11. And The Vegetables Shall Know Their Place Throughout the Land; as Shall They Know Their Master: Meat

Just for another quickie in my running, unofficial series on the undue status vegetables in the Paleo diet.

I’m for discrimination: vegetables, in their place. Here’s another example. Click to ‘hi’.

Meat Vegetable Garnish
Meat with Vegetable Garnish

Now there’s the way, folks. Hey, there’s even lots of veggie variety; we’ve got: carrot, onion, celery, red, yellow, green bell pepper, cauliflower and some broccoli. Just not too much! The grassfed NY cut and a good sized Flank steak were pan fried to medium rare, rested, then sliced to toss in for just the last seconds. The rest is pretty much the same as here.

The difference is, beef stock in place of chicken and red curry, twice as much, in place of green.


  1. Ned Kock on February 5, 2011 at 17:36

    Hi Richard. As usual you are not only right, but right in a “scary” way. Folks like me keep analyzing data like crazy and end up getting to where you pointed us at in the first place. I haven’t posted yet on this, but a hint is on this post here: bit.ly/htz7Ol.

    Guess what? The main problem with wheat in the China Study may be that it displaces animal food, not that it is bad per se (with exception of celiacs; who are a very small minority, by the way). I know that this is controversial, but the data points in this direction.

    Wheat consumption is strongly and NEGATIVELY correlated with animal food (and particular fat) consumption in the China Study data. Rice is not. When you look at rice’s impact on various health indicators, it seems great. Like rice is some kind of miracle drug.

    Why is that? Maybe it is because of this: rice is POSITIVELY correlated with animal food, and particularly fat, consumption.

    The picture that is emerging is that whatever you eat, vegetables and fruits included, if they displace animal flesh you will end up with disease down the road. If not, you’ll be just fine.

    And animal fat, even more than protein, seems to be the key.

    • gallier2 on February 6, 2011 at 02:43

      Yes, that makes sense, rice is a good vehicle for fat. Except for croissant (hey french paradox again) I don’t know a good way to combine a lot of wheat with animal fat. Pancake? can be greasy but it’s not that much fat in the end, it’s only that its highly visible. Cake? quite fat, but too often the wrong kind, trans-laden margarine. Bread, as vehicle for butter and meat cuts or cheese, would work but you need to go back to make sandwiches like grandma did (i.e. the butter thicker than the breadslice).

      • gallier2 on February 6, 2011 at 02:48

        Fu.., …it’s only that it’s highly visible…

    • Ned Kock on February 6, 2011 at 08:21

      Yes gallier2. I know this may sound a bit confusing, as wheat seems to be the “new saturated fat”. But if we don’t go where the data truly points us we may end up making the same mistake that the proponents of the lipid hypothesis made, just this time with a new food item.

      We cannot ignore the French, or the long-living traditional Greek who also consume wheat in a rough, less processed form than we do.

      Btw, above where I said “if they displace animal flesh”, that should have been “if they displace animal foods”. This includes eggs and aged cheese, for example.

      • Paul C on February 7, 2011 at 12:06

        Ned, I have been viewing wheat as three separate problems (economics and politics aside):
        1) Carbohydrate overload and all of its associated hormone issues
        2) Gluten
        3) Lectins

        Your point addresses why #1 isn’t a problem for rice generally, and #2 and #3 are not problems for white rice either.

        Some would argue that #2 and #3 for wheat are problems for everyone to some degree, not just what medicine labels as celiac disease. When you read Robb Wolf’s description of the chemical process of the damage, if we all get the damage then it is a matter of degree and symptom display that separate us.

        Your points are well taken. It is tempting to load everything on a scapegoat.

      • Paul C on February 8, 2011 at 14:01

        Looking up commodity stats: France consumes 1/2 the wheat the USA consumes, with less than 1/4 of the population. That seems to say a French person eats twice as much wheat as someone from the USA. I’m sure it’s more complicated than that, but I was really expecting the opposite. Greece also consumes 50% more wheat per capita than the USA. The stats came from a page on spectrumcommodities.com.

        Now when I look at corn consumption, it is beyond opposite. France consumes 1/25 of the corn with 1/4 of the population, and Greece didn’t even make the list they must consume so little.

        Speculation: In the USA, corn displaces a huge amount of animal products, and wheat displaces less, but adds to the problem. In France and Greece, corn displaces very little animal products, and wheat a little more, resulting in far less displacement, with corn being the prime difference.

    • Richard Nikoley on February 6, 2011 at 09:48


      “Hi Richard. As usual you are not only right, but right in a “scary” way. Folks like me keep analyzing data like crazy and end up getting to where you pointed us at in the first place.”

      Well I just go with what makes sense to me in an evolutionary context. Seems to me that when meat was available, everything else would take back seat — except for flavoring, variety, texture. I do love the crunch of veggies when cooked right, or even raw. But there’s just no way to look at the data and not conclude that animal products are the true super foods and when you eat less of them and more of the so-called “super foods” you are getting less super nutrition. That’s just 1+1 stuff.

      But you just keep doing what you’re doing, along with the other science guys, so I can come in and say “They’re fuckin’ right!”

