What Came First, the Chicken or the Egg? And The Creationist Shtick: New Species

Offhand, and without thinking of it much to the 1st Q, I'd probably say spore forming bacteria came first. That's kinda like an egg, right? Probably happened a billion years before we saw reptiles, or birds—all reproducers by means of encapsulated, self sufficient wombs.

Well, Mark let the cat out of the bag in terms of who's likely to be publishing the book Tim and I have been working on since early December, and Dr. "Grace" BG since a month or so ago as Amazing Science Editor—which is going to go down as the best idea to which I've ever capitulated. :) Tim insisted. We've now entered the realm of having too much, possibly. About 400 pages, hundreds and hundreds of references, a huge number form 2013 and even...2014. We get assaulted daily.

...Anyway, this notion or framework in thinking about evolution is something Mark and I have talked about. He mentioned it in the podcast with Dave Asprey linked above, and it is already well ingrained in the narrative of the book (which is my primary responsibility).

Did we evolve and gut bacteria were opportunists or, are we essentially the product of the first on the scene, 3 billion years ago and counting, going through about a half dozen generations of evolution per day, compared with our 30-year-long single generations?

Oh doG, what's happening to my universal view? What about THE BIBLE, written by sheepherders following a handyman with prophetic Messiah delusions—just like about 300 or so others—only with worse writers, such as to be dismissed by the Romans as not politically viable?

Or, maybe it's to the advantage of the 100 trillion gut bacteria who regulate all manner of gut pH, SFCA production, hormonal production and regulation, and are plugged right into the brain with all of it. Maybe they need us to be kinda stupid, for their own survival and ours. Wisdom of crowds? there's 100 trillion of them. after all.

We are the Borg. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. We will integrate your technology and make it our own.

New Research: The Hologenomic Basis of Speciation: Gut Bacteria Cause Hybrid Lethality in the Genus Nasonia.

ABSTRACT

Although the gut microbiome influences numerous aspects of organismal fitness, its role in animal evolution and the origin of new species is largely unknown. Here we present evidence that beneficial bacterial communities in the guts of closely related species of the genus Nasonia form species-specific phylosymbiotic assemblages that cause lethality in interspecific hybrids. Bacterial constituents and abundance are irregular in hybrids relative to parental controls, and antibiotic curing of the gut bacteria significantly rescues hybrid survival. Moreover, feeding bacteria to germ-free hybrids reinstates lethality and recapitulates the expression of innate immune genes observed in conventionally reared hybrids. We conclude that in this animal complex, the gut microbiome and host genome represent a coadapted “hologenome” that breaks down during hybridization, promoting hybrid lethality and assisting speciation.

Translation: Gut microbiota and the evolution of the species: an interview with Dr. Seth Bordenstein

Our science begins with the questions of who we are as animal-microbe chimeras and who we are as an animal species. Traditionally, most of us see the living world through a refined set of filters: the animal genome is stably inherited, subject to natural selection, and determines how new species arise from descent with genetic modification. Yet there is a transformation occurring today in our capacity to understand who we are beyond our nuclear genes. Indeed, the science of the microbiome has emerged in the last decade to massively widen the recognition, if not scope, of a species dependency on microbes. In this specific study, Dr. Robert Brucker and I set out to test if the gut microbiome has been overlooked in the process by which new species arise.

Using a model insect system, we first discovered evidence that the DNA from the gut microbiome can retain information on the ancestry of how animal species are related to each other (termed “phylosymbiosis”), just like the DNA in the nucleus’ genome (termed phylogeny). Second, we showed that the gut microbiome is essential to stopping interbreeding between the species. In a series of hybridization experiments with and without a gut microbiome, the work demonstrated evidence that both the DNA from the nucleus and gut microbiome are essential to the speciation process. A mismatch between the right microbiome and nuclear genome is what underscores why hybrids die between species, thus potentially spurring the origin of species.

This work is different from previous studies because it adds the gut microbiome to a short list of genetic entities that can cause speciation – what Darwin deemed the mystery of mysteries! In addition to the divergence in DNA sequences in the nucleus and mitochondria, the changes in the gut microbiome can promote the evolution of one species into two.

[...] Evolution is defined as a change in DNA that occurs over time, leading to new adaptations and speciation. If one looks at the gut microbiome as a major, if not dominant, component of the DNA of a host animal, then changes in the gut microbiome can quite naturally lead to new adaptations and speciation just like changes in nuclear genes. We adhere to this view and suggest that the gut microbiome must be considered a major portion of the genetics of an animal, in combination with the nuclear genome and organelles – what is now called a hologenome.

Uh, sorry creationists: Evolution in real time.

Lenski has watched E. coli bacteria multiply through 59,000 generations, a span that has allowed him to observe evolution in real time. Since his Long-Term Experimental Evolution Project began in 1988, the bacteria have doubled in size, begun to mutate more quickly, and become more efficient at using the glucose in the solution where they’re grown.

More strikingly, however, he found that one of the 12 bacterial lines he has maintained has developed into what he believes is a new species, able to use a compound in the solution called citrate — a derivative of citric acid, like that found in some fruit — for food.

But I'll tell you what. It's supposedly a free country, so creationists get to be as stupid as they want to be. They get to just open their 2,000-year-old good book, written by sheepherders following a mentally disturbed handyman with a daddy complex.

...Alright, all you smart folks who have to encounter ignorant creationists bringing up "the species problem" ...you have a new link to share.

You're welcome.

Comments

  1. I now want to go kicking down the doors of the tiny little houses my gut bacteria live in and interrogate them as to their intentions.

    My poor sick kitty is on antibiotics. Do any of the smart people here know what might be good to give an obligate carnivore to help his gut biome get back in business?

    • I just recently began using a probiotic that’s pretty much dirt bacteria. Prescript-Assist. If your kitty’s vet doesn’t have a probiotic you’re comfy using, you might try that one, though good luck getting it into the kitty and I have no idea what dosage you’d use. They’re powder capsules so maybe open one and dump half of it into his favorite gooshy food for starters.

      Unless you let him run around outside, and then fear not because he’ll run into lots of dirt that way, plus lick it off his paws.

    • +1 Dana (where have you been?)

