Last evening I was surprised to get an email from Harley Johnstone, aka Durianrider, co-leader of the 30 Bananas a Day! website, a low-fat raw vegan resource with member forums and such.
Champ, someone said you would be up for a live debate with me. Sean Croxton and Daniel Vitalis have flaked. You man enough? ;)
Well I have no idea about either Sean or Daniel here, but I don’t mind playing 3rd fiddle at all. I’m game. My only conditions in accepting the challenge are that it’s structured in some sort of a neutral way to whatever extent possible (that neither he nor I control things so as to create an un-sporstman advantage), that it be in a real debate format with time limits, and that we both agree to post the recording on our respective sites regardless of percieved outcome.
I welcome the challenge.
After tweeting about this earlier I was not at all surprised to get back a bunch of mentions about it. Seems this has the potential to be a pretty popular event, especially so if it can be done live. I think it will be fun and enlightening for all. Somebody, including myself, might even learn something.
I want to make something clear, however. While I certainly enjoy and soak up the cheerleading and smacktalk from the sidelines and all, should this debate happen, you should expect that I will conduct myself wholly in line with how such a debate ought to be conducted, in line with recognized practices of civil discourse. Sure, it should be lively and frank, but anyone expecting that I would conduct myself as I do in blog posts is liable to be disappointed.
I’ll be prepared. Thanks to Julianne Taylor, I have someplace to start: 30 Bananas a day Durianrider, an analysis of his ‘paleo’ vegan diet.
Onward.
Update 3/6: OK, the debate is on. It will be held at 6PM PST on a Tuesday evening 1-3 weeks from now (minimum 1 week to promote). It will be hosted / moderated by Steven Prussack of Raw Vegan Radio and through email contact I am firmly confident and comfortable that he plans for an open, pro, fair exchange. No doubt about it. As you will immediately see from his blog, he has no fear of his listeners and readers hearing the likes of Sally Fallon, Dr. Mercola, Bowden, Sisson and others. Alright, so here we go. And thanks to both Harley for the challenge and to Steven for offering to host it.
Get the buzz going and help make this happen. You know what to do. Facebook & Twitter, baby! Button up top.
rob 
Dave Fish 
Dean 
Mark 
Arlo 
Paul 
JP 
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Imo the best way to settle a dispute about the best nutritional practices is for everyone involved to get naked.
And fight to the death!
Thunderdome … two men enter, one man leaves.
Wish there was a “like” button here. So, LIKE. Very witty here.
Haha – don’t you wish. : ) Hilarious. Luckily, I have no need for this nudist mudwrasseling… have only eyes for Roberto Bolle.
Rob,
Actually, while it might seem like “getting naked” would intuitively be the best option, the reality is that there is more to body composition than just diet. That is why you see men and women on both pure vegetarian/vegan diets with excellent body composition, and people on low carb/paleo/mostly animal based diets who also have excellent body composition. Conversely, you see many adherents to both opposing dietary approaches who do NOT have ideal body composition. So that is why using the anecdotal evidence of just looking at the shirtless body of the proponent of either diet doesn’t tell you much about the efficacy of either diet for the population in general. The reason for this is that there so many confounding variables between individuals that can determine body composition, that have NOTHING to do with diet. Some examples are:
1. Genetic variability – Each person’s unique genetic makeup determines how much body fat they retain, and while diet might optimize gene expression to produce the optimal results for THAT INDIVIDUAL, if person A eating a great diet goes up against a person B who is genetically gifted, in the sense that person B is naturally lean and carries very little body fat, it doesn’t matter how strict person A is, or what type of diet he tries, because person B will have a great genetic advantage.
2. Age – Richard is a good 20 years older than Hartley “Durianrider” Johnstone is. Even if Richard’s diet is optimal for him, his hormone levels will probably never be as good as it was 20 years ago, and thus Durianrider will have the upper hand. Furthermore, the older you are the more years you have had to damage your metabolism, and I believe Richard has alluded to his early decades being one where he consumed the standard American diet. A few decades of that sort of eating can cause harm to ones metabolism. While most of this metabolic damage can be rectified, depending on the extent of the damage, sometimes you can never FULLY correct it.
