Jack Kruse: Neurosurgeon. Leptin Reset and Cold Thermogenesis. Controversy

The Title I Really Wanted: “What Are We Going To Do With Jack Kruse?”

But that’s less Googlable.

So, take a guy who goes to school to be a tooth mechanic, ends up being a spine mechanic, and what do you get in the end? You get a personality, for sure. Take a 1 minute & change look at a surgical personality.

Does that offend you? If so, then why?

I’ve always loved that clip because it speaks deep human truth and is so damned offensive to Neolithic Moron…those who’ve been trained and domesticated, operating from the premise that the most virtuous act for lowly human to perform is to drop to their knees and suck God-cock. And that’s exactly what they’re all about, though always expressed in more flowery terms. It’s merely natural animal submission turned inward, imaginatively & delusionally perverse. And so I came back to that when considering the case of Dr. Jack Kruse, surgically carving his way into paleo Center Stage over some months, ruffling as many feathers as he smoothes. Maybe.

…Jack lost a lot of weight, something like 140 pounds in 11 months and he did it on paleo, with a “Leptin Reset,” and “Cold Thermogenesis.” He writes about all of this in super long, difficult to understand, rambling blog posts that some judge beneath the public decorum of a neurosurgeon. His latest is over 4,000 words and there are a number of posts much longer. Comments go into the many of hundreds.

What to make of it, and why am I taking this on?

I like Jack. I like the idea of Jack. I like how I sense what he’s about. I think he surely likes the love he gets, but he equally feeds on the hate & derision, just as well. Doesn’t care much. Self assured. Indifference is anesthesia…an overdose…the enemy. Love him or hate him, that’s his goal. I identify.

And it’s what we have. People seem to be a fan of Jack or itching for his downfall. I doubt many in the know don’t carry an opinion. That’s what I like about the man. How long must we swim the Sea of Mediocrity, always being careful never to offend—or worse: never saying much until we’re certain we’re 100% right, for fear of getting our collective peepee whacked?

The solid truth is that I have no clue as to whether or not Jack has his biochemistry and metabolic pathway ducks in a row, a file or a clusterfuck. Epigenetics? Easier to get along in the Greek backroads. But I do have a clue as to whether that really matters a lot or not. Counting since 2007, I was always unable to tell for sure whether the science behind anything I was looking at was sound or bogus. What I was able to do was ascertain whether shit made a little or more sense, and when it did, I tested it on myself. No, not in a rigorous, Seth Roberts way with charts & graphs…but more of a simple, how do I feel and do I appear to be making progress sort of way.

I’d venture that’s pretty much what everyone will be left with, anyway. So let’s take a look at Leptin Reset and Cold Thermogenesis, a-la Jack Kruse.


  1. First make sure you really are Leptin resistant (LR) to begin with. (Basically, you’re overweight a good amount)
  2. To regain Leptin Sensitivity (LS) follow a strict paleolithic diet as outlined in The Paleo Solution by Robb Wolf or The Primal Blueprint by Mark Sisson. (Lowish carb, paleo Foods. Eat a paleo meal soon after rising in the morning, including 50-75g protein)
  3. How you eat your fuel is MORE IMPORTANT than any other factor, including the food itself. (Never, ever snack. Give your liver a rest.)

So, basically, eat LC paleo, a protein loaded breakfast soon after waking, and never snack. I imagine there might be similar paths. In my own case, Intermittent fasting made the difference to where I can easily go 24 hours or more without eating, and never care much about it.


There’s no really good way to summarize that (see the link). It’s six rather involved steps, taking you from someone who absolutely must be warm & cozy at all times to shirtless in the Arctic, if you dare. Basically, the idea is to get yourself to adapt to cold over time using either cold air or immersion in very cold ice water for a time. Alternatively, you can pack yourself in ice.

Sounds crazy, right?

Let’s back up. Jack just gave his talk at TEDx the other day in Nashville. The video should be available soon but I was able to see it, though not live as some others did. He’s also been blogging, leading up to this. But only at TED did he spill the beans that on Jan 9th of this year, he injected himself with a staph infection and had a plastic surgeon colleague remove abdominal fat he’d spent a few months gaining in anticipation of the surgery (he had to create a valid cause for the surgery…because your business is everybody’s fucking business). He did general anesthesia, no local, and no post-op meds. Instead, he went home and settled into a tub of ice for some hours.

He claims he was screaming in pain prior to entry, but was pain free inside of minutes, has remained pain free, and the staff infection did not take hold. Of course, this wasn’t a one-off deal—he used cold thermogenesis (CT) as an exclusive alternative for his post operative recovery. He has since begun to use CT on patients who were inoperative, in order to rehabilitate them to a state where he could perform surgery (he tells one of those stories in his TED talk). I’m sure he’ll tell others in time.

Let’s back up to January 9th, the day of his surgery. By coincidence, Jack had been trying to reach me for a few days, and after obligatory phone tag, I settled down to a glass of whiskey on the evening of January 9th and rang him up, having no idea of what was in store. He answered, and something seemed way off…as though he’d been shot and was lying in a puddle of his own blood, bleeding to death. Nope, it was worse. He’d been in 40ish degree water for some hours (under supervision) at that point. He told me all about what he was up to, swore me to secrecy and that was that. I made sure he was under supervision and was eating during the experiment, because he was intending for a long haul in the icy water.

Since then I’ve been hearing a lot about Jack Kruse and I suppose owing to my circle, more negative than positive. That’s fine. I really like that The Paleo is characterized by lots of independent thinkers and skeptics. I think a lot have not known what to make of Jack. And of course, and it must be said, he has his share of blind followers who never question anything and that’s not good either. And the truth is I don’t really know exactly what to make of Jack. I’ve heard all from both sides, but have been unwilling in public to make any definitive judgment.

In the end you’re still on your own. Jack hasn’t hurt a soul, but through his surgical practice and blog has helped many and so, what? Hmm? His experiments are extreme, far more extreme than anyone would undertake who doesn’t see general anesthesia, infections, and scalpels cutting into live flesh on a daily basis. Yea, we’re shocked. But it was just a tweaked day at the office for Jack.

In the end, if Jack has something here, it could be big, and important. And if not, why worry about it? It’ll come out in the paleo wash over time.


I suppose that gives away my curiosity, doesn’t it? Truth is, from 2007 on when I began all of this, my gym—less than a 5 minute walk away—had a cold plunge they keep at around 40 deg (60 deg in the women’s locker room, discriminatorily). I used it from day one and in the phone conversation I had this morning with Jack to lightly interview him a bit before drafting this, I told him that I quickly learned to call it “The Reset Button.” He laughed. That’s what he calls it.

My routine was workout, sauna (if you are interested you can read more sauna benefits) for 10 minutes, steam room for a few, jacuzzi for a few, then into the ice water. Initially, 30 seconds was all I could bear, but I found myself totally rejuvenated. It got worse. Over time, I found I needed more time. I was becoming resistant to the addiction of ice cold water. Soon I was sitting in there for 3 minutes, then 5. By the time I moved away over a year ago, I was doing 12-15 minutes after every workout and I’d occasionally sneak away from home for a fix on the side, without my wife knowing.

Alright, the above is a bit tongue in cheek, but there’s a meaningful thread to it. That is, as unpleasant as it was, I could never not do it. And at times, even when I dreaded what I knew was going to happen, and I’d say to myself, “ok, but only for 3 minutes,” I’d end up breaking a time record.

It was all so curious. I’m still curious. This spanned several years of personal experience.

…Jack has more to tell you. I got a preview of what he means by Factor X. Deep evolution fans might be interested. It’s worthy of contemplation so far as I can tell.

Alright. Now it’s your turn, in comments. Love, hate or if you must, indifference. In the end, I figured it was time to put this to a rather neutral forum where anyone can basically say what they want. I will not defend Jack on the science because I am not qualified. Nor will I applaud science proffered as counter to Jack’s claims….because I’m not qualified there either. By the way, when I say I’m not qualified, it’s a rational/ethical judgment of myself and has nothing to do with licenses, certifications, degrees.

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  1. Dracil on April 3, 2012 at 15:16

    I’ve wondered if there’s something to the cold water thing. Aside from Jack, and your own experiments, Mark Sisson has also talked about cold water therapy before, which was actually the first time I’d heard of it, with the supposed idea that mildly stressing the body helps improve the immune system.

    • Erin on April 3, 2012 at 15:55

      This idea isn’t new at all- it’s been done in India, China, and northern European/Scandinavian countries for a long time.
      You can google Kniepp Therapy, cold hydrotherapy, Ishnaan, TCM cold baths or check out the section on cold showers over on http://www.earthclinic.com

      There is even a clinical study on cold showers as a treatment for depression:

      • Richard Nikoley on April 3, 2012 at 16:02

        Meh, cold showers are what I used to warm up after many minutes of immersion in 40 deg water.

        Not even close.

      • Erin on April 3, 2012 at 16:14

        LOL! Oh, Richard, not everyone has worked up to your Spartan tolerance 40º water. They have to start somewhere. I myself like mid 50’s baths with ice piled on. I’m getting really used to having a frozen midsection. It does wonders for the (vanishing) belly fat.

        Even warmer water than that still activates BAT and thermal exchange, so don’t throw the (relatively) warmer water out with the bathwater…

      • Elenor on April 4, 2012 at 06:12

        Wondering if there’s an aspect to this of swinging the research pendulum WAY too far, as there is to the (insane in my eyes) calorie restriction those walking cadavers engage in, when it seems likely that alternate-day fasting without the drastic extreme restriction, provides the same longevity benefits. Perhaps Jack is going so very far (or so it seems) and it will turn out that you needn’t freeze your butt off (although I’d like that to happen {wink}) to get the benefit of a cold-related biological challenge.

      • Patricia on May 11, 2012 at 17:28

        Didn’t lose an ounce on alternative day fasting or Intermittent fasting. Tried several different strategies. Nada, nothing, zip.

  2. Laurie D. on April 3, 2012 at 16:01

    Thank you for writing this. Sometimes I just sit and watch in dismay as the paleoistas jump all over any idea that is not their idea. I’ve been following the ramblings of Jack Kruse from the beginning with a bit of a scientist’s wait and see attitude. What I have found is that he rambles in print, yet is very articulate when interviewed. It’s almost as if there are two JKs out there. I have no idea whether what he says is correct or not, but the venom with which he has been attacked is certainly interesting to observe. Most of the attackers are young’uns so we can give them some latitude. When they hit 50, they’ll learn how to relax and realize that Jack is old enough to not give a damn what they thing anyway. As far as CT goes, the only thing that quiets a sore muscle or joint from lifting is cold. Works for me.

    • Melissa McEwen on April 3, 2012 at 16:21

      As I pointed out in my post, old academics don’t have the kind of time to address random bloggers like I do.

      I remember the vegans said the same thing about Denise Minger- she’s too young. If that’s your main argument to defend Dr. Kruse, it’s kind of sad.

      • Laurie D. on April 3, 2012 at 17:34

        Melissa, you have become increasingly bitter in your responses and posts on just about every topic, not just Jack Kruse. You missed my point. It is not that any of the naysayers are too young. It is just that you and others are getting all ramped up about this guy and for what? We all have brains and those that choose to use them will. You will do nothing to convince the others by continually attacking their savior. My point is we just all need to relax and see what happens. That, perhaps, is a perquisite of attaining an older age. Jack Kruse just doesn’t bother me much.

        As far as claiming to know how/what/why we evolved the way we have, c’mon. All good biologists know that we really have very little to go on there. Saying we have only evolved to the light patterns of the equator totally ignores the evolution of different pigmentations in skin, hair, and eyes as humans moved to different areas of the globe in response to, wait for it, different light patterns and strengths around the globe.

        I’m not trying to start a fight with you here. I’m just saying it doesn’t do us any good to keep starting these little infights. If Kruse’s experiments blow up, it will be as interesting to watch as if he is correct.

      • Kamal Patel on April 3, 2012 at 17:50

        A true laissez-faire attitude would not be “just relax and don’t argue”. It would be “do whatever you feel like”.

        And if people on the internet feel like arguing facts, opinions, typing errors, philosophy, or proper attire then so be it. If you take away people’s right to argue on the internet, what’s next? No porn?

      • Laurie D. on April 3, 2012 at 18:02

        Pretty sure I never said any of that. I didn’t say “don’t argue.” I just said it doesn’t do any good. I didn’t say don’t offer your opinions – did I not just offer mine? Did I offer to pass some legislation taking away the right of the people to argue on the internet? As far as typing errors go, instead of worrying about Kruse’s blog (which I stopped reading a while back due to its incomprehensibility), they ought to be paying attention to their own. Why does everyone in the paleo world spend all of their time nitpicking? Must be lack of carbs or something.

      • Kamal Patel on April 3, 2012 at 18:19

        Okay, sounds good. As long as you don’t take porn away.

      • Laurie D. on April 3, 2012 at 19:00

        Do whatever you feel like, Kamal. ;)

      • Kamal Patel on April 3, 2012 at 19:11

        Okay Laurie D., you saucy minx :)

      • Richard Nikoley on April 3, 2012 at 19:31

        No porn for you!

      • Kamal Patel on April 3, 2012 at 19:34

        To drum up some extra traffic for you, let me just say that Jack Kruse is not a credible source when it comes to boobs double insertion glutathione asian chicks penis pump.

      • Brenda on April 3, 2012 at 21:21

        seriously lol

      • Kamal Patel on April 3, 2012 at 21:40

        Dude, Brenda, did you get to this page by googling about glutathione penis pumps? Awesome.

      • Jules on April 4, 2012 at 05:15

        Lol Kamal! Where’s my “like” button?!

      • grace (Dr.BG) on April 4, 2012 at 20:41

        Howd ya know that was how I ended up to this page ‘asian chicks penis’???????! URA FRICKIN GENIUS *haa ahaaaa!!*

      • Lisa truitt on November 5, 2012 at 11:03

        Hope u don’t get porn induced ED. Apparently it is becoming an epidemic. You can google it. Many young men are unnaturally spiking their dopamine so high that normal sex with a woman can no longer provide the level of dopamine they are addicted to so normal sex no longer arouses them and they can’t get it up. Usually it takes months or years to reach this problem, and from what I have read on average it takes six months of no porn before dopamine normalizes and they can have sex again.

      • Melissa on April 3, 2012 at 20:45

        “As far as claiming to know how/what/why we evolved the way we have, c’mon. All good biologists know that we really have very little to go on there. Saying we have only evolved to the light patterns of the equator totally ignores the evolution of different pigmentations in skin, hair, and eyes as humans moved to different areas of the globe in response to, wait for it, different light patterns and strengths around the globe.”

        I agree. I’ve written so much about recent genetic adaptations, particularly to cold. I would consider it one of my main academic interests. But they are not re-activations of ancient pathways! They are derived, not ancestral. And they are not shared by all humans. Dr. Kruse says that anyone with any ancestral background can re-activated ancient mammalian polar pathways anywhere. No evidence for that at all.

      • Francis on April 4, 2012 at 00:06

        Um…no evidence that Miss Melissa has heard of.

        Patent filing for molecule that seems to be able to trigger hibernation in brain cells of a non-hibernating mammal, protecting them against stroke:


        Dunno, Melissa — really like your writing 99% of the time, but WRT Kruse you are just blind — seething — with envy. It’s a bit weird. Not as weird as injecting oneself with MRSA, but up there. :-)

        If it kills you so much that Kruse gets invited to give talks and you don’t, why not call the AHS folks and ask for a slot?

        I bet you’d be awesome.

      • Adam on April 4, 2012 at 03:27

        She did…and was rejected. Ratcheting up her attacks since – can’t stand anyone would invite him over her.

      • Jules on April 4, 2012 at 05:25

        She did one at AHS11- was great!

      • Melissa on April 4, 2012 at 06:47

        Ha, you guys realize that Kruse and I have had a huge argument for over a year now? I guess you don’t follow paleohacks.

        And triggering hibernation by injecting molecules derived from other animals that DO hibernate is a lot different than saying you trigger it with normal human behavior. But so far most of that experimentation has been a failure. I guess you wouldn’t know since it seems you just Googled humans + hibernation. A lot of links when you do that are actually describing possible torpor, not hibernation, which is different.

      • Evolutionarily on April 4, 2012 at 09:02

        Melissa is sooooo much more newsworthy than Mr Kruse. Just a lot less controversial! Every time I read huntgatherlove.com I get an amazing insight. Every time I read jackkruse.com I get a headache.

        Kurt Harris wrote in one of the comments of Richard’s previous posts: “In fact there is no paleo author, MD or PhD or otherwise, who knows as much as the brilliant Melissa McEwen has already forgotten. And she a “mere” student and amateur blogger…”

        I’ll probably live my whole life and not get a compliment that good :)

      • Evolutionarily on April 4, 2012 at 09:04

        Oops, for context Kurt’s sentence before that was: “It also shocks me how many “paleo” authors know nothing about actual paleoanthropology, thinking theoretical biochemistry is all you need to figure things out.”

      • Francis on April 4, 2012 at 08:27

        – Ha, you guys realize that Kruse and I have had a huge argument for over a year now? I guess you don’t follow paleohacks. –


        No, Melissa, your private tiffs are not particularly newsworthy. (In fact, I think the thing that really gets your goat is that you are not as newsworthy as you think you should be.)

        Anyway, either the “ancient pathways” are completely gone or they’re not. It seems that aspects of hibernation can still be triggered in non-hibernating mammals. I think that falsifies your “no evidence for that at all” statement, but more important, I think it’s fascinating that mammals — maybe humans included — may still have some metabolic functions of hibernation dormant within us.

        But who cares if that could make possible entirely new classes of drugs with incredible benefits but few side effects. What matters is winning arguments, right?

      • Richard Nikoley on April 4, 2012 at 09:28


        Thanks. Melissa is absolutely one of the very biggests assets to this whole deal. She’s real, always.

        While I know we’re at odds on this one, that doesn’t happen often, if ever. I hope she doesn’t hate me for it, or Emily, for that matter.

      • Melissa McEwen on April 4, 2012 at 12:19

        They are gone. You can reactivate them only by rebuilding them by injecting chemicals from other animals. Hypothetically. It’s never been done successfully. There would be a lot of money in it. It would be like re-activating our ability to raise young in pouches or have gills. There are some remnants there, but evolution generally eliminates what it doesn’t need, so in order to “reactivate” you’d have to do some serious engineering, borrowing from other animals that have conserved these traits.

        Thanks everyone for the compliments. :)

      • Francis on April 4, 2012 at 15:21

        Ah. In a few hours it’s gone from impossible to hypothetically possible.

        I guess that’s progress.

        In any event, it was done in rats a decade ago.

      • Kamal Patel on April 4, 2012 at 18:09

        u + ur dumb marmot r dumb. go back to reeding paperz.

      • Francis on April 4, 2012 at 20:59

        It’s all about about the clique.

      • Laurie D. on April 4, 2012 at 05:15

        Ah, but remember that we can only evolve with the genes we are handed down (except for a few fortunate mutations along the way). I spend a lot of time with my students emphasizing this fact. Most of them think we can grow long fingers if we type a lot. :P Evolution is survival of the fit enough, not perfection. Do we KNOW that we are not reactivating ancient genes with certain environmental pressures? I’m not sure anyone knows this one way or the other but it would certainly be interesting research.

        I also want to apologize for my comment earlier about bitterness. It was unnecessary and I have always read your blog with interest. I think that the Jack Kruse thing is very polarizing, though that is not necessarily a bad thing – keeps the juices flowing – but we shouldn’t take his ideas so personally. It will all come out in the wash.

      • C2U on April 3, 2012 at 23:14

        Don’t mind Melissa, she’s just an angry high-carber.

        Kruse might blow up if he accidentally sicks his dynamite up his ass during one of his delusional moments.

    • v on April 9, 2012 at 07:34

      laurie said “Most of the attackers are young’uns so we can give them some latitude. When they hit 50, they’ll learn how to relax and realize that Jack is old enough to not give a damn what they thing anyway…”

      true that

      • Evelyn aka CarbSane on April 9, 2012 at 13:58

        Too bad Jack didn’t realize turning 40 didn’t give him latitude to make shit up …

        Really, I’m around his age and age has nothing to do with the responses I’ve seen to this quackery.

  3. Skyler Tanner on April 3, 2012 at 15:00

    He eluded to cold as an X-factor, possibly in a blog that may or may not have had Tibetan ninjas. Regardless, if cold is a dormant longevity booster for all time, why do the longest lived populations (that can actually be verified) live in temperate areas? Shitload of confounds but we can’t raise people in cages all their life…not ethically anyway.

    And while he can be hard to understand, I get why he’s a bit of a fear monger: anyone he sees is already in the shits. You don’t end up being cut on because your insides are A-OK. I was on a panel with him and its what I said then: he’s a lifeguard, there to pull your head up when you drown but if you take our (meaning me, you, others) advice, we’ll teach you to swim so you never have to meet the lifeguard.

    That and he hates crossfit, so I’m on board with that.

    • Richard Nikoley on April 3, 2012 at 15:06


      My sense in talking with him is that CT is an epicenetic hack, not something for chronic use.

      • Andrew on April 3, 2012 at 19:48

        It’s interesting that people who read him and how people who talk to him get two different understandings of what he says.

      • Andrew on April 3, 2012 at 19:49

        ^ it’s also interesting how bad my sentence structure is. I meant to say it’s interesting that people who read him and people who talk to him get two different impressions of the protocol he advises.

      • Leigh on April 3, 2012 at 19:48

        He says that on his blog & forum.

      • Andrew on April 4, 2012 at 12:37

        he does not say it in any of the articles as far as I can tell/find.

  4. Tyler on April 3, 2012 at 15:01

    “operating from the premise that the most virtuous act for lowly human to perform is to drop to their knees and suck God-cock.”

    This is my new favorite quote of all time.

  5. Phillip Upton on April 3, 2012 at 15:05

    How the hell can you take sides when his writing is so incomprehensible? You have to be able to figure out what he is saying first!

    That man needs 1) an editor and 2) someone to do layout for his site.

    • Richard Nikoley on April 3, 2012 at 15:08

      Phillip, the only side I’m taking is no side with reservation for interest and curiosity.

      I don’t regularly read his blog for the reasons you cite. Yet, I was somehow able to gather enough info for this post.

      • Phillip Upton on April 3, 2012 at 15:31

        Just to be clear, ‘you’ was the generic… no *you* personally.

        I probably should have used ‘anyone’ instead.

        (yeah, I suck at writing myself… and have the balls to complain about someone else’s writing)

      • Francis on April 3, 2012 at 23:21

        “One” is the pronoun you’re looking for.

    • Dana on April 3, 2012 at 19:04

      Or people can just stop being lazy, take ten minutes out of their busy day that could have been better spent watching TV, slow the hell down and engage reading comprehension.

      You might still have a little trouble but Dr. Kruse’s main “problem” is he doesn’t speak in typical American Catchy Soundbite-ese. And good for him, I say.

      Bloggers don’t have editors. Get used to it.

      • KristiV on August 28, 2012 at 07:41

        Dana, Kruse is worth the effort; however, his writing is so poor that he often suggests just the opposite of the message that he intends.

    • Morningside Heights on April 4, 2012 at 19:39

      I totally agree. His blog is indecipherable but I have heard him speak on podcasts (w/jimmy moore) and was surprised that he can actually express himself articulately. He just can’t write. It’s mystifying.

  6. Trish on April 3, 2012 at 15:13

    First, I must be anal–it’s a staph infection, not a staff infection.

    That being typed, I haunt a low-carb board where there are a fair number of people who are going batshit over the Leptin Reset. Many are giddily claiming success. I suspect that has a great deal to do with the no-snacking rule. When one is not constantly cramming LC treats down one’s gullet, one tends to lose weight. As for the CT, I’m no doctor but I know there’s certain surgeries where the body temperature needs to be lowered in order for success (some cardiac procedures, I believe) and I remember your polar plunges, so there might be some method to the madness. I don’t mind cold–living in the south as I do where there’s only a few days of real cold I frequently go jacketless–but damn, I’d have to clean Wawa out of ice to do the bathtub experiment.

    In short, if it helps, just another way of doing it.

    • Leigh on April 3, 2012 at 18:13

      I ate primal for 1.5 years before doing the LR, and ate WPF/TF style for several years prior to that. I tried and tried to stop snacking, but couldn’t.

      First day on the LR, I stopped. The huge protein breakfast was the trick. After a few months, my ED stopped. So yeah, those two things contributed to my weight loss (although the pace was the same dismally slow before and after the LR), but both were effects of the breakfast, and not direct causes.

      More than weight loss, though, is the effect that the end of constant snacking & ED had on my overall health.

    • Dana on April 3, 2012 at 19:06

      “When one is not constantly cramming LC treats down one’s gullet, one tends to lose weight.”

      Yeah, sure, if you’re another one who fell for the mainstream “calories in/calories out” thing. Which even the mainstream does not fully understand. (Hint: Turning amino acids into muscles is “calories out.” Burning stored fat is “calories in.” Who’s counting any of that? No one, not even in BMR.)

      Probably if you asked him, Kruse would tell you the no snacking works because even if you just eat protein and fat, protein elevates insulin, which is going to slow down fat loss. This is explainable in a metabolic sense, no need to cast aspersions on people’s eating habits. Some of us are a little beyond tired of Bash The Fattie.

      • Nigel Kinbrum on April 3, 2012 at 23:44

        Having read your “Hint”s, I see why you don’t believe in the Energy Balance Equation.
        You’ve got it all wrong. See The Energy Balance Equation.

        Calories count, Dana. There’s just no point in people consciously counting them.
        Low-carb diets work by making people subconsciously (the word “unconsciously” doesn’t really work well here) eat less & move more. There has to be a caloric deficit for weight to be lost. If weight is lost sensibly, it’s virtually all body-fat weight that’s lost.

        The term “Eat less & move more” is not a moral judgement.
        It’s also not all about insulin.

        The sooner you understand this, the better.

      • Leigh on April 4, 2012 at 06:02

        You are correct about the only way to success being making people (consciously or no) *desire* to eat less and move more.

        You are incorrect, though, *if* you believe that telling someone to eat less and move more is useful, or not a moral judgement.

        I was primal for two years and still could not stop the snacking, the craving, or the bingeing. One day – ONE DAY – on the LR and the urges were gone.

      • lee on April 4, 2012 at 08:13

        I agree, I wasn’t a “fattie” and I counted calories to a fault. It took dumping grain and adding fat to lose weight. My tg were brutal and I have a BMI of 18. The leptin reset has been my only hope. It was as Leigh said, undisciplined has nothing to do with it. We needed science.

      • Beth@WeightMaven on April 4, 2012 at 10:35

        The issue for some of the critics (including people who know the science far better than you or I) is less does the LRx work for folks and more does it work for the reason Dr. Kruse says?

        That matters, just as it does for LCing (or any other approach) in general. Most folks don’t dispute that reducing carbs helps many people to lose weight, they dispute that the mechanism is as Taubes describes.

      • Leigh on April 4, 2012 at 13:40

        I had already reduced carbs. I had been primal and doing seasonal carbs for two years. The LR was the key, and the BAB was the magic. Before that, I couldn’t stop snacking. Starting the first day, I could. Easy. Haven’t snacked in the 10 months since that day.

        I agree with you, and with Kruse, that insulin is not the magic star player. There is more to it.

      • Nigel Kinbrum on April 6, 2012 at 08:16

        Having just stated that there’s no point in consciously counting calories, why would I tell somebody to (consciously) eat less and move more? I wouldn’t and I don’t. Eat less, move more has to be subconscious for it to work. Low-carb diets seem to be quite good at achieving this.

        What exactly do you mean by “primal”? Everybody has a different idea as to what that is.

        And what exactly did you do to reset your leptin? Just curious.

      • Leigh on April 6, 2012 at 08:36

        Nigel, I think we’re in agreement. I used the word “if” because I thought so after reading your reply above. I just wanted to clarify. The phrase “Eat less & move more,” as written, is a command, and as such, is a moral judgment – but neither of us would use it as a command, it seems, and both would agree that a “diet” that works is one which creates biological urges to eat less and move more, instead of simply exhorting the person.

        When I say “primal,” I mean a diet very similar to what Mark Sisson espouses. I tried varying levels of carbs, but ate only grassfed/organic/wild meat & produce & fat & fish, with plenty of broth & offal & ferments. The cravings I had decreased each time I made a positive change in my diet, but I could not get them to shut up, and could not stop bingeing or snacking, until my first day on the LR.

        At that time, of course, my leptin was *not* reset. I don’t know if it is now or not. But the change I made that day was to increase my breakfast protein from an already admirable 25g of grassfed meat & pastured eggs, to 50g.

        (Actually, the snacking went away the first day, iirc, it wasn’t till the second day that the cravings went away.)

        It wasn’t the efforts to avoid eating between meals, or to stop snacking at night, that made the calories reduce. It was the “BAB” that made all those things happen. And yes, it shut off the biological urges to eat all day. Like that. After all those years of trying to shut them off with overall fat, protein, and willpower.

        Simply going low-carb, and simply going primal, and even doing them both together, did not work for me.

      • Nigel Kinbrum on April 6, 2012 at 21:47

        Thanks for replying. I nearly didn’t see your reply in this ocean of replies!

        I will increase the size of my breakfast (not quite to the size of my ass/arse) and see what happens.

        This is why I find the subject of Diet & Nutrition so fascinating. There’s always something new to surprise me.

      • Trish on April 8, 2012 at 18:08

        It’s got nothing to do with calories. It has everything to do with people trying to eat the same way they did before but without the consequences. The people on the board I frequent aren’t eating meats and vegetables and eggs and fat. They’re eating pizza on a crust made from a pound of processed cheese and Oscar Meyer hot dogs and sugar-free chocolate cheesecake cups and Atkins bars and washing it down with diet wild cherry Pepsi. They’re eating crap–it just happens to be low-carb crap. If they get rid of the crap, they lose weight. This plan forces one to get rid of the crap. I was a LC crap devotee myself during the Glory Days circa 2004, and I’m still paying for it.

      • Leigh on April 8, 2012 at 19:19

        Trish, I was eating an entirely unprocessed Weston Price diet before joining MDA & going primal. I have found that I have not been able to eat any grains at all if I want to lose weight, certainly nothing with honey, and cannot even eat “sweets” such as pecans, homemade 24-hr yogurt from raw Jersey milk, sweet potatoes, or coconut milk if I want to keep losing, and most importantly for my health, keep bingeing away. (I once accidentally kick-started a 10 week bingeing spree just by eating butternut squash (unsweetened).)

        I know not everyone is like me, with a broken craving mechanism, but many are. For us, it absolutely not one thing to do with getting rid of processed food, because we did it years ago, and still didn’t lose the weight.

      • Patricia on May 11, 2012 at 17:23

        I’m late to this party. So glad to read someone saying they did it all and didn’t loose weight. “Nothing to do with getting rid of processed food, because we did it years ago.” Right on, Leigh. I’m just starting this leptin/cold thermogenesis journey. I’m gonna assume I can’t do any of those food too- at least for right now. Working on getting my body temp up, adrenals calmed down etc.

        I’m wondering how effective this CT thing will be summer in Las Vegas. I’ve got the AC down to 63 degrees but I have to go out sometime.

        Nice to read comments from thinkers. Congratulations- thinking is the hardest part.

  7. Jake S. on April 3, 2012 at 15:14

    I’m cool with cold adaptation…but CT? Um, hells no. Not extreme enough for that. I do cold showers/scottish showers, and the occasional ice bath for recovery, but that’s about it.

    As a crossfitter, I have issues with the “eat no carbs” thing that I’ve heard him talk about, but I can understand how that would work for a lot of people.

    Personally, it’s all n=1. For me, I’ve found that low food reward and and the addition of starches in my diet work better than the leptin protocol. Yeah, I tried it. Then went to the Whole30 and crossfit and haven’t looked back.

    I see the value that his thoughts and ideas have, but I still wonder if someone is going to meet an untimely end because of the CT protocol.

    I’m wondering where this is going to go. We’re either going to see some wild success stories or some abject if not dangerous failures.

    I almost see paleo as reaching for this sort of mythical longevity goal, and I wonder if I’m in the same camp. Sure, living long is cool, but I’m not pursuing longevity as this be all end all goal. I’m more interested in being fast, strong, and actually living without alzheimers or diabetes or any number of stupid diseases.

    • Aeris on April 3, 2012 at 17:30


      I agree with pretty much everything you’ve said. I have trouble understanding your first paragraph though. As a crossfitter, I’m sure you push your body’s limits on a regular basis in terms of strength, speed and endurance. Why does CT sound so “extreme” to you then? You already said you can do cold showers and sometimes an ice bath. To me, it’s like saying “I can do 2-3 push-ups and a 100 lb deadlift, but any more than that is extreme!”

      Don’t want to push any buttons or anything, just trying to understand :)

      • Jake S. on April 3, 2012 at 19:22


        I can see the benefits of cold (in the form of ice bath, cold shower, etc) recovery technique. I know that Mark’s Daily Apple has talked about cold adaptation, and Whole9 about the benefits of ice baths.

        I don’t really see the point of moving past 5-30 minute ice bath and reaching times of 1-4 hours in ice. I really don’t. I can see the benefit in extreme situations, but I (as a rational human being), believe that moving to that point is…well…stupid.

        I really have problems following the advice of someone who is willing to go back onto the SAD diet, have elective plastic surgery (which he didn’t need before the SAD diet), and then proceed to inject himself with MRSA, all to prove a theory. It’s great if it works, but I’m not that…I believe the word is “extreme”.

