products being advertised.

      Didn’t take any RPS tonight. I am neurohacking a blank sleep experience for tonight.

  13. By the way Richard, I’ve worked in radio and audio for the past ten years, and I’ll second everything you’ve said about Angelo Coppola. Technically, his is far and away the best of the paleo podcasts that I’ve heard. His content is on point as well, and he always keeps the show moving, which is very important. Even when he’s discussing topics without a guest, he still makes it interesting, although as most podcasters have figured out, listening to a good conversation tends to be the most compelling. Listening and taking part in podcasts has been awsome, as I’ve find out that a very small crew of people (anywhere from 1-20) can produce content that can rival mainstream radio in every respect.

    • gabriella kadar says:

      John, that is an excellent critique. You wrote what I was thinking but didn’t know how to write it as well as you did. The podcast is good and even though it’s long, as you say, it’s a perfectly coordinated conversation which kept me actively listening. Very well done.

  14. Tim,

    I saw this mentioned in the CaveManning blog post but there was no discussion as of yet:

    http://www.cell.com/abstract/S0092-8674(13)01550-X

    This was the first I’ve heard of intestinal gluconeogenesis (IGN) and it’s fascinating to me that it seems an important mechanism to regulate (improve) insulin sensitivity. My simplistic view on it is that when IGN is lacking, the body probably becomes physiologically insulin resistant and part of that response is to upregulate liver gluconeogenesis, which is probably not optimal on many levels (encourages protein catabolism via cortisol, implicated in NAFLD, etc.).

    We knew SCFA’s were important, but now it seems we might know one of the major reasons why, and this particular reason (IGN) came out of left field for me. Also, could explain a lot of the reason why on-going gut microbiota dysregulation may be such a big part of why most dietary intervention (like LC) never “cures” blood sugar management problems.

    What do you think of it?

    • Dave, do have full text you can email over (email on my About page)? If not, I think Tim and I have someone who can usually get us FTs. I think the SupVersity guy covered that on an FB entry the other day as well, so I’d like to look more closely.

      One speculation I have is this may be why some LCers have BG increases on PS, or, BG doesn’t budge much. I was in the latter category if not both, at times. So, too physiologically IR and the added glucose from that production pathway wasn’t enough to kick things out. What finally got me started getting lower readings was upping the safe starches, like rice, beans, taters. While I’ve eaten that stuff over the last few years, I and the wife were still pretty LC overall. And now her FBG has been coming down too.

    • Thanks Richard – unfortunately I don’t have / cannot locate full text for that study.

      And I agree, based on personal experience, that a PHD type of setup is closer to optimal than V/LC type of diets. Long story short I was diagnosed w/ T2D 4 years ago and basically went 3 1/2 years V/LC and was able to control BG, getting down to 5.8 HbA1C (exercise was also a factor), but still have “pre-diabetic” FBG levels. I’ve slowly migrated over to including some safe starches like you mention and feel better overall, but my HbA1C seems to have stabilized at around 6.3 now and I still get wicked spikes unless I eat the starches w/ a lot of fat, and make sure to consume some of the fat first. Other than that at 49 y/o I’m in better shape now than anytime after my early 20’s.

      I think the PS/RS may well be the “missing link” for me, and perhaps for many, many others. No doubt you and Tim are really on to something here that has and will help many people. I’ve tried it (PS) twice for a couple weeks each time with no tangible improvement in FBG, but I realize both of those were not really a fair test (too short), especially since I now suspect more and more that I’ve had some underlying gut dysbiosis going on both before the V/LC days and probably made worse as a result of them. Overt gut symptoms were really helped along by gluten restriction early on, but I still don’t think my gut is in the best shape. I started PS again this week and have resolved to stick with it (along w/ PHD style eating) for at least a couple of months this time along w/ trying a few probiotics to help re-seed things.

      As to my original post, I’m just really interested in underlying mechanisms and am hoping you and/or Tim can shed some light on the results of the study. Also wanted to pass it along as it seems to be yet more evidence for RS consumption.

    • Spanish Caravan says:

      6.3 is way too high. If 5.8 was the best you could do on VLC, then you might not be producing much insulin. How’s your C-Peptide?

      I’m for safe starch consumption but if you’re an insulin-depleted T2 or perhaps T2 becoming T1, then you need to look at some medication. What, if any, are you taking?