3. Sleep/Rest – The amount of rest you get can greatly alter your body composition, because of the hormonal effect that rest has and the recuperative effects it has on the body . To ensure that this is a fair competition, both individuals must have equal rest. There is no way to ensure this, unless we observe them for a long time, and note down their sleeping patterns. This is impractical since they both are not living in controlled laboratory conditions. My hunch is that because Durianrider works as a health and fitness coach (according to his own description of his occupation) and has a girlfriend, and Richard is an older married gentlemen who is a busy entrepreneur, Richard probably gets less rest than Durianrider.
In short there are so many confounding variables between both Richard and Durianrider, that merely getting naked tells us virtually NOTHING about which diet is optimal for the population at large. Unless Richard and Durianrider are both identical twins, living the exact same lifestyle, and the only significant difference is that one abides by a Paleo diet, while the other is a raw vegan, any comparison based on physicality is misguided. This is why I find such debates to be efforts in futility. If veganism works to give Durianrider optimal blood work, body composition, stamina, and overall mental tranquility, then more power to him. If Paleo induces great results for Richard (which it has based on the stellar before and after results), and gives him good body composition and blood work for his age, stamina, and overall mental tranquility, good for him as well. Ultimately, the only truly wrong answer here is the dogmatic assertion that one diet works equally well and is equally sustainable for everyone. Just as we all wear different shoe sizes, have different complexions, have different IQs, are different heights, and have innumerable other variations between us, it makes sense that maybe we are all suited to equally varying diets. Epidemiologically studies, of people eating a wide variety of diets from around the world, definitely substantiate this fact.
-Lawrence Louis
Fantastic. Some of these people are borderline fanatic cultists, if eating a mainly fruit diet makes you enjoy life more and enhances your health more power to you. A good deal of them seem to be delusional though reveling in their emaciated frames, lack of sex drive, and their radicalized ideas equating livestock with human beings.
I hope for the primal community’s sake you get your arse handed to you.
Yes, “Professor.”
Laf
Not bloody likely. DurianRider’s “scientific” claims have more holes in them than Swiss cheese. I don’t think Richard will have much trouble shooting down Harley’s N=1 evidence.
That isn’t going to happen. Do you honestly think Banana Boy can provide a sound reasons for wasting away while eating a spider monkey’s diet? You’re just a typical anonymous and trolling jackass.
Travis:
You’re late to the bus. See, the logic is that I am such a blight on the Primal…whatever, that in the long run it will be worth it if a 16,000,000 year old old tree swinging diet comes out on top over a 10,ooo – 20,000 year old human diet.
Such is the motivation of the entrenched. He does, even in anonymity, insist upon being a “professor.”
Laf
Blight. I knew I was in good company in these parts.
What’s always bugged me the most about some vegans is their belief that they are evolving to the “superior” next stage of being human due to “enlightenment”. They are the chosen ones, carrying the torch of rectitude in a sea of iniquity, suffering for us all to prove that we can rise above our nutritional needs as a species. I had several conversations some years back with a vegan on this very subject; he was trying to convert me to the religion by claiming that the power of my mind could change my body’s dietary needs. He truly believed he was part of the next evolution of the human species and had a colossal ego to match. Warped.
I’d grab some popcorn, but well I don’t eat popcorn. This should get interesting…
It will definitely be interesting but I hope it is more productive than the typical political debate where the candidates just use their time to repeat their talking points and never really address the question or issue at hand.
What format will you be using? Something like LiveMeeting, WebEx, or GoToMeeting? They all offer recording features.
That hasn’t been mentioned yet but I assume that if Harley had this in mind he has some idea of the platform to use. Split screen video would be cool. He did mention using a format where each participant has 2 minutes to state his case, followed by each of us asking questions of the other.
Yea, I don’t like the fake political debates where softball questions are presented by a panel rather than the participants themselves.
I’d pay to see you wipe the floor with Durianrider’s ass!
Saw his photo……. where’s the beef? The guy has the body of a 12 year old.
This sounds like fun!
Champ?
Is this guy trapped in an 80s sitcom?
Was that really him on B.J. and the Bear?