      Yep, cats ought not have a lot of trouble unless they’re exclusive house cats.

    • Thanks so much! He only goes out on his harness (I know, I know), but he doesn’t feel like it right now. My local health food store has Primal Defense Ultra, which I think is also made from dirt bacteria. I don’t really trust my vet to know much about probiotic use and am suspicious of her incentives (no different from human medical doctors), so I may just start mixing half a Primal Defense into his food after he’s done with the antibiotics. I can’t imagine it would hurt him.

      I’ll let you guys know if my cat turns into Supercat, though I would settle for healthy cat. :)

    • Charles says:

      I started adding Flora Balance powder to my cat’s food when I was starting that + potato starch myself. He’s almost exclusively indoors (we have eagles, foxes, owls and raccoons) and the probiotics (soil-based) cleared up a skin condition he’d had all his life that no one could help with. He doesn’t mind it in his food at all. Any SBO-based probiotic will probably help. As Richard mentioned, that’s the kind of probiotic an indoor cat misses.

    • gabriella kadar says:

      Gina, two things:

      You can supplement your cat’s food with Wellness cat kibble. It contains 3 probiotic species.

      And you can share your Prescript Assist with your cat as well. The product PetFlora http://www.vitalityscience.com/v/AllProducts/pet-flora-cat/soil-based-organisms.asp
      is exactly the same as Prescipt Assist, just more expensive on a mg/mg basis. Prescript Assist is better value for money.

  2. As to the question “chicken or egg”, the fossil record answers that one. Egg. Duh. No one mentioned WHICH kind of egg it was, so I’ll go straight to the universal definition.

  3. Given the evolution of the citrate eating species in such a short (in human terms) time,maybe there are species that have evolved, or still evolving, in our gut that will allow us to consume grains without serious problems. I miss my fresh baguette.

  4. Can’t believe that the majority of Americans and most of the world and its leaders still believe in various and sundry sky gods. As a human, it’s kind of embarrassing. I would be more “live and let live” about it if they were just sheepherders, but the truth is, a hella lot of oppression, killing, warring and genocide was done and is done in the name of.

    Then again, if it is proven that microscopic bugs begat our creation, I fully expect that temples will be built and oppression, killing, warring and genocide will be done in the name of our Lord Bifidus (or Streptococcus, depending on your views).

    • Hahahah Q. Wouldn’t that be the shit?

    • I like the sound of it: Lord Bifidus. Sounds ominous. Essential.

    • There is nothing so small that humans can’t corrupt it, Richard.

      And yes, it would totally be the shit. I would seriously have a laugh. For me, I have to look at huans as a hot mess soap opera reality show, soon to be cancelled. Because if I had to digest that this is actually what my species is doing to each other and other species and the earth, then it would be very hard to cope. May Lord Bifidus have mercy on us all.

    • Yes. The literalists consistently have to retreat. One of my favorite quotes from Joseph Campbell:

      Half the people in the world think that the metaphors of their religious traditions are facts. And the other half contends that they are not facts at all. As a result we have people who consider themselves believers because they accept metaphors as facts, and we have others who classify themselves as atheists because they think religious metaphors are lies.

    • Well that quote is a little disingenuous, I think.

      I acknowledge the usefulness of lots of religious metaphors, even some of the purported sayings/teachings of Jesus, and so do a lot of atheists or “spiritualists” I know.

      The funny thing about literalists, though, is that they’re so concrete bound, they seemingly don’t understand that there’s often far greater power in metaphor than in concrete. Arguably, metaphor is the chief human distinction from other animals—even those that seemingly have feelings and emotions.

      “The map is not the territory.”

  5. tatertot says:

    What do you bet that our gut bugs had a hand in making us religious creatures? Why wouldn’t they? Think about it.

    It seems like our gut bugs were doing a really good job of directing us and keeping us really healthy right up until we got too smart about 10,000 years ago. They created a host that didn’t need them, I’m glad to be a small part of putting some emphasis back on the gut biome.

  6. Or, maybe our gut bugs see us as gods. “Oh mighty host, why aren’t you feeding me dirt, shit and tubers like before, in our time of plenty, what have I done to forsake thee!”

    I agree that humans getting “too smart” will be their ultimate doom. Their is no getting that genie back in it’s bottle. We have figured out how to get around natural selection –resulting in gross overpopulation; we have dismissed habitat/codependent species preservation in favor of greed; and, despite profound self-consciousness, we greatly prefer superficial gratification to constructive evolution.

    • The poorest parts of a country, with the poorest people have the most kids. The ones that have gotten around natural selection the best are having less kids. Last I checked population is on the decline in America if you don’t factor in immigrants moving to the country.

      Solution, more progress, more capitalism, less government.

    • So here is my “biting commentary on the human condition”.

      MC:
      “solution, more progress, more capitalism, less government.”

      I sense a libertarian here. (You all know who you are). Right now in North Dakota, Free wheeling capitalism is poisoning the state with oil sand processing filter contamination, including massive dumps (TONS) of RADIOACTIVE material in vacant lots, dumpsters, empty buildings, on the side of the road. The detectors go off the screen when measuring. Less government there (GOP) is looking away from that because of capitalism, greed and some jobs and votes. You will have Deadwood soon there. Some “progress” huh? By the way–what IS progress to you? Education that propells progress is being destroyed by capitalism and frankly, the GOP. Notice their stance on SCIENCE? They don’t believe in it, which is preposterous on every level. I suspect that doesn’t have much to do with god, but greed and power. We are supposed to hang our existance and the facts of our very lives and our communities, relatives, neighbors, families, future on some economic geniuses? Like Goldman Sachs? Jamie Dimon at Chase? They don’t give one RS fart for you or your family. Just their own kind. This is the end game of free market capitalism. There isn’t one single thing on this earth that humans haven’t screwed up royally. (I think I read something like that here as well.)