    • Dave,

      Paul also recommends vinegar and fiber as well as fat to slow down the blood sugar response to safe starches. And always in the context of a whole meal.

      I think for some of us, no amount of potato starch is going to help without doing those things.

      And for me, no matter what I eat, a consistent exercise schedule seems to be essential to keep BG in target range on a daily basis. Am still working on that

    • In my case, I’m pretty sure it’s primarily a ‘signaling problem’, and the cause of that is what I’m on the hunt for. OGTT a couple of months ago indicated I’m producing enough insulin to actually go hypo before the 2 hour mark, just that the insulin is late to the party. Meds at this point for 6.3? W/o exhausting other reasonable alternatives? No way, especially since I can out-perform the great majority of 18-22 year old athletes (I’m just about 50), am aging gracefully, am otherwise very healthy, and if needed can use V/LC to keep things under tight control. I just got done listening to the entire podcast and it sounds as if Tim and I generally share quite a bit of history as far as diagnosis, severity and attempts at dietary remediation so I plan to stay along this track for a while and see what pans out.

    • Spanish Caravan says:

      Just wanna add that if you don’t produce much insulin to begin with, IGN won’t be of much help either. If you VLCed for that long, your beta cells might be in a dumpster. We have to pull our heads out of a hole in the ground and confess that hyperglycemia alone does not kill off beta cells. Seriously, I’ve seen people improve their C-Peptides on a PHD-type safe starch diet. No one was cured of diabetes but becoming insulin sensitive and lowering HbA1c is possible for diabetic on a safe-starch/RS diet. On a VLC diet, I personally did between 5.4-5.8. On a safe-starch 100-150 gram diet, I’m at 5.1-5.4. My fasting C-Peptide isn’t that high. It was like 0.7 at diagnosis but I’m now at 1.2.

    • Spanish Caravan says:

      How was your fasting c-peptide and FBG reading? That will be very revealing in your case. And how low was your so called “hypoglycemia”? It’s easy to misinterpret these things. I don’t belong to the blood sugar mafia led by Dr. Bernstein, Feinman, Taubes, Perlmutter, etc. But if your long-term diabetic maintenance is at 6.3, you will develop complications. First, peripheral neuropathy, then, ED. Then very slow and subtle kidney dysfunction. 6.3 is mean BG of 135. Your post prandials are well over 170, probably into the 200s.

      I can understand your antipathy to medicine. Metformin isn’t gonna do you any good since you’re lean. But you need to become insulin sensitive, if your CP is over 1.0. If it’s 0.5 < , you might need insulin. VLCing' may have kept your A1c "tight" at 5.8. But there is something wrong if the best you can do is 5.8. Even T1s on an indefinite honeymoon can do that.

    • 6.3 mmol/L = ~113 mg/dL right? Not sure where you’re getting the mean BG of 135, especially since my FBG is usually between 105 and 120? Post-prandial is rarely over 140-150 with current meals. So given my FBG, the dip between meals, below 100 from 2PM to evening meal and post-prandial of 150 or below, ~113 seems pretty reasonable for an average. I agree there’s something off-kilter, just probably not beta cell exhaustion. And I’m not gonna panic over 6.3, especially given the potential side effects of any drug other than metformin, or trying to regulate exogenous insulin.

      I will check into getting a CP test run. I looked on my favorite on-line clinical testing site and don’t see anything there. Would you happen to have a link to one I can order and get run on my own (in my state I can still get bloodwork done w/o a Dr’s order)?

    • My bad – I see HbA1C of 6.3 equates to about 7.4 mmol/L = ~134 mg/dL. You are right, that is too high of an average in my opinion also. I will get the CP test run as soon as I can arrange and re-evaluate from there. Thanks for the heads-up.

  15. Great podcast! Very informative. On a bit of a side note, I’m on a week long round of antibiotics for a finger infection. I’ve upped my dose of PS to 6 Tbs (3 upon waking, 3 before bed) and doubled my D3. The same benefits of the PS seem to continue (sleeping like a baby except to pee after about 4 hours of sleep but than right back to sleep) despite being on the antibiotics. Granted this is only day 2 of 7, but we shall see if the benefits continue through the whole 7 days.

  16. +1 Dave, that’s a helluva interesting new paper.