        That’s what makes me step back and go “is it worth it”. Are scottish or cold showers or occasional ice baths “worth it”? Sure.

        Is following the advice of Dr. Kruse without any follow-up evidence “worth it”? I’m not sure. I’m skeptical until I see some more evidence.

        If the leptin perscription had worked better, perhaps I wouldn’t be so adverse to trying it, but I’ve already found something that is working (i.e. moderate carb paleo/crossfit), so I’m not not as tempted as usual to try something new.

        I may try it in 6-12 months after more research and thought about the protocol has come out…but at this point, I don’t see a good reason to move beyond where I’m at.

      • Whitney on April 4, 2012 at 07:58

        I like this!!

      • Jonathan on April 4, 2012 at 08:15

        He didn’t say he injected Methicillin-resistant Staph. I think it would be dumb to inject Staph on purpose but wildly insane to inject MRSA.

      • Jake S. on April 4, 2012 at 10:15

        According to this, and the TED talk, he did.

    • Lisa truitt on November 5, 2012 at 08:40

      Have you read the recent post on his site about the athlete how has worked with who had elevated C reactive protein caused by crossfit and how multiple people such as this are actually showing that they were healthier based on their test results when they were heavier and not excercising than when they were doing crossfit and looking like Adonis? When you train hard and push your body like that you are not lowering your disease risk you are increasing it. From what I understand so far, limited controlled exposure to cold lowers inflammation and crp scores. I think that too much of anything can harm you, but it makes sense to me that limited use of cold could have some really beneficial affects. Some of the hardcore paleo cross fitters are dropping dead of heart attacks.

  8. jd on April 3, 2012 at 15:36


    I, like you, don’t know what to make of Dr. Kruse’s experimentation, and I can’t follow his writing or his science. However, I do think what he is doing is amazing, in that he is pushing the boundaries of the conversation beyond whether or not potatoes are Paleo, which seems to be where everyone has been hung up for the last half of a year.

    Thanks for all that you do.

    • Francis on April 3, 2012 at 23:25


      So true.

      For that alone he deserves our thanks.

  9. Shayne on April 3, 2012 at 15:37

    I tried Jack’s Leptin Reset and I have to say it was an abysmal failure for me (and I’m definitely overweight by a good bit).

    I lost no weight during the four weeks, but because he says not to work out during the time you’re doing it, I lost all the progress I had made up to the point when I started it. Now I have to start over again.

    I’m not a fan, but I don’t hate the man, either. I guess I’m in the “indifference” camp. I tried it and it didn’t work for me. Oh well. On to the next thing.

    • Mike on April 3, 2012 at 17:10

      You should have just thought about changing your DNA and it would have worked for you

    • Jonathan on April 4, 2012 at 08:23

      I’m no expert but I would think if you lose progress from simply not working out for 4 short weeks, you’re doing something else way wrong

    • Paul C on April 5, 2012 at 07:19

      Sounds like Shayne is talking about just the calorie burn from working out, not strength, endurance or central nervous system training, which don’t evaporate in 4 weeks. And maybe mental progress loss too. I know I have a gut feeling like I am losing ground taking 2 weeks off, even when I know intellectually that the recovery period is when the gains are happening.

  10. VW on April 3, 2012 at 15:45

    He’s an attention whore and a plagiarist, but whatever.

    • Richard Nikoley on April 3, 2012 at 15:52

      I love the irony of posting that someone is an attention whore in comments on a popular blog where less than 1 in 100 readers are commenters.

      But whatever.

      • VW on April 3, 2012 at 15:58

        You do realize that “VW” is not my real name, don’t you? If you realize this, then you might also take note of the fact that I don’t lay claim to the initials V and W and I’m not actively trying to build a “VW” brand.

        It’s a tad different, in my opinion, Richard. You’re quite a bright guy, so I expect you might simply be winding me up a bit.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 3, 2012 at 16:04

        I realize all of that.

    • Dana on April 3, 2012 at 19:08

      If you’re not willing to back up the latter claim with evidence, it’s worthless.

      As for the former claim, any human being the least bit psychologically healthy wants attention. Maybe not 24 hours a day, but even Jack Kruse sleeps.

      • M. on April 4, 2012 at 13:12

        Various plagiarism claims –

      • VW on April 4, 2012 at 15:08

        Dana, he has been busted and called out with irrefutable evidence on several occasions. If you care enough to investigate, you’ll find literally over a dozen examples of the guy flat out plagiarizing, and I’m lowballing that estimate. I don’t care to do the legwork for you in order to convince you. Believe what you will. It’s relatively easy to find several instances of the guy doing it.

      • Chloe on April 4, 2012 at 17:56

        Dana, if you want some quick and easy evidence of Quilt’s plagiarism, check out that Paleohacks thread (thanks, M., for posting it!). You can also try Googling those inspirational quotes that he posts on Facebook everyday. Nearly all of them are plagiarized. Sure, the fact that he plagiarizes inspirational quotes may not be a damning indictment of his theories. But it sure speaks to his integrity (and to his confidence that he can pull one over on his acolytes). Some recent examples (none were posted with credit to the real authors, even when his fans praised him for the profundity of “his” thoughts).

        “There is an ultimate truth, but the doctrine we desire, absolute, perfect dogma that alone provides wisdom, does not exist.” (posted on 4/1/12, actually by Hermann Hesse)
        “Creativity is not the finding of a thing, but the making something out of it after it is found.” -(posted on 3/31/12, actually by James Russell Lowell
        “Anyone can look for fashion in a boutique or history in a museum . . .” (posted on 3/31/12, Jack actually altered the end of this quote, but the beginning is copied verbatim from Robert Wieder)
        “We cannot lead anyone farther than we have been ourselves.” (posted on 3/30/12, originally by Gene Mauch)
        “The state of your life is nothing more than a reflection of your state of mind….” (posted on 3/13/12 originally by Wayne Dyer)
        “A clock is a little machine that shuts us out from the wonderment of our own time we are given” (posted on 3/12/12, originally from a play by Susan Glaspell)

      • Chauncey Gardner on April 4, 2012 at 18:06

        This is entire scenario is straight out of the movies.

        A serial plagiarizing narcissist injects himself with MRSA to help his strange, meteoric rise to fame. In the world of paleo, no less, where people are supposed to be clever and question things. He copies his ideas from other authors and rarely mentions them, and then he copies his “inspirational” quotes from an incredible array of plays, books, and random websites. And then Richard writes a post saying absolutely nothing in order to drum up comments.

        How about some actual content? This guy’s 15 minutes are up, right?

      • Poisonguy on April 5, 2012 at 23:53

        You might want to familiarize yourself with fair use laws.

      • Chloe on April 6, 2012 at 03:43

        Poisonguy, fair use laws make plagiarism a-okay? That’s not my reading of the rules, but please, enlighten us.

      • Poisonguy on April 6, 2012 at 09:59

        Enlighten yourself. Plug “fair use” in google and go from there.

      • Chloe on April 6, 2012 at 10:35

        See above where I actually mention reading about fair use, Poisonguy. In case it wasn’t clear, I have read about fair use and was still unable to determine if you have a point.

      • Poisonguy on April 6, 2012 at 11:36

        Chloe, you can lead a horse to water,…(Nitwit et al 1856).

      • Chloe on April 6, 2012 at 11:42

        Poisonguy, are you sure you aren’t Jack Kruse in disguise? Copying something verbatim is NOT protected by fair use laws. So I certainly hope that’s not what you were trying to argue. And who goes around defending plagiarism anyway?

      • Paul Verizzo on April 8, 2012 at 07:24

        It absolutely is, Chloe! The AMOUNT copied is always the point of contention, legally. You can quote, “Frankly, my dear, I don’t give a damn!”, but not the entirety of Gone With the Wind.

        Courts have generally even allowed copying a number of pages of a book for classroom use.

        The legal part where he fails is to not give credit. Fair Use law requires that.

      • Chloe on April 8, 2012 at 08:52

        Thanks for the clarification, Paul! Well, if we added up all the examples of Jack’s plagiarism, I think we’d have a book’s length. :-) You sound like quite an expert on this, so maybe Jack would listen to you if you told him about the importance of crediting his sources. He’s certainly gotten feedback about his plagiarism before from irritated Paleohackers, but he hasn’t changed his ways.

      • M. on April 8, 2012 at 15:12

        Poisonguy, “fair use” has little to do with plagiarism. Jack is not being accused of copyright infringement; he is being accused of plagiarism. Go check your Nitwit et al reference. Fair use does not allow you to pass off somebody else’s writing as your own. Plagiarism still applies even if the copyright has expired.

      • Jscott on April 8, 2012 at 18:02

        Your snark makes me happy.

      • VW on April 5, 2012 at 10:06

        “Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in.”

        – Me

        What I find more disturbing than even the stuff you guys have posted is back when he was posting as “Dr. K” on Paleohacks, he would often give answers in the form of anecdotes from his practice, stating things like, “I had a patient who presented the same problem and……” Then you’d google what he had posted and see that it was an EXACT rip-off from something some doctor had posted elsewhere on the internets. You’d often find links to the quotes/answers he was stealing elsewhere in the same thread, posted by someone else who had googled it.

      • The Lazy Caveman on May 8, 2012 at 16:24

        What bugs me about Dr. K’s Leptin Reset is that he largely stole from Byron Richards’ great work “Mastering Leptin” without attribution. Real scientists always attribute their work.

  11. Erin on April 3, 2012 at 15:48

    I have to say that I’m loving CT (and I’m a wimpy girl;) I’m getting boatloads of benefits from it, so I’m in for life.
    I do want to clarify- regarding carbs, Jack is only against carbs during cold temps and low light cycles (like in winter). He eats them in spring and summer. It’s all about mammalian metabolism being tied directly to seasonal temp and light cycles. This makes sense to me…
    He’s only against Crossfit if it’s excessive and used in warm-adapted humans. Cold adaptation does do wonders for workouts and muscle development:)

    • Melissa McEwen on April 3, 2012 at 15:53

      How does that make sense to you? Primates evolved close to the equator where seasonal light cycles are minimal.

      • Erin on April 3, 2012 at 15:57

        We’re controlled by the light cycles where we live and I don’t live near the equator. I’m not arguing the evolutionary aspect- I’m staying out of that. I’m talking about what is for any given mammal in it’s current environment.

      • Melissa McEwen on April 3, 2012 at 16:17

        Primates did not evolve to base biological seasonality on light cycles. Seasonality in primates is primarily governed by food scarcity, not light cycles. There is no “no carb” season in our biology to switch on. The hilarious thing is that the low light seasons in tropical forests are when sugary fruit is often most plentiful!

      • Justin on April 3, 2012 at 16:58

        So we stopped evolving when we moved away from the equator?

      • Anondson on April 3, 2012 at 17:07

        Neanderthals and denisovans sure were evolutionary dead ends now that you mention it. ;) Maybe they just stopped evolving!

      • Melissa on April 3, 2012 at 20:36

        No, we did not. SOME groups of humans have adaptations to cold and low light. Not all. They are derived and relatively recent adaptations, not reactivations of “ancient pathways.”

      • mark on April 4, 2012 at 05:01

        Come on now… many animals adapt to light and temperature changes in many ways. What’s makes us so “special”?

      • Jscott on April 4, 2012 at 18:38

        Because we know that we know? (It was hard to resist. So, I did not.)

      • jesse on April 3, 2012 at 17:35

        Hi Melissa,

        Good comment. Experientially I disagree with you quite a bit. However I have heard of the sugar sensor for seasonality. I just don’t believe that it means there is nothing to the light exposure angle. Also, you are being short sighted by stopping at primates if you want to tackle Dr. Kruse on this because he’s going way back. I am interested to read his book and see how he builds the case, however our endocrine system isn’t changed much from pre-primate mammals has it? We still have light sensors in our body, in our eye and in our red blood cells, we still have ultradian clocks in our cells, what are they all for? My experience has been that controlling light exposure controls sugar cravings, not vice versa (i haven’t tried vice versa if there even is such a thing).

        Anyway, I’m glad you brought up the carb sensor, something that Dr. Kruse actually explains quite a bit about if you read his blog on cold thermogenesis.

        I like what Dr. Kruse is doing because it’s informative and a logical extension to the seasonal habits I had already adopted regarding food availability and light exposure. Now there is cold exposure too. How could that not make sense? How many ice ages have mammals had to survive on earth to get where we are today?

        However, I don’t believe, right now, that it is a panacea. I think a lot of people reaping major benefits are those that are losing a lot of weight, and fixing their light exposure while simultaneously being more rigorous on their keto diet. All those things made me feel awesome last year and the addition of CT has only slightly bumped it up. I have had no performance gains. Like Richard (thx for the blog) I am mildly addicted to it and psych myself up in the same way… the mind over matter part is maybe what’s driving me.

        I can’t afford to do the labs, maybe next year when I repeat my wintry cycle…

        Take care,

      • Melissa on April 3, 2012 at 20:41

        Are you talking about Neuropeptide Y? Because Dr. Kruse claims that it’s downregulated in the winter, when in reality, if you expose mammals to cold, it’s upregulated.

        Light does matter in humans of course! We are adapted to day/night light signals and this is very important. Robb Wolf and TS Wiley have written extensively about this.

      • eva on April 4, 2012 at 00:59

        Melissa, are you saying that cold does not activate SCN, and that cold-activated SCN doesnt go on to upregulate POMC that downregulates NPY. And doesnt leptin (upregulated by cold and dark via SCN) bind to NPY neurons thus decreasing their activity?

      • Melissa McEwen on April 4, 2012 at 12:47

        Whether or not temperature can activate the SCN is a pretty heavy debate, but almost all the experiments involve in vitro slices of genetically engineered rodent brains, so I’m not ready to base my diet or lifestyle on it yet

      • grace (Dr.BG) on April 4, 2012 at 20:38

        Personally I’m not pleased with the plagiarism but biochemistry explains the merits of the LR and CT well.

        AMPK and PPAR delta are the ‘carb sensors’ –they is also turned on by BAT for thermogenesis, intermittent fasting, ketosis and endurance exercise.

        Biochem actually explains the benefits of CT and LR pretty well if one reads pubmed… Both are intimately tied to autophagy and body fat regulation…

        CT helps immunity (granted one is NOT IN SEVERE ADRENAL FATIGUE and compromised adrenaline/cortisol fluxes!!!!):
        [Repeated cold water stimulations (hydrotherapy according to Kneipp) in patients with COPD].Forsch Komplementmed. 2007 Jun;14(3):158-66.

      • Skyler Tanner on April 3, 2012 at 17:39

        “…low light seasons in tropical forests are when sugary fruit is often most plentiful!”
        This. The notion that fruit is inherently the problem/signaler above total carbohydrate load is ludicrous.

        I can buy into the notion that total carb load is lower in winter; if you’re eating seasonally and locally it will be by default. However I am unaware of any magical property that fruit possesses that would signal a mismatch; it’s all down to monosaccharides in the small intestine anyway.

      • jesse on April 3, 2012 at 18:00

        What about the sweet sensor that Dr. K. and Melissa posted about above. Does it not exist. If you just throw out that you are unaware of something nobody gives a sh*t. Disprove it? Usually I start by trying to disprove stuff and that’s what I did after I read Lights Out. I DIDN’T want to believe it. Because, hey, it sucks, the idea that i would have to live my life differently and miss out on nocturnal activities to have perfect health. I haven’t disproven it, not experientially and not with 4-6 months of reading studies on melatonin, light exposure, etc…. and seeing the realities of diseases of civilization and not believing that they have a single one cause as many do. It’s a big picture, look around it.

      • Skyler Tanner on April 3, 2012 at 18:47

        Again, the longest-lived cultures are in temperate areas of the world. Multiple confounds but they’re eating fruit year around. Chances are a little Costa Rican woman is going to live longer than anyone commenting in spite eating in a way that is apparently a mismatch.

        Once you get the big moving parts in order, any additional intervention is giving you a smaller return on investment. Dose dependance applies to everyone and everything, including CT.

      • Leigh on April 4, 2012 at 05:53

        Every Costa Rican I’ve ever met … in Costa Rica, not transplants, and not US expatriots … eats SAD + papayas. I don’t think longevity is gonna hit ’em any time soon.

        Not an argument against what you said, just a sad commentary.

      • Skyler Tanner on April 4, 2012 at 11:24

        I was referring to Nicoya where one of the Blue Zones is; I realize I was being general but that’s what I meant.

      • jesse on April 4, 2012 at 16:29

        But what is your point Skyler. It sounds like your point is, and I’m putting it through a Dr. Kruse filter here to keep discussion going, that of all the warm adapted humans on the planet, the ones in blue zones are eating fruits year round. Well… so are the rest of them. I guess I’m missing your big point against cold adapting or Dr. Kruse (i.e. the topic of the blog). If cold adapting exists then it’s pointless to raise the lifespans of warm adapted humans vs. other warm adapted humans. You also agree that you would be eating lower carbs in winter no matter where you lived if you at “locally”. How long you think we’ve been able to eat other than locally for 95% of our food? 80 years? 100?

        I guess for me to find substance in your post you would have to:

        a) provide a mechanism for carb counting in the body that deactivates cold adapted metabolism (i.e. down regulate BAT and entrain the circadian rhythms to light)

        b) explain what your big moving pieces are and which one of them contradicts what Dr. Kruse is expounding on or which of them show that if he’s right about CT it’s small potatoes and not worth discussing.

        “Dose dependance applies to everyone and everything, including CT.”

        No contest. Do you have any guesses at what that dose is? I myself favor intermittence. However, for making a metabolic change I might favor immersion or cold turkey (depending on the change you are looking for) for a period to force adaptation, followed by intermittence to maintain adaptation.

        Much respect to your opinion so I hope this doesn’t come across as argumentative. I want to hear it. You write like you know what you are talking about but obviously i don’t know you or your background so please enlighten.


      • Richard Nikoley on April 3, 2012 at 15:57


        Wait for his Factor X and yes, putting out stuff piecemeal is irritating. He does have an interesting epicenetic argument, on the surface for me. Of course, I’m unqualified. It’s interesting, though. Probably nothing anyone expects.

        Not sold by any means, but I have some lines to research.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 3, 2012 at 15:58

        Epigenetic argument

      • Kamal Patel on April 3, 2012 at 16:23

        Cobble together TS Wiley’s “Lights Out: Sleep, Sugar, and Survival” with Byron Richards’ “Mastering Leptin” and a couple other pieces, and you get the Paleo Rx and CT. Fine, nothing wrong with borrowing ideas. It’s tough to argue against Kruse because the claims are sooooooo broad. It makes me think of the “Jumping to Conclusions Mat” from Office Space. The sherpa/Phelps analysis is wrong in about a dozen different ways. Even the analogy behind CT having the same mechanism as Zeltiq (ice liposuction) is way off. It just takes some pubmed time to get to that point, which nobody feels like doing unless they have oodles of free time or access to resesarchers at Mass General Hospital (which I incidentally do up here in Boston!).

        Every time I see a reference from Kruse about how this is like Einstein’s miraculous year, I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. And when I talk to a biologist, surgeon, or anyone with the knowledge to pick apart the arguments, they are too amused and busy to get on the web and reply. I find Kruse highly entertaining, and it’s good to a small degree that he is “shaking things up” and getting some more people to paleo. But this MRSA stunt? Practicing medicine over the web indiscriminantly? Maybe not so good.

        There are countless reports of both good results and bad results. I suspect some of the good results are from simply limiting snacks and carb binging, and concentrating on health, not from actual leptin resetting. And cold thermogenesis does burn about 200 kcals per hour, from what little pubmedding I’ve done. I just hope the following kinds of comments don’t pop up too often– FIRST, DO NO HARM!
        Dr. Kruse and all,

        Just did my first labs since last fall, when I eliminated carbs (I was already low carb) and went “great white shark” for the winter.

        The results are alarming. I am now severely hypothyroid (high TSH, normal fT4, low fT3), my LDL is through the roof, and my fasting glucose has gone from a healthy level to pre-diabetic. In other words, exactly what the safe starch crowd says will happen.

        What can I do? If the answer is CT, well…I have been doing CT religiously for over a month, and my pilot light has yet to turn on. When I get out of the cold tub, I stay cold. If I do it after dinner, I freeze through the night and sleep poorly. Overall, I am cold and miserable — exactly what conventional wisdom would expect from a hypothyroid person who exposes himself to cold and shuns heat!

        I want to prove the safe starch crowd and CT naysayers wrong, but so far my n=1 is not encouraging.

        What can I do?

      • Phillip Upton on April 3, 2012 at 16:34

        Part of what I got from reading Lights Out was the seasonality.

        I’d say that since winter is over, start eating like it. And start moving around more.

        That means fruit and vegies.

        (I did two months of ketogenic dieting this winter myself. And now, I’m eating fruit, vegies and potatoes. Seems to be working for this n=1.)

      • Mike on April 3, 2012 at 16:42

        I only eat fruits during the summer solstice

      • jesse on April 3, 2012 at 17:40

        Good work Phillip. I concur completely. If CT works exactly as Dr. K. says it does then we should be able to use it to good effect during the winter. If we think we need more telomere lengthening (again, assuming it’s accurate) then we could extend winter a couple weeks in each direction :)

        I also got this from Lights Out, and it seems to be missing from all the Paleo books I’ve read…..

      • jesse on April 3, 2012 at 17:41

        do you only troll when you think you’re funny?

      • MM on April 10, 2012 at 17:21

        Kamal, I am the one that you quote above, and I am afraid that you have transplanted my comment in a way that somewhat distorts its meaning.

        Kruse has done me no harm. My going ultra-low-carb had nothing to do with him. My blood sugar had mysteriously gone haywire, and eliminating carbohydrate was the only thing I could do to stabilize it.

        I took this maneuver fully aware that low-carb diets were controversial with regard to the thyroid. And while it did not (and does not) make sense to me that healthy thyroid function should REQUIRE a certain level of carbohydrate, this was entirely beside the point. I felt that my body had backed me into a corner and that I had no choice.

        Hypothyroidism in fact developed. Unable to increase carbohydrate since I still could not tolerate it, I searched for other paths forward and discovered Kruse’s claims for cold therapy. After researching the field further and deciding that I had more to gain than lose provided that I moved cautiously, I commenced to experiment in careful stages (as Kruse, it must be acknowledged, takes pain to advise).

        I have not been harmed by cold therapy, but so far it has done me no good — which admittedly has been a disappointment. I am at a loss what to do next, but I am not upset with Kruse.

      • Chloe on April 11, 2012 at 05:32

        Hi MM. I can’t speak for Kamal, but I don’t believe he was saying that you don’t like Dr. Kruse or personally blame him for your poor results. I do think it’s important to note, though, that Kruse rarely (if ever?) acknowledges that CT fails anybody. He only promotes the success stories (and he continues to promote it, seemingly without reservation, for hypothyroidism). And when you posted the above comment on Dr. Kruse’s blog, what did he recommend? More CT, obviously! (Or, he says, you could try Perfect Health Diet, which he routinely trashes.) At this point, he seems far more interested in becoming some sort of lifestyle guru than in determining whether the interventions he recommends are safe and effective.

      • MM on April 11, 2012 at 08:31

        Chloe, all of this is a separate subject from what prompted my reply to Kamal.

        Kamal quoted my words to illustrate that Kruse had violated his duty to “do no harm.”

        Kruse did not — by any stretch — harm me.

        Were I Kruse’s mortal enemy I would still feel compelled to correct this serious error of fact.

      • Chloe on April 11, 2012 at 09:13

        We’ll have to agree to disagree about whether Dr. Kruse does harm or not. Where I think he gets into trouble with regard to non-maleficence is that he seems to have no basis for judging whether or not his recommendations will cause harm. He doesn’t know CT will be helpful or harmful for certain conditions because (a) it hasn’t been used or studied in those conditions and (b) he, presumably, is not an expert in those conditions (i.e., he’s a neurosurgeon, not an endocrinologist). There’s also his well-documented history of making exaggerated or false claims about an amazing variety of subjects (e.g., polar bears, the benefits of mindfulness, MRSA). What I think is particularly dangerous about Dr. Kruse is that he thinks he knows far more than he does. Ultimately, though, it’s not up to me, you, or Kamal to decide whether or not he’s an ethical practitioner. It’s up to his state medical board.

      • MM on April 11, 2012 at 11:17


        Your criticisms of Kruse, which are fair and appropriate to other parts of this thread, have nothing to do with my reply to Kamal, which was simply an attempt to correct an error of fact regarding me specifically.

        To state, “We’ll have to agree to disagree about whether Dr. Kruse does harm or not” makes clear that you are having another argument altogether and not reading what I am writing.

        I make no claim whatsoever about whether Kruse, in general, does harm. I make no claim about whether he is an ethical practitioner.

        One last time, as clearly as I can put it: Kruse did not harm ME. Whatever Kruse has or has not done to anyone else, it was wrong for Kamal to use me as an example.

      • Chloe on April 11, 2012 at 12:17

        Sorry, MM, let me clarify what I meant in my previous comment. We’ll have to agree to disagree about whether Dr. Kruse has done harm to YOU and to others in making baseless treatment recommendations. If you would prefer that people not quote you on the internet, do not share your personal health information on the internet. Or, at the very least, recognize that you have no control over where it ends up or how others interpret it. As I indicated before, even if YOU do not believe you’ve been harmed by Dr. Kruse, a medical board may very well disagree.

      • Melissa McEwen on April 3, 2012 at 16:24

        When it comes to things you are skeptical of, it seems you are willing to do the research to back up facts. But not with Dr. Kruse. Methinks you identify him and that’s why you are defending him.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 3, 2012 at 17:53

        When Kruse comes out saying we should be eating pizza and hot pockets to boost our metabolism Ill be more skeptical.

        As it is, what I see is a complex guy writing an incomprehensible blog doing awesome self experiments that you can do at home if you choose. Why fish for red herrings? I don’t even read his blog, never have, but yet found some merest owing to my own years of playing with very cold water.

        Do you understand that’s how I ended the post and what that means?

      • Kamal Patel on April 3, 2012 at 19:10

        I largely agree with you.

        As it is, what I see is a complex guy writing an incomprehensible blog doing [strike]awesome[/strike] self experiments that you can do at home if you choose.

        Cold baths? Fine. Occasionally useful adjunct for calorie burning. Tim Ferriss was not crazy. Cold showers can be invigorating.

        MRSA injections? Prescribing ice baths for pretty much everyone no matter what their comorbidities are? Responsibility is a good characteristic, no matter who you are (especially a doctor actively pushing online medical advice).

      • Jonathan on April 4, 2012 at 08:37

        He didn’t say it was Methicillin-resistant Staph.

        I’m glad to see he can offer up what he is doing and why. If you are to stupid to know if something is going to kill you, maybe you shouldn’t still be alive. All the “not medical advice” warnings only shows how stupid the world has become. If I try shooting myself in the foot because you did it and like it, I shouldn’t win money in a lawsuit, I should get to pay my medical bills like the idiot I proved I was. Is no one responsible for their own actions anymore?

      • jesse on April 4, 2012 at 16:32

        Hi Jonathan,

        He said MRSA which is known to be Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus


      • Erika on April 3, 2012 at 20:32

        We need another Jimmy Moore data-dump post to help make some sense of this.

        And where the HELL is Kurt Harris?

      • Tyler on April 4, 2012 at 14:23

        He’s not been pretty open about calling Kruse how he sees him, which I don’t feel comfortable repeating. :)

      • Brian on April 4, 2012 at 04:46

        Richard: Three hours earlier, you said you “don’t regularly read his blog.” Now you say you “don’t even read his blog, _never have_.” Which is it?

        Since you have not read any of his arguments or rationale, on what basis do you accept his claims as possible, let alone plausible?

      • Richard Nikoley on April 4, 2012 at 09:01

        I meant with regularity. I recall reading a post or two when he came on the scene, maybe last summer.

        I’d heard about Leptin reset, searched his blog and read parts of a couple posts, closed my browser. I just cant read sloppy writing and enormous paragraphs. Then yesterday, I read parts of those two posts on leptin reset and CT in order to get the gist for this post.

      • depthless on April 3, 2012 at 16:25

        And primates evolved from??? At least read Kruse. His argument (which actually holds true) is that pre-primate DNA still exists in our DNA, with mechanisms that can be activated. Which, of course, you reference, so obviously, you did read him, yet choose to misrepresent his argument anyway. And shredding in tissue-paper thin credibility in the process…

      • Melissa on April 3, 2012 at 20:39

        Evolution does not conserve ancient pathways to be re-activated later. It is reductive and efficient. So yeah, pre-primate DNA exists, but the functions that Dr. Kruse mentions have been lost. Unless you have some paper I don’t know about. Evolution is reductive and efficient.

        And even if there were things to be re-activated that have to do with carbs and hibernation, for example, why aren’t they activated in other animals? The ermine in my avatar lives through extreme cold winters in the far north and eats a carnivorous diet. The ermine does not hibernate. No carnivorous mammal does. Also, hibernation in mammals is not triggered by carbohydrates.

      • eva on April 4, 2012 at 01:04

        another question: “No carnivorous mammal does. Also, hibernation in mammals is not triggered by carbohydrates.”
        what? i simply do not get that sentence.

      • jesse on April 4, 2012 at 16:34

        Are polar bears omnivores? Why are we talking about carnivores anyway. And why don’t you think that your furry avatar friend is cold adapted? Why do you think that cold adaptation and hibernation are coupled, they are not as far as I understand it.

      • Paul C on April 5, 2012 at 07:45

        Polar bears go into walking hibernation if food is scarce, which is during “warmer” times because of a lack of hunting ice. They don’t hibernate like other bears, and it is not triggered by cold or carbs.

      • Chloe on April 6, 2012 at 23:27

        In his podcast with Abel James, Jack continues to claim that polar bears hibernate and wake up “shredded” because of the cold exposure. In fact, only pregnant female polar bears hibernate. The rest of them remain active year-round. So do they ever get shredded? Well, they’re able to live off fat stores during the summer and fall when the sea is unfrozen and they can’t hunt for seal. So it seems like their weight loss is due to the fact that they’re starving, not due to cold thermogenesis. Fact checking the rest of this podcast would be exhausting.

      • Leigh on April 7, 2012 at 05:23

        Almost everyone refers to bears as hibernating, although most of them do not do a true hibernation. The point, that their body enters a state that allows them to eat less (or not at all), move less (or not at all), eliminate less (or not at all), and in some cases, breathe & beat the heart dramatically less, is what he’s aiming at here.

        I’d be interested in your analysis of what’s actually going on in people having success with CT to lose fat, decrease appetite, upregulate thyroid function, sleep better, increase strength, and the rest, without nit-picking analogies.

      • Chloe on April 7, 2012 at 05:45

        Leigh, analogies are important when a theory rests on them. Regardless, my first guess as to why CT “works” would be that people are eating less and eating healthier. In other words, any health benefit has nothing to do with CT. Why would I say this? One of my biggest peeves about the paleo world in general (no, for the record, I’m not just picking on Jack Kruse) is the plethora of poorly conducted N = 1 experiments. There are ways to conduct a reasonably well-controlled N = 1 experiment (e.g., taking measurements during a baseline period, changing one variable at a time, measuring again, and then replicating). However, what most in the paleo word mean by N = 1 is something to the effect of, “I sat in a cold water tub the other day and I feel more alive than I have before” or “I just adopted a paleo diet and CT and I’m losing weight, so it must be the CT that’s doing it.” In the former example, someone is reporting a benefit that is very hard to measure objectively, and doesn’t report any baseline measurements. In the latter example, the person changes (at least) two variables at once, yet attributes the observed benefit to CT. In short, while I’m glad people are having success losing weight, improving thyroid function, etc., until I see a series of actual, well-controlled N = 1 experiments, I’m not going to even bother thinking much more about it (you’ll notice, by the way, that I’m not insisting that RCTs are the only standard of proof). In summary, Dr. Kruse’s theory of CT seems to be based on shaky assumptions and have little evidence to support it. I guess I don’t agree with Jack that the critical difference between humans and polar bears is that “one lives by the rules of Mother Nature in fall and winter and the other one creates a constant summer in its house.”

      • Evelyn aka CarbSane on April 7, 2012 at 06:03

        It’s stuff like this, uncontroversial facts that Jack not only states but states repeatedly that should render this man irrelevant.

        I’m listening to the podcast now. Jack’s critics are questioning everything about what he says. When you read stuff like this polar bears hibernating and coming out “shredded”, it just makes him sound like a total crank.

        Back to mental masturbation. What an arrogant ass.

      • Leigh on April 7, 2012 at 06:07

        I’m not sure there’s anyone disputing that last claim, lol.

      • Leigh on April 7, 2012 at 06:13

        The theory doesn’t rest on the analogy. The analogy is one example of how parts of the theory play out in the world.

        Most of those (on Jack’s forum) doing CT right now and having success were already eating paleo/primal, and already experiencing appetites naturally decreased by fat, protein, and for many, the leptin reset. I am one of those. CT is the only variable in my N=1, and I am paying close attention to which of the others reporting success are adding only one change, versus the others who are changing diet & adding CT at the same time.

        I share your enthusiasm for a properly conducted experiment and properly drawn conclusions!

      • Chloe on April 7, 2012 at 06:20

        By the way, I tried posting (twice) to Jack’s blog to clarify the polar bear hibernation issue. Both comments were deleted. Ridiculous. I swear, unless you’re bowing at his feet, he doesn’t want to hear from you.