      • Ned Kock on February 6, 2011 at 16:35

        Hey Richard.

        Some call it intuition; I call it being very smart, maybe in a subconscious way.

        Hyper-Peter often says that Kwaśniewski is right most of the time, even though he (K) doesn’t explain why in too much scientific detail.

        You are the Kwaśniewski of the paleo crowd.

        And you know I am not just trying to get referrals from you. You already did that.

    • Bill on February 6, 2011 at 13:53

      I reckon that wheat and other grains are toxic and far reaching in damaging health over a lifetime of consumption.
      Looking back at my ailments through life, I blame grains for glue ear and deafness as an infant and adolescent. Tonsils and adenoids removed at 6 years. Plagued with chest/ear infections up to late teens. Alopecia areata in my mid 40’s.
      Since eliminating grains 5 years ago, no infections, no alopecia for the past 3 years. I reckon that it can take 5 years to recover and some damage may be irreparable.
      I look at grains as a toxic drip that affects the immune system and digestive system in ways that are not yet fully understood. Celiac is the extreme end but as we age, the toxins steadily break systems down.
      I’m off them for life now. I’m not going to start eating again, for my hair to fall out, just to prove I’m right!

      • Ned Kock on February 6, 2011 at 16:40

        Hi Bill.

        For some, removing wheat from the diet works like a miracle, and maybe that is because wheat is bad for them.

        Nevertheless, I’d suggest taking a look at what you started eating more after ditching the wheat. Maybe THAT is what was making all the difference – what you were missing.

        Chris M. posted on choline not too long ago. And there are the fat-soluble vitamins, plus the fat itself, and the protein.

        If you eat the addictive (to me) wheat products, you’ll either displace animal foods or you’ll eat both in large amounts.

        Either option is going to be bad for you; the latter via massive body fat gain.

      • Jess on February 8, 2011 at 23:56

        Reading through all of Whole Health Source, that also appears to be Stephan’s view on things. A shift away from healthy natural fats, with their high density of fat-soluble vitamins, to a diet high in un-treated grains high in nutrient leeching lectins is one of the main topic of his posts. From what I’ve read, it seems like over-eating is caused not only by sugar/industrial oil induced leptin resistance and inflammation, but from the body trying to make up for decreased dietary intake of fat soluble vitamins.

  2. Alan M on February 5, 2011 at 17:44

    That’s pretty much my staple meal. Though, I usually use ground beef.

    I used to cut up fresh veggies but have since migrated to the frozen variety. It’s much easier. Sometimes I’ll throw in some greens too–turnip, collard, etc.

    The only thing I don’t use is stock. I wish I did, but the gobs of Kerrygold suffices. My stock always turns into stew. I really should save some using your ice tray method.

  3. Katie "Wellness Mama" on February 5, 2011 at 18:42

    A similar dish is a staple around here too. My 4 year old told me the other day: “I don’t really like vegetables, but I eat them if they are mixed with meat, oh and butter!.”

    • LeonRover on February 6, 2011 at 01:37

      Oh, my – hasn’t she got it right!

      Don’ let her be “educated” out of it over the next 10 years.

  4. kevin on February 5, 2011 at 18:56

    where do you buy the curry pastes from in sf bay area? thanks!

    • Richard Nikoley on February 5, 2011 at 22:22

      Ranch 99 Market. An Asian supermarket chain. I believ they have a website with locations. Huge variety of all sorts of curries, as well as coconut milk.

      • kevin on February 6, 2011 at 10:44

        cool thanks. i usually buy tender coconut from there.

  5. Christian on February 5, 2011 at 19:27

    Looks delicious. Around here it’s usually vegetables and tofu. Simmered in a light teriyaki sauce.

  6. Kristján on February 6, 2011 at 01:30

    This looks very good and the vegetables are in the place they should be, mixed in with a whole bunch of meat.

  7. Nigel Kinbrum on February 6, 2011 at 03:18

    I got a load of sprouted mixed beans cheap at the Co-op, as nobody was buying them (I wonder why?). They tasted disgusting raw, so I microwaved them with a little water & Losalt and added a big knob of Anchor butter. Mmmm!

    Boy, did I produce methane! :-D Vegetarians & vegans are to blame for climate change.

  8. Kim on February 6, 2011 at 03:44

    This philosophy has made feeding my toddler SO much easier. The kid LOVES meat. I serve it to him 3-4 times a day (his caregivers probably think I’m nuts) with veggies and butter. I no longer worry if he leaves the veggies on his try, as the most nutrition is in the meat. Whoever has a problem feeding toddlers meat just isn’t trying.

    • Emily Deans, M.D. on February 6, 2011 at 09:04

      Both my kids will go nuts for meat. I have to hide the eggs and veggies in other things sometimes, and of course they will eat fruit and anything sugary without prompting. But if there are “natural” child sorts of cravings for food – I would say sugar and meat and salt. Bitter (veggies), not so much.