  17. Marybeth says:

    Tim,
    I listened to the podcast and noticed that you touched on psyllium husk with PS. You had mentioned to me about using 1 1/2 teaspoons of psyllium husk with my 2 T of PS (I am the person that has RA and had been doing the antibiotic protocol with minocycline). But wouldn’t that be counterintuitive as the PS and the pribiotic would just be eliminated through TMI with the psyllium husk. I purchsed some psyllium husk yesterday and did use it last night when I took my PS. Thanks so much for the help.

  18. ChocoTaco369 says:

    This isn’t entirely on topic, but the qualm I have with Jaminet is his stance on pulse and resting metabolism. He seems to buy into the idea that the contained energy inside of a human is finite, and that a fasting resting metabolism equals a shorter lifespan.

    Awhile back, he got into a war of words with those in the Ray Peat crowd over resting metabolism and heart rate. Jaminet’s stance was that because fat supports a slower pulse and metabolic rate than carbohydrate from sugar and starch, it is smarter to have the low calorie intake, slow pulse and cold body temperature because it equates to greater longevity. The Peat crowd took the exact opposite stance – that a diet lower in fat and higher in carbohydrate yielding a faster resting metabolism, faster resting heart rate and more body heat equates with the rapidly-recovering metabolism of youth, leading to a longer lifespan.

    I don’t understand how Jaminet could have possibly taken that stance. Even if we entertain that a slow metabolism equates to longer life, who would want that kind of life, spending your last years rotting away in a chair? My argument may be a straw man, but when he has THAT as a basic, fundamental belief for the human metabolism, it becomes difficult to take his stances on more specific area regarding human health seriously.

    • Chaco:

      Your 1st paragraph is in contradiction to your other two, as I see it.

      FWIW, I think the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard is that we should live in misery in order to live longer in misery. Chronic discomfort or pain is awful, and I’ll happily spot 10 years in order to enjoy life better and live the fuck out of it.

      So far, just a reasonable amount of carbs have seen to that. No more cold hands/feet from October through April.

      Yea, I know I’m on death’s doorstep, probably.

    • ChocoTaco369 says:

      I don’t think anything is contradictory in my statement. The way I understood Jaminet, it was like equating your lifespan as a candle. If the flame is your metabolism, a smaller flame would burn the candle down more slowly, resulting in a longer lifespan. Consequently, a larger flame would burn the candle more quickly, resulting in a shorter lifespan.

      I strongly disagree with that notion. I do not believe human energy is finite, and a faster metabolism – while more demanding of energy – also increases the human body’s rate of cell repair. A faster metabolism, while demanding more energy, also increases the body’s ability to heal and repair itself, thereby INCREASING the size of the candle in proportion, if not greater than, the flame. I do not understand how Jaminet can think a more youthful metabolism yields a shorter lifespan.

      I found the original argument I was referencing. Jaminet vs Kim. You may want to read it, Richard. Tell me what you think.

      http://www.andrewkimblog.com/2013/02/response-to-dr-paul-jaminets-rebuttal.html

    • Your fault, Choco:

      “that a fasting resting metabolism equals a shorter lifespan.”

      …Which I took to mean fasting, not fast, so opposite meaning. :)

      Meh, as to the rest of it, I’m satisfied that I don’t have cold hands or feet. Could give a runny shit what my body temperature is. I don’t eat or conduct my life in some quest for longevity. I try to keep it to real food and enjoyable, get my gut bugs fed which is easy and enjoyable (I love the rice & beans and I’ve adapted to beans such that they no longer cause above normal quotidien fartage). I’m an eat, drink and be merry kinda guy and furthermore, have zero qualms with checking out my own self when life isn’t any fun, anymore, chronically.

      That said, I think LC is dumb for most people, and beyond that don’t really have a concern with someone at PHD’s ratios of 50/30/20 f/c/p or someone that’s 20/60/20, or anything else for that matter. i would advice a real food approach (including dairy and legumes and rice if they work), and then enjoy life and don’t sweat stuff you erroneously believe you have great control over, but don’t really (like how long you’re going to live). My favored approach is live well for as long as you do. Then die quickly.

    • ChocoTaco369 says:

      Fuck me, my fault. That was supposed to say “faster resting metabolism.” Typos.

    • It’s OK. Given the context, I couldn’t just assume what you meant. I honestly was confused.

    • “I’m an eat, drink and be merry kinda guy…”

      Speaking of drink, without doing a search, didn’t you mention you went without for a while? How long of a dry period? Any noticeable effects?

      Are you consuming alcohol again? How much, and any noticeable effects?