      • Leigh on April 7, 2012 at 06:29

        As I mentioned elsewhere, the same has happened to me at the blog of one of the people posting here, opposed to Kruse’s work. I don’t defend that, not sure I would take that approach if I had a blog, although I suppose they could do what they want.

        He does take dissent; I’ve seen it and done it. I’m not sure what the difference is from one instance to another.

      • Michael on April 7, 2012 at 15:48

        Actually I have tried to post to two very prominent bloggers on their websites also, and they have not allowed me to either. I was not being argumentative, I just asked for clarification and questioned them, or tried to add my thoughts to the post. I asked Dr. Kruse a question and he answered me back in less than five minutes. I do not claim to understand any of Dr. Kruse’s ideas or most of the ideas and scientific papers I read on these sites. To use an all too used adjective in these forums, it feels “disingenuous.”

      • Lisa truitt on November 5, 2012 at 10:03

        I’m not sure what hibernation has to do with anything. The interview I heard on YouTube involved observations by NASA that astronauts who went into space reduced their food intake and lost weight. Supposedly they discovered that this was due to the cold environment so then they looked for people on earth to study and studied the sherpas. Apparently cold activates brown adipose tissue and accounted for the astronauts weight loss. It makes sense to me that modern humans controlling their environment so they don’t have to live in accordance to natural cycles of day and night and never have to experience seasonal changes such as winter would have negative effects.

      • Dana on April 3, 2012 at 19:10

        We didn’t lose our older traits just because we became primates near the equator. Primates don’t hibernate but I suspect (based on some pretty interesting evidence I’ve read) that the genetic potential is still there, and manifests itself in interesting ways.

        And we do respond metabolically to shortened daylight duration and colder weather. We didn’t stay at the equator, remember? I think half the problem with the “Paleo movement” is it assumes we’re all *still* at the equator–and that just doesn’t work. You can’t live like equatorial people if you’re in Alaska. Or even in Minnesota. Or New York City. Not unless you cheat with modern technology one hell of a lot.

      • Francis on April 3, 2012 at 23:37

        Primates don’t hibernate but I suspect (based on some pretty interesting evidence I’ve read) that the genetic potential is still there, and manifests itself in interesting ways.

        Company that has found evidence of possible therapeutic applications of the above:

      • Rose on April 4, 2012 at 06:36

        “Primates don’t hibernate…”

      • Leigh on April 3, 2012 at 19:19

        I have always figured, long before I ever heard of Jack Kruse, that if my body has completely changed color and D production to deal with the change in latitude, there are other changes as well that I neglect at my peril.

      • Erin on April 3, 2012 at 19:57

        This. I think we underestimate these older pre-primate traits.

        All I know is that following these principles as an experiment, suddenly my skin is softer, my hair is getting thicker, I fall asleep faster, my body comp is easier to change (and my muscles are developing faster), my hormone balance is changing in a good way and I have way less inflammation than I did before. And my body temps run warmer, which is a wonderful thing when you have Hashimoto’s.
        Something is happening that wasn’t happening on regular Paleo/Primal…

    • Phillip Upton on April 3, 2012 at 17:08

      “It’s all about mammalian metabolism being tied directly to seasonal temp and light cycles.”


      So you would only do cold therapy during the winter then? I mean, otherwise it would throw off that “delicate balance” that only allows you to eat carbs when the sun is up for more than a few hours a day.

      As someone that lives in northern Minnesota, I really don’t feel the need to supplement my cold exposure.

      Or mess with the few warm days what we do have.

      • Leigh on April 3, 2012 at 18:57

        Yes, unless you’re ill, ostensibly, from your lifelong summer (constant warmth, light, & carbs, usually in gross excess). Then you stick to winter a bit.

        Most people in very cold climates don’t get cold very often. If they did, carefully and gradually, they might find the cold more tolerable. I have.

  12. Uncephalized on April 3, 2012 at 16:00

    My only real objection to Kruse is incomprehensibility. It’s just not worth the work of trying to interpret his ramblings to decide if he makes any sense to me or not.

    I’ve heard he’s much better in person and that he just can’t write clearly. which is fine, and if I ever get the chance to have an actual conversation with him, I’ll form an opinion then. :)

    • Jordi on April 3, 2012 at 17:19

      I would have to agree. He is totally incomprehensible to me, both in writing and for the 5 mins I tried to talk to him at the AHS.

  13. Mike on April 3, 2012 at 16:05

    Smearing yourself before surgery with potentially life threatening bacteria. If true where was the MRSA obtained? It is one thing to put yourself at risk and it is another to risk the lives of others to prove a theory right or wrong. MRSA is very dangerous stuff that can cause skin infections to serious life threatening pneumonia. What if someone in the hospital developed this infection and it could track back to a patient smearing it on themselves before surgery?

    • Richard Nikoley on April 3, 2012 at 16:10

      Mike, people on my FB page who work in hospital setting say its no biggie, most carry it, and they generally laugh at the outrage.

      Just another day at the office for them.

      • Mike on April 3, 2012 at 16:15

        It is true most hospital workers are colonized with MRSA and do not have active infections. It is another thing to spread yourself with the stuff before a surgery. He should have just drank it and spared everyone, but himself the possible exposure. I also hope he did not take his MRSA ridden self to the hospital the next day to operate on some patients

      • Melissa McEwen on April 3, 2012 at 16:22

        Are you just ignoring Dr. Emily Deans? The only person working in a hospital commenting who is an actual doctor?

      • Kamal Patel on April 3, 2012 at 16:28

        Also, Dr. Kurt Harris.

        Also also, the oncologist at my work. And my friend doing an infectious disease fellowship. And the general surgeon in the office next door. Half of them say it’s careless and ridiculous, and half of them say he must be lying to get attention. I’m not a surgeon or a doctor, so maybe they’re all wrong. But I suspect not.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 3, 2012 at 16:54


        Let me be more explicit in general. :)

        What I resent at base is the question begging. That is, the false presumption that in the myriad risk scenarios that involve other people on a daily basis, that everyone goes on totally bright eyed, that everyone divulged every potential risk, and so on.

        Of course, that’s not practical, we all know it. I’ve no idea of what disclosures Kruse did or didn’t give. I assume that since he’s made it as public as possible and those involved likely know who they are and who he is, there are ways to deal with it if there’s really anything to deal with.

        Alternatively, perhaps everyone can just ask Jack for the names of the people in OR with him, they can look them up, and get all in their business.

        Sound like a plan?

      • Kamal Patel on April 3, 2012 at 17:14

        The hospital safety issue is way outside my knowledge-base (although I have had MRSA that sent me to the emergency room before). So what I think about his TED talk is not really so important at all.

        My main issue with Kruse is entirely apart from incomprehensibility and risk scenarios. There are bloggers I find entertaining, bloggers I find that are idea-generating, and bloggers that know the evidence cold (har har!). Often, these go together. But pretty much all the best paleo bloggers seem pretty darn cool. Guyenet is chill as heck and is very precise. Kurt Harris speaks his mind and synthesize ideas in an amazing fashion. Deans knows more about making you happy than most anyone else. You shoot from the hip and experiment with the best of them.

        But nobody pretends like Kruse does. In the early days of paleohacks, he threw out dozens of very wrong statements (meditation reduces cancer incidence 52%! avocados go brown because of omega 6 content! etc etc). And then he would copy and paste from other people without citing them at all. And then he would ridicule you if you tried to argue facts.

        My day job is analyzing clinical trials, evaluating the biostats, judging trial quality and applicability, and synthesizing the evidence. I’ve been in school for nutrition for a bajillion years. Therefore, I resent being ridiculed just because I’m questioning someone on an opinion masquerading as a fact. Like Kruse one time told me that I could find his “fact” in any basic nutrition book, and referred me to one that was right in front of me on my bookshelf! Needless to say, the “fact” was not at all in there. And to top it off, when someone speaks out against Kruse nowadays, it’s open season on attacking them!

        So if you are okay with rants, I will continue to rant until all the ranting has escaped my pores. There is nothing wrong with keto, ice baths, or leptin. It’s the misapplication of facts and boasting that irks me.

      • Victoria on April 3, 2012 at 17:39

        “Misapplication of facts”


        The end recommendations (though I’m not really familiar with what he says about “cold thermogenesis”) may be decent and effective, but from what I’ve seen of his writing (and I will open myself up to criticism, because I really can’t bear to read too much of his stuff), he usually totally flawed logic and/or bogus facts to get there.

        As scientists, we can hypothesis. We can suggest a mechanism and create a case for an actionable plan, but that case must be open to scrutiny and discussion. When the case is largely incomprehensible and bolstered by misinformation, it loses credibility, as does the person pandering the message.

      • Kamal Patel on April 3, 2012 at 17:57

        Victoria is a smarty pants who doesn’t make up stuff. Look at her website.

        There is a conspicuous lack of discombobulated writing, and no errant and lofty claims. This is interesting, because as an MD/PhD student, she could use her knowledge to mind-freak everyone with biochem pathways and random citations. Solid, informative posts don’t get as much attention as comparing yourself to Einstein and Michaelangelo.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 3, 2012 at 18:57

        “There is nothing wrong with keto, ice baths, or leptin. It’s the misapplication”

        So interesting.

        Since I wrote the post I seem to recall that that is what it’s about, though I did understand the context would open up.

        That’s fine, but keep in mond that the post is about whether these hacks really work for most or not.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 3, 2012 at 19:21

        “As scientists, we can hypothesis. We can suggest a mechanism and create a case for an actionable plan, but that case must be open to scrutiny and discussion. When the case is largely incomprehensible and bolstered by misinformation, it loses credibility, as does the person pandering the message.”

        Sure can. No doubt.

        Then you wait 40 years for the snail to get from point A to B and when the media, whoever’s president, and the MSM say so you can go forward. All the researchers are retired and living on fat pensions by that time…while you breathe your last breath and bid your grandchildren goodbeye.

        I love this thread, so far. It’s shaping up that the licensed or those working in the field in support hate Jack Kruse. Wonder if any have reported him, yet.

        I suspect that won’t be far off at all.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 3, 2012 at 19:36

        “….don’t get as much attention as comparing yourself to Einstein and Michaelangelo”

        Oh, did he do that? Shit, I was angling for God, if you saw the vid clip.

        Thing is, I was and remain able to contextualize hyperbole. I had no idea so many others had such a prob with it.

      • Victoria on April 4, 2012 at 03:27

        I’m sorry, you must have misinterpreted me. When I said “suggest a case for an actionable plan”, I did mean that you should, actually, follow that plan. You should also, however, be willing and open to discuss it and not rely on incomprehensible babble to impress people.

        I love science. A good peer-reviewed paper on an interesting subject is a pleasure to read, but I tend to fall into the camp that will put more weight in an evolutionarily-based well reasoned argument over a conclusion reached from a single peer-reviewed study. That’s the beauty of an evolutionary-based approach to health and wellness- you have a paradigm in which to think about most aspects of health and disease.

        I am, by no means, saying “continue the status quo until rigorously proven otherwise”. What I am saying, is “if you’re going to make claims, and proclaim they are scientifically or evolutionarily based, make your reasoning clear and be open to discussion”. Following someone’s claims because of their academic pedigree, because they are charismatic, and because you are blinded by their (baffling) logic, is akin to blind religious belief… something I thought you would be opposed to.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 4, 2012 at 07:59

        Fair enough on all that, Victoria.

        But let’s be clear about one thing. My angle here is exclusively Jack the personality. I said right in the post that I find his posts rambling and incomprehensible. That said, I do not find them particularly risky or dangerous either.

        And some of the hand-wringing nannyism really makes me chuckle.

        For better or worse, Jack has a lot of people’s attention and this post and comment thread is endeavor to nderstand why more than anythng else.

      • Victoria on April 4, 2012 at 10:32

        OK- not really sure what you’re aiming for… a couple comments back it was “do these hacks work”, and now it’s “Jack the personality”.

        My 2c, on the ‘for better or worse’ comment, is that all this attention (recognition, accolades, speaking invitations, etc) is something for the worse. It appears to me that he is a person who has built a reputation based on a title, grandiose (and illogical) pontification, and misstatement of fact. If someone who you disagreed with (Oh I don’t know, chose your favorite blathering Australian vegan idiot) did this, you would take them to task and rip them a new one- such an individual discredits the whole concept they are trying to promote.

        When you have someone promoting health and wellness ideas, claiming that they are backed by evolutionary principles and science (when in fact it is all mumbo-jumbo) you aren’t just setting yourself up for a big fall, you’re setting up the whole CONCEPT that you are inappropriately representing.

        I am a future physician. When people ask me what specialty I am going to go into I tell them “evolutionary medicine” which usually leads to an explanation and some interesting conversation. Most people haven’t really thought about the concept of ancestral health or evolutionary medicine, but many (at least as I have found) are receptive when they are given a reasonable and appropriate introduction. I WANT people to know about evolutionary medicine and medical practices based in evolutionary principles. I just hope that someone who happens to catch the public eye doesn’t go out and destroy the whole thing with fits of idiotic hyperbole causing this whole movement to crash and burn in the public eye.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 4, 2012 at 10:40

        “OK- not really sure what you’re aiming for… a couple comments back it was “do these hacks work”, and now it’s “Jack the personality”.”

        Victoria. Both, really, but it’s the personality that motivated me to bother. Personalities are very important in the human social mileu and I wanted to explore this. But, the only reason I did so is because I see his actual prescriptions (not how he arrived at them, or even the narrative underlying it all, which I consider highly hyperbolic).

        So that’s why I’d entertain the personality Jack, and not the personality Durianrider. Both could be equally full of shit as to how they arrive at their prescriptions, but one has the advantage in my view of being right in many respects and reasonable in the more questionable areas, like CT.

        To get a better sense of where I’m coming from, see Sean Abbot’s comment on why this is OK, as well as the doc from Chicaco with the neurosurgeon cousin.

        That said, you’re at a stage where it is essential for you to take a very skeptical approach. I get that. Applaud it, too.

      • Chloe on April 4, 2012 at 12:15

        I’d be shocked if someone hadn’t already reported him to the Tennessee Board of Health. He had the hubris to state (brag?) at a public lecture that he injected himself with a dangerous pathogen before undergoing surgery. And if people did a little research on him, they would quickly discover that he’s offering consultations for a $248/mo website subscription fee. I just did a Google search and found the regulations for “telemedicine” in the state of TN. I sure hope Kruse has a good lawyer advising him! It turns out that he’ll need a telemedicine license, all consultations will have to involve a referring physician in the patient’s home state, and Jack’s consultations must be restricted to his specialty area (i.e., neurosurgery; no, ancestral pathways are NOT a specialty area, though he would probably try to argue that they are). I’m not sure how Jack plans to consult monthly with all his Kruse Klub members, but something tells me that he deserves a little extra attention from the TN Board of Health.

      • Jscott on April 5, 2012 at 09:34

        One of the best lines in this blog-I have snagged a list of 40+- and begging for elaboration:

        “Are you able to contextualize hyperbole?”

        Mashed with Bill Hicks

        “Are you able to contextualize hyperbole? No? Fucking kill yourself.”

      • Richard Nikoley on April 5, 2012 at 11:48

        “Are you able to contextualize hyperbole? No? Fucking kill yourself.”


      • CG on April 5, 2012 at 13:26

        “First, gather your facts; then, distort them at your leisure.” — Mark Twain

      • Emily Deans on April 3, 2012 at 17:38

        I’ll add 10 more MDs I’ve surveyed in the past 2 days. But of course this argument “has nothing to do with licenses, certifications, degrees.”

      • Richard Nikoley on April 3, 2012 at 19:14

        It certainly never does, Emily.

        It may satisfy you, but arguments from authority, while cozy, just never cut it.

        If you’ll notice very carefully, there is not a sngle argument in my blog post about Jack as an authority. And you’re prepared to give me 10.

      • Emily Deans on April 3, 2012 at 19:18

        yes, the “know-nothing” argument is always so persuasive

      • Richard Nikoley on April 3, 2012 at 21:40

        Emily, an admission of ignorance is actually simple honesty. It’s not an argument.

        I love how worked up you are, though.

      • Emily Deans on April 5, 2012 at 05:07

        Honesty… I believe you to be disingenuous. There are innumerable senseless folks on the internet, as we have daily proof. I had not counted you among them. You could be proving me wrong.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 5, 2012 at 08:12

        Yea, that’s right. Disingenuous.

        That’s why I created the one place I know of that’s completely unmoderated where fans and foes alike get to post whatever they want on the subject and it’s all here for current, future and potential fans to see.

        See, I’m just not a gate keeper. Rather, I tear down walls (and smile at the hand-wringing over all the ensuing couldas)

      • Richard Nikoley on April 3, 2012 at 16:28

        I’m trying not to ignore anyone, Melissa. I’m trying to get past the silly OMG everywhere, as though everyone’s just gone to Kindergarten, day 1.

        I like real arguments. I don’t care really care much for blog forensics and I care even less about hand wringing.

        If what Jack said he did Jan 9th is true, it’s something that merits a look see. I see people are doing that, at least as if to strongly admonish not to look.

        Now I’m going to sit back and brace myself for the eventual argument about German experiments in WWII that yielded valid knowledge but were unethical, Goodwin always wins in the end.

      • Emily Deans on April 3, 2012 at 17:30

        It’s not advisable to allow kindergarteners to play with MRSA. Or, apparently, Nashville neurosurgeons.

      • Meredith on April 3, 2012 at 17:42

        I support your central argument that playing with MRSA is a terrible idea.

      • Emily Deans on April 3, 2012 at 17:54

        Oh, come now. Let’s not allow common sense to get in the way of rhetoric.

      • Leigh on April 3, 2012 at 18:24

        Why are some paleo people so convinced that all immune systems must be susceptible to the worst bacteria? It’s not the germ, it’s the terrain.

      • Emily Deans on April 3, 2012 at 18:29

        Tell that to most of the humans who have ever lived who died of infections disease. “Terrain” is a good term. Staph has nearly a free-for-all when not a surface contaminant. Injecting it is one of the more idiotic things a person could possibly do. I wouldn’t trust Kruse to feed my goldfish after hearing about his stunt.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 3, 2012 at 18:52


        Who did Kruse inject with bacteria?

      • Emily Deans on April 3, 2012 at 19:06

        An idiot

      • Kamal Patel on April 3, 2012 at 19:13

        Ha! Oh my goodness that was fresh. Original Paleo Queens of Comedy right here.

      • Leigh on April 3, 2012 at 19:17

        With a heart immune system.

      • Leigh on April 3, 2012 at 19:21

        Dang, make that “hearty”, typos must be catching.

        Or maybe it’s the screaming baby kicking me.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 3, 2012 at 19:32


        Does he have a right to be an idiot in your judgment?

      • Emily Deans on April 4, 2012 at 17:41

        I’m ignoring your arguments not because they fly above my pretty little head. I’m ignoring them because they are so deeply unimportant to the context at hand. I make a judgment of a man based on his actions, his writings, his history, his education. I consider these actions of Kruse to be unethical, unscientific, and despicable. He combines a barely readable weblog and a very dubious understanding of the English language, physics, genetics, evolution, and biology. Do I infringe upon his rights, somehow, by making this judgment? Do I lessen his ability to astound us with his idiocy? Clearly not. Thus I see your argument as perpendicular.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 4, 2012 at 17:45

        You didn’t answer my question, Emily. I know what your judgment is. I asked you whether or not Jack has the right to withstand it.

        Or to put it in pedestrian terms, should uniforms and guns show up?

      • Emily Deans on April 4, 2012 at 18:09

        Why should they, when he immolates himself?

      • Richard Nikoley on April 4, 2012 at 19:05

        OK, Emily.

        So, you and others are going to argue that Jack is so far out of bounds that he’s a potential danger to himself and others (implied and explicitly claimed) and yet, you hedge on the issue of whether the forces of government should reign him in via investigations, sanctions, prosecution, etc.

        I do believe I’ve asked the question directly enough. But if you think a process such as this, where lots of Jack fans will see the back and forth is better then government intervention, or, you don’t think whatever he’s done rises to that level regardless, you’re more than welcome to make that explicit.

      • Emily Deans on April 5, 2012 at 05:09

        If the Tennessee Medical Board gets wind of this stunt I would be surprised if there were no investigation.

      • Chloe on April 5, 2012 at 07:47

        I know of one person who has already tipped off the Tennessee Medical Board. Not sure how much attention the tip will get, given that it’s coming from someone out of state who heard of the MRSA stunt on the internet (as opposed to coming from someone with direct involvement in the incident). But she felt it was her ethical obligation to bring it to the board’s attention.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 5, 2012 at 08:08


        I guess I’ll just drop it. You’re just not willing to say what _you_ think should happen to Jack.

      • Michael on April 5, 2012 at 12:20

        Hi Richard,
        Wow! Been reading this post and comments since you posted it. I think you hit a home run with this one, in more ways than one. I love how you push the boundaries. I think this post let us get a peak into many bloggers in this community that we have never seen.
        I may be a little slow, but I am not sure why or what you are trying to get Dr. Emily Deans to say here. What does it matter should she say she thinks Dr. Kruse should be locked up?

      • Richard Nikoley on April 5, 2012 at 12:46

        “What does it matter should she say she thinks Dr. Kruse should be locked up?”

        What matters is when someone argues as though obviously, they should be locked up, but without saying so, and then when pressed, evades saying so one way or the other.

      • Emily Deans on April 5, 2012 at 13:44

        Richard, were I to be on hand at the hearing at the Tennessee Medical Board, I would need to know far more details. I would need to speak to Jack in person for a full evaluation, speak to the family, look at any records of the surgery and the case, and look into his contracts for his online consulting gig, and have working knowledge of Tennessee medical law. If a doctor is impaired, he should not be practicing until he gets better. It is a very serious decision that put’s Kruse’s livelihood in question, far more serious than my scathing comments on the internet, which have an entirely different purpose (mostly to offer a counterpoint to his withering confidence and to lend credence to those who thought his actions and words were beyond comprehension).

        Now I don’t think I ever argued that Jack should be locked up. I am not at liberty to speculate specifically about his mental health in an open and public forum thanks to the Goldwater law (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/24/health/views/24mind.html).

        All I can do is point out the (obvious and public) behavior without any reference to the cause or speicifc diagnosis that may be behind them. Were I to be a consultant for the Tennessee medical board, I would have far more freedom. I am not, but I have served at times in hospitals to determine capacity (whether or not someone in an emergency situation has the capacity to refuse or accept medical treatment, for example.)

        I have also served as treater for physicians who have been determined to be impaired by the board of medicine, and have helped them to return to practicing medicine, with specific reports and requirements to the board, as is standard.

        SO. In part I do not answer you with a frank yes or no in public because I am actually constrained by law. And also because I think that question is not practical. Only the Tennessee board has the power to answer it.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 5, 2012 at 13:52

        Fair enough Emily.

        I have no problem with a professional opinion that he’s said enough to warrant having it looked into.

      • Evelyn aka CarbSane on April 5, 2012 at 14:08


        Am I way off base here that he would probably be out of line treating MRSA with CT in his neurosurgery clinic? I mean I’m going by my recent experiences with my Mom who contracted a staph infection following knee surgery. She was treated by a different doctor specializing in infections. Sure her primary and the knee doc were consulted and kept aprised of her progress, but they really had no input other than referring her to a specialist. Jack is claiming to be treating a patient with MRSA that hasn’t responded to treatments with cold therapy in his practice. This seems outside proper practices. Am I right?

      • Richard Nikoley on April 5, 2012 at 14:19

        “Jack is claiming to be treating a patient with MRSA that hasn’t responded to treatments with cold therapy in his practice. This seems outside proper practices. Am I right?”

        FWIW, that would get a serious eyebrow raise from me.

        I’m not willing, yet, to speculate that he’s gone totally Maverick with this. Moreso, perhaps on himself but even there details are lacking and it could very well be that the plastic surgeon was a buddy and they both went Maverick on the deal. But if I were to jump to a conclusion without all the info, I’d say it’s more likely that he’s doing this CT on an MRSI patient not responding to convention in league with whoever is caring for the patient primarily or in a specialist scenario.

      • Emily Deans on April 5, 2012 at 14:34

        I’ve never heard of using cold to treat resistant MRSA. Since, in Hof’s experiment, cold seemed to reduce inflammation in response to LPS, cold therapy would seem to me to be illogical. After all, the body’s evolved response to acute bacterial infection is actually to increase temperature via a fever.

        That’s all speculation. Someone could check pubmed.

        Malpractice involves the four Ds of negligence. 1, that a physician-patient relationship exists (so the physician has a duty to the patient.) 2, a dereliction of that duty (so engaging in non-standard practice, according to expert witnesses at trial, practically speaking). 3, direct cause, that the actions of the physician directly harmed the patient, and 4, damages.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 5, 2012 at 14:59

        “After all, the body’s evolved response to acute bacterial infection is actually to increase temperature via a fever.”

        Exactly the thought I had days ago. The counter-intuitive interestingness of it, for me, was that:

        1. It’s a body temp-based defense.

        2. Do microbes have less temperature leeway than the body as a whole?

        3. Is it a clearer evolutionary path to turn up everything and raise temp than to turn down everything and lower it?

        So, what if both a fever and low BT are effective in killing off little buggers but it just so happens that cold is more effective, perhaps because other things come into play?


      • Emily Deans on April 5, 2012 at 15:38

        Older folks who have lower core body temps are unable to mount a fever are more vulnerable to infection. However, there is the opposite explanation that “CT” might work via increasing body temp in reponse to the cold. Folks with hypothermia obviously have the opposite happen.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 5, 2012 at 16:21

        “However, there is the opposite explanation that “CT” might work via increasing body temp in reponse to the cold. Folks with hypothermia obviously have the opposite happen.”

        Which means that if Jack is actually onto a valid therapy, knowing clinicians take these various factors into account, just like with all generally valid therapies, right?

        I think the idea is to get people basically hypothermic in a controlled setting, see if it’s more effective in fighting infection than raising BT.

        Is that insane?

      • VW on April 6, 2012 at 09:39

        Do they still chase people down with butterfly nets? I’d like to see Kruse trapped in this way, perhaps while he’s onstage speaking at some ancestral symposium

      • Emily Deans on April 7, 2012 at 12:29

        Who is to say how vulnerable someone is? Can’t raise the body temp, (for whatever reason) CT will lower it and make you *more* vulnerable to infection. Or too much CT will regardless. Dispensing ice pack advice ad lib over the internet??? Pretty careless. Like any hormetic stressor dosage is key. Hours and hours is like drinking a barrel of red wine. Your liver will die before the antioxidants can save you.

      • v on April 9, 2012 at 08:23

        richard n said :”I’m trying not to ignore anyone, Melissa. I’m trying to get past the silly OMG everywhere, as though everyone’s just gone to Kindergarten, day 1.”

        i love it!!!

      • Steve on April 3, 2012 at 22:56

        MRSA can be dangerous stuff. I’m not a doctor, true, but I am a nurse in an ICU, I have had VRE infected urine splashed in my face, been stuck with a dirty needle just used on a Hep C + patient. I don’t want to make light of the dangers of MRSA, I’ve seen people die from it. From a purely ethical standpoint, I hope Dr. Kruse let the Doctor working on him know what he did, he should have. I don’t think it would have made any difference in his doing the operation, or how he did it, but maybe. There is a risk you take on anytime you open the human body up and have lot’s of sharp things around. When I have seen MRSA + pt’s go to surgery, about the only thing done differently is PPE placed on the pt for the trip to the OR. Dr. Kruse placed himself in a lot of danger, it’s a crazy thing to do, but as long as he followed standard precautions and used good hand hygiene in the hospital setting, which frankly most Doc’s I have seen are horrible at doing, he did not place any patients at any more risk than they already are at being in the hospital. He did place himself at considerable risk. I guess I just thought the comments on Richards FB page were a bit of an over reaction to the risk he placed others at. MRSA is everywhere, even if a pt hasn’t been tested for it, you have to assume they (or me, for that matter) are colonized with it and take the proper precautions not to give it to an immune compromised pt. But it’s not like he injected himself with live small pox. But hey, maybe I am wrong, if there is a surgeon on here, I would like to hear their thoughts.

    • Dana on April 3, 2012 at 19:12

      Not all staph is MRSA. Who said MRSA? Did I miss something?

      • Beth@WeightMaven on April 4, 2012 at 10:46

        Kruse talks about it in the forums on his site. He apparently cultured it from a family member.

  14. Sherry on April 3, 2012 at 16:09

    I must be considered one of his “blind followers” but I’ve always been a rebel so call me what you will. The leptin reset took away my cravings, improved my sleep and dumped some unwanted fat. I’m not overweight, but over-fat somewhat because of menopause. The CT has been nothing short of amazing for me. My hormones are miraculously stabilizing into appropriate ranges. For 15 years I’ve not been able to get balanced hormones. That’s enough proof for me. If you’ve tried his protocol and it hasn’t worked it’s possible that you needed more time or maybe it just won’t work for you. But, name calling? Doesn’t seem to match what we should be focusing on.

    • Richard Nikoley on April 3, 2012 at 16:13

      Sherry, did I call _you_ blind?

      More importantly, are you still blind? Had things gone the other way for you, would you still be soaking in a cold tub?

    • julianne on April 3, 2012 at 16:17

      I’m all menopausal right now – with hot flushes and sweats, and some chills, sporadically during the day. Interesting you say this as the last week or so – after going to crossfit, I’ve been having a cold bath after, and my temperature regulation has been noticalbly better after that for the rest of the day.

      • Melissa McEwen on April 3, 2012 at 16:31

        Let’s not forget the Dr. Jack Kruse did not invent cold bathing. John Durant has been blogging about it for ages now. I’ve been doing it as part of my sauna regimin for years.

      • Michael on April 3, 2012 at 16:39

        I think Ian Fleming also wrote about cold baths in his James Bond books. That was in the 50’s!

      • Mike on April 3, 2012 at 16:41

        I have been fully submerging myself in 42 degree water for all of my waking hours and feel fantastic

      • Richard Nikoley on April 3, 2012 at 18:02

        Ok, is he claiming he nvented it?

        No? Then why raise that issue unless….

        He’s taking a new turn on it and I doubt he’d deny that.

        From my own experience with the guys in the gym over years, lots of them plumged, but they did as I did initially, never advanced. They go in’ dip, stay for 30 s at most, get out, I took it to 15 minutes, over time, and that’s the difference.

      • Sean on April 3, 2012 at 18:16

        Yes, and let’s not forget that Einstein didn’t invent relativity.

        And no I’m not saying Kruse is another Einstein.

      • Dana on April 3, 2012 at 19:13

        Yeah, but which of you regularly recommends it as part of a health regimen? Or at least pushes it as hard as Dr. Kruse does?

  15. Brian on April 3, 2012 at 16:11

    “Jack hasn’t hurt a soul” – didn’t he expose the operating doctors to MRSA?

    Some things about his claims don’t make sense. If he was in screaming pain, how did he drive himself home? If it was just a few simple plastic surgery incisions, why did it take 6 hours, much longer than a standard procedure of that kind?

    • Richard Nikoley on April 3, 2012 at 16:16

      “didn’t he expose the operating doctors to MRSA?”

      Who knows, it’s beside the point. He “exposes” hundreds with his volitional behavior every day in a far more profound way…by getting in a car and firing it up.

      Yep, everyone signed onto getting on the roadway with him. Go figure.

      By the way, this is the dumbest fuckimg argument and I do hope people can do better.

      • Mike on April 3, 2012 at 16:23

        I completely disagree. The fact that you feel this argument is dumb just shows how little you know about hospitals and infections. If he told the surgeon that operated on him that he spread MRSA all over his body pre-operatively I am sure the surgery would have been cancelled. A family member is a medical director at a large academic teaching institution. When he read about this at my suggestion he was completely outraged. Regarding this, I value his opinion much more than yours. I am waiting for the video and if shown I believe it will be more of a fairy tale than a documentary

      • Richard Nikoley on April 3, 2012 at 17:22

        Oh, you showed this to someone and they got outraged? Oh, sorry, “completely outraged.”

        Well that makes a difference.

      • Mike on April 4, 2012 at 17:18

        Yes, I discussed it with someone who knows more about MRSA than you are I and he was outraged, I mean completely outraged. You can make light of it all you want, but the MRSA thing, if it is true will be Dr. Jack’s undoing.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 4, 2012 at 17:26

        Well, at least you confirmed the emphatic, not just outrage, complete outrage. I suppose there’s an important distinction in that, somewhere.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 4, 2012 at 17:28

        Imagine his reaction over everyday people playing with high explosives for fun.

        I’m sure he would just as equally know all the circumstances, who signed up, conditions, safety precautions, etc.

        He’d _completely_ know it.

      • Brian on April 3, 2012 at 18:40

        What exactly is it the “dumbest fuckimg argument” against? You claimed he hasn’t hurt a soul, without having reviewed the hospital records for any subsequent incidents of MRSA infections. I indicate how he could have easily infected doctors, who would then infect other patients, and I add to that that he couldn’t possibly have known ahead of time that he wouldn’t infect anyone. Your response is that it’s “beside the point”, but one of your points is that he hasn’t hurt anyone, so how is my response irrelevant to that?

        Your car analogy would only be valid if he had gotten in his car and purposely driven recklessly, or put it on cruise control and took a nap. You cannot continuously, volitionally control the actions of infectious bacteria the way you can control a car.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 4, 2012 at 08:26

        It would be easy enough to place a few phone calls and ascertain whether anyone in that OR was harmed. Until then, it’s a big coulda, and a number of nurses and other med professionals have already said that MRSA is already everywhere and they deal with it all the time.