I thought he looked familiar!
Looking forward to this!
(Just, uh… FYI, as I was scrolling down to comment I glanced to the right and saw the big-ass words ‘VEGGIE PROTEIN: ARE YOU GETTING ENOUGH PROTEIN?! 100% VEGAN’. Leads here.)
Oh, Googleads, you make me chuckle.
Best of luck in the debate! Rooting for ya.
i speculate that croxton and vitalis declined because it’d be a lot like pity-sex: it just makes you feel bad about yourself for doing it.
I hope this happens, but I think the bannana guy will find a way to bow out.
That’s his right, of course. I’ve already emailed him with a link to this post so that’s it’s clear I’m on the hook.
Your a better man than me Richard. To me his ideas and believes aren’t worth my time.
I know. I lived it!
BUT…if this will help people to see the ignorance in his ‘UN-ecological’ sound ideal of
shipping 30 bananas a day to everyone in the world, INCLUDING the Inuit, is fruity,
pun intended, and a down right shame to the cult. YES…CULT!
Best wishes Richard and I’ll be watching.
Sounds like it would be very interesting.
I can understand why people feel the want or need to go Veg, but I cannot for the life of me understand the low fat fruit angle. Why no nuts or fats? How can he not understand he has all this “energy” because he is burning sugar?
I do however take the I unpopular stance of saying I think he looks rather ok. A little on the slim, underdeveloped side in the upper body but he seems to concentrate on running and cycling. Ive seen photos of him on facebook (Durianrider Vegano) and his legs look rather spectacular.
People talk about his lack up upper body strength as if the mere act of eating a steak would result in muscularity. I happen to know lots of skinny ass boys who eat meat who have the same type of frame. In fact if I were to show Harley’s photo around and said told people he was a guitar player in a band who smoked a pack a day, drank whiskey and lived off burritos, no one would claim his body looked all that bad. I guess it is his own fault though. He likes to throw stones.
Anyway, looking forward to it. Maybe you should contact the Intelligence Squared people ;)
This is the kind of thing Taubes was talking about in regards to pure calories. Restrict a person’s calories and the body will naturally become sluggish so as to remain homeostatic. I can only assume, based on Durians experience and CastleGroks, that the opposite is also true.
But ah, who knows. I wonder if Durian is comparable to CG metabolically, because CG was always consuming a tremendous amount of calories no matter what their source.
Interesting never-the-less.
wow some extreme endurance athletes discovered that replacing the typical crappy carb foods with fruit increased performance.
Then the obvious next conclusion was reached…that it must be the ideal human diet…double face palm.
A perfect demonstration of the complete lack of critical thinking skills.
Christ,
You hit the nail right on the head. He has committed a major logical fallacy. This is the primary problem with his style of thinking. He extends to his diet, which may work well for HIM and his particular high performance activities, to everyone, but in reality it may wreak havoc for someone who does not engage in long high endurance activities. As I always like to say, just because the space shuttle uses liquid hydrogen to propel it to unimaginable speeds, does NOT mean that you can put the same liquid hydrogen in your car, which is meant to run on gas, and expect it to go fast. In fact, if you were to try to do that the only thing that will happen is it won’t start, or worse yet, it could explode on you.
-Lawrence Louis
You can’t make the debate too long, as Dunsten will surely need one of his bi-hourly bowel movements…
This is something I’ve been pondering. Feces is mostly bacterial waste, so it makes sense that those who consume a lot of carbohydrates (ie: bacteria food) would generate more. We in western culture seem overly consumed with the idea of having regular bowel movements, but I wonder about what level of gut bacteria is good or bad, or just plain normal.
One of the first things I noticed when I went primal/paleo was that my mouth health improved dramatically and immediately. No wonder, I wasn’t feed the bacteria in my mouth that were producing acid. What I wonder about now is how mouth health is affected in regards to glucose vs fructose consumption.
you should check out the latest post on letthemeatmeat.com
it’s an interview with a former 30BaD 19yo guy from Turkey
comments are as worth reading as the interview itself.
Cheers Richard
Yes, I’ve read that interview. Some comments as well.