      Sorry for the interrogation, just curious about your results, since my drinking habits are probably similar to yours ;-)

    • Joe:

      Laf. No worries, fellow drunk.

      Yea, it’s a post right about the first of Jan. I did go a substantial time, went alright, but given the Niners, combined with the book project (from the Latest in Paleo Podcast) that has me keeping the weirdest hours since I stood deck watches n a ship underway, just wasn’t feasible (any excuse works, right?).

      I do want to take it up, though. I’ll do a follow up post come February about how I failed.

  19. You have spoken about Uncle Ben’s rice in the past but in the supermarkets I go to it’s difficult to find the actual “Converted” rice that is in fact the parboiled stuff that is good for RS. I was confused for a long time as I thought you meant the instant stuff – like Minute Rice – or Uncle Ben’s version of same. Then I found Smart and Final stocking parboiled rice in 10 pound bags for less than $8. Wiki links to Instant and Parboiled rice just FYI: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant_rice http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parboiled_rice

    • Mart, I “cook” my parboiled rice in the slow cooker, that way you don’t have to boil it. It only takes about 2 hours. Cooled in the frdige and then eaten cold with a warm stew. I’m hoping this will keep the RS content higher.

    • Mart, the Fart & Smile near us carries Uncle Bens original converted as well.

  20. What is shortest time after cooking a potato and letting it cool will you get the benefit of RS?
    What is best way to store PS after opening the bag? Any benefit to storing it in the fridge?
    Thanks

    • SK

      General rule is overnight in the fridge. No special storage required. I keep it in a tupperware out & about.

    • Hi Richard, I really appreciate all the info you and Tim have been providing on RS and have started taking it daily (it’s true what you said somewhere about taking it on an empty stomach; I don’t get the gas when I do it that way) but recently I saw a study that I “think” concluded the RS doesn’t have the same benefit in women with regards to insulin sensitivity. However, I’m not fluent in the lingo researchers use and may be wrong. I’ll put up the link and hopefully you, or one of the more knowledgeable commenters (especially women who have been using the potato starch and measuring their BG levels) can offer some clarification on whether the benefits are roughly the same for men and women. Here’s the link:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3301990/
      Thanks for any help you can offer :)

  21. Hi guys, loved the podcast and I agree with others here, it’s very well done!

    Question: how do you use the green plantain flour? Do you drink it? :-/ I’m assuming you don’t heat it in any way. Is it mostly tasteless like PS?

    Regarding parboiled or converted rice, are there any sources other than Uncle Bens, which is high in arsenic? I googled it, but nothing comes up in the US.

    Any thoughts for those of us with already “leaky guts” or IBS/IBD who can’t handle raw veggies or large salads yet? I’m eating cooked, steamed non-starchy veggies and need a low fodmap diet to heal, but I handle the RS/PS well. Usually, take my probiotic with my PS. Can I get back on track with limited plant-based foods?

  22. I have been following Tatertot for months and I find his findings and studies on gut health facinating. I am seeing improvements in my health and I am forever grateful. My only question to you is can the RS be done with raw potatoes. What would equal 4 Tbls of potato starch. I am wondering because not everyone has access to ps. thank you again for starting this wonderful experiment. Let’s hope it proves seffective long term too.

    • La Frite says:

      @cris
      There was a youtube link circulating somewhere in these forums, showing how to make your own PS powder at home … OK, found it for you:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75BbSlXxF9M

    • thanks for the youtube link La Frite. Making PS looks time consuming. And it looks like 5 potatoes is about equal to 4T of PS. That’s a lot of potatoes to have to eat raw or in a smoothy. I think I will look into the green plantain flour. I live in a tropical country so that will be my next search.

  23. Here they come. The resistant starch is on the way into the human studies…

    “…led to the development of the new product, a natural starch derived from a mixture of seaweed and starch in which the release of starch fiber in the gastrointestinal tract can be delayed, slowed and controlled to occur in the colon, rather than in the stomach and upper intestine. (…) The fiber is a targeted, controlled-release fiber that travels through the large intestine to be fermented by bacteria in the entire colon including the descending [distal] colon where colon cancer, diverticulitis, ulcerative colitis and irritability commonly occur. The fiber can be designed to target different locations. This enables the bacteria in the large intestine to receive important nutrients from the fiber, which promotes overall gut health.”