      The corporations and Wall Street (which is NOT our economy–just a drain into their pockets from MY economy) get away with it because they hand the loss over to us. They own us now and We the People are now their personal piggy banks to bail their capitalism out. Who is going to pay for that mess in ND after the oil pirates pull out? Don’t you get that by now? What do you think 2006-8 was? I have 2 relatives who started their own businesses just fine,followed all the rules for self-sufficiency, but they were destroyed because of deregulated markets which caused the Great Republican Recession. They had no customers, because customers (regular folk) had no jobs, houses or money. Free market will not solve everything, unless you are a millionaire of billionaire and then you don’t have to see the collateral damage. You one? I’ve been around awhile. If you want less government and more capitalism (freedom), you just get up to your mountain, build your cabin, grow or hunt your food, eat some dirt, poop in a hole, sell some crap on Ebay, but don’t get on MY roads, don’t use the internet in my library, don’t use my power grid, don’t use my sewer system, don’t call my police when you have a prowler and don’t call my ambulance when the bear gets you–you know the bear needs gut bugs too. The degregaded capitalism we have now is toxic to humans, creatures and the very earth we live on.

      Now I may not be speaking directly to you, MC, but I am to others, I figure. You are part of the problem because you let this buy out of our governments by Wall street and corporations happen, in the name of free market capitalism. (Check out the food and medical industries—DUH) Now, what if you live downstream in another state from where they are dumping radiation. You have kids. Do you want some regulation on that, or do you like sick kids because, by god, the guvmint is evil and I can do whatever I want….and so can, well, maybe not, (looking at your) sick kids.

      Let’s evolve to some knowledge about this please. Libertarianism and free market is nice on a personal level, but you can’t force a country or world to run on happenstance,”whatever”, LIBERTY, and economic profit zombies in business and government that destroy others–in other words—sociopaths—without a care. Dear MC, extrapolate your ideology out. See where it leads in real world living and the clear evidence abounding of the problems. Ideas are nice, but they are just ideas which require no facts in many cases—a “faith” if you will. Unfortunately, most of us have to run our lives on facts. Ayan Rand hooked herself up to Medicare and Social Security as fast as you can say “cancer”. Her written blathering was fiction, yo’all know. Ideology—not fact. Not science.

      Sorry off topic here, but then everything is connected—right? Healthy gut bugs are only a part.

    • Hell yes to this.

    • gabriella kadar says:

      Janet, agreed about the ‘reality of Ayn Rand’. Marx was not different: lived off the money of his benefactors. Two sides of the same coin. Both disaffected Russian Jews.

      The middle class was created by government. When it wants, the government takes it away. It’s take it away season. Unlike in Ukraine, north Americans of both Canadian and American persuasion still have it too good. It’s not hurting people bad enough to rise up. The rest have a toxic brain-gut axis. The iPad, the iPhone, the Xbox and whatever bullshit people are utliziling to dull their minds while they eat crap, works right in to the hands of those who want control. Do you think the young kids will tear their eyes away from the communication device long enough to notice when the trees bud much less when government screws them over royally? Heck, they don’t even notice when they walk into street furniture, fall up the stairs or walk into moving motor vehciles. Marx said that religion is the opiate of the masses. He had no idea that iPads wouldf surpass by far the influence of religion.

      But do not despair: just as the television played it’s part in reducing birthrates, the new fangled technology will be an even better birth control device..

    • Gabriela

      You really even take someone serious who froths at the mouth incoherent like that? I couldn’t get past the first paragraph. She mentioned Rand somewhere?

      What I find interesting is that the quote simply stands on its own in the context of the post. Citing who wrote it is merely the proper thing to do. It’s a sign of a small mind to me who can’t differentiate ideas from their proponents.

      I’d bet there are at least a dozen or so things Marx or Lenin, or even Hitler said that would be perfectly appropriate and apropos in a context.

      At any rate, I simply got the idea that the commenter wants to make an elaborate case about how everyone ought to live at the expense of everyone else in some big cannibal pot hysteria and I’m never interested. Not even enough for a good ‘ole eff off.

    • @Janet

      Please learn the difference between free market Capitalism, and Fascism. All the shit you’re complaining about has everything to do with government and those who use it to serve their wants.

      Do you think the government has been involved in our affairs, less and less, the past 50 years? That we have actually had more capitalism?

      America has never had more government, never had more regulation. It’s going to hit the fan eventually. I’m sure the government will be there to convince you that it was all capitalism’s fault, and if only we had more government, they could have prevented this catastrophe.

    • “Please learn the difference between free market Capitalism, and Fascism.”

      Yes, please.

      There’s like 12,000 lobbyists in DC alone, and last year they spent $3.2 BILLION with a B. Since 1998, federal lobbying has spent about $30 billion total. That citizens get fucked over because of privileges purchased with the 30 bil is a symptom of a root cause, which is the state and its whoring, highest bidder ways.

  7. La Frite says:

    I tend to believe that we have entered a transition (the start of the ascending phase of the Kali Yuga) and the growing knowledge of the gut microbiome is part of it (together with the accelerating decay of “modern” western civilisation). Prepare for events in the next decades that will shatter old paradigms …

  8. Another “translation” of Bordenstein’s work on wasps:

    “A species contains similar organisms that can mate and produce healthy offspring. Bordenstein reported that when two different species of jewel wasps (scientific names Nasonia giraulti and N. vitripennis) mate, they produce hybrid larvae that quickly die. Biologists usually blame a hybrid organism’s failure to survive on the fact that its parents have different — and incompatible — genes. But genes may not be the only reason hybrids don’t live. The wasp experiments suggest a more complex explanation. Gut microbes also appear to play an important role in a hybrid’s survival.

    The researchers used drugs to kill the bacteria in the guts of hybrid-wasp larvae. This treatment saved many of the hybrids. The team also used the drugs to kill the gut bacteria in purebred larvae. Their parents came from the same species. Microbe-free hybrids lived as long as microbe-free purebreds.

    In a later test, Brucker returned several types of germs from the guts of hybrids back to these wasps. The hybrids’ survival rates fell. So without bacteria, the hybrids lived. With it, they died.”

    http://www.sciencenewsforkids.org.php53-21.dfw1-2.websitetestlink.com/2013/07/bacteria-that-live-in-the-gut-may-help-define-species/

    And one more interesting wasp experiment:
    http://www.loe.org/shows/segments.html?programID=13-P13-00030&segmentID=1
    “So the hologenome theory is in its early days, and it’s arguably something that will have a lot of questions around it. Conceptually, the two founders of the hologenome theory, Richard Jefferson and Eugene Rosenberg, have come up with the description of the theory. And Eugene Rosenberg’s lab from Israel has found that if you take a single species of fly, the same species, and you split that species and cultivate it on two different diets, and then you bring these flies back in contact with each other and ask, “do they mate?” , they stunningly found that these flies didn’t mate when they were reared on different diets, but yet they were considered the same species. They were able to find that it was the bacteria in their guts that changed that helped contribute to this mating discrimination that they saw in this one species.”