        So we’re back to hand wringing couldas

      • Joseph Fetz on April 4, 2012 at 16:21

        “So we’re back to hand wringing couldas”

        I never could understand these “coulda” arguments. For instance, I run stop signs and red lights all the time if there’s no reason to stop (i.e. there are no cars going through the intersection). About a week ago, some asshat followed me beeping and attempting to cut me off and screaming at me to stop (I ignored him, of course). Once I reached my destination he started yapping about how I coulda did this or that, or some hypothetical situation coulda happened, etc. I looked him straight in the eye and asked, “well, did it happen?” His answer was “no”. To which I told him to “fuck off” and then proceeded to carry on with my day.

        Until and if something actually *does* happen it is entirely irrelevant. When that day comes, then we can talk. At least, that is my opinion on the stupidity I am observing from the “coulda” arguments above. Further, the burden of proof is on them.

    • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 3, 2012 at 16:57

      Jack’s claims don’t make sense because they are lies.

      To inject yourself with MRSA before an operation in a public facility would be a criminal act and would have your license revoked in any state of the union, and rightly so.

      The disturbing thing here is not that the man is either a pathological liar or a criminal, it is that so many people can be so stupid to be taken in by a single thing the man says.

      None of it withstands the most casual google or wikipedia based scrutiny by anyone who can read english.

      Phelps swimming in 50 F water – total bullshit. No swimming pool on the planet is that cold. Upper 70s F is cold water if you are a swimmer.

      Immersing yourself up to the neck in near-flreezing ice water for 4 hours – physiologically impossible without death.

      Cold therapy is some kind of magic that lengthens your telomeres? That explains why wisconsin ice fisherman live to be 100 – NOT.

      None of his evolutionary arguments makes a bit of scientific sense. It is obvious he has never read a thing about actual evolutionary science or even genetics.

      Of course lately the rule seems to be that the more popular and commercial you are in the “paleo ” world the less you actually know or read about evolution.

      INJECTING YOURSELF with MRSA (as if there is a source for it ) – a total lie as this would likely give you sepsis due to toxins and would be a criminal act to expose the hospital personnel and other personnel. If he actually did this, then his license should be revoked and criminal charges filed. Ask an anesthesiologist what they would do if a surgeon actually did this in their OR.

      Learning any of these things requires no training in evolutionary biology or medicine. That is just extra knowledge that helps you dismiss every emission by this clown in about 30 seconds.

      This taste for reality TV and transgressive, over the top cultural spectacle is simultaneously appalling and boring. Now we see that this a motivating force for bloggin as well.

      People at large seem to be almost irredeemably stupid, and the whole Kruse phenomenon could not be a better illustration of this.

      Richard, I am honestly totally surprised at your admiration for this self-styled anti-hero who is actively hurting people with his stupid pseudoscientific advice.

      Do you need the blog traffic that bad? Does Jack make you feel special by granting you a phone interview?

      • Adam on April 3, 2012 at 17:16

        How much of his pseudo science have you actually read? Or are you going by the bits pulled out by the PH folks?

        Re: Certain death after 4 hours in freezing water- have you seen the Wim Hof Tedx presentation? Monitored core and skin temp 2 hours submerged in ice. Skin temp got to near freezing with little to no core temp drop. Physiologically impossible? For the unadapted maybe – but for the adapted maybe not.

        Your condescending holier than thou attitude shines through like the rest of the hacks.

      • Skyler Tanner on April 3, 2012 at 17:50

        Oh Adam you’re adorable. An outlier does not make something true for a population at large…that’s why they’re called outliers.

        While people like Dr. Tony Cicoria can become zenith-level pianists after being struck my lightning, the rest of us are likely to end up with a great story or death. Citing Mr. Hof is not a credible argument.

      • Kamal Patel on April 3, 2012 at 18:01

        Personally, I try to model my health experiments around the exploits of David Blaine.

        After being buried alive for a couple days, holding my breath underwater for half an hour, and hanging upside down for a while, I can safely say that I’m adapted to some sort of insect-bat-worm Ancient Pathway.

      • Rose on April 3, 2012 at 18:26

        This will have to do for a “like” button, I guess. Kamal’s comment: LIKE LIKE LIKE

      • Richard Nikoley on April 4, 2012 at 08:03

        “After being buried alive for a couple days, holding my breath underwater for half an hour, and hanging upside down for a while, I can safely say that I’m adapted to some sort of insect-bat-worm Ancient Pathway.”

        Then you’re taking this all far too seriously, Kamal. Paleo, IF, and some sensible level of CT. Been doing it for years and it does the body good in my case. But no woo for me.

      • Adam on April 3, 2012 at 18:05

        No kidding ! You are as brilliant and condescending as the rest.

        My point is the good all knowing Dr. Harris said “physiologically impossible” that is an absolute statement. The point is one example makes that false. No one is infallable.

        As far as whether he is an outlier and if anyone else can adapt that can be tested. Wim trains others and whether you want to believe it or not others are testing as well including myself. Solid hour in 45f with nor core drop skin temps to 52F. Can I do two hours in ice – no fucking clue yet. The neighbors would probably be concerned though and my supply of ice is limited to a side by side :) Do I think it’s possible – based on how I have adapted so far – definitely possible.

      • Kamal Patel on April 3, 2012 at 18:24

        Okay, I get it. You don’t like jokes. If we’re sticking to the facts, there’s quite a few to be disputed.

        Melissa wrote a pretty good post about the evolutionary aspect. I’ve only read about a couple things. One is Zeltiq, aka cryoliposuction. Kruse has repeatedly said that ice baths use the same mechanism as Zeltiq to essentially destroy adipose cells and make them leak leptin. This is wrong. Zeltiq destroys cell membranes. Extreme cold leads to cell necrosis and lysis. Cell lysis ends up with cell fragments being carried away over several months. I’m no expert on this, and my facts might be a bit off. But I’m absolutely certain that Jack overapplied this analogy. Ask your local plastic surgeon, who could present a far better analysis that I.

      • Adam on April 3, 2012 at 18:45

        Hi Kamal,

        I read Melissa’s post and it doesn’t appear she has read all of his theory as he is not arguing we evolved from cold adapted monkeys. He is looking further back.

        I agree the mechanism of Zeltiq are not the same as the CT as he prescribes. However most of his CT series lays out the mechanisms he theorizes for the less intense CT and they are signaling and hormonal responses. I think he drags Zeltiq into it because they both use cold – IMHO it just clouds the picture.

        I do not pretend everything he has written is perfect or tue – but reading carefully and looking up how the neurological, chemical, and hormonal systems he describes there do seem to be plausible nuggets in there. It is a chore sometimes to read though.

      • Leigh on April 3, 2012 at 18:53

        I don’t recall him saying cold baths remove fat the same way Zeltiq does. I think he used it as just one of many examples that cold affects us in some fairly unpredictable ways.

      • Kamal Patel on April 3, 2012 at 19:00

        Okay, rational discussion! I’ll let Melissa address the evolutionary aspects, as I’m not equipped to do so. But some other stuff, I can speak to.

        Kruse has nuggets of truth for sure. But you can never be sure what is truth, what is opinion, and what is completely false. Anybody who types fast, has an MD, and wants to become well known can do similar things. I was curious about the Zeltiq direct analogy, so I called Sean Croxton’s show to ask Kruse about it. He stuck to his guns and said it is the exact same mechanism. Not true! As he says, Zeltiq was invented up here in Boston as Mass General Hospital. Read the papers behind Zeltiq and note how cell lysis occurs only at very low temperatures, that you would not reach with an ice bath.

        Not only that, but he repeatedly brings up Michael Phelps, who is not at all cold-adapted, swimming in temperatures only a few degrees lower than a YMCA swimming pool.

        There is no point to attempting to verify all of Kruse’s logic, claims, or facts. There are so many out there that it would be a full-time job. And if you ask anything at all that is critical, you end up getting blasted by either Kruse or someone defending him. Somehow, Kruse is able to make ad hominem attacks, but ad hominem attacks against him are so very very mean.

        I don’t hate the guy. I’d love to chat with him. He’d have much to tell me that I have no idea of, as he is a neurosurgeon who loves to read an theorize. But you can’t just go around making shit up. I got that line from a movie, but I can’t remember what movie it is because the paleosphere is so clogged with Jack Kruse ramblings. And publicity does not correlate perfectly with truth and knowledge. If that was the case, Kim Kardashian would be giving the keynote speech at AHS 2012.

      • Adam on April 3, 2012 at 19:52

        Yes rational is good. I think where he has run into trouble is trying to cite current examples of his CT theory that are either poor or only follow part of his theory that people can relate to. To me it is a theory and I would not expect “current” examples. This where the stretching comes in everyone
        has been waving about (phelps as you point out).

        If you read his CT series he lays out very specific mechanisms (which admittedly are different than Zeltiq) but does citing poor examples invalidate the step by step theory? Also detailed in one of these or in the comments is that CT does not need to be utltra cold – but can be a combination of varying delta T and cumulative time. So even if Phelps used a warmer pool but was in it more it could fit (I have no clue what temp he actually swims in – seen anywhere from 50-70).

        Kim may draw a good crowd at AHS though!

      • Melissa on April 3, 2012 at 20:49

        I never said that he said we were evolved from cold-adapted monkeys. I specifically addressed his epigenetic relics billions of years of cold and early polar mammals. None of you came to my blog post to offer up counter-evidence!

      • Adam on April 4, 2012 at 03:32

        “None of you came to my blog post to offer up counter evidence!”

        What is the use? It is obvious you haven’t actually taken the time to read his work.

        Also regarding your repeated argument “that there are no papers”!!! What kind of technology would we have if we relied on papers for the next theory….clearly just an academic thought process.

      • Melissa McEwen on April 4, 2012 at 12:22

        If you are founding your theory on facts, you will need to back those facts up with things like papers. If you can’t, your whole theory falls apart.

      • Adam on April 4, 2012 at 14:32

        “f you are founding your theory on facts, you will need to back those facts up with things like papers. If you can’t, your whole theory falls apart.”

        Lol. How do you propose we advance any theory or science if it always has to be already documented? Where would new ideas come from, no more hypotheses to test? Cites are great for research papers in academia – but a hypothesis they do not necessarily prove.

        The scientific method does not require that your idea must have been documented by someone else in “papers”. At the core you hypothesize and test your hypothesis in a controlled manor that is all that is required to start.

        Others papers and work may be a factor in generating your hypothesis and point you in a direction – but if we followed your circular logic we wouldn’t have any breakthrough science or theories…..

        This is the problem with academia no common sense. Same thought process that bought the lipid hypothesis – that was well documented in papers so it must have been true eh?

      • Evelyn aka CarbSane on April 4, 2012 at 15:34

        You’ve seen claims of 50 – 70. Now realize that training facilities, heated indoor pools, certainly those available to him before he earned fame and fortune are kept upwards of 75 degrees.

      • Adam on April 4, 2012 at 16:16

        Hi Evelyn,

        The point I was making that it is a poor example of what he outlines as CT and the mechanisms he theorizes. To me it is just poo for the monkeys to fling that have not read further.

      • Evelyn aka CarbSane on April 5, 2012 at 03:52

        I’ve read further Adam. You can do better than “you have to read every last word” for Jack. His claims about Phelps indicate his penchant for tall tales and exaggeration.

        There are some very legit uses and benefits for cold therapy. Jack’s claims, not so much.

      • Adam on April 5, 2012 at 05:45

        Hi Evelyn,

        The same point I made to Kamal – yes his real life examples are stretches/exaggerations. Read the last post again – they do him no good.

        The reading is the mechanisms he proposes not the poor examples everyone is flinging about. Do you have to read every single word of his to deal with that – no. But at least read the CT series which lays out his theories……

        So far the intellectual argument from the critics is “OMG MRSA” and throwing around Michael Phelps water temp. At least dissect his theories and not the poor examples as well as an over the top self-experiment.

        I just realized I might have inadvertently called you a poo flinging monkey in the last post as I re-read it. May or may not have been intentional ;)

      • Evelyn aka CarbSane on April 5, 2012 at 09:22

        He has the mechanisms wrong. Jack doesn’t seem to know the difference between a cold blooded and warm blooded animal. Don’t get me started on his understanding of quantum phenomenon. His applications of CT are at cross purposes as well. In addition to BAT, cold adapted mammals, especially those that live in the water, have lots and lots of subcutaneous fat for insulation from the cold so their BAT doesn’t have to work overtime just to keep them from turning to ice cubes and dying.

        I’ve written several posts on Jack’s “theories”. Perhaps you should read where I’m coming from before unintentionally calling me a poo flinging monkey. ;-)

        http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2012/02/live-blogging-from-paleo-summit-iii.html (<- this one was right before he revealed the Holy Trinity post)

        Also, OMG MRSA is not, or shouldn't be, considered an "intellectual argument" — it should be common sense. What next, inject HIV? An ordinary staph infection is serious business enough and for anyone to take a cavalier attitude to even intentionally rubbing MRSA on uncut skin is troubling. My Mom contracted an ordinary staph infection when she had knee replacement a year ago. It's been one hell of a year. Hospitalization for IV antibiotics and several courses of oral AB's knocked it down but didn't stop it from getting into the bone. Implant removed and 3 months of daily IV AB's to eradicate it. She just received her new implant recently. So it's really rather sickening to me that anyone would brush off this little MRSA injection stunt (lie?) lightly.

      • Adam on April 5, 2012 at 10:04

        Hi Evelyn,

        I do not condone or see the benefit of the MRSA stunt (lie) – nor do I think MRSA is a joke. Stupid/insane/dangerous/ whatever folks want to call it seems reasonable to me. Also fodder for critics.

        Neither am I brushing it off – I am focused on the theories and with the MRSA stunt however he is not recommending anyone inject themselves with it or anything else. It is a distraction if people want to argue over the theories.

        Maybe I’m cold but I don’t see the relevance of a publicity stunt to the merits of a theory. I’m not into arguing whether he is sane or not as I am not sure yet!

      • Evelyn aka CarbSane on April 5, 2012 at 11:18

        He claims he’s cultured MRSA and has used it with his patients in his clinic. That is something I don’t understand anyone defending him for here.

        I think there’s a tipping point with everyone, if this MRSA stuff isn’t it, I guess some are hopelessly (desperately?) gullible. My tipping point on his theories came long ago. He had a post on how Mg deficiency precedes IR every time. I asked for one citation. He sent me to “any biochem book”, where of course one will not find such a statement. Rather than giving me a page number he then sent me to PaleoHacks. One other person gave me a list of 5 or 6 PubMed articles showing a relationship between IR and Mg — something I never challenged — still no love.

        So at some point, someone has made enough whacked claims that they render themselves uncredible for anything that comes out of their mouths. Which is not to say that Jack might not be right about some things, it’s to say “so what”, I’ll get my information from more reliable sources that don’t force me to spend hours wading through unintelligible mumbo jumbo trying to sort out and verify the good stuff.

        As others have mentioned, where he is right, he is hardly the first one to suggest things — and now folks are hailing Jack as the inventor of cold therapy or something. But also, where he is right, he has failed miserably to provide a cogent mechanism by which his novel therapies supposedly work.

        You know what you get if LR Protocol doesn’t work for you? Simple! You weren’t LR to begin with!

      • Adam on April 5, 2012 at 11:49

        “He claims he’s cultured MRSA and has used it with his patients in his clinic. That is something I don’t understand anyone defending him for here. ”

        That is a very strong claim and I would like to see your source here. I hope you have one as that specific claim could be damaging/lible in the context of saying a physician is doing this to patients rather than himself.

        Everything I have read is he has used Cold Therapy with his patients not MRSA. Why would he – he has claimed no magical benefit to MRSA even to himself other than to prove his immunity and get publicity.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 5, 2012 at 11:57

        “He claims he’s cultured MRSA and has used it with his patients in his clinic. That is something I don’t understand anyone defending him for here.”

        Now wait a second. All I’ve seen is he says he used it on himself. Can you cite where he said that? If so, that needs to be on the record here.

      • Leigh on April 5, 2012 at 12:03

        No, no, no, that is a total misunderstanding. He claims to have used MRSA and cold on himself, and uses COLD on his patients. It would make no sense whatsoever, even in the midst of his alleged mental breakdown, to use MRSA on patients.

        That was an experiment to prove the extent of cold’s power so he could then go on to use cold to help patients who already have surgery & infections that need treating.

      • Evelyn aka CarbSane on April 5, 2012 at 12:27

        Richard — Is your sole motive to generate lots of comments here that you don’t even bother to read them??


        Kamal posted that from Jack’s FB page.

        “I go the MRSA from a family member and cultured it out…I have used this to help patients in my clinic and OR within three weeks of performing this bio hack.”

        No, no, no Leigh??? You read that too, no? Why yes you did because you challenged Kamal on it: “Wow. Unless he posted that in a public forum, that’s pretty unethical for you to put it here.”

        Sigh :(

      • Leigh on April 5, 2012 at 12:29

        No, that, too, is a misunderstanding. I was challenging him on posting that Kruse said Harris had no balls & the palsy.

        I can see where it gets confusing, though, because when I hit Reply under a post that has already been indented a lot, it often goes under the last post of that particular thread, instead. Blog software issue.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 5, 2012 at 12:56

        “Richard — Is your sole motive to generate lots of comments here that you don’t even bother to read them??”

        I read every comment. About 600 on this thread so far. In addition, dozens of comments came through on other posts I went through this morning.

        Anyway, you didn’t exactly cite the quote, did you. instead, you stated it in a way that to me, removes any potential ambiguity from the quote.

        “He claims he’s cultured MRSA and has used it with his patients in his clinic.”

        At any rate, this obviously needs clarification, which someone with access to the FB page ought to ask.

      • Adam on April 5, 2012 at 13:14

        “I go the MRSA from a family member and cultured it out…I have used this to help patients in my clinic and OR within three weeks of performing this bio hack.”

        He is obviously answering a question on his super secret MRSA source.

        “this” refers to the CT i.e. he started using cold therapy in the operating room within three weeks after surviving the biohack.

      • Leigh on April 5, 2012 at 13:21

        Exactly. Remember, we’re reading Kruse-type here. In this language, pronouns don’t necessarily refer to the direct object of the sentence preceding the ellipses.

        Use the context of everything else he’s said about this experiment. He underwent surgery & MRSA on Jan 9, recovered with cold, and three weeks later, used the cold to help another patient (undergoing needed surgery) recover with cold.

      • Evelyn aka CarbSane on April 5, 2012 at 14:03

        I clarified above that this does seem to be two things — CT for deliberate MRSA and post-op pain in himself, and both CT to treat MRSA and CT to treat pain in his clinic.

        The former seems to this — not involved in the medical profession in any way — person as outside standards of care at a minimum.

      • Jscott on April 5, 2012 at 16:31

        What is the meaning of “this”

        So clintonesque and oh_so_fitting within the thread using two big C-words.

        It would be great to see something more exacting. I took “this” to mean that Jack uses the results of his experiment to help patients with their immune issues via CT.

        I take this to be accurate taking into account his lack of clarity in writing. Direct objects, sentence structure, and editing do not seem to be strong suits.

        Then again, I like to make my writing disjointed. It makes me feel smart.

        There are questions to be answered for sure.

      • Evelyn aka CarbSane on April 6, 2012 at 11:00

        Sorry my formatting was so distracting, that was unintended. I was saying “this person” meaning me and the stuff between the dashes was to say that I’m not a medical professional. I wasn’t trying for disjointed but apparently I succeeded ;)

      • Skyler Tanner on April 3, 2012 at 18:57

        Hof may very well be the perfect storm of genetics for this sort of thing and a lifetime of interested training in what he has perfected. The problem with the notion that he can “teach” this to anyone is the assumption that everything he does is force of will or tricks of concentration. There is no doubt these are major players but he had the genetic capacity to achieve it in the first place. It’s what we say in athletics: the best are those with the best genetics and the best training.

        It’s the joke that the onion made recently: “Worlds best violin player dies at 92 having never played.” Most people are not lucky enough to stumble onto what the genetic hand has deemed them favorable at. Mr. Hof is an amazing specimen but it is incorrect to think that because he could do what he can do means that with him training you that you can do exactly as he can do.

        I assume much: what are you hoping to get out of such training?

      • Adam on April 3, 2012 at 19:35

        Hi Skyler,

        I agree just because he trains others – does not mean they can do the same. I don’t think I said it did. But others may be able to – time and testing could tell.

        What am I hoping to get? Right now it is a curiosity and physical challenge. I
        have also come to enjoy the cold soaks at the end of the day. After losing 17 5 lbs seeing what else my body is capable of interests me.

      • Skyler Tanner on April 4, 2012 at 13:01

        Curiosity never killed anyone…wait that’s not entirely true! :)

        Perhaps its the bombastic personality and, what sounds to me, like overstatements of what such treatments could truly do. Then again I’m nose-deep in graduate science where “may,” “research shows,” and “further research is warranted” are how I have to write and think about these things!

      • Adam on April 4, 2012 at 14:40

        Hi Skyler,

        I haven’t done a research paper in over 10 years – I do not miss it!

        Weight loss is a hobby for me it seems – in my day job I use DOE’s and statistical tools to analyze and optimize manufacturing processes. That I like – design the experiment, get results, analyze, optimize, and confirm. Immediate gratification and I can see the results physically. So much more concrete than the health world.

        As an engineer everything is a process – but the number of variables involved in a body are mind numbing. I’m sticking with my day job and some one or two variable n=1 experiments with cold and diet as long as it works for me :)

      • Skyler Tanner on April 5, 2012 at 06:23

        Excellent. I would only warn, which is something I mentioned a few of Richard’s blog posts ago, is that much of what we see when you introduce something new (say CT) is the response to the change, not always the change itself. You see this a lot in diet studies where the blood lipids make huge strides but it is because the diet has changed, often radically, and it’s reflected in changing numbers. Later after adaptation things regress to the mean and another adjustment has to be made.

        The much adieu sounds exactly like when everyone went low carb paleo: “HERE IS THE ANSWER! I FEEL AMAZING! YAY!” That might have been true in the very short term but after a period of time adjustments have to be made, doses changed, etc.

        All of this is a long version of saying: I’ve been in this game a long time and people like to fool themselves with the “One True Secret.” There is not magic pill, or treatment, that works for everyone all of the time. And when someone states very loudly with huge bravado, my knee-jerk is to push back hard because to comes across like advertising for a “magic” supplement. And really that’s what CT is: a supplement for when all of your other ducks are in a row. I doubt as many peoples ducks are in a row as they’d like to believe; we are dazzled by novelty and, to the vast majority of the Paleo community, this is the newest most novel thing around.

        You have numbers and are an engineer so this means you’re perhaps less dazzled by novelty but I work with engineers in my studio all the time and they need to be reminded of the the same as anyone else. :)

      • Adam on April 5, 2012 at 07:54

        Hi Skyler,

        Believe me after losing weight and trying to improve my health over the last three years – I do not believe in any magic pills, easter bunnies, or miracle cures.

        Some pounds came of easier or faster than others – but the whole process has been deliberate. IF, ADF, macro changes, calorie changes, activity changes, I have done small n=1’s with all of these to get where I am at keeping some and discarding others.

        Right now I find myself still progressing (and feeling phenomenal) with the following (some of these have been core for a while and obviously CT is new as well meal & light timing) I make no predictions on whether these are good or even helpful for others, factually proven, sane or insane, etc…:

        – Overall low/keto paleo diet
        – BAB (largeish high protein breakfast)
        – No Calorie Counting (I know the other factors have helped me self regulate this – checking with an app periodically)
        – IF to dinner at sunset
        – No snacking
        – CT exposure as daily as time allows – 20 min shower @ 50F AM , 60 minute soak at 45F (which I worked up to)
        – Blue blockers at night after sunset
        – Two 20 minute BW sessions a week Pull ups, Push-Ups, Dips, Suspension Work, Chin Ups, Bridge Progression, etc..

        Although Dr.Kruse comes off as out there and apparently insane to others – I don’t think the above is insanely crazy and is basically what he is reccomending when you boil downs all of his ramblings.

        Also please note the lack of MRSA exposure and med free surgery in my current repertoire :)

        I however can still be dazzled and mesmerized with any sort of electronic Gizmo ;)

      • Jordi on April 3, 2012 at 17:29

        This blog needs a Like button.

        “People at large seem to be almost irredeemably stupid, and the whole Kruse phenomenon could not be a better illustration of this.” is the quote of the century !

      • Meredith on April 3, 2012 at 17:46

        I support your statement that the comments on this blog need a “like” button.

      • mallory on April 3, 2012 at 18:24

        agreed, plus a million for that comment hahahhha

      • Katherine on April 3, 2012 at 18:34

        Yes, best comment ever.

      • Kamal Patel on April 3, 2012 at 18:08

        Jack Kruse on Kurt Harris:

        “”i liked one comment made from a ‘health guy’ who knows nothing about MRSA. Hard to know it when you sit in a dark room all day looking a computer. Should stick to reading papers that help no one get better…Question everything and everyone. No one knows it all. I like thinkers and doer’s…….not mental masturbators.”

      • Emily Deans on April 3, 2012 at 18:21

        1 out of 1 Nashville neurosurgeons surveyed think self-injecting with MRSA is Totally Epic, Dude.

      • Kamal Patel on April 3, 2012 at 18:28

        If nothing else, he sets a good example for prudent self-experimentation.

        Hold on…maybe not? Must think harder about this. But must not become a mental masturbator who helps no one get better! So confused.

      • Emily Deans on April 3, 2012 at 18:32

        Leave the thinking to the Discoverer of the Holy Trinity.

      • Kamal Patel on April 3, 2012 at 19:22

        My evil informant has fed me more views of Kurt Harris from Jack Kruse. You can’t say Kruse doesn’t have balls:

        “I love Harris……dude sits in a dark room all day and has not touched a patient since med school and thinks he knows anything about what did or did not happen that day. You can’t get in trouble for any of this when you are the patient!!!! What a maroon…

        I go the MRSA from a family member and cultured it out…I have used this to help patients in my clinic and OR within three weeks of performing this bio hack. Jealousy…….that is his response because he has no balls. That is why happens when you read articles and stop thinking. The dude has six neurons in his head a 5 are infected with spirochetes!

        It so obvious he hates me…Stop reading papers and being a blog commenter and get in the game. Reminds me of Top Gun at the end……..dude is MIA, Its time him and the other paleo MD’s step up their games.

      • Leigh on April 3, 2012 at 19:29

        Wow. Unless he posted that in a public forum, that’s pretty unethical for you to put it here. I’ve seen him say similar things on his forum anonymously tonight, but he didn’t name any names, and until you named the name yourself, I didn’t know who he was talking about.

        I hope, for your sake, you got that from a public forum. Either way, it’s the same stupid kindergarten crap Harris is currently spewing, just in different words with more ellipses. I had a lot of respect for him before I saw this silly bar brawl.

      • Chloe on April 3, 2012 at 19:34

        Leigh, Dr. Kruse posted that on his public Facebook page, so I’m not sure how it’s unethical for Kamal to repost it. Unfortunately, what you see above is standard Jack Kruse nonsense. In my opinion, he’s far more immature–and far less lucid–than any of his critics.

      • Kamal Patel on April 3, 2012 at 19:37

        Easy there! It’s from Facebook, which I believe anyone with an internet connection can see.

        And my evil informant isn’t evil at all. She’s very nice and will bake you yummy treats if you ask her nicely. She also fosters sick kittens on a regular basis. (no joke)

      • Leigh on April 3, 2012 at 19:39

        That’s why I said, “Unless.” Thank you for answering the question.

        I agree, his kindergarten playground fighting is less lucid than the kindergarten playground fighting of his critics.

      • Leigh on April 3, 2012 at 19:40

        I would mention I haven’t seen anything of the sort on FB, either, which is why I said what I did in the first post.

      • Chloe on April 3, 2012 at 19:48

        Leigh, maybe Jack saved his worst behavior for Paleohacks? He acts like he was pilloried on that site, but in fact, he was dishing it out the attacks as often as he was taking them. And frankly, the reason he was critiqued so harshly was not because of his typos and grammatical errors (at least he acknowledges he’s a terrible writer!), but because he was routinely posting misinformation and exaggerations and failing to acknowledge them.

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 3, 2012 at 19:51

        Fuck him for calling me a “paleo MD”!

        Man., that really burns!

        I better duck out of this before I get my feelings hurt.

      • Kamal Patel on April 3, 2012 at 19:52

        I wish Ricky Gervais was paleo. It would spice up the all-too-predictable playground fighting methods on forums these days. Screw fact-checking, give us more memorable one-liners!

      • Leigh on April 3, 2012 at 19:52

        Oh wait, I forgot he has two FB pages. Bad me.

        I’d prefer everyone act like adults and treat each other nicely all the time, but I don’t get my way with that one much.

      • Sean on April 3, 2012 at 19:56

        “Reminds me of Top Gun at the end……..dude is MIA, Its time him and the other paleo MD’s step up their games.”

        So Kruse self-identifies as Tom Cruise from a cheesy 80s flick with tons of homoerotic undertones and thinks those who disagree with him need to ‘step up their game’? But first they need to get in the game. And to do that you have to have balls, oh and start thinking.

        Yeah, I’ll definitely give him a miss.

      • Leigh on April 3, 2012 at 20:01

        And now to fill in what was left out of the comment.

        On Kurt Harris: “It so obvious he hates me. Ironically, I like that. I still like him because we need him in the paleo world to start helping patients and get in the game to help people. There are millions out there that need MD’s help”

        That’s the context of the “in the dark” and the “Top Gun” comments – he’d rather see someone whom he views as mostly right get out of the lab and into helping patients directly.

      • Chloe on April 3, 2012 at 20:37

        Ah, so it was a Kruse-style compliment? He often talks about wanting to spread his ideas to other doctors, but I have a feeling he’s not going to get very far. “The dude has 6 neurons in his head” . . . really, Jack? Is that how you’re going to recruit talent to your team? Good luck.

      • Leigh on April 4, 2012 at 07:30

        LOL I have official confirmation that he did not call Harris a “moron,” but actually a “maroon.” As in, one who could be combining his paleo knowledge with MD practice, but instead, is doing both separately, instead of being a doctor enlightening his SAD patients.


      • Chloe on April 4, 2012 at 09:41

        That seems like an awfully non-standard definition of “maroon.”

      • Leigh on April 4, 2012 at 13:46

        And, apparently, from reading on his forum, a silly reference to a Looney Tunes cartoon. YouTube it.

      • Leigh on April 4, 2012 at 13:50

        This really illustrates the difficulty in reading his writings. When you think he means one thing (that’s obviously false or stupid or rude or backward or plagiarized or whatever), there’s a lot of info he’s leaving out, mostly because of, apparently, the time that it takes to type things out fully.

        I can fully understand why few top paleo folks who are already satisfied with their regimens are willing to go through the process of connecting this blog post with that comment with that forum thread and then asking the questions to get behind what he really means. But I’ve seen it happen many times (my interest in following what he says closely is that before I had any idea who he was or his personality, his protocols put an immediate end to cravings that had plagued me for over a decade) – usually the things that tick off the paleo peeps most are really just not getting what he really intended to say.

        This is, obviously, HIS fault, not theirs . But to go on and attack his work every chance you get when you haven’t really understood his work is pretty odd. I get not putting the time into reading him fully, and asking the follow-up questions. I do not getting putting so much time and mental energy into attacking him if you don’t put the time into figuring out if your portrayal of him and his positions is correct.

      • Carly on April 4, 2012 at 14:47

        Kruse = David Brent

      • Kamal Patel on April 4, 2012 at 18:17

        “People see me, and they see the suit, and they go: “you’re not fooling anyone”, they know I’m rock and roll through and through. But you know that old thing, live fast, die young? Not my way. Live fast, sure, live too bloody fast sometimes, but die young? Die old. That’s the way- not orthodox, I don’t live by “the rules” you know.”

        –David Brent

      • C2U on April 7, 2012 at 04:07

        Because everyone knows paleo man had track marks.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 4, 2012 at 08:13

        I doubt that he thinks it’s Totally Epic for anyone but himself in that single situation, a self experiment Nader the controlled conditions of an OR. But perhaps someone can come up with a quote where he advised everyone to do it on a whm or something.

      • Evelyn aka CarbSane on April 5, 2012 at 04:02

        “controlled conditions of the OR”

        Despite meticulously controlled conditions, folks unfortunately still contract diseases in the OR every day.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 5, 2012 at 08:14

        “Despite meticulously controlled conditions, folks unfortunately still contract diseases in the OR every day.”

        Right. So curious then that there’s no report of any such problem in Jack’s case. Get it?

      • Evelyn aka CarbSane on April 5, 2012 at 09:55

        I don’t “get it” because I don’t believe he injected MRSA. If he did, it’s not impossible that the infection didn’t take hold or that he didn’t spread it to others, but it could happen. For my Mom’s second knee replacement surgery (different hospital than the first) we were told that they keep their OR cold and she was going to be covered with an inflatable blanket like thing that kept her warm.

        I’m waiting for the documentation of this bio hack. Surely something so monumental was carefully documented so that it could be used to help others, right?