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140116130451.htm

  24. I’ve been on the PS now for about 3 months (usually 3 TBLS a day about 5 times per week).

    Fartage is still fairly high. Do people really go back to the same fartage as pre-PS? It seems to me that the extra fartage is indicative of the gut working overtime.

    Just ordered some test strips to see the effects on blood sugar. Will report back.

    • EF

      The thing that always works for me is a three day complete back off. Upon resumption at same dose, almost nothing. The other day I took 4T all at once, immediately after 1 1/2 cups of pinto beans. Nothing.

      It comes back every now & then just kinda like a farting spell IRL, or has. I just go a couple of days with zero, whatever happens happens and then it’s many days or a couple of weeks before I need to do it again.

      Intermittency and randomness.

  25. I enjoyed this podcast, very well done by all parties.

    My only nitpick is that I think the message didn’t fully get across about how heat and cooking effects RS. For example at the end of the podcast around 1:50:00, Coppola suggests using green plantains by frying them or making a mash. It was a bit of facepalm moment to think that it still wasn’t clear by the end of the episode that the RS being referred to can’t be cooked or the starch particles break down.

    I fear some listeners who are unfamiliar with the concepts of RS may try to use potato starch as a thickener in soups and cooking or follow Coppola’s advice for using plantains and think they will reap the benefits.

    • Spanish Caravan says:

      I think Angelo knows that RS disappears when frying. He was just giving examples of many different ways of eating plantains, not just for RS consumption. Reminds me of how Jimmy Moore still doesn’t get it. But if anyone should try RS, it’s Angelo because I know he’s had some side effects from going too low carb. I’m a little disappointed he hasn’t tried it himself yet.

  26. Bernhard says:

    “What happens when these ugly faces get together and collaborate?”
    Ugly? Not really. At least not all of them, lol.
    Pax.

  27. Creates series of posts on RS. Very, very interesting. Thank you and quick question for Richard and/or Tim:

    If the rice is cooked, cooled and then later fried, why doesn’t the frying heat reactivate the non-resistant starches? I gave this a try, and it tasted great, much better than the cool potato starch. But for the times I want to be in ketosis, I don’t want this fried rice to knock me out. Does it matter how the rice is fried. I gave mine a quick stir fry in coconut oil.

    Thanks again.

  28. JP

    Because as we’ve said a million times, but people claim to have gone through posts (about 50) but haven’t, retrograde RS is a different starch structure. In fact, heat actually increases the RS slightly. But, I still warm gently.

  29. Richard, Tim, Dr Grace (or someone else)

    I hear you that RS plays two roles: (1) a transport mech for probiotics and beneficial bacteria through the stomach; and (2) a fermentable substrate by the same bacteria–and aothers–in the colon.

    If I mix RS in the form of potato starch or plantain flour with kefir and probiotics or water prior to drinking, does the RS fermentation begin before I consume the mixture or before the RS makes it to the colon? Is this a good thing/bad thing?

    If this has been answered elsewhere please point me there. I couldn’t find dialog about this specifically.

    • gabriella kadar says:

      Why don’t you find out for yourself? Leave the mixture out all night and see what happens.

    • gk, that’s a great idea. I’m just not sure how I would do that. I ferment a lot of stuff: kombucha, pickles, sauerkraut, beets. The only way I know something is fermented/ing is to look, smell and taste. I’m not sure what I would look smell or test for in a batch of PS + (kraut, kefir, probiotics, etc.)

      Do you have a recommendation for how to go about that?

      Further, if the RS is fermented prior to arriving in the stomach and small intestines, what happens to its effectiveness as a fermentation substrate in the colon?

    • Spanish Caravan says:

      I think Richard suggested mixing the two in water and let it sit for a while, maybe 30 minutes, before drinking it. I’ve been spraying my probiotics to the PS water and then just stirring it.

      I’m gonna now try to let it sit for about 30-60 minutes. My only concern is exposure to oxygen.

    • Marybeth says:

      @Chris,
      I am making kimchi and wondering if I can substitute the rice flour for PS. The only drawback I see is you boil it to make a thick paste. If you cool it in the fridge (like potatoes) does it retrograde?

    • I understand that.

      The question is how does the RS changes roles from a transport mechanism to fermentable substrate? I suppose there are several possible answers:

      1. Function of time
      2. Introduction into the anaerobic environment of the colon
      3. Other enzymes present to begin the fermentation process
      4. ???