  9. EatLessMoveMoore says:

    And isn’t it interesting that one of these creationists happens to be the de facto leader and kingmaker of the entire lowcarbosphere (and paleoshere as well if he gets his way) – and no one seems to care.

    • Get a job

    • Rick:

      +1

      ELMM has a job, apparently. It’s going to every comment thread where he can make a comments about Jimmy Moore and only about Jimmy Moore. Ever.

      I have considered just banning her many times, but it’s really kind of caricature and humorous, at this point.

    • gabriella kadar says:

      Richard, do you think maybe obsession is a symptom of the gut-brain axis due to some form of specific endotoxin/lipopolysaccharide with a leaky gut/dysbiosis?

      Gawd, this gut biome business can provide 21st century disses.

    • EatLessMoveMoore says:

      Do the math, Rich: CarbSane can’t be everywhere (and even she’s dialed it back), Wooo’s reluctant to attack a fellow member of Team Keto, Melissa’s given up, Kurt’s gone into exile somewhere, and everyone else is afraid of never doing another LLVLC podcast. So I ask, if not me, who?

    • ELMM

      You’re a one trick pony. I don’t hate you or anything, you’re just boring. Literally every single comment is about Jimmy Moore.

      Gabs….

      :)

  10. LeonRover says:

    DoublePlusUnBad, Rich

    The concept of phylosymbiotic inheritance adds an ironic new highlight to Dawkins’ Selfish Gene Ideas ?

    Whose Selfishness dominates ??

    Sláinte

  11. Bow before your microbe overlords, christian heathen!

  12. An interesting reading:

    “(…) Did Hitler manage to manipulate an unknown psychological mechanism that had been triggered by the threat of disease in the German population?

    (…)Might an effective health intervention such as Obamacare move the country, on some deep psychological level, away from conservative values and toward more liberal ones? Is it possible that there are utterly unacknowledged stakes in this battle?”

    http://www.psmag.com/navigation/health-and-behavior/bugs-like-made-germ-theory-democracy-beliefs-73958/

    • Peter Ward – paleontologist, known to specialize in mass extinctions – wrote a book “Under a Green Sky”, that presents a theory (the theory comes from the group, not just him) that worst mass extinctions were related to the bacterial world trying to take over the eart from multicellular life. The culprits were sulphur metabolizing bacteria (rather than oxygen metabolizing ones), creating H2S, which both killed directly via poisoning and indirectly, by destroying the protective ozone layer. The growth of sulphur bacteria happens when oceans are hot and low in oxygen, which means hot climates, with low temperature differences between poles and the equator.

      Example overview of the idea:
      https://robertscribbler.wordpress.com/tag/dr-peter-ward/
      http://bigthink.com/videos/the-seas-could-turn-to-sulfur
      http://www.orionmagazine.org/index.php/articles/review/325

      He also wrote a book “Medea hypothesis” that argues that the life itself is suicidal, creating conditions that lead to it’s own demise. The example being life sucking carbon out of atmosphere and depositing it in the limestone, as if it was a fossil fuel. Thus systematically eliminating it from the biosphere.

    • Gemma

      You win my Internet for about a week or so. Ferociously interesting article. Thanks.

    • gabriella kadar says:

      Gemma, as my daughter (the history specialist) says ‘potatoes are the food of revolution’.

    • Richard,

      because The Whole thing started to be SO much more interesting. Installed the twitter account just for the sake of listening (and only very occasionally whispering into somebody’s ear). This article from psmag was via Jessica Green (gave TED talks about microbes in buildings).
      Btw, I wonder what John Durrant would think of it ( in his view are traditional religious practices seen as adaptations against pathogens x Thornhill’s theory of misuse of “behavioral immune response” by religions and dictators etc.).

    • I shot it to John in an email yesterday as I thought the same thing.

    • Correction: John Durant, author of The Paleo Manifesto, of course (not Durrant).

  13. I’m considering trying the Prescript-Assist prebiotic. Am I correct in thinking that once the new strains of bacteria get established, that I wouldn’t need to continually take the prebiotic, assuming that I continue to nuture the new bugs using RS?

    • tatertot says:

      The prevailing thought pattern is that when your gut returns to its youthful vigor, you can stop taking all supplements, even potato starch, and just eat a healthy, RS-rich diet with plenty of fermented foods.

      For very healthy gut owners, probiotics and slamming extra RS will be reserved for after antibiotics or maybe even illness, or whenever you feel your gut flora took a hard hit.

      I like to think of potato starch or plantain flour and probiotics as insurance against loss of diversity. For instance, I get pitifully few fresh veggies in Winter and like to pop some of the soil-based organism probiotics in the months I’m eating mostly store-bought sterilized plant matter. In the summer, I grow my own stuff and eat it with lots of dirt.

    • Thanks for this!

    • gabriella kadar says:

      tatertot: ‘healthy gut owners’. LOL. How about owners of healthy guts?

      I can hardly wait until the Prescript Assist shipment arrives. I’m going to give some to the cats. One of them, the potting soil eater has been telling me something for the past 12 years………….’gimme dirt’. At least the Wellness kibble has three bacteria in it so he’s not barfing anymore. But he’s still hor d’oevring on potting soil. It’s interesting. He nibbles on the potting soil before he eats his breakfast. Maybe once he’s got some serious SBOs in him, he’ll be more comfortable. I have a feeling, despite his best efforts, the potting soil isn’t as rich in SBOs as outdoor dirt. Poor guy.

      We’ll all be a dirt eating household.

    • Charles says:

      Keep us informed about this, please. I for one am very interested.

    • Don’t different type of bugs feed on the type of RS in PS? Would stopping the PS reduce the diversity?