      • Emily Deans on April 5, 2012 at 13:53

        I’ve seen gloves ripped in the OR all the time. Surgeons sign up for the risk. They don’t sign up for other surgeons lying to them and contaminating themselves before surgery. If that is hand-wringing, so be it. And the documentation is a sticking point for me. If this is a fabulous n=1 experiment of great risk and a turning point in the history of medicine, then where are the records? A phone call to a blogger and a TED talk months later? Why not do it like Hof did it, with video and controlled conditions. Instead he doesn’t even inform his family and has them whip out the cold tub on the bed as tears are running down his face later in the afternoon? NONE OF IT MAKES ANY SENSE.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 5, 2012 at 13:59

        “They don’t sign up for other surgeons lying to them and contaminating themselves before surgery.”

        I may have missed something to the contrary, but I don’t recall seeing anywhere that he explicitly didn’t tell the OR team he’s self infected. Or whether the surgeon knew but not the rest, or whatever.


        It does in at least one respect, which is that if Jack is intentionally withholding information in order to be ambiguous—or even purposefully misleading—in order to have happen exactly what’s happening with all the speculation over actual wrongdoing, only later to reveal that all necessary disclosures and waivers were on file.

        Of course, if that were the case he’d face a whole other line of criticism, but it would be of a far different character.

      • Emily Deans on April 7, 2012 at 12:41

        I cannot IMAGINE this surgery taking place with the “necessary disclosures and waivers” on file. In anywhere near an academic medical center, you would need an IRB approval. NO WAY.

      • Sean on April 3, 2012 at 18:36

        I don’t know much about Kruse, but statements like this are why I’ll continue to give him a miss. Did he high-five the monitor after he wrote that?

        Also, in my experience people with a deep understanding of the subject are much more lucid on it. This is not a hard and fast rule, of course, and I’ve known some very notable exceptions, but in general it is true. Kurt’s writing is very lucid, Kruse’s is apparently the opposite.

        Still, I don’t have a problem with Kruse presenting at major ancestral health symposiums if the guy is popular. Pseudo-science or not, I think a plurality of opinions is healthy and necessary for the youngish state that evo-health is in, and people ought to be able to decide for themselves who is full of shit.

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 3, 2012 at 19:47

        HA HA

        I wear this quack’s contempt like a fucking badge, I promise you. : )

        It sounds like his hospital is full-on “paleo” as well, as most radiologists have not read films in dark rooms in a decade, having moved to the digital age.

        Maybe someone can buy Jack a 64K Tandy down at the thrift shop and set it up for him.

        And then teach him some microbiology so he doesn’t sound so stupid when he makes things up next time.

      • Jonathan on April 4, 2012 at 11:41

        We are all digital at my hospital but the computers are still setup up in dark rooms. I’m guessing it helps with contrast since they are using extremely expensive black and white monitors.

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 4, 2012 at 16:50

        I didn’t even address the fact that I have done thousands of invasive procedures in my career, including embolizing brain tumors at the request of NEUROSURGEONS. Jack claims this can be done without speaking to or touching patients, which makes me wonder what kind of practice he has exactly.

        I would be very leery of a neurosurgeon whose public statement make it sound like he does not work with interventional neuroradiologists routinely. For one thing, you might end up with a big hole in your skull when you could have had your aneurysm treated with a GDC coil non-invasively.

        Coiling aneurysms is a procedure that has been around for about 20 years that is the standard of care for many brain aneurysms, that was pioneered by neuroradiologists.
        I would expect a competent neurosurgeon to know something like that.

      • VW on April 4, 2012 at 18:27

        Any nominations for Neurosurgeon Most Likely to Perform an Unscheduled Trepanning?

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 3, 2012 at 22:33

        I suppose Kruse thinks Monica Hughes the PhD microbiologist who agrees with everything I said about MRSA also knows nothing about MRSA. Part of this whole paradigm shattering thing is the more you actually know, the less your opinion means, I guess.

        Doer’s and Sherpa’s…..

      • Whitney on April 4, 2012 at 08:19

        I fucking LOVE this!

      • Whitney on April 4, 2012 at 08:21


      • Katherine on April 3, 2012 at 18:32

        “People at large seem to be almost irredeemably stupid” Seriously.

        Kamal, Kurt, Melissa, Em, Victoria: awesome.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 3, 2012 at 18:34

        Hey Kurt.

        Thanks for dropping by, as always.

        Oh, to answer two specific questions: blog has been at record high traffic for two months in spite of Victory Belt publishing anyone who can write. Secondly, Jack contacted me, and in spite of my blog persona, I do love to engage with people.

        I’m not sure why you appear so perturbed that I simply gave this an open, uncloisted, unmoderated forum. I have no fear of it, not even the hand wringing over the staph stuff. But it’s what everyone’s going red herring fishing for, I guess.

      • Emily Deans on April 3, 2012 at 18:42

        You realize the character Alec Baldwin plays in “Malice” is a substance-abusing psychopath, correct?

      • Sean on April 3, 2012 at 19:07

        Pffft, I have it on good authority that all ivy league doctors are substance-abusing psychopaths.

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 3, 2012 at 20:12

        Reminds me of Scarface becoming a touchstone for gangster rap fans. WTF?

      • Richard Nikoley on April 3, 2012 at 20:17

        Nice non sequitur, Emily.


      • Emily Deans on April 4, 2012 at 17:51

        Did you not mention the herring? Meta.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 4, 2012 at 18:44

        “Did you not mention the herring? Meta.”

        Sure, but when, where and why?

        The Baldwin clip was intended as consumption for the most clever who could take it both ways. I.e., he has a god complex and that’s cool, or, or, he has a God complex.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 3, 2012 at 20:19

        Oh, and Emily, I guess Harvard doesn’t teach one, or wherever Kurt went to school, how to view that video on both sides of the fence, eh?

      • Erika on April 3, 2012 at 21:43

        “And next week, on ‘Paleo Eats Their Own’…” :)

      • Emily Deans on April 5, 2012 at 13:54

        it wasn’t film school.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 5, 2012 at 14:09

        Laf. Good one.

        I don’t think one needs film school, however, to see how that video can be used by both those who love or hate Jack.

        I picked it very carefully exactly for that reason.

      • Emily Deans on April 7, 2012 at 12:44

        There’s no two sides, really, about that character. He is irredeemable, in the end.

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 3, 2012 at 20:08

        Well if you want your this forum to be a neutral staging ground for fraudulent or dangerous crap without taking 15 minutes to research some of the claims, it’s your blog.

        But ultimately I view your post as the health blog equivalent of buying clown paintings by John Wayne Gacy.

        It’s all very postmodern and ironic and clever to joke about infectious diseases that kill people I suppose.

      • Mark on April 3, 2012 at 22:23

        At least he posts more than twice a year.

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 3, 2012 at 22:37

        No, I only post once a year at most. Where is your free blog? Get to work, Mark!

      • Mark on April 3, 2012 at 22:47

        My free blog is newswallop.com. But it’s about as active as archevore and nowhere near as good.

        At least I got your attention. Hopefully I can piss you off enough to make you post something new at your blog, because I do actually love your blog and it’s been one of the most enlightening things I’ve read, along with FTA.

      • Mark on April 3, 2012 at 22:49

        I mean really, if you spent as much time writing new blog posts as you did debunking Kruse here at FTA, or lurking intermittently on PaleoHacks…..

      • Bill Strahan on April 4, 2012 at 08:14

        Kurt, I sure do miss your more frequent posts! I learned so much when you were rolling them out frequently.

        I can see why this type of conversation might make one want to post less, but I sure hope that when you have something interesting that you’ve learned or experimented with that you will blog about it.

        Ditto for Peter at Hyper Lipid. If I could vote for the blogs I’d like to see more posts on, yours and his would be #1 and #2.

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 4, 2012 at 09:23

        I think you are way overestimating how slowly I think and how slowly I type. I promise I don’t lurk on paleohacks, ever. Others start threads there based on my comments. Sometimes I read them, as you might if anyone did the same with your comments or blog posts. You certainly haven’t pissed me off, but I do wonder why you are so concerned for my time management if you haven’t personally beed taken in my Kruse.

      • Mark on April 4, 2012 at 10:54

        I’m just poking fun at you in an (attempted) humorously way. Perhaps fail. I’m not overly concerned with your time management.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 4, 2012 at 11:01

        I am. I rang up Kurt last night after a late dinner, not realizing he’s 2 hours ahead.

        He picked right up. :)

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 4, 2012 at 16:53

        I chuckled you just couldn’t hear it…

      • Mark on April 4, 2012 at 18:10

        Wait a minute! Are you accusing me of being taken in by Kruse because I joked about your time management skills? That part I don’t get.

        But I will confess to turning the heat down in my shower and eating some high protein breakfasts. The MRSA and quantum psychokinetics re-energizing my dormant neural pathways will have to wait though.

      • Dana on April 3, 2012 at 19:16

        Dr. Harris, I admire a lot of what you’ve written but you need to put forth just a little bit more effort here. It is possible for a person to be right about some things and wrong about others. If you are going to claim that nothing Dr. Kruse says is right, we’re going to need a bit more evidence than that you think we are all stupid. Thanks in advance.

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 3, 2012 at 20:29

        I share with Richard the conceit that I am no one’s chattel, so I assure you there is nothing I “need” to do here for you or anyone else.

        I don’t recall saying that anyone, including Kruse, gets nothing right. He seems to think meat and butter and eggs are OK. I only take issue with the key claims on which his popularity is based.

        If you believe him on things like Phelps’ training regimen, even after doing your own fact checking, then it would be charitable to think you were a critical thinker of any kind, I would say.

        The idea that one must review and comment on the entire corpus of someone’s thought to pass judgment on their utility is just absurd.

        I tire of this argument, really. A blatant lie is exposed, and the response is always “you haven’t read it all” or “he is right about x” or worst of all, “you can’t comment because you haven’t devoted a month to reading everything written…”

        How many pages of a book do you read before deciding what language it is written in? How many pieces of bitter fruit does one bite into before deciding the whole bushel is not worth the effort?

        The same applies to other pop frauds who have a TOE and make things up a lot like Ray Peat. Pick a few essays at random. The first one you read claims AIDS is not caused by HIV, but is rather prevalent in Africa because the people there need their “hormones adjusted”……

        You’re done and life is short. Move on to something else.

        TOE = theory of everything

      • Brenda on April 3, 2012 at 21:14

        How many pages of a book do you read before deciding what language it is written in? How many pieces of bitter fruit does one bite into before deciding the whole bushel is not worth the effort?

        You seem to spend a lot of time on Dr. Kruse

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 3, 2012 at 22:40

        OK, I have not read him enough, or I spend a lot of time on him, which is it, brenda? You Krusers are so clever having it both ways.

      • Brenda on April 3, 2012 at 23:07

        I am just saying you say you don’t want to spend your time reading his stuff…but you spend a ton of time negating him….and most of it usually involves Phelp’s pool water temperature rather than any kind of fault science.

      • julia on April 4, 2012 at 01:05

        kurt, what jack is aiming to do is help people. he is not forcing anything on anyone. he doesnt want people to believe him outright, he wants them to question him, test it on themselves safely (with nothing to lose) and then comment. Perhaps you should give it a try before getting so heated, hey you have nothing to lose right?

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 4, 2012 at 09:28

        Believe what you want Brenda. Knock yourself out.

        You say I send too much time negating him, but then complain I only go after the lowest having fruit. So which is it? Waste more time reading his tripe or don’t spend so much?

        But fault science would be a good neologism for people like Kruse and Peat and MErcola, I admit that.

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 4, 2012 at 09:30

        You are suggesting I inject myself with staph aureus and swim in 50 F water and eating bananas is dangerous?

        And I would have nothing to lose by this? You are pulling my leg or you are an idiot like Kruse.

      • Brenda on April 4, 2012 at 10:09

        the y and the l don’t work well on my keyboard :(

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 4, 2012 at 16:54

        I still like “fault science” as it sounds catastrophic….

      • Danny Roddy on April 3, 2012 at 21:21

        Old-man-Peat probably cooked up that whole ‘AIDS is not caused by HIV’ nonsense right around the same time he was patenting the first orally absorbable form of progesterone.

      • Kamal Patel on April 3, 2012 at 21:49

        What the frack are you doing here Danny Roddy? Now I know how to lure you onto any given website. The Ray Peat bat signal! Since you’re here, wanna chime in on Kruse’s cold thermogenesis MRSA experiment? It’s a little crazier than lots of fruit and dairy.

      • Danny Roddy on April 3, 2012 at 22:14


        Nah, I don’t care about Kruse. I’m just here for the expletives.

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 3, 2012 at 22:46

        I’ve read that 3 times and I still can’t think what it could possibly mean, danny. It was cool back then when he wrote it, or inventing something useful means we forgive him for being totally wacko?

        The guy who perfected the electric chair is a holocaust denier.

        Richard – let’s get this sucker to 500 comments….. We have the Peat effect occurring now…

      • Danny Roddy on April 3, 2012 at 23:59

        @Dr. Harris, Peat aside, I’ve heard you recommend Kresser for people with long-standing issues, but Chris tackles some topics that I seriously doubt you find credible (zinc/copper imbalance, and pyroluria – http://chriskresser.com/rhr-could-copper-zinc-imbalance-be-making-you-sick).

        Zinc/copper imbalance and pyroluria were popularized by Dr. Carl Pfeiffer and are DEEP ROOTED in orthomolecular medicine.

        Pfeiffer’s ‘theory of everything’ was zinc/copper imbalance (more copper than zinc) and he was, you guessed it, totally insane.

        You claim that Barnes, Peat, and Selye all had shit for brains, but back Kresser? I don’t get it.

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 4, 2012 at 09:45

        Danny, you are actually starting to irritate me with this idiocy putting words in my mouth.

        Hans Selye has never once been mentioned by me, much less “dismissed”.

        Your unschooled fantasy synthesis of these thinkers is hardly anything Selye would have endorsed, I am pretty sure.

        Barnes was wrong that all heart disease is caused by hypothyroidism, Peat is a fraud or just deluded with his “hormones are everything and they are manipulated to our benefit via diet”. Stipulated.

        But trying to say that if there were one post of topic by my Friend Chris Kresser that I disagreed with, then I would think he had “shit for brains” makes you look foolish and is kind of insulting to both me and Chris.

        Go back to the hat metaphor. Put all of Chris’ posts in a hat, and if I drew 6 at random I would agree strongly with most of them. That’s probably about as good as it gets for concordance between two thinkers who are actually thinking. To imply there must be 100% concordance between anyone is just dumb, unless you are just being argumentative and like using a weak argument.

        Danny, if you were to just take the time to get an undergraduate degree in biology at a state university, all of this stuff you write would make you cringe. Seeing endocrinology in the context of biological systems as a whole, and then understanding genetics and evolutionary mechanisms would help a great deal. You could then see Peat as incoherent the way a musician with perfect pitch can hear a wrong note.

      • Danny Roddy on April 4, 2012 at 15:50

        “Danny, you are actually starting to irritate me with this idiocy putting words in my mouth.”

        I didn’t know it would upset you, just shooting the shit. No hard feelings.

        “Hans Selye has never once been mentioned by me, much less ‘dismissed’.”

        The ideas that Peat holds about stress, serotonin, and estrogen were birthed by Hans Selye. To disagree with Peat’s basic premise is to disagree with Selye IMO.

        “Your unschooled fantasy synthesis of these thinkers is hardly anything Selye would have endorsed, I am pretty sure.”

        Have you read Selye?

        “Barnes was wrong that all heart disease is caused by hypothyroidism, Peat is a fraud or just deluded with his “hormones are everything and they are manipulated to our benefit via diet”. Stipulated.”


        “But trying to say that if there were one post of topic by my Friend Chris Kresser that I disagreed with, then I would think he had “shit for brains” makes you look foolish and is kind of insulting to both me and Chris.”

        Oh gawd. I don’t think you or Chris has shit for brains.

        You dismissed Peat’s ideas within ten minutes of reading an article about AIDS that I never mentioned.

        I’m attempting to understand your orientation, which is hard— because I didn’t go to school.

        “Go back to the hat metaphor. Put all of Chris’ posts in a hat, and if I drew 6 at random I would agree strongly with most of them. That’s probably about as good as it gets for concordance between two thinkers who are actually thinking. To imply there must be 100% concordance between anyone is just dumb, unless you are just being argumentative and like using a weak argument.”

        Fair enough.

        “Danny, if you were to just take the time to get an undergraduate degree in biology at a state university, all of this stuff you write would make you cringe. Seeing endocrinology in the context of biological systems as a whole, and then understanding genetics and evolutionary mechanisms would help a great deal. You could then see Peat as incoherent the way a musician with perfect pitch can hear a wrong note.”

        Will do Dr. Harris.

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 4, 2012 at 17:06

        “To disagree with Peat’s basic premise is to disagree with Selye IMO.”

        Oh, come on. You can’t really believe that. I have read Selye of course. Selye would disown Peat’s TOE, in my opinion.

        I was sincere in my recommendation about schooling. You are obviously bright and would make a good biologist with the right training in the fundamentals. I’m not saying auto-didacticism is impossible, but few can do it without starting with the right basics. I would even venture to say the differences between many of the MDs you might read in the blogosphere have a lot to do with what undergraduate major they had.

        My undergrad courses in genetics, endocrinology, biochemistry, and esp. evolution were MUCH more rigorous than the same content I got in medical school. I would attribute more of my knowledge to this undergrad foundation and my own experience conducting and publishing both basis and clinical research, that to any medical school coursework. Of course practicing clinical medicine and reading literature for the past 25 years helps a lot too….

      • Edle on April 4, 2012 at 19:20

        (…) “get an undergraduate degree in biology at a state university” (…). Please don’t Danny. I would think less of you. There are enough PhDs, MDs and neurosurgeons around. We don’t need another brainwashed person. I guess you already have a library card.

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 4, 2012 at 21:11

        Yes, we all know how utterly worthless formal education is.

        What a brilliant comment. If ignorance is such a virtue, why read at all?

        Aren’t the books on science and medicine written by brainwashed victims with MDs and PhDs?

      • Edle on April 4, 2012 at 21:35

        “Aren’t the books on science and medicine written by brainwashed victims with MDs and PhDs?”

        Yes, I guess 95% are. So why suffer through a curriculum where the useful 5% are rarely included?

        At the end of the day degrees are like penis extensions. Like a Porsche. Don’t get me wrong. I had a fun time at the University of Cambridge, and somewhat enjoyed all the compliments my mint condition Range Rover Vogue generated. But I have learned more stimulating and useful stuff from reading articles of Gilbert Ling, Ray Peat, Jamie Cunliffe…..and Danny….online, than from my professors at Cambridge. And at the end of the day, I loved my 1981 Honda Cub 90cc more than my Range.

        I am pretty ignorant and mediocre, but a formal degree did not make me less so. And if you agree that formal education is utterly worthless, why recommend it to others?

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 4, 2012 at 23:03

        I don’t agree.

        And if you can’t see that, then I hope you were on scholarship at Cambridge as it sure hasn’t seen to have done you much good.

        “So why suffer through a curriculum where the useful 5% are rarely included?”

        So just to be clear, the less educated and knowledgeable the author, the more you value the book.

        Sounds like a Peatophile to me….

      • Sean on April 5, 2012 at 00:30

        From your rather incoherent writing, Edle, I’m guessing you majored in sociology? Maybe journalism? Puppetry?

        I have an undergrad degree in electrical engineering, and there’s simply no way to bullshit your way through that. Engineering is all about problem solving, that’s all you do for five years. And the solutions are either right or wrong, although there may be different approaches to the answer, no room for the cultural marxism that every opinion is valid in it’s own normative socio-emotive construct. Naw, if the bridge falls down (or the antenna fails, in my case), you fucked up.

        The thing about medical school is that is basically glorified vocational training. This is an opinion I got from people who actually went to med school (well the ones who aren’t pretentious). So I could see why the undergrad degree would make a big difference, as Kurt says. Rigorous thinking is possible for an autodidact, but is much more likely learned in a university where one’s less able to fool oneself or take intellectual shortcuts.

        If you didn’t learn jack shit in college that’s your own damn fault. I learned tons, most especially I learned how to learn, and I went to a fucking cow college (NMSU).

      • Evelyn aka CarbSane on April 5, 2012 at 04:27

        For me, there’s always some sort of tipping point. We can’t possibly agree with everything someone believes, and science gets no where if not for experimenters and those who go out on a limb with a novel hypothesis and read/research at the fringe of what seems possible. BUT, as you say Kurt, it’s often just one claim/tome/etc. that puts it over the edge. It makes you question whether all the other things are right after all. I’d rather not waste hours pouring through Jack’s epic manifestos trying to tease out the stuff he’s right about from the garbage. I never could take someone seriously who can’t even formulate a few sentences to answer the simple question of HOW his LR Protocol is SUPPOSED to work. All we get out of him is nonsense like leptin resistant people can’t process the electrons from carbohydrates.

      • Edle on April 5, 2012 at 06:07

        @Kurt Harris MD,

        I am all for reading, questioning and experimenting as much as possible. For many, a university is a good place to learn. For others, it enforces an already declining curiosity, or indoctrinates something that is plain wrong. Is getting a degree the only way to educate oneself? Don’t think so.

        And yes, I had scholarship(s), but so what. I’ve met people with no detectable ability for critical thinking who got scholarships to Harvard. Anyway, assuming my education didn’t benefit myself nor society, would it not have been better if I had paid myself, rather than wasting other people’s money? Again, I do not get your logic. But then again, the neolithic agent fructose is probably playing games with me.

        @Sean – glad that you have benefited from Kurt Harris’ work. Nah, I had fun with other subjects, even though puppetry would be truly fascinating. I mostly agree with you on engineering. Seem to attract decent no-BS type people. I guess it’s more vocational in nature, like medicine (as opposed to basic sciences). And I don’t mean that in a derogatory way. I exclude vocationally oriented education from my statement. I have seen engineers mess up risk assessments though, by rejecting science.

        I still have serious issues with Kurt Harris’ recommendation (get an undergrad degree) to someone who finds Peat’s work interesting, with the assumption that the person is completely lost, and a degree will set things straight. Is a degree in biology a guarantee for rigor in the eyes of Harris? Ray Peat has a PhD in biology from UO, which excludes him from the autodidact category. And I stand by my statement that a lot of people use degrees (and cars) for peer recognition. I am/was one of them. I never said I didn’t learn anything in university. I also used to think the social sciences were pseudo and the natural sciences were for real. But it’s not that simple. Kuhn, whom I actually read, could have told me that. And I never said that there are not a lot of brilliant people with degrees. But they are not brilliant because of their degrees. And sadly, academia isn’t always about science, which hopefully involves searching for the truth, or at least, being right. Ego trippin’, status seeking, religious like stubbornness, and even pressure for consensus gets in the way. Glad NMSU did you good though.

        (In an already too long off topic post), on the issue of Jack Kruse, he is obviously not about rigor by any means. But I cannot help liking the guy just a bit despite the metabolic havoc some of his followers likely have suffered if they allowed their T3 to crash on a low carb “leptin reset”. Hopefully he has done more good than harm.

      • Sean on April 5, 2012 at 07:37

        Edle, heh heh, well I take back the incoherent comment.

        I agree that engineering is also vocational in nature. It varies quite a bit, though. I specialized in emag, which was as theoretical as I could get, whereas power was rather famously a plug-and-chug specialty. I also managed to substitute a lot of physics classes for engineering classes and frankly the EEs were so lean and mean in those classes compared to the physics undergrads it was ridiculous.

        I agree that academia is mostly bullshit, because most people want to skate by on BS (get it!) degrees. Actually, I wouldn’t be surprised if the hard sciences and engineering have been watered down in academia since I went to college. Yeah, that’s the crotchety old man talking.

        In my case, I feel like I learned almost nothing in public school. University was quite a shock but eventually pride overcame laziness and I had to buckle down and actually learn and work at it. In my case, I never would’ve have achieved whatever level of intellectual rigor I have now on my own.

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 5, 2012 at 10:10

        Thanks for helping out, Sean. My PoMo Foucalt/Derrida vocabulary is rusty after too many years of real life since I read all that crap as a youth.

        Medicine is based on science the same way engineering is. Neither is teaching you to DO science. They both rely on science for their foundational principles and you are taught (or should be taught) by real scientists.

        But what you learn in medical school, and especially in residency training, is really lore, not science. So in that sense they are both vocational.

        What I was trying to point out was that the reason some MDs may not have a clue about science, is that they have no training in it. I went to medical school with people who majored in russian literature and who never spent a day in a lab or ever wrote, much less edited a scientific paper.

        Then consider that my medical school was a major university research institution crawling with nobel laureates and with billions in research funding.

        Even a russian major is going to pick up more science training at such a place over one of the many non-research institutions that train MDs n the US.

        As a science critic, my background is actually more similar to Evelyn Kocur’s (the non-MD former industry researcher Carbsane) or to Stephan Guyenet (a PhD biologist) than it is to most MDs who have no background or experience in actually doing science.

        Medical school is about science-based lore, not training people to do science.

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 5, 2012 at 10:31


        “Is a degree in biology a guarantee for rigor in the eyes of Harris?”

        Jesus, you really are reading a lot into a simple recommendation I made to Danny, whom I’ve know for 3 years, ever since he followed my advice to abandon a meat and water diet….

        Not a guarantee, unfortunately. But I am sure it gives a higher probability of being able to be critical about biological science.

        Do you think taking courses in biochemistry, cell physiology, vertebrate endocrinology, genetics and evolution makes you LESS likely to be rigorous? If so I’m, dying to hear your logic

        I get that you are a “defender” of Danny and Peat. My recommendation to Danny was sincere, as I have already stated. It has nothing to do with danny improving his status in your eyes or mine, and everything to do with my observation that people with a real grounding in BIOLOGICAL science and medicine are less likely to find Peat convincing. If you majored in a biological science you would prove the exception.

        I am sorry you think that degrees of any kind are just “penis extenders” but I can’t escape the contradiction of thinking that Peat must know something because he has a PhD from OU and that the only reason I would recommend an undergrad degree to Danny would be to enhance his status seeking.

        I mean, seriously, who thinks an undergrad degree in anything confers STATUS?

        No one I respect as knowledgeable has a high opinion of Peat. No one. In fact, if you find someone with a good grounding in biology (like a penis-extending BS in zoology or biology) who really finds him consistently credible, I’d like to know about it.

        Better yet, find me ONE medical endocrinologist or PhD mammalian endocrinologist.

      • Evelyn aka CarbSane on April 5, 2012 at 12:09

        Just think what it’s like now Kurt … at least when I was in college, MOST pre meds who wanted to have a chance at admission to medical school were either bio or chem majors.

        Having a degree in science varies widely as well. I got my bio degree from RPI as somewhat of a compromise with my father who wanted me to be an engineer. I almost went to a school that only offered a BA in biology but didn’t get the scholarship so we never had that argument ;-) So even when one can claim a degree in biology (or other science) it does not tell you much as to what they’ve learned. At RPI I was required to take 3 semesters of calculus, 3 semesters of calc based engineering physics (that’s all they offered) and 2 semesters each of general chem and organic chem. Then there were all the bio courses and labs. By contrast, from Williams where Mark Sisson received his BA: “Majors are strongly advised to take two semesters of chemistry, a statistics course, calculus, and physics.”

        @Edle, At some point the “academics are idiots” schtick wears thin. No, letters after names don’t automatically convey credibility, knowledge or intellect, but on the other hand, learning one’s information entirely outside the realm of formal education is not inherently superior. I would dare say that it is probably an inferior means of obtaining information and the person learning this way has to be very careful to vet their sources. However they are at a disadvantage since they lack the knowledge to do that to some extent. I’ve seen a lot of woo come from PhD’s and MD’s and a whole lot more. But none so bad as the mutilation of basic human metabolism coming from someone celebrated in the paleo world: Nora “all body fat comes from glucose” Gedgaudas. Just one example where formal education might have been the better route before writing a book and seeking to educate others.

      • Danny Roddy on April 5, 2012 at 13:11

        BAMF, I mean Evelyn,

        Any thoughts on Peat’s theory of optimizing the production of ATP by supporting an oxidative metabolism, the production of CO2, and limiting potentially “dangerous” hormones of adaptation (adrenaline, cortisol, and perhaps Selye’s “shock hormone,” estrogen)?

        100% woo-bullshit? Or warrants further investigation?

      • Evelyn aka CarbSane on April 5, 2012 at 13:44

        Sorry, queen of the acronyms here doesn’t recognize BAMF ;-) But just to be clear, my comment wasn’t directed at you or Peat per se.

        I read quite a bit of Peat when Matt Stone had his “Ray May” last year. He lost me with the RBTI stuff though …. Still, I have limited time and spend way too much already on my own blog and trying to still “get out” about the web. I’d love to read some of his summary works at least, but just haven’t found that. So when you ask for my thoughts above I honestly haven’t the knowledge of his views to comment.

        I am sensing a lot of “doctors don’t know doctoring” and “scientists don’t know science” sentiments here and that was what I was responding too. If scientists don’t know science, many of the wannabes who think they know better are making fools of themselves in the process because they know a whole lot less than the folks they are criticizing.

        Which is not to rule out that folks can’t learn a whole lot outside formal education. But hopefully that info stream leads at some point to mainstream texts and primary research publications.

        Jack talks scientific gibberish. The leptin receptor can’t handle the electrons from carbohydrates? Phelps manipulates his thermogenic coefficients? HUH??????

      • Richard Nikoley on April 5, 2012 at 13:46

        “Sorry, queen of the acronyms here doesn’t recognize BAMF”

        Check the Urban Dictionary. It’s a _solid_ compliment.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 5, 2012 at 13:48

        “I am sensing a lot of “doctors don’t know doctoring” and “scientists don’t know science” sentiments here and that was what I was responding too.”

        I have to side with Evelyn on this one. There’s a distinction to be made between corruption or just systemic morass that never gets much of anything done, confirmation bias and all of that and actually not knowing science.

      • Evelyn aka CarbSane on April 5, 2012 at 13:59

        Awww *blush* — I do believe that’s at least the second time he’s called me a bad ass and I do consider that a compliment! :D

      • CG on April 5, 2012 at 14:33

        Well, I can’t tell you what college was like in the 1800s (Just kidding!) but with what I went through for my engineering degree was by no means easy or ‘light’. (Having no social life help?).

        We took math classes with the math nerds, physics with the physics nerds, etc. I hear they now have special engineering math classes that cut out the “theory of things”.

      • Leigh on April 5, 2012 at 14:56

        Good grief, I hope not. Learning theory means you can apply the principles to new practical situations. Learning just the facts turns GT (my alma mater) into nothing but a glorified trade school.

        My math/science curricula was just like Evelyn described hers.

      • Edle on April 5, 2012 at 18:16


        I don´t think that academia is all BS. Things would collapse without. But paradigms shift, including in biology. Actually, I found undergrad to be the most useful, so I agree with you there.

        Anyway, CarbSane, Evelyn, BAMF, you are way too cool for me to argue with. Enjoy your blog, a lot! Was hoping you would further explore the low carb, thyroid and weight connections you started discussing in “Puzzle Pieces … Low Carb & Thyroid”.


        Cool. Happy Easter.

        @Kurt Harris,

        Not sure why you bring relativists like Derrida into the mix when I argued that science is all about being right. CarbSane is probably right when Taubes, Gedgaudas and Kruse are wrong. It´s that simple.

        I agree that Peat´s work should be scrutinized by people with a sound understanding of biology. This is why your rigorous scrutiny of the specific mechanisms he is discussing would be appreciated. A general dismissal along the lines of “No one I respect as knowledgeable has a high opinion of Peat” is not all that convincing. What is their stand on a cell biology understanding à la Gilbert Ling, or the immune system theories of the likes of Polly Matzinger? And if Ling and Matzinger are not off, where does Peat get it all wrong in his application? Is Kruse that much more worthy of a specific critique than Peat?

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 5, 2012 at 22:24


        I’ve read plenty of Matzinger and Peat is no Matzinger, nor Selye I assure you.

        Matzinger has fantastic review articles in science and nature. Where are Peat’s if he is of the same stature?

        Apparently you missed my “specific dismissals” about the virology of AIDs and Peat’s conception of the ontogeny of the normal Thymus gland in humans – at odds with basic knowledge about human development, and even involving an organ of the immune system he is supposed to be so expert at.

        So you’ll have to settle for my general dismissal as last I checked I’m not on your payroll or in any way obligated to give you more than that, and you’re boring the shit out of me with your feigned anti-intellectualism, and so even if I had the will to do so, I am not inclined to help someone I’ve never met who is so obviously hostile.

        You’ll have to do your own work, or stay a Peat disciple being taught wrong things.

        “Not sure why you bring relativists like Derrida into the mix when I argued that science is all about being right.”

        Well, once again I was addressing someone else, namely Sean, so you’ll have to figure it out for yourself, I guess. And you never argued that science was about being right, you argued that having less education was an ADVANTAGE which is a stupid argument – so stupid it does remind one of postmodern epistemology – Sean thought the same thing obviously…

        “CarbSane is probably right when Taubes, Gedgaudas and Kruse are wrong. It´s that simple.”

        I thought you required rigorous scrutiny?

        And I first read Kuhn (SSR) in 1982. Big deal. Keep tossing around “paradigm” all you like I am sure it will impress someone.

        Kuhn is perversely kind of the father of all this quackery in the internet age. Everyone and their dog is now “shattering a paradigm”. But sometimes the normal science is right and the “new paradigm” is a just a crock.

        Hence Barry Sears and Peat and Kruse and Taubes…

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 5, 2012 at 22:33

        Well I didn’t mention the math through diff eq, the 5 semesters of calculus based physics (switched my major from physics after E and M) the minor I had in chemistry, P Chem etc. In fact, probably 80% of my credits were hard sciences even though a Zoology major only required about 40% science. I was actually warned I might not get into med school by my advisor due to the lack of fluff, but MCATs in the 90th percentile saved the day for me I guess.