      Then based upon the answer to this first question, what does that mean if the RS begins fermentation prior to arriving in the colon. Maybe there is no physiological consequence–or it could mean a big different.

      I would just like to better understand this. Seems to me that Richard, Tim or Grace (or some other well read individual here) may know the answer.

      I haven’t seen this discussed yet. But maybe I just can’t find the discussion or have overlooked it.

    • Chris, if you leave 1 cup of kefir on the kitchen counter overnight and 1 cup of kefir mixed with 1 tablespoon of potato starch beside it, see what’s the difference in the morning. You’ll be able to tell if there’s been activity. Since kefir has both bacteria and yeast, you would be able to smell the difference if the yeast is active on the potato starch or the bacteria or both.

      Since one of the points of fermentation is to make a food easier to digest (as in kefir or yoghurt), if the starch granules are broken down by fermentation in this way, then we could assume the potato starch will become easier to digest…. when the ‘deal’ here is to not be able to digest it and let the colonic bacteria do the job.

      If you end up with alcohol, distill it and make vodka. ;)

    • sootedninjas says:

      sometimes this is the way we get in trouble. we over complicate things. keep it simple. drink it with just cold water. see if it works. then add another variable to the equation then see if it works. just saying :) but if that is your thing then have fun with it.

    • gabkad,

      I’ll give it a shot, but I don’t expect much difference. They are both going to ferment. I think it will be really difficult to distinguish a difference. It’s worth the easy test though. To your point about breaking the starch granules down, if it is broken down in fermentation prior to the colon, this is a problem, right?

      ninjas,

      Your reply is technically off topic. If you feel this way, I recommend you start a new thread and make that recommendation to Richard & Tim. They are the people who made the RS + (Kefir, yogurt, probiotic, etc) recommendation. I just questioned if the result of their recommendation could produce an undesired result, having the RS fermented prior to reaching the colon.

      I personally do all of the above: mix with kefir, mix with kombucha, mix with water. I don’t notice a difference, but that’s not conclusive of anything. The purpose of the question is to ask knowledgeable people if there is a physiological/scientific explanation.

    • sootedninjas says:

      and how did you quantify the difference ?

    • Sorry, I don’t understand the question.

    • I only let mine sit for a few minutes. All I’m speculatively looking for is for bacteria to attach.

      What I really want to know is that if you have spore-based probiotics, how long does it take them to come alive again? And would just warm water do it? That way, you could put them in warm water, wait that required time, whatever it is, then introduce your PS, wait a few more while stirring, etc.

      Of course, they have to be the sorts of bacteria that feed off RS. But, you can do it 2 ways. As I just described and in addition, down an encapsulated of the same thing, as I’m guessing the encapsulation (like the Pearls brand) is to protect the spores to get down to the colon.

    • Thanks, Richard.

      I am mostly curious how the RS granules can be transportation at Time 1 and then fuel at Time 2. Lots for me to learn.

      The podcast was fantastic, BTW.

    • DuckDodgers says:

      Chris,

      I think the data and observations to answer a lot of your questions are probably found in these two papers:

      Absorption of starch by healthy ileostomates: effect of transit time and of carbohydrate load.
      R W Chapman, J K Sillery, M M Graham, and D R Saunders

      Adhesion of Bifidobacteria to Granular Starch and Its Implications in Probiotic Technologies
      R. Crittenden,* A. Laitila, P. Forssell, J. Mättö, M. Saarela, T. Mattila-Sandholm, and P. Myllärinen

    • That’s great stuff at first glance. Thanks!

    • gabriella kadar says:

      Duck, that first study: they don’t indicate if this is cooked or raw. Maybe it’s cooked.

    • What exactly can we conclude from those studies, I’m not sure I get it.

      Can RS be both transportation for probiotics and fuel for gut microbes?

    • “Can RS be both transportation for probiotics and fuel for gut microbes?”

      What makes you think there’s a difference?

  30. DuckDodgers says:

    Just curious, but anyone know why someone eating PS would make their plasma ammonia go up?

  31. gabriella kadar says:

    According to WebMD, high blood ammonia levels indicate problems with the liver. It’s supposed to convert ammonia to urea. Then urea gets filtered out by the kidneys and ends up in the urine.