    • tatertot says:

      Chupo – If you are eating a diet with RS rich foods of all types, cooked/cooled/reheated or cold potatoes, rice, beans, and some seeds, nuts, grains, and some raw potato, green banana, Tiger Nuts even, there is no need for plain old potato starch. A diet lacking fiber, but supplemented with raw potato starch would probably produce a gut biome with reduced diversity compared to one with RS from a bunch of sources and other fibers. The potato starch is a good tool to kick-start a broken gut and to supplement a diet lacking in real food RS sources.

    • gabriella kadar says:

      Charles, do you have any SBO probiotic at home? I’m going to mix it into their canned food.

  14. Nice try Richard, nice try. You know as well as I do that Satan was swapping out the bacteria to make it look like evolution was real, just like he planted all of the fossils. It’s just another attack against the true path that Jesus has laid out for us. I’m sure that I could pull half a dozen passages straight out of the bible that would prove this wrong.

    Hehe, I’m waiting for the serious posts like this.

  15. Jonathan McRae says:

    I have forwarded the RS links to a couple of friends with IBS, I am doing 30days with an SBO pro-biotic then Ill add the RS for 30 days, anyone else try this approach.

  16. bornagain says:

    Richard, what happened to that family you helped crowdsource fund a butt bacteria test on? You gave $25 if I recall correctly. Any results yet?

    • tatertot says:

      Alan is still working it. Last blog update was March 1oth:

      “Today marks completion of week three of the science project. For week two I decided to see if a stronger dose would make a difference in some of the brain-gut effects. For an entire week I took the 4 TBSP within an hour to sometimes immediately before bed. It did not suit me.

      My dreams were not any more vivid, but sleep was considerably more restless. My metabolism felt ramped up through the night when my body should have been resting. I also had a feeling like a massive bolus was working its way through my gut over the course of the night. The “2nd meal” effect did kick-in. In full force, in fact. It seemed to kill a fair amount of my appetite, all the way to dinner the next day. I still got hungry and ate as I usually did, but it seemed like I was eating less and feeling full far sooner: like 1/2 to 3/4 of they way through my first helping. I never had seconds, which normally I will, even if just a little bit.

      For week three I went back to taking the 4 TBSP in two separate doses and it sat with my system much better. It’s a little curious that 2 TBSP gives no particularly noticeable effect (well aside from the usual part of a bit more gas) but 4 TBSP makes a huge difference, almost like gorging on two really big pieces of cake and ice cream the evening before. (Maybe I’ve done that.)

      As far as keeping up with the test, compliance has been really good. Carie and I have not missed a day. The kids I might have forgotten once or twice over the last two weeks. It was a little hard figuring out what would work best for them. I didn’t want them having stomach problems while at school or drinking a bunch of water before bed. I have figured out a good routine for them now and I don’t think we’ll be forgetting any more days.”

      http://resistantstarchbiome.blogspot.com/

  17. Steve G. says:

    Natural selection occurs at every socio economic level. It is not something owned by higher economic classes. Humans are finding ways of surviving in every type of environment, artificial or natural. Think of all of the people that survive working in dumps, factories, or near radioactive areas (Chernobyl) and still manage to pass on their genes.

    Wealth actually leads to bypassing natural selection. Wealthier humans can afford fertility treatments and can pay for life saving cures or treatments for diseases like cancer or heart disease. These expensive treatments allow people who would otherwise pass to breed. Being part of a wealthy family has its advantages. In earlier times, it didn’t matter if you were an effective leader, you could become king just because you were next in line. Yes, your grandfather may have been a bad ass, but that doesn’t mean you are. We see the same effect today.

    If the world went to shit, who do you think would survive and inherit the earth. My bet is on the ones that have to clean up our shit.

    For the most part, I don’t think we are doing anything much different than our ancestors. We shit, fuck, fight, eat, love, and die. Except we have facebook and nukes. About the only think advanced about us is our ideas that all humans should be treated the same, but that tends to be relegated to principal not practice.

    • tatertot says:

      “For the most part, I don’t think we are doing anything much different than our ancestors. We shit, fuck, fight, eat, love, and die. Except we have facebook and nukes.”

      And antibiotics, and highly processed foods, and meat from animals raised on antibiotics, and plant food that has been genetically modified to have built-in herbicides and pesticides and also sprayed on them, and sanitation practices that are way over-the-top, and a huge disconnect from the Earth and its dirt, etc…

      I read a study about young baboons…even without adults showing them, they can sniff out and select the best foods to eat and pass on the less nutritious foods. Same as human babies sticking everything in their mouths–this trains the immune system through a trick of gut bugs known as ‘oral tolerance’. No adult encourages babies to stick stuff in their mouth, in fact it’s generally discouraged–this is the second-brain in action.

  18. To be honest, the effin’ geneticists scare me a thousand more times than creationists. We passed the point of diminishing returns with science around the time of the Abomb. The creationists will have the last laugh when the scientists engineer Armageddon.

    • Doug:

      “scare me”

      And so I dismiss you. I do not have the capacity to pay any attention to someone who’s scared.

      Ask me, that would be the best thing to weed out, evolutionarily, as as it’s root, it’s killed hundreds of millions of people. Fear is just irrational reaction. Caution and circumspection are not.

    • Great. Thanks for the advice. From now on, I’ll just be “cautious and circumspect” when contemplating the consequences of these nerds buried deep in big pharma/big food/military/God knows who else’s labs somewhere effin around with our DNA. That’s the problem. Fear. Right.

    • bornagain says:

      Richard, I dunno. Being scared has been a pretty successful evolutionary trait in just about all species – hasn’t it? Fear does not stop you from seeking more knowledge but it can help you survive if you’re initial judgement/hypothesis is proved wrong. Ever checked the rigging on your glider more than once before take off? Would you ever fly without checking? You probably keep checking till you reach a level of fear your comfortable with.

  19. I am not a big fan of supplements, especially vitamins in supplement form. I am ok with supplementing with protein or liver or minerals etc.