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 5, 2012 at 22:34

        That was supposed to be a reply to Evelyn higher in the thread – damn this threading makes no sense…..

      • Richard Nikoley on April 6, 2012 at 00:23

        The threading only goes a few levels deep AF then stacks up chronologically under that extreme once the limit is reached.

      • Danny Roddy on April 6, 2012 at 00:38

        @Dr. Harris, You are not on my payroll, but Selye is as “Peat” as a carrot salad and a Mexi Coke:

        The Textbook of Endocrinology by Hans Selye (1947)

        Thymus Involution:

        “The organ weighs about 15 gm. at birth and 35 gm. at puberty, but subsequently involutes, reaching 25 gm. in a young adult of about 25 years and gradually diminishes to about 6 gm. at about 70 years of age.

        “The best established experimental observations concerning the thymus have been brought out during the last ten years by work concerned with the influence upon this organ of non-specific damage and steroid hormones. It appears that folliculoids and to a lesser extent, even other steroid hormones, cause rapid thymus involution, not only in intact, but also in adrenalectomized animals. Non-specific damaging agents of all kinds have a similar effect only if the adrenals are intact. It has been assumed therefore, that various types of stress cause the thymus to involute through the intermediary of the adrenals.”

        “Steroid hormones cause thymic involution in proportion to their folliculoid potency in intact, adrenalectoimized, or gonadectomized animals.”

        “Other conditions, such as exposure to nervous or even purely mental stress, forced muscular exercise, anoxia, extremes of temperature, trauma, hemorrhage or intoxication with various drugs, all produce thymus atrophy, as part of general adaption-syndrome which they elicit.”

        “Following thyroidectomy, the lymphatic organs, notably the lymph nodes, thymus spleen and bone marrow, usually show moderate involution. Treatment with low doses of thyroid hormone stimulates the growth of these organs.”


        Peat is saying that hormones of adaptation (mainly cortisol and estrogen) interfere with thyroid, which promotes the involution of the thymus. I am not saying an enlarged thymus is desirable.


        Thyroid, Pulse & Temperature:

        “The basal metabolic rate (B.M.R.) is the oxygen consumption (or CO2 production, or heat production) under fasting conditions (to eliminate specific dynamic action of food), absolute rest (to eliminate increased caloric requirements for muscular work) and at normal room temperature (to eliminate variations in caloric requirements for the maintenance of normal body temperature).”

        “The body temperature is generally a few degrees below normal and hypothyroid patients often suffer from an almost continuous sensation of cold”

        “The pulse rate is slow, about 50 or less per minute and there may be hypotension and even cardiac insufficiency”

        “Hypothyroidism causes pronounced disturbances in carbohydrate metabolism. This is not unexpected since thyroid hormone stimulates oxidative processes in all tissues and exerts specific influence upon glycogen storage in the liver.”

        “The body temperature decreases during the shock-phase of the alarm reaction, especially if defense is impeded by adrenalectomy or hypophysectomy. During the state of resistance, on the other hand, there is often hyperthermia.”


        I am not saying everyone has a broken thyroid gland, I’m saying hormones of adaption inhibit the conversion of T4 to T3, which hinders “recovery” due to a decrease in all oxidative processes.

        Something that warrants further investigation and not flagrant dismissal—that’s all.

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 6, 2012 at 17:25

        So it was you that was confused about whether it was normal for the thymus to involute or not, and not Peat? Is that your claim now?

        I was relying on your representation of Peat’s views when you were shocked to learn from me that thymic involution was normal. Maybe you need to memorize Peat better.

        Certainly I have yet to make a single claim against Hans Selye, so your argument is a straw man, and your attempt to conflate Peat with Selye is simply not worth arguing with, nor is your attempt to claim I said a damned thing about the thyroid gland.

        What is the point of quoting about clinical hypothyroidism? Are you implying I said there was no such thing because I dismissed Broda?

        What precisely gives you the confidence to know that you are right about Peat and I am clueless?

        And I’ve dismissed exactly what I have dismissed. Stop putting words in my mouth. I’ve not flagrantly dismissed any fat of physiology, just Peat’s interpretation of them.

        “I’m saying hormones of adaption inhibit the conversion of T4 to T3, which hinders “recovery” due to a decrease in all oxidative processes.”

        The problem is not the intrinsic content of that sentence, which i have never specifically denied, even as the meaning is arguable, it is the leap from this statement to mexi cokes and carrot salads. It’s total pop nonsense.

        It’s the leap, danny. The prescriptions do not follow. The idea that our entire endocrine system was evolved over a hundred million years but never worked properly until Ray Peat told us to eat carrots and sugar. It’s pop bullshit.

        What was your answer on the cause of AIDS? I seem to have missed that.

      • Danny Roddy on April 6, 2012 at 18:31

        I asked you if it was optimal for an organ integral for immune function to shrink overtime and you just laughed at me.

        Both Peat and Selye are saying that hormones cause the increased destruction of the thymus, which you claimed to be a “WTF NUGGET.”

        You said that Selye, the author of The Stress of Life, would “disown” Peat’s TOE (minimize stress through proper mitochondrial respiration), which is completely bogus.

        The cause of AIDS? I haven’t ever looked into it. Sex, hair, and health, remember? I’m open to all and any possibilities from those who have looked into it more than I have.

      • Dylandc on April 7, 2012 at 08:32

        The effect of raw carrot on serum lipids and colon function

      • Dylandc on April 7, 2012 at 08:42


      • Richard Nikoley on April 7, 2012 at 08:42

        Heh, just by happenstance I’ve been idly chomping on raw carrots lately, in the evening after dinner. Only thing I’ve noticed is that I often get mild heartburn if I’ve indulged in some scotch and the carrots seem to prevent that. I’ve previously noted the same thing with raw celery.

      • Edle on April 7, 2012 at 17:41

        @Kurt Harris,

        You seem to be very confident in your ridicule of Peat´s statement that there is no scientific proof that HIV causes AIDS. Very few scientists are competent enough to fully explain and defend the HIV theory. So you probably consider yourself as one of them. Fine. Personally, I am not qualified to have an opinion on the matter, but I am not going to start an argument with the Perth Group when they state that to date they are not satisfied with the proof regarding: “1. The existence of a unique, exogenously acquired retrovirus, HIV; 2. The “HIV” antibody tests are specific for “HIV” infection; 3. The HIV theory of AIDS, that is, that HIV causes acquired immune deficiency (destruction of T4 lymphocytes=AID) or that AID leads to the development of the clinical syndrome AIDS (…).” And yes, questioning AIDS is not a popular stand by any means. P. Duisberg, R. Root-Bernstein, E. Papadopulos-Eleopulos, V. Turner, G. Stewart, A. Hässig and others have not become popular by questioning the mainstream consensus. Articles in peer reviewed journals suggesting a re-appraisal of the HIV-AIDS hypothesis constitute a small minority.

        Thing is, your view of science seem to be that of a popularity contest (my friend said this about Peat (negative), no one knowledgable I respect think highly of Peat, Matzinger is accepted by the establishment so she is all good, but Peat is not accepted, so he is not okay). With this premise, Peat will always be wrong.

        And assuming medical school is science applied for optimal health outcomes, respecting the principle of do no harm, with a fair share of students having a “sound” science undergrad background like yourself, why do people turn to chemist Robb Wolf and astrophysicist Paul Jaminet to fix their health – or God forbid – community college drop out Danny Roddy?

        I´ll have a raw carrot now. Happy Easter to you, Richard & all.

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 8, 2012 at 19:09

        It is amazing to me how someone who used to be convinced that pemmican and water was the tree of life can now be so convinced he knows the truth about a fantastically complex subject like mammalian metabolism.

        “I asked you if it was optimal for an organ integral for immune function to shrink overtime and you just laughed at me.”

        As I recall my response was that it is neither optimal nor non-optimal but rather part of normal and unavoidable ontogeny. It is not optimal to die, yet I doubt you would claim it is avoidable with stupid dietary tricks…

        Does is concern you that the red bone marrow intimately involved in red blood cell production in a way that is analogous to the thymus and containing stem cells involutes normally as well? The bone marrow in a 16 year old’s femur or vertebral body is totally different in cellular constituency to that of a 40 year old and this is totally, unshockingly normal. It is not pathology, it is ontogeny.

        “Both Peat and Selye are saying that hormones cause the increased destruction of the thymus, which you claimed to be a “WTF NUGGET.”

        There you go again, equating your own misapprehension or others’ work with something they actually said. Selye is not Peat. And what organ involutes that is not influenced by hormones in one sense or another? Is the red marrow in your femur “destroyed” when it turns to fat?

        “You said that Selye, the author of The Stress of Life, would “disown” Peat’s TOE (minimize stress through proper mitochondrial respiration), which is completely bogus.”

        In the opinion of a musician who thinks the phrase “proper” can be applied to something like mitochondrial respiration, as if there is some choice or even moral issue involved in choosing how we want our mitochondria to function. Once again, evolution has designed our metabolism over billions of years to be exquisitely sensitive to dietary tricks and hacks? Nonsense.

        “The cause of AIDS? I haven’t ever looked into it.”

        That is what is so outrageous about you presuming to lecture anyone about metabolism. If you knew enough about the most basic virology and immunology, you would instantly be suspicious of anyone like Peat making such painfully goofy claims about something so well studied -something that kills people and which could not be stopped from replicating in the host without HIV replication being the “cause”….

        “Sex, hair, and health, remember? I’m open to all and any possibilities from those who have looked into it more than I have.”

        In order for the looking to be fruitful, one must be armed with something more than enthusiasm and credulity. Otherwise you risk finding what you want to find, whether it really exists or not.

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 8, 2012 at 19:29


        “Personally, I am not qualified to have an opinion on the matter”

        You sure type a lot for someone with no opinion. And your own confidence that I am wrong about Peat comes from where exactly? You are just bristling at finding someone who is goring your so emotionally held ox.

        You suggest I only endorse writers or scientists who are ‘popular” which I take as just one more insult from you. Are you aware of the whole canon of writers or thinkers I endorse, let alone read? No you are not.

        I suggest you decide subconsciously to believe bullshit because the actual scientific truth is too mundane or not exciting enough for your infantile view of how the world should work.

        You want the world to be the kind of place where eating carrots and sugar can really make a big difference. You want to live in an easy world. I prefer to live in once that was not designed by a practical joker…

        “why do people turn to chemist Robb Wolf and astrophysicist Paul Jaminet to fix their health”

        I don’t know. Maybe you can explain it to me. I put it down to humans looking for the answers they want to find. Sometimes they will get Robb and Paul who usually will do them much more good than harm (unless they decide to treat a nonexistent infection and have some horrible antibiotic complication in the case of Paul)

        And sometimes they will end up with Kruse who might kill them outright, and sometimes they might end up with Peat, whose advice is mostly harmless, but just misleading and wrong.

      • bonita on April 10, 2012 at 10:47

        you’re clearly are not familiar with the argument if you think that it originated with peat.

      • Ty Fyter on April 17, 2012 at 14:24

        hey Danny Roddy! are you the same Danny Roddy of RHR fame?!

      • Monica Hughes on April 3, 2012 at 20:06

        Thanks for some sanity. I don’t really follow this guy. The first I read about him was in Melissa M.’s recent blogpost.

        S. aureus is normal flora on the skin and in nasal passages in about 30% of people. And healthcare workers who are carriers of MRSA specifically generally take great care not to transmit it to patients. Inside the body, ANY staph can cause blood clots, lysis of red blood cells, has toxins that kill leukocytes, can destroy connective tissue, and can cause toxic shock syndrome, among many other things (endocarditis, food poisoning from enterotoxins, etc.). I’d rather inject myself with measles, quite honestly. And he not only infected himself with staph, he (if he’s being truthful) infected himself with a strain resistant to a whole slew of drugs.

        There are two possibilities, as I see it. 1) Kruse is a pathological, attention seeking liar. Or 2) he’s mentally ill. Lots of mentally ill people are geniuses. But they’re still mentally ill.

        If this is where paleo is headed, count me out.

      • Kamal Patel on April 3, 2012 at 20:15

        Before you are crucified for offering a rational viewpoint, I’d like to say thank you for posting.

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 3, 2012 at 20:31

        See, you don’t need to be a doctor to refute ANY of Kruse’s key claims.

      • Monica Hughes on April 3, 2012 at 20:46

        Kamel, Kurt, and anyone else reading — actually, I’ll make it easy for everyone to dismiss me. I’m a microbiology professor with a specialty in fungi.

        People don’t seem to understand the concept of where microbiota is normal and where it is not normal. Enterococcus might be normal in my intestines, but I’m sure as hell not going to go out of my way to inject VRE into my urethra to attempt to prove that I’m invincible because of cold therapy.

        I suspect, as does Kurt, saying you’ve injected yourself with MRSA is merely a stunt that a pathological narcissist does to get attention. However, it is possible that Kruse actually knows what he’s talking about. I suppose all you’d have to do would be to take a nasal swab of a healthcare worker with MRSA and do a Kirby Bauer disk diffusion test to verify.

      • Monica Hughes on April 3, 2012 at 20:53

        But if that IS the case, I stand by my prior claim of him being mentally ill. If I was going to inject myself with one of the most toxic bacteria on the planet, I’d sure as hell want it to be treatable in case something went wrong.

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 3, 2012 at 21:22

        “If I was going to inject myself with one of the most toxic bacteria on the planet, I’d sure as hell want it to be treatable in case something went wrong.”

        That’s how any physician or clinical scientist knows he is bullshitting. MRSA is no more lethal than standard SA, he is just adding the MR bit to show what a cocky confident son-of-a-bitch he is. He is so CONFIDENT his therapy works, etc….

      • Evelyn aka CarbSane on April 5, 2012 at 13:46

        BTW Danny, at some point if I find the time when my semester is over, I’ll be glad to look into some more Peat. I get quite a few questions from readers about him from time to time. Feel free to email me or Twitter me links you think might be helpful.

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 3, 2012 at 21:20

        Ha Ha – according to Kruse logic, you just discredited yourself by knowing more than any physician possibly could on the topic. But what do I know, I “work in dark rooms.. “: )

        “Enterococcus might be normal in my intestines, but I’m sure as hell not going to go out of my way to inject VRE into my urethra to attempt to prove that I’m invincible because of cold therapy.”

        +1 How many people die of Strep pneumonia every year, one of the commonest nasal commensals.

      • Leigh on April 4, 2012 at 13:19

        Because their immune systems are crap.

      • Tyler on April 4, 2012 at 14:59

        Or the Strep pneumonia.

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 4, 2012 at 17:10

        If you rely on Kruse logic for your knowledge of immunology and microbiology, you are in for a world of hurt. Just please stay the hell out of my hospital…

        Your opinions here only reinforce how dangerous someone like Kruse is to the commonweal.

      • Leigh on April 4, 2012 at 18:13

        Sorry, my knowledge bank and opinions on immunology et al were formed long before I heard of the Kruse dude. That’s why I’m so surprised to see so many germophobic paleo people.

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 4, 2012 at 21:15

        Leigh, I’ve read most of your comments here and they display an alarmingly deficient knowledge bank. I assure you that you can’t even fathom what you don’t understand about immunology.

        For starters, try googling “endotoxin” – you don’t even need a live organism – a “germ” to use your term – for it to kill you.

      • Daniel Kirsner on April 4, 2012 at 00:04

        I almost died of endocarditis in 2009. I was inadvertently “injected” with staph (conventional, not MRSA) via a lumbar facet joint nerve ablation in October of that year, got sick about two days later, lost 25lbs in 6 weeks & saw three different doctors before a belated diagnosis possibly saved my life. Spent 5 days in the hospital, 7 weeks on PIC line antibiotics, a few months more on orals…all in all, it wasn’t a terribly unpleasant experience, once I got past the vomiting every 10 minutes stage, and probably wouldn’t have been a particularly painful way to go, but if health *enhancement* is your goal…

        Go for a walk?
        Eat a carrot?
        Lift heavy things?

      • C2U on April 3, 2012 at 23:32


        Need some like buttons on this baby.

      • expat on April 4, 2012 at 11:55

        Hey Kurt are you still selling your 2007 Porsche?

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 4, 2012 at 17:10


      • JC on April 8, 2012 at 14:50

        I’m glad you sold the Porsche. They were no good for pulling up and down the driveway anyway. Buy a Range Rover instead. I hear their the choice vehicle for Paleo re-enactment exercises!

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 9, 2012 at 14:05

        Yeah, you have to put the parking brake on to simulate the paleo range rover…

    • Leigh on April 4, 2012 at 13:44

      He did not drive himself home. His wife did.

    • Karen P. on April 5, 2012 at 12:22

      Whether or not exposing his surgeon to MRSA counts as hurting a soul, I don’t know a doctor alive that can claim they’ve never hurt a soul. And I’m married to one. Unfortunately, the potential for harm is as strong as the potential for good.

  16. Brenda on April 3, 2012 at 16:14

    But you are qualified to speak with certainty on the existence of God and the value of prayer? Brutha please

    • Richard Nikoley on April 3, 2012 at 16:21

      No Brenda, not with certainty, but with lots of laughing at you and other ignorant superstitious peole. Incidentally, I was a “born again” who attended Divnity school in a past life. I saw the anti-humanity first hand and rejected it.

      What did you do beyond what people spoon fed you at 2-4 years old, scaring the shit out of you?

      • Brenda on April 3, 2012 at 16:43

        Your history and Divinity school has no bearing on the existence of God. Did I even say I was religious? It is so transparent that you have a God chip on your shoulder….which is fascinating because it seems to drive you.

      • Brenda on April 3, 2012 at 16:45

        Wait, its not a chip, its a fear, and I can totally relate to that. I guess people deal with fear differently.

      • Brenda on April 3, 2012 at 16:55

        with lots of laughing at you and other ignorant superstitious peole……I saw the anti-humanity first hand and rejected it. <—you probably don't even see your own blaring hypocrisy. I've known you less than a minute and you are the least humane person I have met today.

      • Beth@WeightMaven on April 3, 2012 at 18:46

        Umm, dislike.

      • Dana on April 3, 2012 at 19:17

        Also dislike. If nothing else, phenomenally uncreative. Every asshole guy who wants to verbally beat up a woman calls them a cunt. Come up with something original.

      • Erika on April 3, 2012 at 20:47

        Gotta agree with Dana on that.

        Is Richard off the safe starches or what??

      • Richard Nikoley on April 3, 2012 at 21:21

        Oh Jezus, already. Nothing is quite as funny as chicks getting panties in a bunch over a guy using the ‘c’ word. It really is funny. That’s probably why we do it.

      • Brenda on April 4, 2012 at 00:37

        Its okay, when you make money convincing people walking away from their debt is fine, it is probably easier being an athiest. Ethics are just opinions, they don’t eminate from any higher source.

      • Beth@WeightMaven on April 4, 2012 at 04:11

        Well feel free to continue to entertain yourself with it, but it really does say a lot more about you than those of us with our panties in a bunch.

      • Kamal Patel on April 4, 2012 at 19:48

        Pussy-poseur. I like it. Better go create something now, like my lunch for tomorrow. Or…what exactly does one have to do to create something? I can proudly claim that my ideas aren’t really mine–I just cobble together things from Paul Jaminet, Kurt Harris, and others. When Kruse says something noteworthy, I’m not ashamed to say I explore it more in pubmed. So uncreative of me.

        Although I did just create a website to help people with chronic pain issues, which you can make fun of if you’d like:

        And I did publish a few papers on vitamin D, food security, prostate cancer, and a couple other topics. Not to say that academic hooha is creating anything of real value, but still…



        So in conclusion, keep right on being Richard. I really don’t mind 99% of what you say, and as Richard would say “don’t get your panties in a bunch”. Except please don’t ridicule Meredith, Carly, or akd as you have. They are my friends, who I love to pieces, and I would only provide them with the freshest of insults, not your usual schtick :)

      • mark on April 4, 2012 at 06:22

        Amen Richard.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 4, 2012 at 08:49

        I’ve been called worse.

        By the way, Sean and Nigel call each other cunt all the time. Makes them laugh.

      • luckybastard on April 4, 2012 at 13:43

        black people call themselves the n-word all the time and it’s acceptable to them. however, let it be uttered by someone outside the circle and shit’s going down. women call each other bitches all the time, but it’s different coming from a man. i think you can see where i’m going with this… what does quilty say? it’s all about context…

      • akd on April 4, 2012 at 14:59

        thats a disgusting, hateful, and violent word and i wont support a blogger who uses it, then further insults all women with a flippant defense. beth is right that it says more about you than it does about us. it says you’re a hatful man, and im not at all surprised that you *think* you have been called worse, but fortunately for you there is no equivalent term for a man, so cry me a fucking river. suffice it to say, you clearly lack any class or character and ill be happy to see you rot in it. you can only *dream* to have as much power as a woman’s cunt.

        [For an update, please see: Lemons to Lemonade Documentary – Ed]

      • Evelyn aka CarbSane on April 4, 2012 at 15:17

        Whoa. Geez, I rarely read here because vulgarity is not my general cuppa tea … still it doesn’t bunch my panties most of the time. But you just called a woman one for what? A comment that seemed innocent enough but perhaps rubbed you the wrong way?? Is this really what you’re all about … and defending it no less? :-(

      • Evolutionarily on April 5, 2012 at 05:28

        You lost it right here Kamal, listing your accomplishments to try refute Richard’s attack. You would have been better of just getting more nasty and ad hominem, that or leaving.

        What I don’t get about you guys is this is RICHARD’s blog… You came here. And he didn’t even invite you! Do you complain about what people do in their own house if you don’t like it? Do you look through your neighbours windows for something you don’t approve of? If you’re at a friends house and they take a shit on floor, you don’t start chastising them about it. You don’t go through point by point on your fingers why its wrong, the smell, the hygiene, the decorum. You get up and you leave, that is not a house you will be visiting again. You delete that friend from Facebook. It’s no fucking different here. Not for an opinionated matter…

        You guys are whinging about a blogger, known to be explicit and confrontational, using swear words in the comments of his own blog post, to someone he felt was rude to him… Jesus Fucking Christ.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 4, 2012 at 15:43

        Yep, Evelyn,

        I’ve been at this a long time. Nine years and I know exactly what I’m dong.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 4, 2012 at 15:44


        Fuck off, cunt.

        How’s that?

      • Carly on April 4, 2012 at 16:20

        Who’s Aid? Do you mean AKD? You truly are a disgusting human being to call two ladies “cunts” in one thread. That is truly unacceptable, severely lacks imagination and SMACKS of small dick syndrome.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 4, 2012 at 16:35

        Yea I’ve heard it all before, Carly.


      • Richard Nikoley on April 4, 2012 at 16:36

        Oh, I just got an idea for a post with ‘cunt’ in the title.

      • Carly on April 4, 2012 at 16:42

        I’m not offended by the word itself, but a man calling a woman a cunt is not right. It sounds aggressive and mysogynistic. Any reasonable person would agree that it is unacceptable to verbally attack a woman in such a manner.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 4, 2012 at 17:04


        Please, after nine years, over 3,000 posts, 50,000 or however many comments with 120k visits and over 200k page views per month, I’ve heard this all before.

        In comments, just like this, and life always goes on.

        If its any comfort to you, I usually go with fuck off, but every now and then…

      • Meredith on April 4, 2012 at 17:44

        Disengage ladies. This cocksucker should be deleted from your reader. What a prick.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 4, 2012 at 17:53


        Interestingly, I’d lay odds that between you, me and all the ladies, there’s only one of us that’s not a cocksucker.

        ….not that there’s anything wrong with that.

        Please do keep it coming,

        [sitting, wondering when they’re finally going to get it.]

      • Kamal Patel on April 4, 2012 at 18:33

        If you’re going to insult Meredith, akd, carbsane, and Carly, at least think of something slightly entertaining to say. Just ever so slightly entertaining, instead of something that sounds like a robot trying to make a joke. For now, these are off the table:

        “I’m Richard Nikoley, and I get so many hits on my website that I should be lauded for flinging the same boring insults any time I want! Yes, that’s right, 25,245 hits every thirteen hours, can you compete with that?!”

        “Blah blah something cunt la la la la. Also, I’m an anarchist. Yes, that means I’m pretty much the shit, especially since I got 36,235 pageviews this month, up a full 13.43% from last month.”

        Alright, bring it on! Let’s see some moxy.

      • Kamal Patel on April 4, 2012 at 18:44

        [sitting, wondering when they’re finally going to get it.]

        [“it” = doesn’t have anything of substance to say to Emily Deans, instead responds with vague nothings. not sweet nothings, just vague nothings. doesn’t have good retorts to Kurt Harris, chooses to laugh at MRSA fear-mongers, while MRSA kills 19,000 per year in the US, more than does AIDS.]

      • Kamal Patel on April 4, 2012 at 18:46

        Where you at Richard? This is a walk-off. Defend the honor of your blog that gets 1,420.35 page impressions per half hour!


      • Kamal Patel on April 4, 2012 at 18:57

        Richard Nikoley:
        “Meredith: Interestingly, I’d lay odds that between you, me and all the ladies, there’s only one of us that’s not a cocksucker.….not that there’s anything wrong with that.”

        “Yes, obviously I’m aware that a very high percentage of males are of a heterosexual orientation. As are most females. One of the ways of engaging in sexual intercourse is to put your tongue in a woman’s vagina if you are a male, or put your mouth around a penis, if you are a female.

        Now get this: homosexual males, because they like other males, would put THEIR OWN mouths around a man’s penis. That would classify them as “cocksuckers” in derogatory terms.

        Because I can’t think of anything to say, or I don’t have time because I’m busy managing my website that gets 135.76 unique users every fifteen minutes, I’m going to make a vaguely homophobic joke to answer a group of pretty clever ladies. If someone argues with me, yes, I will go ahead and use my patented “If you don’t like this site, fuck off, you don’t have to be here.”

      • Chloe on April 4, 2012 at 18:57

        Kamal, maybe you’ve stunned him into silence for a minute or two. Not that he’s been saying much of substance while he’s around. Anyway, Kamal, you’re funnier than he’ll ever be, even with his 26,234 page hits.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 4, 2012 at 19:18

        “If you’re going to insult Meredith, akd, carbsane, and Carly, at least think of something slightly entertaining to say. ”

        I’ve got a better idea.

        How about your get a blog?


        By the way. I read you the other day on Paleohacks. You’re a pussy-poseur.

        You see, you never ever create anything. You just attempt to be as clever as you can gently tearing down what others create.,

        In short, you’re a parasite.

        But I’m used to it.

      • Chloe on April 4, 2012 at 19:30

        So you’re a pussy-poseur parasite on Paleohacks, Kamal. But you’re not a cunt. I think this means that Richard likes you.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 4, 2012 at 20:11

        I’ll get back to you Patel. Right now I’m doing an Indian chicken curry and the house smells like a restaurant. No shit.

      • Kamal Patel on April 4, 2012 at 20:22

        Love me some chicken tikka masala! Enjoy your meal.

        My pal Aravind (whose favorite word, incidentally, is cunt) caught me eating naan at AHS11. If you write a post about paleo naan, I’ll temporarily forgive you for being unoriginally insulting to my friends.

      • Kamal Patel on April 4, 2012 at 20:36

        Note to any wandering Aravinds: Not implying that said Aravind uses the word in a derogatory fashion, but rather is fascinated by the etymology.

      • Hugh Anderson on April 4, 2012 at 20:55

        Richard is a prick, a cocksucker, unreasonable, misogynistic, aggressive, a disgusting human being, unimaginative, classless, characterless, uncreative, an asshole, possesses a small dick, and is inhumane….to quote some of the “clever” commenters.

        It’s fine to say those things to someone you’ve never met in person but cunt is off limits?

        “you probably don’t even see your own blaring hypocrisy. I’ve known you less than a minute and you are the least humane person I have met today.”
        Isn’t that an inhumane thing to say, to call someone the least humane person you’ve seen all day? What’s that about blaring hypocrisy?

      • Kamal Patel on April 4, 2012 at 21:15

        I don’t feel great arguing with you, since you provided a very clever response to the “Kurt Harris gut autoimmune etc” thread on paleohacks.

        But as you know, certain terms are waaaaay more loaded than others. “You’re a stupid cunt” evokes more emotion than “You are a stupid and inhumane”.

        I know it’s not Richard’s style, but it’s nice to encounter people who don’t purposely hurt others’ feelings. Like Paul Jaminet. Just because these are anonymous people on the internet doesn’t mean that they don’t exist in real life. As a lay Buddhist (and no, Richard, not religious at all), I fail miserably and often in following the simple guidelines to be a nice and good person. But that makes it all the better to see it in other people.

        Blah blah etc etc, I’m sure this has come up on these boards a million times.

      • Hugh Anderson on April 4, 2012 at 23:36

        Don’t worry, I don’t think we’re arguing. I just think the people making a scene about the word lost all credibility by hurling childish insults and being brats about it. If you don’t like it, quietly close your browser tab and leave with some dignity.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 5, 2012 at 02:07

        Gee thanks, Hugh.

        You just ruined my new post idea.

        And it was going to have cunt in the title.

      • mark on April 5, 2012 at 07:00

        Cunt may also refer to:

        Cunt (album), by Australian grindcore band Blood Duster
        Cunt (novel), by Stewart Home
        Cunt: The Movie, a DVD produced by a group of Melbourne high school students
        Cunt: A Declaration of Independence, a 1998 feminist book by Inga Muscio
        Cünt, a variant name for Bekçitepe, Elâzığ Province, Turkey

      • Richard Nikoley on April 5, 2012 at 07:11


        You have your timeline wrong.

        You commented I had no authority to speak on the existence of sky fairies, I replied.

        You then launched into three insulting replies in a row, the last of which was this:

        “with lots of laughing at you and other ignorant superstitious peole……I saw the anti-humanity first hand and rejected it. <—you probably don't even see your own blaring hypocrisy. I've known you less than a minute and you are the least humane person I have met today." That's when you got the C -word back atcha. Go ahead. Scroll up and see for yourself. That said, I'm cool if you are. I never take these things too seriously either way.

      • Brenda on April 5, 2012 at 08:25

        hmmmm….i see…point taken

      • Sean on April 6, 2012 at 06:40

        Not to get into the civility argument, but this is probably as good a place as any to drop in this classic, Frank Zappa on crossfire talking about words.


      • Richard Nikoley on April 6, 2012 at 08:55

        “Frank Zappa on crossfire talking about words.”

        A smart man vs. moral and intellectual midgets.

      • Sean on April 6, 2012 at 09:04

        Damn straight, you fucking cunt.

      • Sarah Madden on April 9, 2012 at 09:56

        Teehee! LMAO about people getting all upset about the word cunt. As an Irish person it’s practically a term of endearment. Typical usage: What’s the craic ya mad cunt ya? Translation: How are you today my fine fellow who is prone to fun and adventure?

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 4, 2012 at 21:19

        But Kamal, it’s peoples CHOICE to be exposed to MRSA in health care facilities, because only elective voluntary libertarian acts are occurring in…

        uhhh never mind….

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 4, 2012 at 21:25

        Parasite or Symbiont?

        Maybe Kamal is a kind of blog geohelminth that co-evolved with the paleo ecosphere and his absence would upset the delicate ecology of our fractious environment to the point where there would be undisciplined mayhem with real violence damaging to the innocent*?

        * This will not make any sense to you unless you spend a few minutes on paleohacks

      • Richard Nikoley on April 4, 2012 at 21:30

        No, he’s a cunt alright.

        But a pussy poseur who doesn’t really create anything, but makes his mainstay attempting to tear down others is far worse.

        How are you doing in the “you saved my life” department, Cloe? Or should I say, cunt Cloe?

      • Richard Nikoley on April 4, 2012 at 21:40


        Thanks for all that and sorry for the delay. Got held up in the spam queue because of more than a coupla links.

        Good. I’m very happy to learn than you’re a real producer of value to people.

        I would never make fun of your website and I’ll look at it later.

        And OK, wasn’t aware I was dissing your friends.

      • Kamal Patel on April 4, 2012 at 21:44

        It’s true. My previous incarnations have caused quite a bit of trouble. Lycos, Altavista, Hotbot, Compuserve, and Netscape all tried to deworm and get rid of me. Look what happened to them. Best to keep your enemies close.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 4, 2012 at 21:47

        Kamal, on the cocksucker deal, Beatrice and I have many gay friends owing to living urban for so long, and the guys always laugh when I call them cocksuckers. Especially the MD psychiatrist.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 4, 2012 at 22:00

        The only God I bow to, Kamal, is whichever one came up with all those complex Indian flavors and aroma, 25 year fan and counting.

        Have actually experimented with making curry from the spices themselves instead of powders.

        I do lots of Thai as well.

      • Kamal Patel on April 4, 2012 at 22:06

        Yeah yeah, okay. I was quite aware that your intentions weren’t homophobic. But anything you say can and will be used against you in the court of comment tirades. Such a fickle, confusing court it is.

        I’ll go back to not hating you now. Hate is very un-dude, according to the coolest religion around (Dudeism!)

      • Evolutionarily on April 5, 2012 at 12:07

        Damn you guys kissed and made up, that didn’t last long.

        You know I did get very interested about Don’s “non-nutritive ingestive behaviours” ideas, despite the yin and yang framing, and was upset to see him discredited so quickly before anyone picked up that bit in particular and ran with it. Good to hear you are exploring it Kamal.