  9. Michael on February 6, 2011 at 06:39

    Gotta ask, whose thumb is that right in the middle of the picture? ;) ;) ;)

  10. Mallory on February 6, 2011 at 09:28

    looks superb!!! i have gotten in the habit of cooking big roast viz crock pot or low heat over and throwin in what veggies i have so when i dish it out, the vegetables come too as they should…with lotsa meat

    • rob on February 6, 2011 at 10:35

      Making a 3.5 pound roast beast this afternoon, cooking it low and slow and then finishing it at 500 degrees. Less cleanup than the crock pot.

  11. Jan on February 6, 2011 at 10:41

    My youngest, who is now 16, is very particular about fruits and vegetables but will eat just about any type of animal food you stick in front of him. I have several pounds of grass-finished beef liver in my freezer and make it about 3 times a month – my husband eats it because I stick it in front of him (usually buried in bacon and sauteed onions), but the kid gobbles it up. He would quite happily live off of meats, eggs, cheese, butter, and full-fat, vat pasteurized, non-homogenized milk. I more or less let him, with the occasional serving of green beans, broccoli, raw carrots, celery or apple or banana. He’s the leanest, healthiest kid I’ve ever seen, and you should see his six-pack abs.

  12. Susan on February 6, 2011 at 13:41

    Got a question: For me to eat a good amount of animal foods each day, I pretty much CAN’T eat much else, because I just get so uncomfortably full. However, I do need some carbs or I don’t feel well -no energy for sports or exercise and a bit of depression. Sometimes, it just seems like it would be easier to eat some sugar with my meat, instead of trying to force in a sweet potato. I’m a 140 pound 5’7″ female and can eat about 1/3 pound of meat, 2 eggs and a slice of liverwurst everyday. I can drink a glass of milk with each meal, but stuffing in fibrous veggies is really tough. It just brings life to a standstill for hours after eating. I use the Leangains IF eating window and like it, I’m just not sure how to get in my animal foods and enough carbs. Thanks for any input…

    • Richard Nikoley on February 6, 2011 at 16:12

      Simple, Susan. Steamed rice. No gluten. Just starch, far better than sugar. As much or as little as you need. I often feel really good after a meat curry dish with 2-3 tbsp of rice.

    • rob on February 7, 2011 at 09:40

      I crunched some numbers and it appears that your total caloric intake, assuming two glasses of whole milk per day, is around 880 calories per day, which if maintained long enough would probably lead to your death?

      Or do you mean you eat that twice a day (which would result in a reasonable 1760 calories).

      • Susan on February 7, 2011 at 10:39

        No! Not death! :) Thanks for the input. I generally have a noontime meal of as big a hamburger with cheese as I can possibly eat with a big glass of milk. And then even though I am not hungry I have a couple eggs and liverwurst (both drenched in butter) around 7 with another glass of milk. When I put it into Fitday (with all the added butter) I get about 1400. I am trying to eat more, but am unsure about that, as it seems forced. And I definitely have plenty of fat on my body. I did just render some buffalo fat and can throw an extra TBL into my meat. And I will add in some rice as suggested by Richard.

        For exercise I play tennis/volleyball about twice a week, take a daily stroll, do interval stuff about 2 a week and do a short weight lifting session once a week.

      • Paul C on February 7, 2011 at 13:56

        1400 is a starvation diet for a smaller person in a coma. 2200 would be more like it for an active person of your size, just to maintain weight.

      • Andrea on March 11, 2011 at 10:55


        assuming an active metabolism, you are right. However, even a single year of conventional ‘dieting’ can result in drastically reduced metabolic rate. Chances are, if Susan truly is eating whenever she is hungry (and it looks as though she’s actually eating whenever she’s not too full to do so) then she is almost certainly consuming enough calories to make up for what she’s burning. I would actually be more concerned about getting enough vitamins/minerals in the food she does manage to eat; malnutrition might be a concern, even if starvation is not.

      • Susan on March 11, 2011 at 11:18

        Thanks for the reply, I am driven mad by the fact that I am often told I need to eat more, and yet I’m fat! I think I’m already eating the most highly nutritious foods, so I don’t know how to solve it! In fact, I am up to 150 pounds now without changing anything. Guess it’s menopause. Wish there was a Female Animal.

  13. jerry on February 7, 2011 at 00:51

    hey Richard, been following your blog for a while now and truly enjoy the great info, especially on the dieting. i have recently cut down on the amount of fruits and vegetables i eat after reading your posts and have really upped my meat intake.

    i just have one question. do you consider sausages , hot dogs, etc. as quality sources of protein or should i avoid these?

    thanks again for everything and so far great job on your transformation!

    • Richard Nikoley on February 7, 2011 at 07:00

      Well Jerry, I think some of the artisanal stuff is pretty reasonable on sodium and also has veggies matter totally in its place, and spices, so yea, pretty decent. If avoid most popular commercial brand because, well, you know what they say about sausages & politics.

    • Richard Nikoley on February 7, 2011 at 07:01

      And pate is liver, of course, so two thumbs up.

  14. Meatless Monday My Ass! Here’s Some Gristle To Chew On! on February 8, 2011 at 10:23

    […] yet, let Richard Nikoley tell her where her vegetables […]

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