    Here’s are two papers on how gut bacteria can produce the vitamins our body needs and an old post from Dr.Ayers on this topic.
    Now. somebody please convince me why we can’t ditch vitamin supplements (including Richard’s fav K2) and instead focus on seeding and feeding our gut bugs well.
    —-
    B-group vitamin production by lactic acid bacteria–current knowledge and potential applications:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21933312

    … Even though most lactic acid bacteria (LAB) are auxotrophic for several vitamins, it is now known that certain strains have the capability to synthesize water-soluble vitamins such as those included in the B-group (folates, riboflavin and vitamin B(12) amongst others).
    …Here, several examples will be presented where vitamin-producing LAB led to the elaboration of novel fermented foods with increased and bioavailable vitamins.
    …This review will show that the use of vitamin-producing LAB could be a cost-effective alternative to current vitamin fortification programmes and be useful in the elaboration of novel vitamin-enriched products.

    ————-

    Bacteria as vitamin suppliers to their host: a gut microbiota perspective.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22940212

    Abstract

    Food-related lactic acid bacteria (LAB) as well as human gut commensals such as bifidobacteria can de novo synthesize and supply vitamins. This is important since humans lack the biosynthetic capacity for most vitamins and these must thus be provided exogenously. Although vitamins are present in a variety of foods, deficiencies still occur, mainly due to malnutrition as a result of insufficient food intake and because of poor eating habits. Fermented milks with high levels of B-group vitamins (such as folate and riboflavin) can be produced by LAB-promoted and possibly bifidobacteria-promoted biosynthesis. Moreover, certain strains of LAB produce the complex vitamin cobalamin (or vitamin B12). In this review, fermented foods with elevated levels of B-group vitamins produced by LAB used as starter cultures will be covered. In addition, genetic abilities for vitamin biosynthesis by selected human gut commensals will be discussed.

    ————

    Dr. Ayer’s post

    http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.com/2012/04/dr-oz-vitamins-biofilms.html

    • TN:

      I don’t know, I think a little bet hedging is in order, especially D, K2 and Mag. Other than that most of the stuff I do is herbal concoctions of various sorts and of course, the probiotics now. I’ll maybe take a little zinc and selenium once or twice per week.

      http://astore.amazon.com/fretheani0c-20?_encoding=UTF8&node=8

      On the other hand, I like to try to get in liver pate of various sorts, fresh and smoked oysters, sardines, cod livers now & then, and other nutrient dense foods.

    • Like I said, for trace minerals and deficient amino acids, some supplementation is definitely needed (you know, our little gut bugs can’t do EVERYTHING!). But for vitamins that the gut bugs can synthesize, my approach is going to be to try and identify the strain responsible for a specific vitamin I am deficient in and try to find a PBX or the type of fermented food containing that strain that might help (ex: some Natto spores with some of theier fav RS for poducing K2?)

      For amino acid deficiencies, GDX ONE is an excellent test. I got my results back (thank you so much Dr. Grace!!!) and I was very impressed with the detailed information- the dietary peptides, the intermediary metabolites, essential and non-essential amino acids, the Kreb Cycle co-factors/inhibitors…it’s amazing.

      An example of what I found in the ONE report- I am actually very abundant in the peptide beta-alanine. If I did not know this information and went with the current hype surrounding b-alanine for muscle building, I would have probably overloaded myself with b-alanine to a detrimental level in a self-defeating manner. Just an example.

  20. Question for tater tot (since I’ve been “dismissed” by Richard. Funny feeling. I can’t remember being dismissed since elementary school).

    Have you written about parasites at all? Isn’t there a risk associated with eating poop and dirt? Is this perhaps one of the reasons for shortened paleolithic life spans? Great gut biome, then a worm drills a hole through your brain and out your ear. Do dirt loving cultures include parasite killing herbs in their diet that we don’t have? So many questions.

    Lovin my potato starch, not jumping into the kitty litter box just yet.

    • “since I’ve been “dismissed””

      Only been a fan of this blog for a few months but can say that Richard is pretty spot on as far as I can tell in his treatment of people, especially dismissals.

      I personally love the rigour and challenges of assumptions which brings me to

      “Is this perhaps one of the reasons for shortened paleolithic life spans?”

      Probably only the worst assumption with the paleo framework such that if you’re still assuming such things you have a lot of reading to do.

      Dr Kurt Harris talked about the importance of Gut Biota in 2011 and particularly parasites, helminths from memory, then has pretty much disappeared from this scene due to the fad its become and the fools its attracting.

    • http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20054982

      “Mice colonized with helminths are protected from disease in models of colitis, encephalitis, Type 1 diabetes and asthma. Clinical trials show that exposure to helminths reduce disease activity in patients with ulcerative colitis or Crohn’s disease. ”

      There is probably a lot more to parasites than we know, and a lot more positive than we think, just like the other bugs.

    • Dan, before you pile on, why don’t you look back and the reason I was dismissed and address that specifically?

      From what I’ve read the consensus among the informed is that paleos probably lived to ripe old ages if they survived the risks of their times i.e. they didn’t drop dead of heart attack or cancer, if they survived infancy, being eaten by predators, paleo on paleo violence, accidents while hunting. I just pointing out that parasitic infection may be one of those risks they faced.

      While modern hunter gathers don’t suffer from the diseases of civilization, they were hardly overweighted with octogenarians when found them. I believe the consensus is that although we are individually less healthy, as a group moderns hang around this earth longer. That’s no knock on paleo diets.

    • LeonRover says:

      Doug,

      Nice point about a trade-off between group longevity & individual health.

      The modern preventive medical paradigm is group longevity trumps the individual’s well-being ‘cos We Know Better.

      I always put MY prediction of MY well-being against an MD’s prediction of group longevity.

      Sláinte

    • Informed moderns have the opportunity to have the best of all worlds. A diet that prevents the diseases of civilization, yet the opportunity to avoid the downsides of paleo life, including life expectancy issues surrounding things like starvation, freezing to death, and yes, perhaps death by parasite.

      I bring this up because I’m hearing more and more people talking about eating dirt. Parasites are a big issue in this regard that I don’t see being addressed. Maybe it’s not too late for you guys to do some more research and add a section to your book.

      I like you guys, appreciate the introduction to RS. I’m trying to help out here.