      • Kamal Patel on April 4, 2012 at 22:17

        Dang, we appear to have same culinary tastes. So I will tell you about a theory I’ve been developing…Let’s call it “Factor W” for now.

        Since I’m all into pain research and stuff, I’ve been interested in how cold/heat should be practically applied for injury treatment, both acute and chronic. Capsaicin works topically for pain, not when you swallow it, through activating some interesting receptors. Turmeric, as you know, is awesome for a natural COX inhibitor. Curry has a lot of stuff in it that is cool.

        The exiled Don Matecz talked about non-nutritive plant compounds a lot, but in a wooish way. I’m interested in whether we evolved with certain plants as medicines, and whether or not this differs by specific ancestry. I know you’ve had some shoulder issues. Having had three shoulder surgeries myself, and knowing that topical capsaicin can’t penetrate into the shoulder capsule, I’m trying to work out a combination of natural things you can eat an put on your skin for certain injuries that have enough evidence to recommend.

        Long story short, it’s hard to find evidence, but I still really like chicken tikka.

      • Chloe on April 5, 2012 at 04:34

        Hi Richard. It’s Chloe with an “h”. And no “cunt.” Just Chloe. I’m doing pretty well in the “you saved my life” department, I have to say–all without having a blog that reeks of narcissism and is full of unsubstantiated claims (I refer here to jackkruse.com because I don’t actually read your blog).

      • Aravind on April 5, 2012 at 07:00

        Kamal has misrepresented me. I am very derogatory in the usage of the term. However, when one uses the term “cunty” it takes on a completely different meaning. Cunty is playful, almost a term of endearment if you will.

        When my wife is being a total bitch and my visceral reaction is to ask her “why are you such a cunt”, I catch myself and rephrase as “why are you being so cunty honey”, served with a smile. Tantamount to foreplay in my household.

        Dr Harris – by the way, I’ve been off the grid for nearly 2 months now as part of my Tech Addiction/Reward experiment. Kamal pinged me offline for this thread so I had to oblige. I am delinquent on the guest post for you about Tech Reward because I’ve been “gathering data”. I think I’ve conquered Tech Reward (“mission accomplished” as I wear my flight suit on the carrier).

        Let me tell you that extirpating the Internet vis-a-vis obsessive nutritional research and forum participation has been the greatest improvement to my health, perhaps with the exception of the elimination of the three horsemen. Will share more with you offline.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 5, 2012 at 07:36

        “If you write a post about paleo naan,”

        Yuk. I wouldn’t even attempt that. When I make Indian at home, it’s just the curry & rice. We try to make it to one of the fine restaurants every month or so, and I’ll just go got the naan and take my punishment. And punish me it does, but probably more because I pig out on it than the wheat.

        Yesterday I had a business lunch and we went to an Ethiopian place. First time eating that since a 1991 trip to Djibouti. Afterwards I did a fit of research in injera and if made the traditional way with teff, it’s OK for the gluten intolerant.

      • Tyler on April 5, 2012 at 09:32

        “Afterwards I did a fit of research in injera and if made the traditional way with teff, it’s OK for the gluten intolerant.”

        Of all the things said in the comments here, this was probably the most helpful for me.

        I ate at a nice Ethiopian restaurant last week. Unfortunately their (and it seems most, from what I can tell) injera is made with about half teff and half wheat. I’m hoping to find a restaurant that uses all teff yet, though.

      • Jscott on April 5, 2012 at 10:28

        “The Hyperbole glares so bright I can do nothing but get offended. ”

      • Jo on April 5, 2012 at 10:54

        Thank you Kamal. For saying everything I wanted to.

      • Erik Cisler on April 5, 2012 at 12:46

        How about a little DMSO-cayenne paste?

      • Nance on April 5, 2012 at 13:19

        Tee Hee — yeah, I got it. Too much PH time I guess.

      • Erika on April 5, 2012 at 15:14

        LOL. (That WAS pretty good.)

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 6, 2012 at 17:30

        Great to hear. I’ve been doing much of the same prior to this foray.

      • Nigel Kinbrum on April 6, 2012 at 23:40

        Cunt! Prick! It’s different for Brits, Irish and ANZACs. Where’s LeonRover when you need him?

        Oh, and you’re* a cunt for doing a “lob & run” post that generates a Brazillian comments. I’ve been up all night (ooh-err, missus!). Nerds can’t stop reading, either.

        Mind you, there are some real nuggets of gold here.

        *That’s Richard I’m referring to, not the person whose comment is immediately above mine. I’m in enough shit already!

      • Nigel Kinbrum on April 9, 2012 at 05:13

        “By the way, Sean and Nigel call each other cunt all the time. Makes them laugh.”
        Too fucking right, you cunt!

        P.S. I love how some people get all aerated over the use of a word that means “female front bottom”, which is aesthetically-pleasing to straight men. Calling me a cunt is a compliment.

      • Uncephalized on April 9, 2012 at 08:02

        Kurt, can you please, pretty please do a post on helminths sometime? I have seen you and some others reference them (and it sounds fascinating) but I really, really don’t want to wade through Paleohacks to scrounge little bits of info about them. Or if there’s a good source somewhere out there already? I don’t even know where to start…

      • Chloe on April 9, 2012 at 08:09

        Dr. Harris has recommended the work of Graham Rook before. He’s all over Pubmed. This review article looks pretty useful if you can get a hold of it: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19120493

      • Uncephalized on April 9, 2012 at 14:37

        Awesome, thanks! There was a read-for-free link on that page.

    • mark on April 4, 2012 at 06:26

      Why does the “Sun” always get in the way of a good conversation?

      • Brenda on April 4, 2012 at 10:13

        He lead off his entire blog post with it…..it’s not like I just brought it up. He can call me whatever he wants though, I don’t mind….but I do think it is because something traumatic happened to him….likely around divinity school time…..sorry for that.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 4, 2012 at 10:29


        I count nine years now of blogging, from time to time taking pot shots at religion for fun & profit, because I find it silly and delusional and so many people treat it as though they invented it. It’s just so damn funny on so many levels and I’m just a sucker for it.

        But most particularly, I’m a sucker for motivating people to come to MY blog, weigh in in comments to psychoanalyze me and muse over how I have a chip on my shoulder because 20 some years ago I laid on a couch in France, contemplated, laughed my ass off at myself, raised a middle finger to the heavens and never looked back.

      • Brenda on April 4, 2012 at 15:01

        Study abroad?

      • Richard Nikoley on April 4, 2012 at 15:48

        Lived and worked five years in Asia then 2 in Europe.

      • Bill on April 9, 2012 at 06:56

        Have you ever been to Scunthorpe?

      • Richard Nikoley on April 9, 2012 at 07:48

        No Bill, not even the UK. I was in France and other than Belgium and Amserdam, only visited countries in the south like Itally, Greece, Turkey, etc.

      • Bill on April 9, 2012 at 11:11

        It’s the only place name I know with “cunt” in it…..

  17. Colleen on April 3, 2012 at 16:14

    I have to say when I first heard about Jack’s cold immersion therapy, I thought no way. But after hearing about the benefits, I decided to try it in my daughter’s 50 degree pool. I experienced that exhilaration you mentioned, Richard. I’m an avid reader over at the Kruse blog and I think he’s really shaken things up for a lot of people. All his ideas may not work for everyone but I love his quest for optimal health. And I love the way he interacts with people and gives of himself and his knowledge. How many neurosurgeons do that?

    Everyone has to read his theories for themselves, but the one thing you have to say about Jack is that he cares. That’s pretty amazing in today’s world.

  18. Ivy on April 3, 2012 at 16:15

    I’ve been following JKs blog since July 2011. While I maybe labelled as a stupid follower of a “guru”, my principle is a simple n=1. I’m willing to try. If it works, I’ll stick with it. If it gives me amazing results, major bonus in my book!! It’s been nothing short of a triumphant journey so far. I have to say, his stuff makes much more sense if you do some testing of your bloods every few months, that way I’ve been able to see changes, pinpoint issues and really apply the rules according to JK properly! CT is amazing, and no, he didn’t invent it, but his guide towards food, exercise, timing, sleep and CT all made massive changes for the positive in my life and for my health.
    Sometimes it’s a blessing not being a scientist. By simply trying I learnt and gained benefits. I should add that normal paleo never did anything like that for me.

  19. Erik on April 3, 2012 at 16:17

    Anyone here familiar with Wim Hof, the dutch “iceman?” Been on TV for stunts like near-naked barefoot marathons in the arctic, ascent of kilimanjaro similarly attired, and even most of the way up everest? He has a lot to say about the effects of cold on human physiology, and some very interesting research is being done on him (aside from controlling his body temperature, an in-hospital experiment found him able to entirely suppress his body’s response to a massive endotoxin dose).

    He put out a book recently “becoming the iceman,” with a Penn state student who he took on as a student of sorts. Unfortunately, the book is only a little more readable than Kruse’s blog, though certainly less technical, and a lot of us would probably consider much of it a little far to the “woo” side of the spectrum, but… the cold-endurance feats, the controlled lab experiments and the potential benefits are all documented and solid. Really needs some better coverage.

  20. Sally on April 3, 2012 at 16:18


    I agree. I look forward to my cold baths, they are calming for some strange reason. I still don’t understand the muscle growth, when I’m not exercising at all, but I’ll take it. :)

    I didn’t lose any weight with the Leptin Reset, but my sleep did improve substantially. CT, however, after a month, really seems to be removing tummy fat. I’m sold on the results!

    • Sally on April 4, 2012 at 06:34

      I would welcome any well-researched and considered objections to CT and the Leptin Reset. If there is some reason I should stop, I’d like to know. But since I’ve already experienced some surprisingly nice benefits from CT, objections to Dr. Kruse’s writing style, tone, or to his flow of logic pertaining to evolution… just won’t convince me.

      I’ve taken some labs before I started, and I’ll be very interested to see what changes they’ll show in the future.

  21. Mike on April 3, 2012 at 16:21

    I’m not a scientist, doctor or evolution expert. What I do know is its working for me. I found Jack on the Paleo Summit with Sean Croxton. I had an open mind about every speaker and Jack jumped out at me.

    I have followed the Leptin rx for one month. Monday I weighed myself on the 30 day deadline and I’m down 22lbs and more muscular.

    I have been following the CT Protocol and I can stay in for 15-20 minutes at 47 degree’s. The fact that I have gained muscle was shocking to me since I have a dislocated shoulder and clavicle and cannot workout.

    I don’t follow blindly nor without lots of research. I have read Robb wolf’s book 3 times and use his matrix. I have been 100% not 80/20 or 90/10 and it was hard at first. For the first time in my life I don’t have cravings.

    So do I like what Jack is doing absolutely. I see it as another option for people. Will it make me live longer maybe not, but I’m living better now.

    • Mike on April 3, 2012 at 16:28

      You ate a large breakfast, did not snack and ate a clean diet for a month. I am quite certain if you ate a 40 gram breakfast, had some coffee at 10 am and and turned on your computer at night you would have similar results. Perhaps the clean diet helped you gain muscle, but resetting your leptin and submerging yourself in water is probably not the reason you did well. I am truly amazed that people are following this.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 3, 2012 at 17:57


        Get yourself really really cold to the bone for a good long while.

        _Then_ be “truly amazed_.”

      • Mike on April 4, 2012 at 17:33

        That sounds like an epic idea

      • CG on April 5, 2012 at 14:52

        Shrinkage sounds like a minutiae in this scenario.

    • Brian on April 3, 2012 at 18:59

      Mike: you changed many things in your lifestyle. One or multiple of them helped you, one or multiple of them may have made no difference, and one or multiple of them may have actually reduced your progress. Given how many interdependent variables you have changed, you cannot claim to know which is which.

  22. Sally on April 3, 2012 at 16:24

    Mike, oh yes the cravings!
    I totally forgot about them. I plain just don’t have them any more. That was one of the first benefits of CT.
    It’s truly amazing. Instant willpower!

    • golooraam on April 5, 2012 at 11:29

      I found the same thing
      I have busted through weight plateaus four out of the last 5 weeks by adding CT sessions and having my hunger go way down

  23. Mike on April 3, 2012 at 16:29

    I am happy the Krusers have removed their ice vests and joined the conversation here

    • golooraam on April 5, 2012 at 11:26

      who said I removed it? :)

  24. Andy on April 3, 2012 at 16:31

    I think the thing that annoys me is that while there are a few _extremely_ valid criticisms of Jack out there, most of them seem to bubble down to ad hominems and taking pot shots at things he’s said out of context. It’s easy to argue agains the “eat no carbs” (see Jake.S above) strawman, where as it’s a lot harder to argue agains “eat seasonally” and “if you abuse your body clock you’ll most likely get sick” or especially “sleep is damn important, optimize it”.

    Like it or not – not one of the self appointed prophets of the paleoshpere that have ragged on him have had the cohones to run their telomere lengths to rub in his face (or maybe they have…) If he’s actually a dangerous quack you’d think that someone would have the balls to prove it.

    • Mike on April 3, 2012 at 16:34

      Run their telomere lengths, LOL……

      • Andy on April 3, 2012 at 16:58

        Yay irrelevant handwaving! Enjoying your comment spam, feel free to add something worth reading occasionally #dontfeedthetrolls

      • Mike on April 3, 2012 at 17:16

        I am very upset that you don’t enjoy my posts. I would write a longer response, but I am shivering after being fully submerged in my cold pool for 4 hours. I find it funny that you are the decision maker as to what criticisms of Dr Kruse are valid. I for one am just shocked at the stupidity of people who are buying in to his bullshit

      • Andy on April 3, 2012 at 17:42

        Awh come on Mike, that’s practically a tautology. Stupid people are everywhere, bullshit is everywhere, stupid people believe anything, hence stupid people believe bullshit. Follows that the more bullshit something is the stupider the average adherent…

        On to more salient grounds, I’m not anymore an arbiter of valid logic than you are, it’s just since the paleo elite love pointing out how logical and rational they are I find it bizarre seeing smart people getting all breathless and attacking someone’s ideology on retarded grounds.

      • Mike on April 3, 2012 at 17:56

        My only issue with Jack was the MRSA stunt. I found it appalling. The rest of the stuff, if it helps great, but if not it can’t hurt. He is very giving of his time and his advice. I just would love to know what is fact and what is his opinion. His writing is mind boggling

    • Evelyn aka CarbSane on April 4, 2012 at 15:26

      Well, at least in his interview with Sean he cautioned people not to try to do CT with metal. Who knows, someone might just have tried lying on a frozen metal slab after listening to Jack. Apparently he did something of the sort … if you believe what he says that is.

  25. Michael on April 3, 2012 at 16:32

    God Richard! You certainly can stir a pot! So fun to read your blog.

  26. vwaggs on April 3, 2012 at 16:34

    Colleen I completely agree with you! I don’t understand why people think his blog is so tough to understand. So he has some typos! The main message is always clear. His brain thinks faster than his hands can type. I appreciate the time and energy he takes to answer questions and put the information out there.

    • eva on April 4, 2012 at 01:39

      agreed :) except the typos and his love of paragraph-long sentences – ive had no problem. maybe not having english as my mothertongue actually helps

  27. rob on April 3, 2012 at 16:38

    I think to put it to a true test you should utilize a rectal thermometer at 15 minute intervals throughout your waking hours. Chart your internal temperature, graph it against your glucose levels. If you have a willing partner you could also utilize the sleeping hours. Have him/her jab you with a glucose meter and stick the thermometer up your ass while you sleep. Also keep a journal of your dreams during the experiment. Give it a try for three months, it is hard to define success with this method but I figure spending three months getting jabbed and probed is a win/win no matter how you look at it.

  28. Evo Mama on April 3, 2012 at 16:40

    I started the Leptin Reset with CT at about the same time you decided to add carbs to your diet. Since then, I’ve lost nearly 10 pounds (145-135), an inch off my waist, found increased energy, strength, and libido, and started feeling better emotionally (I’m psyched it’s working because I don’t really dig potatoes). So long as I’m experiencing these results, I’ll be enjoying the ride. The doc may be controversial, and not always congenial, but he’s always engaging, entertaining, often insightful, and I believe genuinely interested in helping others and improving medicine.

  29. vwaggs on April 3, 2012 at 16:42

    I guess I should have posted my successes as well! I have tried everything to stop my cravings and CT was the ONLY thing that has ever worked. I did the reset for months and it helped but once I started CT I didn’t have cravings for anything bad anymore. Amazing! I still hate the baths but I hate them less every time I do them. The results keep me going. I have lost cellulite on my thighs and butt where even at my goal weight I had dimples. I spot ice on those areas while in the bath. I am steadly losing my last 5 lbs where I couldn’t lose them before no matter what I did. My sleep has also improved also. I have never felt so great!

  30. Colleen on April 3, 2012 at 16:45

    Mike, that’s where Jack differs from a lot of paleo people. He challenges us to run labs and see how they improve on his protocol. My hs-CRP was 5 and I had a lot of trouble getting it down. I’ve been low carb a long time too, but I ate every 2-3 hours. I ate eggs for breakfast, but certainly not 50 grams of protein. I started the leptin reset last summer and by late December my hs-Crp was .1. that’s POINT ONE. It was the timing and the big breakfast. That was all I did differently.

    And Richard, not everyone has the bad experience with Christians that you have had. I realize some people don’t represent God well, to our shame. But that doesn’t mean he isn’t there. Your lack of belief that God exists doesn’t change the fact. I realize you think I’m stupid and superstitious and that’s okay. I can think you’re pig headed and blind to the truth. But we’re all still people making sense of the world and we can be cordial and polite. :)

    • Richard Nikoley on April 3, 2012 at 18:17


      Unfortunately’ by your second para you did a disservice to Jack. Now your first it totally dismissible, because you openly admit to belief if fairies,

      Too bad. Hope it’s worth it for you.

      • Dana on April 3, 2012 at 19:21

        You’re just as engaged in superstition as she is. You can’t prove God *doesn’t* exist. There’s no scientific way to do it because you can’t prove a negative.

        At least be an agnostic. It’s the most intellectually defensible position. Being able to say “I don’t know” is a strength, not a weakness.

        I joke that I’m a militant agnostic: I don’t know, and you don’t either. Got it off a bumper sticker, but it works for me.

      • Kamal Patel on April 3, 2012 at 19:40

        Dana, I would love to vehemently argue with you about Dr. Kruse, but can no longer do it after you just championed militant agnosticism. Of course, there are varying degrees of agnosticism…

      • Kamal Patel on April 3, 2012 at 19:43

        Meaning: I’ve always been a big fan of the ability to say “I do not know”.

        “Teach thy tongue to say ‘I do not know,’ and thou shalt progress.” –Maimonides

        Obviously, some can be pretty darn sure that no one can know about the existence of deities, which really straddles the agnostic/atheist line. None of this made sense to the missionary who tried to convert me on the subway last week though.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 3, 2012 at 21:36

        Dana, are you agnostic about Unicorns, Santa (“God Lite”), the Easter Bunny?

        Agnosticism is merely avoiding the question. It is an _anti-intellectual_ position.

        But hey, everyone gets to be as stupid as they want, go to hell in their own go-carts, etc, etc.

      • mark on April 4, 2012 at 06:38

        wow – you religious folk really need to understand that ALL religion is from the mythology of the “sun” god and early astronomy – yes Science! LOL

      • Joseph Fetz on April 4, 2012 at 10:11

        “Agnosticism is merely avoiding the question”

        Yes and no. I consider myself an agnostic-atheist. I don’t avoid the question, I just admit that I will probably never know the answer definitively. However, by use of reason I can conclude that there is absolutely no god, and I can defend this position in debate.

        BTW, I used to be a straight atheist until I realized that humans aren’t some magical species that can understand all things. I do take into account that there may exist things in this universe that are beyond human understanding. Also, I cannot prove that there is or is not god other than by the use of human reason, which is only applicable to human interaction, not that of the universe as a whole. Thus, I took it down a notch and admit that I can only know of what I can conceive of and/or understand. Anyhow, that is why I am an agnostic-atheist rather than an agnostic or an atheist. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 4, 2012 at 10:20

        Joseph, where I’m coming from is that god is simply an arbitrary assertion which amounts to a primitive attempt to “explain things” by means of evading explaining anything.

        I could just as easily assert that the key to life is getting flies to fly up your butt. There’s simply no need to be agnostic about such a wild ass assertion.

      • Joseph Fetz on April 4, 2012 at 10:44

        Ah, I got ya. I was sitting here scratching my head initially, because I never avoid the question of life and existence. In fact, it is a question that I think about a lot. Strangely, the flies up the butt thing made your position crystal clear AND I agree.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 4, 2012 at 10:59

        No, wait, Joseph. You’ve ruined everything. Meeting of the minds is never supposed to happen on the Internet after a mere two short comments.

      • mark on April 4, 2012 at 11:29


        I find it humerous that no other species on earth worries about “God” except us. What does that tell you…? (Hint: Humans are mostly fucking nuts) As soon as people realize “you” are here now on this earth for this life only, eventually feeding the maggots and trees when your heart stops beating, we can move on. *moves horse to water*

      • Leigh on April 4, 2012 at 13:22

        They don’t worry about whether they should eat bananas in December, either. Or the meaning of life or the path to happiness or how to help those less fortunate or any of the other worthless things we silly sentient beings fuss about.

      • Joseph Fetz on April 4, 2012 at 14:10

        Haha! It happens. I have two primary hobbies in life: thinking and kicking ass (figuratively), and those aren’t mutually exclusive.

      • Tracy on April 9, 2012 at 09:52

        Ack – this drives me NUTS. The term atheist, like theist, refers to belief – NOT knowledge (just as gnostic and agnostic refer to knowledge, not belief).

        ie: I am agnostic atheist – don’t know with any degree of certainty whether any sort of god exists, don’t believe any of the versions that have been served forth regarding any gods thus far. I take the null hypothesis then, that absent any good evidence for the existence of a god, there’s no reason to believe that a god exists.

        Most atheists (and most theists, for that matter) are also agnostic. Most theists are also atheists regarding gods other than the one they happen to believe in (and are pretty gnostic about it too!)

        (Side note: a person who does not believe in any of the god claims they have been presented with is under no obligation to prove that said gods do not exist, as they are not the ones making a claim – they are rejecting a claim. If you tell me that you have a magical talking tapeworm named Timmy who lives in your butt, it aint up to me to prove that you don’t.)

  31. Will on April 3, 2012 at 16:45

    i can understand everything Dr. Kruse writes, somtimes having to consult wikipedia. but then I have a degrees in physics & chemistry. Sometimes, when u cannot understand something, it could be you! he thinks & writes at a detailed level. some people like waving their hands in the air, some llike details.

    Now as far as the 30 or such grams of protein w/i 30 minutes of waking & cold thermogenesis. It is old hat, i don’t know why it’s controversial. Read “the 48 hour body” by tim ferris. it is all in there!

  32. Steven on April 3, 2012 at 16:52

    If it works for you, then he deserves a big thank you. if it doesn’y, no harm done and move along. Ive actually been trying the Cold adaptations, and only having been at it for a week, I say the same – kinda addictive.. need it more and more.. and WOW, for ME.. I haven’t slept as good.. well.. ever that I can remember. So if I get no other improvement or changes in body comp or anything, I’ll keep doing it and thank Jack for the restful sleep and the wonderful feeling I have in the morning. I thought Paleo alone made me feel great.. I had no idea you could feel this good. )

    And for all the people who think you need carbs – I haven’t had a non-vegetable or fruit carb in over a year. When I do have fruit, it may be one small piece every now and then, and never eat a starchy carb. BodyFat = 8% by DEXA, 211#, 6’1, 47 years old…. Low Carb Paleo Works…. Add a little n=1 extreme experimentation and who knows……

    Personally, I think we should thank the radical thinkers, where would we be without them?

  33. Adam on April 3, 2012 at 16:57

    Dr.Kruse is very hard to read- but as an engineer I like a good puzzle and have read and re read all of the ramblings, follow-ups, and comments. His theory intrigues me – and contrary to most of the complaints from the “paleo kids” as he calls them, most of his theory is based on neural paths, chemical signaling in the body, interaction with the environment, light etc…he lays it out in excruciating detail if you can read it.

    On the evolutionary biology part -again some people have not read at all or close enough. His ancient pathway is not about ice age man, or primates, but it appears his theory goes much further back. Theorising the adaptations the earliest mammals would have had to survive KT event – the end of dinosaurs and it’s from these mammals the rise of mammals came. In a very short timeframe they had to survive a huge conflagration, oxygen % changes, wild global temperature changes, etc…all though he hasn’t let it drip out yet it appears Factor X may tie in here.

    I have also seen people freaking out over the CT. I don’t know about others but my n=1 following his ramp up suggestions have had nothing but spectacular results. If someone had told me two months ago that I could sit up to my neck in 45F degree water for a full hour without having my core temp drop, get out and be completely warm in 30 minutes – I would have said they are crazy too! However that is exactly what I have been doing nightly. Sleep is super solid, appetite destroyed, and strength is awesome with two 20 minute sessions a week.

    I have been losing weight for three years now from a high of 415 to a low of 235lbs. Mostly low carb paleo and lift heavy things ala Mark Sisson. I had been stuck for the last six months, tried IF, changed out some fats for sweet potato, tried less exercise, more exercise, nothing worked. I had become lethargic and something was not right – at the end of the year 4 inches had appeared back on the waistline. I started Dr.kruse’s leptin Rx in January and CT in February – the 4 inches are gone, I have energy again, and body comp is moving again .I am not qualified nor do I think anyone is without experimentation of proving/disproving Dr.kruse theory is entirely correct or incorrect. To me it makes sense and is working. – is it placebo effect? Maybe, but at this point I don’t give two shits, nor do I care what all the paleo kids/luminaries think , it is working for me!

    In the end it doesn’t matter to Dr.Kruse he seems to be genuinely interested in helping others. He has to be to spend so much time writing, commenting, etc….or maybe he is just batshit crazy. Right now I am betting on the former not the latter.

    Been reading your blog the whole time I have been changing and appreciate your common sense approach to this and everything else. Just hope the rest of the paleosphere can put aside the vitriol and take some time to re-examine their notions and at least read the man’s work before mis quoting it and trying to hang him with it. I’m sorry for those who want to be fucknuts and criticize him and then say they can without reading his work because it is long is rambling is bullshit to me. If you want to criticize the man read it all and be informed – if not STFU.

    Thanks again – always a big fan of yours!

    • Mike on April 3, 2012 at 17:07

      I have read all of his posts with a thesaurus in hand while fully submerged in 50 degree water. This guy is so full of crap. It is shocking to me that people are wrapping themselves in vests with ice, trying to slim down their thighs with ice and submerging themselves in ice water. I have read the posts and have tried to correlate the citations with “facts” and it is impossible. I would feel much more comfortable if he admitted this was his opinion, but he speaks as if load of bullshit is fact. I have asked some questions and have been told to check any biochemistry textbook.

      • Larry on April 3, 2012 at 19:26


        Why the fuck are you so condescending. Your reply to Adam was total bullshit. Why the fuck would you care if Adam found something that has worked for him. We get the idea, you think Jack Kruse is full of shit. Big deal. Get over yourself & if people are finding that it works for them why do you give two shits.

      • Mike on April 4, 2012 at 17:40

        Don’t get your panties in an uproar. I would like to know what is fact and what is fiction in the good doctors posts. He posts citations at the bottom of every one of his manifestos. I have looked these up to look for where he gets this stuff and I can’t find it. You are a genius. I said he is full of shit multiple times and you post that “We get the idea, you think Jack Kruse is full of shit. ” Thank you Captain Obvious.

      • julia on April 4, 2012 at 01:17

        perhaps he is wrong but i want to know then how i keep losing weight and tightening my skin more each day using cold water submersion? can you tell me how that is working without me changing anything else in my life?

  34. PhoenixRising on April 3, 2012 at 17:07

    For the record, I like the guy. I read the stuff on his website, then googled and read every journal article I could find on cold thermogenesis, BAT, leptin … all of it.

    Two weeks later I decided it was a go for me: Leptin reset, CT daily … for god’s sake I even made a batch of bone broth today! I don’t know if there’s anything to it yet. But I’m willing to give it a try. The science and the logic behind it is there.

    As far as his writing goes … doesn’t matter how you describe moving me from point A to point B. All I care is that I eventually get to point B. So I really don’t care if he doesn’t punctuate properly on his website.

    And frankly I think that JK’s protocol for optimal health is alot safer than some of the things that doctors have done to me in the name of health over the past 50 years or so of my life.

  35. ATH on April 3, 2012 at 17:40

    Jack is a complete quack, the Orly Taitz of the paleo movement. Each of his theories are built on a grain of truth (typically stolen from others without attribution) and then driven to such ridiculous and unscientific conclusions (like a conspiracy theory). Anyone with a inkling of evolutionary or biochemistry knowledge could not ever take this man seriously. His willingness to give specific unsolicited medical advice online should alone be enough to revoke his medical license, now he’s admitting in a TED talk to exposing others to a dangerous pathogen. Why so many paleosphere fail to see this quackery is beyond me. He’s done more to set back the paleo movement than anyone IMO. People are going to get hurt with his CT protocol, its just a matter of time.

  36. Aeris on April 3, 2012 at 17:48

    What a great article Richard.

    I stopped reading most “paleo” blogs a few months ago when I added potatoes and rice back into my diet due to the addition of a 3x week weight training program, but yours is one “paleo” blog I have become interested in again. I love your individualist approach to things and the fact that you don’t suspend your critical thinking or (especially in this post) take sides when you don’t know the facts. I have myself wondered about Jack Kruse and I have thought of him sometimes as a total nutjob and sometimes as a genius, but I think most of the time I don’t really have an opinion of him because just like you, I simply don’t know the facts.

    Being from India though, I do know that cold baths were somewhat commonplace in the older civilizations and it’s not uncommon to see temples and ashrams with areas in which to take cold baths. Not sure about the water temperature in there, but it was pretty damn cold :)

    Of course I’m not saying this means Jack Kruse’s stuff is legit, it just didn’t seem to me like an unusual or unique concept and has roots throughout history.

    • Richard Nikoley on April 3, 2012 at 19:29


      Thanks, but it’s all beside the point, the history, culture , all of it.

      Jack used MRSA and by God, we,ve got him nailed, he didn’t actually hurt anyone, mond you, but HE COULD HAVE.

      • Aeris on April 3, 2012 at 21:40

        Hah! HE COULD HAVE. Oh noes.

        Never mind the fact that most paleo blogs that I’ve visited have and do give out blanket recommendations like low carb, intermittent fasting, no potatoes/rice. Heck, some people I know have stopped eating anything but meat (no veggies either!). And they plan to continue doing this forever. A lot of ladies I know have stopped losing any fat and feel fatigued all day on paleo as well as crossfit but won’t eat a freaking starchy carb because they have “faith” in their diet.

        My point is that there are several extreme protocols on paleo and a lot of them help people but are also hurting some people. Why is CT causing such a stir?

        BTW : I love how Dr Kruse is taking it! Right or not, that guy has balls!

  37. DebbieH on April 3, 2012 at 18:00

    I suffered from horrible depression and adrenal fatigue, body temperature 94 degrees, disordered eating (recovered from 20 years bulimia but still starving during the day and binging at night). I felt like there was no hope for me after many docs and a very smart naturopath (6-7 year search)! I was sensitive to almost every natural remedy that could have been helpful,Resveratrol, CoQ10, alpha lipoic acid, St John’s wort, astaxanthin, taurine, tyrosine, glutamine, tryptophan, spirulina, OK, you get the idea.

    I started the GAPS diet for leaky gut, but Mark’s Daily Apple has better recipes : ). Enter that crazy guy Dr. Kruse. I read about Leptin reset for 2 months before being willing to eat breakfast and skip the nightly binge. Anyone who has been eating disordered will realize this is huge. The payoffs for doing the reset were MORE HUGE! My anxiety, depression, and adrenal problems were close to gone after about 3 months.

    Then the crazy doctor started talking about sitting in a cold bathtub. I knew I would NEVER do this because after all of my years of being cold, I would seriously rather eat a spider to heal my body than to sit in a cold tub. So once again I read about all of the other people sitting in a cold tub for 2 months before I would try. So now, of course, I’m sitting in a cold tub every day and feeling so good that I have other people thinking about doing it, too.

    So, when the Doc starts talking about factor X, I’m sure I will wait until everyone else tries the experiment. And then will I do it? Hmmmm….I’m pretty thankful for my current progress so I’m not so sure.

  38. Kpcst on April 3, 2012 at 18:17

    I heard about eating “paleo” a few years ago. I picked up a few books, read a few blogs and decided to give it a try. It worked. I was in decent shape and just got better. I dropped about twenty pounds among other things. People thought I was stupid and couldn’t believe I stopped eating sugar and pizza etc.. Now, there are 7 of the ten people in my office who are paleo and very successful. I stumbled across jacks blog, read it, and found it intriguing. Just like paleo, people think it’s crazy and unrealistic. I have been doing it for 3 weeks and feel like it is beneficial. I am going to stick with it for 90 days. I had the blood tests done. I had a dexa scan. I am taking notes on it and when my 90 days are up, I will make my decision for me. But I am buying in, bc you can’t stick with it if you don’t believe in it. I have enough common sense to monitor myself and any dangers associated with any part of CT protocol. Worth a try, just like paleo was. I’ve never had a chronic health problem or been overweight , I just like being my best. We shall see…. And yes this was written on my iPad in 58 degree water. Don’t worry, I’m ok.