    When people write things about their experiences as this person has, we don’t know if they have hep. C or cirrhosis or what all. We don’t know what medications they are taking. We don’t know anything except that one thing. Since he/she has a physician and this person is keeping track of her medical issues, he/she should follow that person’s instructions and not fish around on the internet experimenting with themself when said experiments clearly don’t benefit him/her.

  32. Has anybody run into the gluten cross reactivity with potato starch? I’ve been doing the potato starch for about 6 weeks and have been getting all the benefits from it that is listed. But I’ve been noticing problems having to do with nightshades and even more troublesome I’m reacting lately as if I’m ingesting gluten immediately after taking the PS. I looked up gluten cross reactive foods and sure enough white potato is listed as a cross reactor with gluten in gluten sensitive individuals!

    I still want to get all the benefits from RS so I’m going to try Plaintain starch. I’m assuming that one still needs to consume 2-4 Tbls daily of it. My concern is the fructose content of the Plaintain starch as I suffer from fructose malabsorption. Also will I be getting as much RS from the Plaintain as the potato? If anybody can answer theses questions I would be very grateful! Thanks!

  33. Great posts and great info. I am a big believer in the “paleo” approach of looking at our health and for generating hypotheses… Unfortunately, I was getting increasingly jaded by the subgroup (a very vocal one) of paleo that writes off eating vegetables and carbs (as if our ancestors just turned their noses up at anything that wasn’t meat…). For instance, I have yet to read any scientific studies of hunter-gatherers chasing down bacon every morning and then washing it down with MCT-oil infused coffee (LOL)…
    The info you have provided and the awesomely sensible approach of the Latest in Paleo podcast both go a long way in making paleo a lot more healthy and scientific. I’m into old school martial arts – so I respect ancient wisdom (I’ve felt the crushing fist of the hard-earned ancestral wisdom of my teachers!), but none of my teachers ever completely turned their noses up at the best the modern world and science might have to offer. They were rooted in their beliefs, but also evolutionarily minded enough to be open to contrarian viewpoints – particularly if those viewpoints made sense and work. http://www.sixharmonyconsulting.com

  34. Great podcast guys! Tim sounded like an old pro, I was really impressed with how clearly you both communicated complicated info.

    I’ve been doing PS for about two months now and the heartburn I’ve had for over 14 years is completely gone. TMI had also improved dramatically after being VLC for about 6 months (definitely too long). I can’t thank you both enough!

  35. That comment about BG from Facebook make me smile. If the VLC group who are doing it to try and keep BG down to minimal levels all the time would read the research on normal BG, they might think differently. No, on second thought zealots are zealots (I was there once).

    VLC is a therapy to get chronic conditions under control and east weight loss. Then, the carbs need to come up to a sustainable level which will vary by person (genetics, epigenectics, gut biome, and any chronic issues).

    The research shows that damage begins occurring over 140 and as long as the response is good meaning BG comes down from that level normally over 4 hours then no damage should be occurring. My goal is to stay at 120 or lower most of the time with an occasional excursion up to 140.

    Nice podcast by the way. Loved the discussion.

    I have been doing PS for almost 2 weeks and, being diabetic, am very pleased. I was at the 5-8 grams carbs maximum each meal to keep my fasting and postprandial BG down. With 4 tbsp PS every morning in Greek yogurt, my fasting is never over 100 now, is consistent, and I’m eating 60+ grams of carbs a day not including the PS. I even ate two very large onion rings cooked with a corn meal coating only went to 119 postprandial. I would have been 150+ with those two rings before using PS. So there is something to the research showing diabetes is at least partially gut based.

    Once my current 28 day test is over, I’ll be adding beans and then later tubers to see how I do and at what level of those I can get away with.

    Thanks for all the information, testing, and research. I really appreciate it.

    Oh, almost forgot, heartburn. Used to get it off and on but after PS, none!!!!!!

  36. I listened to the podcast, and I’m really interested in your upcoming book about the gut microbiome and resistant starch. Do you think you might send out some free advance reader copies for people to review on Amazon, because I’d be happy to!

Trackbacks

  1. […] people are eating potato starch raw mixed in cold beverages to increase their insulin sensitivity. Latest in Paleo 97: Tatertot Tim Steele and I, on The Gut Biome and Resistant Starch | Free The Anim… There are months of trials and documented evidence on FTA. Excellent stuff. It is saving the lives […]

  2. […] I used news of our fist public announcement of a book coming soon in Angelo's Latest in Paleo Podcast as a hook to get you to listen. Hope you did. But if you […]

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