    • tatertot says:

      We have taken dirt bacteria into account and have written quite a bit about it. We’ve also written about parasites and the problems they cause or the symbiotic relationship they can have. It would be hard to leave that stuff out of a book on gut health.

      ‘Eating dirt’ is so open to interpretation I’d have a hard time recommending it as a standard practice. ‘Eating minimally washed veggies’ is easier to understand.

    • People shouldn’t take too much stock in my dismissals, though. I often have a wry grin and eye twinkle when doing it.

    • Fair enough. I was overstating my case for effect. I look forward to reading your book.

    • He IP banned me once. It didn’t take.

    • Great. I’m not an enemy.

      You seem to really have a bug up your ass abut religion (amazing how your metaphors change when you up you RS intake). Since getting into this diet, I’ve tried to read up as much as I can on hunter gatherer societies that have been written about by Western observers ala Weston Price and many others. One aspect of their cultures that seems universal is an extremely deep level of religion/spirituality/nysticism/superstition, what ever you choose to call it.

      It’s always seemed discordant to me that a wide swath of the “paleo community” admires our anscestors for their food intake, health and physical fitness, yet ignores this aspect of their universe that is likely just as critical for the overall well being – and is just as much a product of evolution as any physical traits.

      I don’t know where you fall on all this, but on the surface you seem to enjoy delving deeply into scientific minutiae, while heaping scorn on the supernatural. There are many that view science as a poor substitute for spirtuality – an ersatz spritiuality doomed to failure. Food for thought……..

    • I see it all as an issue of the quality of knowledge.

      Here I explain it:

      http://vimeo.com/54314333

    • LeonRover says:

      Hmm, “wry grin” & “eye twinkle” is what directors get actors to do in THEIR production. It does not appear in the literal text of a blog or comment: it has be inferred by the recipient.

      Thus, ambiguity.

      The art of the writer &/or spin doctor is to control any subtextual inference in favour of the patron.

      It seems that your explicit expression does not elicit your own visually (as in aselfie, were you to attach one) expressed subtext

    • LeonRover says:

      Erratum: (as in a selfie .. .. ..)

    • Ah, but this is why I tend to prefer the ambiguous written word over the far more explicit image, or even way more, moving image. They are all expressions of art.

      I think of my written dismissals as art.

      I love to go back and read them a dozen times. ;)

    • LeonRover says:

      We are ad idem.

      It is one my fun things to explore verbal, linguistic and other things to try make explicit to others the implicit, the contextual, the subtextual they have internalized without recognition.

      To make conscious the unrecognized intellectual meme infection, si voux voulez.

      As adwertisers say “It the mark of arketing”.

    • @Doug – “One aspect of their cultures that seems universal is an extremely deep level of religion/spirituality/nysticism/superstition, what ever you choose to call it.”

      Yeah, some tribes are so religious, that they managed to convert a christian missionary Daniel Everett to atheism.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ad6V9AKt24U

      Apparently Piraha tribe has a language with evidence-check built in. For each information you get you need to provide the source of the information. Like – “There is a dangerous predator there, I saw it”, or “there is an abundance of fish, X saw it and told me”. This apparently didn’t work well with advocating religion with its lack of evidence as a rule.

      Besides currently many find a better equivalent of spirituality in science, conteplating wonders of the real world. Why bother emoting over some imaginary friends if you have 400 billion galaxies each with 100 biliion stars to be amazed with? Wy Here you have some songs from The Symphony of Science song list.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgiXGELjbc&list=RDzSgiXGELjbc

    • LeonRover says:

      We are ad idem, you on posts, I on comments. ;)

  21. I take great issue with the profane and tendentious characterisation of Jesus Christ in this post.

    He was a craftsman, an artist, and a chap who never once scrimped on fixings to save a few quid: a carpenter, in short, and not a mere fucking handyman!

    • LeonRover says:

      Yeah, and Our Celestial Craftsman made sure that only a Licenced Member of the Joiners Local supervised the crucifix construction.

  22. Man, I am just trying to live life to the fullest and stay healthy.

    From my observations: Mans wisdom is but foolishness to GOD

    But my gut is feeling better.

  23. Rita Weasel says:

    Learning that gut bugs are responsible for evolution pretty much blew my mind. Do you think the gut bugs are also responsible for who we are attracted to?

    • LeonRover says:

      Hmmm,

      only if “gut feelings” is a metaphor for intuiton.

    • Rita Weasel says:

      I mean, if immunology helps explain how people subconsciously choose whom to mate with, might it also be possible for gut bugs to seek out complimentary gut bugs for the sake of self-preservation/evolution? There are so many unexplained reasons for why we are attracted to this person and not that person. I just thought maybe the biological gut had more to do with that interaction than the literary gut (by literary, I do not mean the gut bugs that read, btw)

  24. EatLessMoveMoore says:

    So you post your response to one of my comments but not the actual comment itself? That’s really beneath you, Rich. It’s like something Jimmy would do. Wait, come to think of it it’s something he HAS done.

  25. EatLessMoveMoore says:

    I stand corrected! Yes, I am capable of admitting mistakes – unlike, say, someone else who is apparently as infallible as the Pope. Oops, wrong again – he did admit to making some obscene profits off the whole Kimkins fiasco. Don’t recall any of it actually being given back, though…but I could also be mistaken on that.

    • Wow, you don’t even miss a beat slamming Jimmy even when admitting you were wrong, and even to dig down nearly a decade.

      You must be a trust find baby, and this is just your deal.

      So loathsome.

      But, I entertain you because for all of Jimmy’s faults, you actually make people much prefer him over you.

  26. EatLessMoveMoore says:

    Perhaps you can explain to posterity, then, why an avowed young-earth creationist was allowed to be de facto kingmaker for a movement predicated upon ancestral living. Pretty soon Keto Clarity will be unleashed on an unsuspecting public and just watch the link love roll in…

  27. “de facto kingmaker for a movement ”

    And this is why I hate you, though I tolerate you.

    You smuggle in premises that are so wrong they aren’t even worth trying to refute.

    You really do need help. At times, I have to even wonder if you’re Jimmy.

  28. EatLessMoveMoore says:

    In fact, Wooo’s already done invaluable advance work on that front – touting keto as the new penicillin (when it’s already long since been debunked by Dr. Harris, CarbSane, and many others – yourself included!).