On the philosophy part, to say I disagree would be an enormous understatement. He has no values (a priori impossible), morals, sense of right or wrong, good or bad, because he’s conflating these concepts with their neolithic, ideological counterparts.
Objective morality is as real (and non-mystical) as the beating of a human heart.
I have a post in planning about this, if I ever settle down and write it.
well that’s not the part i was referring to
dude’s only 19 too..
Yea, I get that.
Yeah, very interesting read but I second Nikoley with the philosophy.
I’d like you encourage you to find the time to do that post. I think it would be interesting.
1st question : Do you ever get tired of eating the same food 70 times a day ?
Kudos for taking this on Richard! This is going to be a high profile event in both paleo and vegan camps.
I am sure you’ve got the chops to take Har(d)ly (aka DurianRider) down. I am not sure where you are going to focus – on the evolutionary ideas behind paleo, or the nutritionally incomplete nature of veganism, or perhaps the unsustainability of everyone on the planet eating 30 (fucking) bananas a day – both nutritionally and ecologically.
But just a few scientific references from both biology and anthropology should see the case made for paleo/meat eating. Chuck in the scieintific evidence of malnourished brains and the ‘limp dicks’ of vegans and it should be an open and shut case!
Good luck and please crush the fuck out of him!
To quote Flounder from Animal House ” “Oh, boy, is this great!?”
I think the important part is to keep away from n=1 and anecdotal evidence. It is not possible to argue against anecdotal evidence. You just have to say “Well, I can’t speak to your anecdotes, but here’s what the science/research says.”
Also note that he repeatedly conflates low-carb with Paleo.
You might look at Jamie Scott’s comments at the paleozonenutrition article you linked, where he fails to find proof for any of DR’s claims of being an elite endurance athlete. Those are falsifiable claims he’s making (the only race results Jamie could find are DNFs).
Based on his videos, I suspect the creationist tactic of “spew so much untruth that your opponent can’t possibly debunk it all” may happen. Don’t get sucked into perpetual rebuttal: just state “None of that is true. Here’s how that really works.”
Most importantly, look calm, confident, and happy, and don’t let him get under your skin. If incredible bullshit comes out, just laugh.
I don’t dislike the guy: I’m happy for him that he’s happy. Where I part ways is where he insists repeatedly that anyone with any health problems on that diet is simply “doing it wrong”. There’s a lot of evidence to the contrary, n >> 1, and he’s (and Graham) are making a lot of nice, well-meaning people terribly sick. I personally know people who are totally guilt-tripped by the insistence that they’re “doing it wrong”, and feel genuinely terrible that they feel like shit and their teeth rot on a diet people are “supposed to eat”. (Cue variances in ability to synthesize DHA from ALA and EPA, variances in PEMT choline-making enzyme, etc.)
blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/2010/12/meeting-choline-requirement-eggs-organs.html
JS
http://www.gnolls.org
+1
Recognize how close diet and religion (and politics, etc) are.
Julianne’s article is interesting, and is a great launching point for debate. Good luck Richard, not that you need it.
PS. Umm, how does Harley manage to eat over 18kg of food in one day? Let alone pay for (128kg) of food each week? The mind boggles……………
That’s over 40 pounds of bulk to digest everyday!
Probably gets the money from the foolish sheep he dupes into paying him for nutritional advice. Most of those sheep live off welfare anyway.
I’m aware of somebody that eats only raw food, and she buys mostly organic (recently paid $40 for a 5 pound box of organic tomatoes), but she is definitely not rich or working a “professional” job. If you give up superfluous things, you can afford a great deal more than you think.
So, by Harley’s example $40 for 5 pounds = $320 for 40 pounds – a day’s rations…….
I was not saying that raw organic food is not worth it’s price. It certainly gets a tick from me. Tho’ I am still flabbergasted by the sheer volume required each day, and curious as to how one would financially access said volume each week.
I’ve heard of more than was raw frutarian describe how after they eat they suffer from stomach distention. Considering the photo above of Durian, and given no knowledge of his eating habits (does he eat one banana at a time or group it into meals), I would have to say that there must be some very visible distention going on.
But then again, what do I know about eating raw?