    • Wooo is young and dumb, and now fills her day doing selfies on Twitter for her reverse harem, including Sean Abbott. She’s 30. Keto is awesome when you’re 30. 45-50, not so much and instead of short term, just IF.

  29. EatLessMoveMoore says:

    If none of what I’ve said is even remotely true, then explain why people like Robb Wolf and Mark Sisson haven’t distanced themselves from him.

    • “then explain why people like Robb Wolf and Mark Sisson haven’t distanced themselves from him.”

      Give me the dates of both Sisson and Wolf’s last appearance on LLVLC podcast. I’m asking, only because I don’t know. I stopped listening about two years ago.

      I would go on Jimmy’s show again, but only to talk about RS and the problem with VLC. On my last appearance, it was actually after I had come out about how calories count.

      “Distanced themselves.” What the fuck does that even mean? See, this is why I hate you, and I do hate you, you must know. You are more dishonest than Jimmy. You operate on innuendo and implications.

      Who are you, Melissa?

    • gabriella kadar says:

      Melissa wouldn’t ask you to explain anything. Besides, it seems she has a real job now. ELMM not so much.

  30. EatLessMoveMoore says:

    Melissa, unfortunately, has been largely silenced by the Paleo Patriarchy (the bro science dudes). Of course, I’m sure she wouldn’t characterize it that way, but, come on, her mojo’s on permanent vacation. It’s cool that Richard’s magnanimous about it now but, let’s face it, he really hit her where it hurt.

    • “Melissa, unfortunately, has been largely silenced”

      There is clearly no pathetically ignorant bromide you will not allow yourself to expose your ignorance and idiocy in uttering.

      Amazing,

  31. EatLessMoveMoore says:

    Oh come on, Richard. CarbSane and Melissa were both slut-shamed by yourself, Robb, and many other scions of Bro Science – and I’ve yet to hear a formal apology from any of them. In the end, it is the women who just gave up. True, it may have been out of frustration trying to reform an irredeemable system (as Melissa states) – but the result has been a de facto silencing.

    • “has been a de facto silencing”

      You really are a moron. “De facto” because, they don’t blog about it, anymore? Neither do I. Have I been SILENCED?

      You’re such a dumbshit moron, one that falls for any convenient bromide.

      As far as I can tell, Melissa, Evelyn, and the whole world can blog about any fucking thing they like, anytime they like, you pathetic braindead fucktard.

      Oh, you mean that they, like me, don’t care to blog about it anymore, for whatever our personal reasons, you shit-for-“brains?”

      Or, do you mean that I’m more popular and acknowledged, in spite of all of it, and they are basically footnotes and when they do mention it, declare victory by calling it hopeless?

      Or, is it that that others like Mark and Robb simply saw no future in either of them, on any level while at the same time, have been open to perhaps promoting a future I envision because I stopped the BS and started delivering stuff people could use?

      I have never hated a commenter more than I hate you. I just want you to know that.

  32. EatLessMoveMoore says:

    No, Richard – you couldn’t be ‘silenced’ for the same reason a person of color couldn’t be guilty of institutional racism. People such as yourseld ARE Paleo, and as such control the terms of debate and set the parameters within which women and persons of color are allowed to operate. Melissa and CarbSane’s cardinal sins were to question that power structure. And no, they were not successful, but perhaps made the arena just a LITTLE safer for those who aren’t white, male, and privileged.

  33. EatLessMoveMoore says:

    And so goes the argument posed by the Uncle Toms of feminism (see also: Stefani Ruper). Women who defend Richard are usually only demonstrating how tighly wrapped they remain in the chains of patriarchy. Remember: even in the dark days of slavery there were always “house slaves” who could be counted on to praise the massa…

  34. EatLessMoveMoore says:

    Rita –
    To address your comment (and perhaps make the distinction clearer), a person of color is generally capable of prejudice – not racism. Racism implies institutional power, which persons of color by and large do not have. This is why measures like affirmative action are still needed – to level (or at least attempt to level) the playing field after thousands of years of male power and white privilege.

    • @EatLessMoveMoore

      White people have institutionalized power? Is that why my uncles, that came from another country, and didn’t speak the language, went on to become more successful than the majority of white people I know? They didn’t do it with affirmative action, one of them started his own trucking company, with his own money, just working, and saving up to buy his own truck.

      What power do the majority of men, or white people have exactly that the rest of the citizens in this country don’t? Hell, even with a black president, who only got voted in because the MAJORITY of the voters, voted for him, you still think there’s a need for affirmative action, not that there ever was a need.

      Guess what, if one white guy somewhere holds some power in government, that does not mean that white people everywhere hold power in government. It doesn’t even mean he has any interest in helping other white people.

      I wonder how affirmative action even came into existence without our evil white overlords putting a stop to it.

      But yeah, I guess I must be another uncle Tom, right? Isn’t that right. you self-loathing bigot, you?

    • Wasting your time, MC. Same troll, different day.

    • I’ll take your word for it. There was just so much wrong with her posts, I felt I had to say something :D

    • It’s like trying to have a conversation with a mid-60s era Chinese cultural revolutionary.

    • La Frite says:

      “thousands of years of male power and white privilege.”

      Haha, someone needs to dig history a bit more … :D :D

    • LeonRover says:

      Have a razzia on elmm as uou dealt with The Razwell last year.

      Here is the FTA theme song for the hunt –

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3-YeY__E_g

      or

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMLewoEWqfU

      Sláinte

    • “Haha, someone needs to dig history a bit more …”

      For example:

      – Number of black African slaves brought to the Caribbean and Latin America: 11 MILLION.

      – Number of black African slaves brought to the shores of N America: 388 THOUSAND

      – Number of people enslaved by the Arab slave trade of all races, including European whites from 650 – 1900: 10-18 million

      – Number of Saqaliba (white Europeans) enslaved by the Arabs during the 8th & 9th century: 1-2 million

      – Number of british merchant ships and warships captured by the Barbary Corsairs with the sailors being tuned into slaves: 466 merchant ships, 160 naval ships.

      Of course, I could go on and on, by I doubt it will sway ELMM from the comfort of her brainless and ignorant feminism.

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