  39. Robin on April 3, 2012 at 18:29

    I always find it amazing that some will read about a new or different thought or idea and immediately dismiss it out of hand. That is the method that most in conventional medicine use. ‘If I didn’t learn it in med school, it cannot possibly be true. The government agencies say blah, blah, blah. All the “sheeple” line up for their flu shots and stuff whole grains and sugar into their bodies-but it’s low fat!, and wonder why they are always catching that virus that is going around and keep adding pounds-next up diabetes, heart disease…I applaud Jack Kruse’s thoughts and ideas. He has the courage to publicly claim his ideas and experiments.

    I agree, his blogs a sometimes difficult to read, with all the typos, grammar, and punctuation errors. I’m an RN, have taken chemistry and microbiology, but it is a bit rusty, yet still, I can grasp a lot of the science that he writes. Is it all 100% accurate? I cannot really say, I don’t have the level of scientific understanding I’d need to know for sure. But, he puts it out there. If he has it wrong, then the scientists out there need to call him on it-directly.

    He presents an alternative, and he seems to genuinely want to help people. I love that he sells no products (well except for his 12.50 e-cookbook), and offers his input freely for all who have questions. Yes, sometimes he is curt in his responses, but if you want warm and fuzzy, a surgeon is not usually the person to ask. (A generalization I admit, but the majority of surgeons tend to be straightforward and often blunt-perhaps it stems from their specialty?)

    If more in modern medicine would look outside their boxes, and incorporate some of the newer research out there, then perhaps the average American would not be in such dire straits health-wise. Modern medicine cures nothing, it only creates chronic illness. Jack Kruse is at least taking a step up from conventional medicine, and offering a method for health, for cure. His ideas may be unusual and out of the mainstream, but the method he offers is getting positive results for many people.

    In the meantime, those who are afraid of radical ideas, keep eating your low-fat and whole grains. Keep swallowing those statins, and scope out the pharmacy with the lowest prices on syringes-for the diabetes that is in your near future.

    • Shari Bambino on April 3, 2012 at 18:43

      Oh dear, sweet Robin you had better sit down honey

      Read it and weep. He always said he would reveal all in good time. A few days ago he pulled his pants down and bent over in front of all of us it would appear.

      • Adam on April 3, 2012 at 18:56

        You got him! The blog, comments, and forum are all free still (so basically all the information) If you want to chat with him or have a personal consult it costs money…

        So evil! Another condescending PH who doesn’t read critically or closely.

      • Leigh on April 3, 2012 at 19:01

        Exactly, this is an additional option so that he is not actually practicing medicine in an inappropriate way on the internet.

        Despite objections to the contrary above, he has been meticulous since the beginning, at least on MDA, his blog, and his forum, not to give out specific medical advice to specific people’s situations, but to give broad advice the way many internet-savvy doctors do.

      • Robin on April 3, 2012 at 18:57

        Oh, that’s great. I totally missed it. Ah, well, at least my delusion was fun while it lasted.

      • Robin on April 3, 2012 at 19:00

        But, that still does not negate the valuable information he offers. I still believe that the information he shares is useful and should make anyone with functional brain cells – think and research.

  40. Leigh on April 3, 2012 at 18:35

    “The solid truth is I have no clue”

    What follows this is a great paragraph! Consider this my ‘like’ button.

  41. Evolutionarily on April 4, 2012 at 08:40

    Richard, how the fuck did you get to see the TEDx video despite not being in attendance? Give us your hookup!

    • Richard Nikoley on April 4, 2012 at 09:26

      Someone recorded the Ustream and gave me the password on their site, but asked I not give it out. That’s what gave me the idea for this post.

      I’m sure it will be up on TED soon.

  42. Chris on April 3, 2012 at 18:54

    CT kind of reminds me of when I used to go surfing all the time up here in Northern California without a wetsuit. I remember everyone telling me I’d get frost bite or freeze to death.

    I’m still standing.

  43. Dana on April 3, 2012 at 19:31

    I’ve only read Kruse so far, not followed anything he’s said. My main obstacle is I’m slow going in the morning. Much less so since I dropped most carbs (I’m sick of morons going on about low-carbers not eating carbs, guess what, vegetables and low-sugar fruits and nuts are carbs), but I still take a while to get around to cooking. So the breakfast-half-an-hour-after-waking thang just ain’t happening yet, if ever.

    As a low-carber I’m used to being shit on by most Paleo people even though it’s beginning to look like I’ll be eating more like the starch-free ones after all (in another couple of weeks I’ll re-introduce dairy and then we’ll *really* see). I’m not surprised they’re dogpiling Kruse too. I just plain don’t follow the more blog-political ones anymore. I tend to read the cookbook authors and the busy moms. My blood pressure is beautiful right now (108/56 or 106/58, can’t remember which now but as of last month) and I don’t need to elevate it with other people’s pettiness and stupidity.

    Rice ain’t Paleo and potatoes are a poverty food, as in the tribe can’t follow the herds so they’re stuck digging roots. Eat ’em if you want to. Make sure you’re getting enough animal foods to make up for the nutrients you are stripping with all that extra starch. It “burns” (so to speak) B vitamins, chromium, and sulfur at the very least (the latter being a major component of insulin).

    But people avoid those foods for a reason and Paleo’s just a convenient label. They just plain do not agree with all of us. Not even Asians, who might not be getting fat as much as Americans but who sure do have other health issues from all that birdseed. Go figure.

    Anyway. Yeah. Kruse. Interesting. There have always been people like him willing to push boundaries. Quit flinging poo at him, Paleo people, and take his words on their own merits–and I mean all of them, not just you didn’t like one thing he said so you’ve decided it’s all bullshit. Don’t talk to me about science if that’s how you handle life.

  44. Conscious Kitty on April 3, 2012 at 20:15

    I saw Jack Kruse speak at Paleo FX. When he spoke about Cold Thermagenisis, I was like, NO WAY, F that, as if!! I am one of those people who has to be bundles up all time and I hate that I live in Canada, just because of the cold. Anyways, by the end of his presentation, I felt I have to try it. The results he demonstrated through his examples, made me really believe it could be a cure for many things. He really jazzed up everyone in the crowd!

    Of course I am a total baby and haven’t tried this yet, but I intend to start with the cold face baths this week. BUT CRAZY THING! I have two friends who were at the event and started immediately after returning home. They report the same addictive feelings you had about the baths. They love them and they are excited about taking it further and further. I can’t believe it, but they are also really getting me motivated to give it a try. Although I will ease into it so the baths coincide with summer likely.

    I have read a lot of negative comments in the Paleo community about Dr Kruse as well and I had no idea what to make of him, but I can tell you one thing, once you see him speak in person on his ideologies, you cannot help but be inspired and curious enough to try things out for yourself. I am like you, I take what seems logical and test it out on myself, keeping what works. This is something I never would have tried on my own or even believed in based on logic until I heard Jack speak, but now I am only excited to hear more from him based on what you and my friends have reported about your own experiences with cold thermagenisis. I hope TedX posts his video soon!

    • Karen P. on April 5, 2012 at 12:50

      In no way am I trying to discount your experience, but as a counter-point, I want to say that seeing him speak at Paleo FX had the opposite effect on me.

      He insulted the audience numerous times by telling us that what he was saying was going over our heads. He threw out Hallmark-card sentiments and metaphors that would insult the intelligence of a third grader. And with the flair of a spiritual guru, he made it sound like destiny that certain people were in the audience to see him. He said things like, “I’ve never even told my wife this story.”

      Sorry, but it just makes me want to vomit.

      • Lululemon on April 5, 2012 at 14:33

        I kept an open mind right up until I posted some labs at MDA and he insulted me personally in a public forum. Essentially he said either I lied about my labs or about my diet. No one gives him permission to attack a person in that fashion. I deeply considered writing to Mark Sisson and expressing my concerns.

        Now that he has gone off on the CT tangent I think a lot of people who initially were intrigued are now questioning his logic and reasoning. But for me, it was a personal attack.

        Also I thought he was from New York originally. So where does his fakeo assed Texas accent come from? I went to Vandy to grad school and never acquired a Tennessee accent. Just an odd aside, sorry Karen, but it all fits with his being a total buffoon. Right or wrong, no one has the right to be so outright rude.

      • Leigh on April 5, 2012 at 14:57

        Are you kidding me? A southern accent? Totally LOL. Born and bred in the South right here, and he sounds totally like a Yankee to me. There must be a few acquired points in his speech, like my Yankee-born hubbie has after a few decades here.

        Nope, rude is never okay.

      • Evelyn aka CarbSane on April 6, 2012 at 04:49

        He may sound Yankee to you, but not to this born and bred native New Yawker. Some pick up accents more than others. When we visit hubs’ Canadian relatives for just a few days, I come back talking like them. When we used to spend a week or two in Fla with vacationing North Carolinians I used to come back talking like them. So this part of Jack is probably genuine. I’d never guess listening to him he grew up in NYC.

      • Lululemon on April 6, 2012 at 07:52

        The first time I heard him speak was his initial podcast on Jimmy Moore. I believe it was about the same time as he launched his blog, so that puts it in June or so of last year. He had no southern accent, no all you alls, no mahn instead of mine. Did not sound like a Brooklyn or Bronx New Yawker, rather like a Westchester preppie.

        Fast forward to latest podcasts. No more cultured speech. It’s not an acquired Tennessee accent. I spend 4 yrs living in Tennessee and no one there sounds like him. Not even the most twangy country music stars.

  45. Unimpressed on April 3, 2012 at 22:30

    You should read Taleb. Your ignorance is great and your arrogance is greater. Deep human truth? “Iatrogenic is defined as disease caused by medical examination or treatment.” Humans increased their life expectancy by ignoring the experts and the psuedo-experts like you. And you write blog posts on material you haven’t really read and don’t really understand. You are not a scientist. You are a “blogger.” One who tries to get readers by saying semi-controversial things and then asking people if they like it or hate it or are indifferent. More choices please.

    • Richard Nikoley on April 4, 2012 at 05:18


      You could have impressed us by having taken a second to search my blog for ‘Taleb.’

      And while you’re at it, you might check his Amazon review of my book. And, when his next book gets published shortly, and you read it, do look for my name in it.

      Now are you “impressed?” because it would so make my day if you were.

      • Martin Zapolski on April 4, 2012 at 06:06

        Reminds me of a friend a mine. We both got an MBA from Podunk U. He attended an NAACP convention in Washington, DC and introduced himself to another gentleman there. My friend said, I just finished my MBA – which is a Master of Business Administration. And the guy said, I know, I got mine from Harvard.

      • Unimpressed on April 4, 2012 at 06:25

        I’m referring to your comments about God and Talebs. “Nobody seems to notice that over the millennia religions (all religions) have saved people from death –because it protected them from doctors and ‘science’.” And “The easy part is to show that religion was superior to science. It is hard to accept it: religion protects you from bad science.” You bash people for trusting in a source outside of them that is God, but not one outside of them who is a surgeon?

      • mark on April 4, 2012 at 06:52

        “religions (all religions) have saved people from death”

        *hits head on wall*

        I’ll just shut up

      • Richard Nikoley on April 4, 2012 at 09:14

        I doubt NNT believes in a literal God. I’d almost certainly say he doesn’t

        So he’s just looking at it from a social hierarchical standpoint.

        But I’m an anarchist and all power hierarchies can just go fuck themselves. I’m really not that interested in circumventing Darwin, especially via force and fraud.

      • Marc Theiler on April 4, 2012 at 11:27


        It gets tiresome and sort of cliche debating the religious devotees. I find it akin to getting two people together to critique the works of Shakespeare; one having read the works, and one still learning how to recite the alphabet.

        You simply cannot sit at the adult table if you believe in Gods and the supernatural. I am sorry you get to sit at the fold-up card table with the rest of the children.

        The world will be a much better place when the virus of religion has run it’s course into oblivion.

        It’s still a remnant from our shadows, and it is fading. The light is too bright. Shining Times, Shining Times.

      • mark on April 4, 2012 at 11:37

        “The world will be a much better place when the virus of religion has run it’s course into oblivion.”

        I’m with you – but the freaks will multiple in numbers as 2012 ends. (Just don’t tell them that we are just existing the age of Pisces and entering into aquarius and the calandar continous on… It’s to big of a natural concept for them to handle)

      • Marc Theiler on April 4, 2012 at 12:45

        The fact that those with the lowest IQs breed at a hyper-rate in compare with those with relatively high IQs is sort of disturbing and interesting to me. On one side of the coin due to the accessibility of information and the real time exchange of ideas in a free idea market has done wonders for ……well those of us that are connected and attempt to gain benefit/wisdom at the expense of other’s work. Gotta love knowledge leverage.

        Yet on the other hand, we have a giant mass of dumb fuckers that bred like it’s a profession. We are at a bizarre cross-roads on the evolutionary timeline. I for one love it. Very exciting times. Very frustrating times. Either way I am bright eyed and having fun.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 4, 2012 at 13:26

        Marc, yea, but there is ample evidence that people have routinely throuought history escaped the shackles of a poor, ignorant upbringing. And more now than ever, given the access to info and knowledge on every level.

        I’d have been an atheist anarchist by 12 instead of 30 had the Internet existed in 1973.

      • Marc Theiler on April 4, 2012 at 13:36

        Haha, completely agree!

        I am so very excited about the times we are living in. Never before have we enjoyed such access to information and individuals. The content improvement over the last 3 years has been incredible! I am dumbfounded over the massive amount of quality content put out there by individuals such as yourself. I know it’s not easy for those that display courage or conviction.

        It was only yesterday (1998) when I had my ISP company and went door to door attempting to sell connectivity packages and websites to businesses; feeling the sting of a 40-60% rejection rate. “Internet will never last” “The Internet is just hype” “Our marketing dollars are better spent elsewhere” – these were the typical quips I’ve hear.

        Now look at things. I love it. We just have to keep building rapport, and delivering worthwhile content. The market will change it is already doing so. I am hoping it will certainly change the political market – as it’s as bad as it could possibly get. We cannot invoke proper change unless we start at the units within the market. Demand shit, get shit. Demand gold, believe me, there will be people willing and able to offer ya gold.

        Shinning Times, bro!

      • mark on April 5, 2012 at 07:18

        “I am so very excited about the times we are living in.”

        Peak oil
        poisonous food
        fresh water pollution and decline
        mass animal extinction
        Global warming (yep)
        Global financial collapse
        Crooked politics
        Religious wars
        over populated by approx 5 billion people

        but my fucking internet works

        Shining times!!

      • Ideal State on April 5, 2012 at 09:11

        All challenges. That is what life is all about. I never worry about such bullshit, what arrives is never as bad as the build up, and what arrives it usually far from the forecast.

        So, yes Shinning Times – it’s a mindset – not an anxiety built illusion.

        And mark, I am sure you have a roof over your head, plenty to eat and no one trying to kill ya – so I’d recommend dropping the lil bitch attitude and attempt to enjoy what we do have in front of our senses.

  46. Lou Renner on April 3, 2012 at 23:24

    While I find JK’s ideas interesting, there are a couple of red flags for me:

    a) He has routinely said things that were patently untrue and when asked about them, ignored the questions. Specifically, he commented about one of his zero-carb/CT kids winning the nationals in sprinting, and the other being faster than all the kids 10 years his senior. Well, there was no national meet when he said there was, and neither of those kids are as fast as a crappy high school runner.

    b) When he said that he spent 18 hours in an ice bath, I’m sure Jin Songhao, the world record holder at 2 hours, was surprised. Really? Nine times the world record?

    c) Okay, he lost a bunch of weight. But when I saw him at PaleoFX he still looked about 40+ lbs overweight to me. This is less an issue, but I was shocked to find out he was in his late 40s. I thought he was at least ten years older.

    FWIW, I spent quite a few 45 minute sessions in 50 degree water, and hours with ice packs on my shoulders. Didn’t do a thing to me, other than make me shiver for about an hour after the baths.

    • Leigh on April 4, 2012 at 06:10

      a. Don’t know anything about the other bits, but as I recall, the child competing with kids 10 years older was competing as a gymnast, not a runner.

      c. Did you miss the news? He spent two months gaining twenty-five pounds intentionally on a SAD diet so he could have surgery done on himself to remove the fat and was very swollen at various points. I don’t know how the timing of his quick weight loss of that & the swelling matches up with the timing of PaleoFx, but I’m certain he had not lost it all at that point, as he still has 6lb to lose.

      • Lou Renner on April 4, 2012 at 10:16

        I saw him two weeks ago. Trust me, he has WAY more than 6 lbs. to lose (again, looked like about 40 to me).

        He told me both kids were runners. But even if the other was a gymnast, I assure you he’s not, at 8, beating 18 year olds. I’m a former gymnastics coach and the idea that a pre-teen would beat a late-teen is 100% ridiculous.

      • Leigh on April 4, 2012 at 13:52

        Both kids are runners. Both kids are, IIRC, gymnasts (the 8yo is for sure). Yes, the idea is ridiculous, but have you seen the videos?

      • Lou Renner on April 5, 2012 at 07:46

        Yes, I saw the videos. That’s how I knew he was full of it. She ran about a 15-16. Any decent high school girl runs about 13, tops.

      • Leigh on April 5, 2012 at 11:22

        Lou – I am talking about the gymnastic video. To clarify the facts:

        – one child is 8 and is a gymnast (and I think also a runner). He is competing with 18yo’s in gymnastics. There is a video. I think his prowess is the strength moves he is able to do, not the grace, lol.

        – another child is older and a runner (and I think also a gymnast). She is competing against girls her age.

        Does that help clear anything up? He’s not saying any of the running was competing against older kids.

      • Lou Renner on April 9, 2012 at 18:38

        I didn’t see the gymnastics video. Got a link? Again, as a GYMNASTICS COACH for over 20 years, I can assure you that there’s no 8-year old on the planet who will beat a good 18 year old. I’m happy to watch the video and be proven wrong. But I’d make a LARGE wager that I won’t be.

        The idea that the girl is beating her age-mates in a sprint thanks to CT is only meaningful, if at all, if she was radically slower prior to CT/paleo.

        But, again, you’re forgetting: Jack TOLD ME they both were beating kids much older than them. Jack posted that she won nationals. Neither of which are true.

  47. Srdjan Ostic on April 4, 2012 at 04:23

    What surprises me most is that no one have ever seen the movie Buckaroo Banzai!

    Jack Kruse is the reincarnation of Buckaroo Banzai.

    Here is a quote from the movie: A renaissance man, the character is a top neurosurgeon, particle physicist, race car driver, rock star and comic book hero, and probably the last hope of the human race.

    Let me just say this: Jack has a style that rubs people the wrong way, and he pushes the envelope of their comfort level. I am not sure I find that a bad thing in medicine, to be honest. We have a system currently that relies on drugs and technology, and has forced doctors into the role of technologists, and patients as consumers. To me, that is the bigger picture. I think a lot of people in the bloggosphere feel this way, but to get noticed, you have to rattle some chains.

    I too am not convinced of all the science, but Jack has style and he gets that message across. One of the things about you Richard (other than you write very well, better than Jack, and me too) is that you drop the F-Bomb and your rants are funny as hell. You say what people are thinking like WTF? MF! And you balance this with an incredible dispassionate rationality.

    And that actually surprises me, because I can’t follow Jack’s blogs all that well. But he has this charisma which connects. He gets that, and to me, it seems that he has master this intuitive understand of how people think, pisses people off. And it seems to me that Jack is smart and safe and a great neurosurgeon. So more power to him. He is pushing the limits. Science is only dangerous when you think you have found all the answers. (A Quote). I like Jack’s Gonzo style. Of course, I am huge fan of Hunter Thompson, so why wouldn’t I, right?

    I have basis for this. My cousin, Dr. Dan Ivankovich, is a 6’10” orthopedic surgeon who wears black, plays blues, and is larger-than-life. He also takes care of a ton of indigent patient in Chicago, as do I. But he is full of style, always on the media, always getting his message across, and does like 1000 cases per year. He is awesome, but I know for a fact, he pisses people off because he is going against the grain and pushing the limits, and has a ton of style–he kind remind me of Jack in many ways. His band the Chicago Blues all-stars have some of his former patients singing and playing in the band. He went to Haiti, and helped a lot of people, and had them flown back for surgery. I obviously love the dude, and am spewing some serious man love, but my point is: I do the same thing in most ways! But he is the guy who is brash and connects. He is getting the message out about how screwed up the justice issue is in our health care system.


    So, although I am not totally sure about Jack. the fact is I don’t know him all that well. But I see he connects, and he is trying to do good work, it seems. I don’t think he is dangerous, and I understand his style is brash, and pisses people off, and some of the science is well, ‘sciency’, but I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt until I have evidence otherwise.

    I would just tell all the bloggers out there who are doing good work to keep up the great work. I love it, and I think its important to keep rattling chains instead of bickering with each other. Richard, Thanks for being a fair arbitrator, and never lose the F-bomb from your vocabulary. It is the best adjective, noun, adverb, etc. that can be used in many blog posts.

    The fact is health care is a mess. To me that is the bigger problem that Jack is addressing, and addressing well, as I see it by identifying its structural fault lines. Structurally, as I’ve noted, health care is a complete mess in terms of both justice and its essential structure. We need more doctors, and less technologists and bureaucrats, and well-informed patients asking about effective treatments outside of drugs and surgery. I see that a huge pressing issue, and I see all the good bloggers who are trying to connect people with this info, including Jack, as doing great work. Certainly not free of being criticized or questioned, it does further the debate. (eg the Taubes-Guyenet tete-a-tete—I learned soooo much from those exchanges)

    Sorry, I rambled so long.

    • Richard Nikoley on April 4, 2012 at 08:57

      Doc Ostic

      Thanks for distilling my basic reason for setting myself up as I have. My approach was Jack the personality, motivator, energizer, not about the science.

      I’m not dissapointed.

      • grace (Dr.BG) on April 4, 2012 at 21:52


        It is interesting to me that the peeps who want to ‘shake the chains’ of the conventional world the most are those that spent significant time abroad from their native country (you, Gary Taubes/France, Peter Hyperlipid, Tourgeman) and those like Ostic, Ivankovich who appear first or second generation…

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 4, 2012 at 23:15

        I lived abroad for 3 years. There goes your theory.

      • Jscott on April 5, 2012 at 10:44

        You would consider yourself conventional?

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 5, 2012 at 22:39

        The fact you’re not sure whether I am joking or not means I’ve got expectations managed perfectly……

      • Jscott on April 6, 2012 at 11:46

        I loves and laffs this. I now die at big sword of master Harris. Gladly. I come back as better student next time.

      • Sean on April 6, 2012 at 05:35

        You expats are such goddamn snobs.

      • grace (Dr.BG) on April 10, 2012 at 16:50


        That’s why I *heart* you. (And evolutionary foodie temptress Melissa, who spent significant time abroad as well)


        *chuckle!!!!!* (don’t tell Richard, sometimes I only read the comments for your snark)

    • Stipetic on April 5, 2012 at 00:34

      Hrvatsko bratstvo. :-)

  48. Martin Zapolski on April 4, 2012 at 05:34

    I guess I’m late to this game, but I think Jack used low carb paleo, calorie restriction, and cold thermogenesis to lose tons of weight and then created the science of how it works. I think it’s almost like me whacking my old TV to get the picture to stop bouncing then creating a theory on why giving televisions a hard whack reawakens some ancient pathway. Sure, it works but as for the why…

    I did read on Mark’s Daily Apple how a group was using concentrated cold on fat cells to destroy them (sorry, that’s as technical as I can remember or explain it). Could it be that Jack did the same thing plus the stuff that we know works and with his mindset thought he stumbled on to something huge?

    I can’t follow his writing, but cold baths/showers are beneficial in my own self-experiments. I do not think it’s a good idea for a middle-age man who is not in the best of shape to plunge into ice-cold water in hopes of short cutting the time it takes to lose weight using low-carb, low carb paleo, paleo, low fat, calorie restriction, etc. To do so would be a great recipe for a heart attack, I know CT proponents advocate acclimation, but some people always think more is better and want to go all the way, right away.

    • Lululemon on April 5, 2012 at 14:44

      +1. I’m old enough to remember whacking the tv.

      I am also old enough to have used Breck Shampoo in glass bottles and rinsed my hair in cold water to make it shine. I was on a swim team that trained in unseated salt water (Fleischaker pool in San Francisco). By all rights I should claim CT as my personal invention dating back to the 50s.

      When I was young and stupid I clambered out of a hot tub and ran across a snowy lawn to jump into Lake Tahoe. I would not do that now. My once daily baby aspirin may not save me.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 5, 2012 at 15:04

        “When I was young and stupid I clambered out of a hot tub and ran across a snowy lawn to jump into Lake Tahoe.”

        In college at OSU (Oregon) we did a ski trip to somewhere within a few hours drive (Bachelor in Bend, I think). They had an enormous hot tub, and there was 3 feet of snow all around the edge, with a path cut. We all went barefoot, through the snow, had a great time.

        Cannibal Soup.

  49. villjamur stefansson on April 4, 2012 at 05:44

    Right or wrong – you have to give Jack credit for putting this information out there without charging a dime. Cold Thermogenesis is a very cheap protocol to try – all it takes is some water, ice, and time. It seems the latest science is showing that everyone has brown adipose tissue – and that if we cater to its needs by activating it and creating more of it – it can put a serious dent in metabolic syndrome. And if the rest of Dr Kruse’s ideas are correct, this just might be the tip of the iceberg. But even if the rest of ideas prove to be wrong, the BAT activation is real and helpful – and cheap!

  50. Martin Zapolski on April 4, 2012 at 05:44

    Here is a link to he Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryolipolysis

  51. Dan on April 4, 2012 at 05:58

    The folks at Whole9 have been talking about ice baths for some time now already

  52. Dexter on April 4, 2012 at 06:09

    The only thing that really matters about Kruse is does what he professes work in human beings. If you have not tried any of his protocols then you have little cred. There is nothing like disproving an idea by a personal experiment. All one has to do to disprove Kruse optimal health and longevity is to test your telomere length.

    Here is one posting on Kruse’s forum regarding telomere length and Kruse’s protocols.

    “After running into this website, I started Leptin Rx instead of phase 3 in mid-Jan. and had a rock solid weight maintanence, i.e. no regain. Started CT immediately with baths in early Feb when Doc posted the first blog.”

    “Spectracell test was drawn 3/9/12.”

    “My average was 31-32 years old (I am 52!) on the telemere length. There is a 5 year +/- on this. Worst case senario I am at 37 yrs old.”

    “I’m thrilled. Just the opposite of Dr Nancy Snyderman on the Today show. Testing older is a bummer but this is the way to lengthen telemeres, lengthen life and embrace wellness.”

    • M. on April 4, 2012 at 07:50

      Uhmm, you see no problems in attributing her telomere length to 2 months of protocol and not the previous 52 years of her life? And you are here posting this as some kind of refutation of Kruse’s critics? Here’s an idea, measure your telomeres before starting the protocol.

      Kruse preys on mentally slow people and people desperate for help. The same kind of people that will decide injecting themselves with MRSA and taking 9 hour ice baths are a good idea because Jack says so (and don’t worry about numbness – Jack’s been numb for months – tough it out a little longer and your quantum terrior will become conducive to activating your Ancient Pathways.)

      • Leigh on April 4, 2012 at 18:47

        She had just come off of hCG. People don’t do that diet because they’re in good health. She is saying she was in poor health, did this protocol, and now has a good telomere report.

        Assuming that following his protocol played major hand in that does not make those who rejoice with her mentally slow.

        But, by the way, who else is really helping those desperate for help? I mean, actually making a difference in their help? Helping the desperate does not make one evil, so let’s stick to factual arguments here.

        No one has any intention of following Kruse’s experiment, and he has of course said this isn’t an experiment for anyone to follow. You are insulting instead of engaging in a reasonable discourse.

      • M. on April 5, 2012 at 08:17

        “Assuming that following his protocol played major hand in that does not make those who rejoice with her mentally slow.”

        Again, no measurement of her telomeres was taken before beginning the protocol. She did LR for 2 months and CT for 1 month versus 52 years of life. You are saying this 1-2 month protocol immediately extended her telomeres by 20 years, and Dexter offered this up as evidence that Kruse’s protocols work. It is not particularly “mentally fast” to come to this interpretation. One could in fact argue that if one had great telomeres even after 52 years of poor health, diet, and lifestyle, then maybe our ability to affect our telomeres is somewhat limited.

        “Helping the desperate does not make one evil…”

        But preying on the desperate might make one evil. Or rich. Or both.

      • Leigh on April 5, 2012 at 11:25

        Hey, it’s not the example I would have used for the very reason that we do not know her starting telomeres. But given that she was coming off of hCG, the chances are greater that her health (and telomeres) were poor than that they were always exceptional.

        I’d LOVE to see some paleo crossfitters, CW lowfat/high-grain marathoners, paleo seasonal-carb MovNat’ers, and anyone else who wants to get in the show, do the before/after telomere test. It would be very interesting.

  53. Martin Zapolski on April 4, 2012 at 06:23

    I agree. And I think it does work. Let the doctors, scientists, clinicians, and other interested parties work/hash out the science.

    Take what works and try it. But with With his exteme CT, I think many caveats are warranted. Also, as much as I like the expression, CT will not make you literally “bullet proof”.

    • Dexter on April 4, 2012 at 07:05

      CT may not make you immune from lead poisoning from a gun, but it may make your immune system so strong that you will never suffer another bout of sickness from an invading bacteria or virus.

      Here is the ultimate test. Test what Kruse is espousing and decide for yourself.

      All this juvinile mental masterbation is just silly.

      It never repaired or healed anyone. All the invectives thrown at Kruse are just conventional wisdom dogma disguised as all seeing, all knowing, stuck in the past CW.

      He is using all his CT protocols and Leptin Reset protocols in his practice daily.

      He has no time to wait for randomized control trials to disprove his theories because he is healing patients.

  54. Will on April 4, 2012 at 06:27

    thanks for the mention of the book. i kindled it. it was dirt cheap & had favorable reviews from Dr. Jaminet & the Black Swan guy, Nassim Nicholas Taleb. what did Jaminet say, kind of like Sisson & Wolf b/ easier to read. I liked Sisson’s books and roared w/ laughter when reading Wolff. can’t wait to read yours.

    • Richard Nikoley on April 4, 2012 at 09:16

      Thanks Will.

      If you like it, there should be a page at the back where you can away 5 ebook copies for free to whomever you like.

    • VW on April 4, 2012 at 14:58

      Richard’s book is HIGHLY recommended, Will.

      The ability to gift it to others is a great thing. After a year or so of trying to walk my brother through some paleo basics, I gifted this ebook to him. The book accomplished in 2 days what I could not accomplish in 12+ months.

  55. BabyGirl on April 4, 2012 at 06:35

    There was an old pediatric doctor in Montgomery, AL that swore by kids going barefoot all year around. Said it helped their immune systems.

    It sort of fell out of favor, but years ago that idea of getting cold was well known.

  56. Christo on April 4, 2012 at 06:57

    Ever heard of Wim Hoff?

    “On April 18th, Hof got the test results regarding the “The influence of concentration/meditation on autonomic nervous system activity and the innate immune response” case study, demonstrating that he is able to directly influence his own Autonomic Nervous System and Immune System. Hof seems to be able to raise his cortisol levels and lower the ammount of cytokines(flammatory bodies) just by using his meditation techniques. a different study on Hof while immersed in ice showed that Hof surpressed the cytokins (flammatory bodies) by 100 percent. [“

  57. cj on April 4, 2012 at 07:24

    Ummm, not that anyone is still reading this far down, especially since all of the expletives ceased quite a few posts back. My experience with LR and CT so far? epic fail for me. gained weight on LR and, frankly am pretty perturbed reading about everyone’s “amazing results” with CT. I’ve been CTing and keeping a journal of what I’m doing since February. Enter expletive. Not a fucking thing. Scratch that. actually, I used to sleep fine and now I wake up at night, have irregular periods, have been sick twice (nasty cold and then Norwalk virus) and have not lost an inch or a pound. Everyone’s n=1 is just that, ONE.

    • Lululemon on April 5, 2012 at 14:56

      Yeah, CJ some of us are still here. More addicting than a soap opera.

      I have some expletives for you to. I tried LR. Lost weight but pushed my LDL up so far it scared me. Trashed my sleep too. Hated not exercising. My dog did not lose weight, but gained a pound. And drove me fucking crazy wanting to walk twice a day.

      I added back sweet potatoes and lots of citrus. Wondered why there was more money left at the end of the month, then realized that 3 pastured eggs and all those supplements were costing a fucking fortune.

      Dog is much happier now.

      And I am loving Crossfit. My low back pain and sundry aches are going away.

      And now I go to bed when I am sleepy, have stopped walking around in the dark and walking into shit, I eat when I am hungry and stop when I am full. Full out paleo and losing weight. Novel concept.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 5, 2012 at 15:07


        Where have you and your expletives been in my comments all this time?

        Please stay. Personal invitation.

  58. Will on April 4, 2012 at 08:24

    it’s just a matter of style. even tho Gary Taubes fervently believes “that carbs drive insulin which drives fat accumulation,” he is careful to phrase it as a “hypothesis” to be proved or disproved with a double blind clinical trial. lately he’s modified his position that sugar screws up your metabolism to start w/ so you can’t handle carbs. a further modification is that the hypothesis may only apply to insulin resistant types.

    Likewise Matt laLonde says that paleo is a great heuristic b/ not everything that comes out of the intuitive theory may be true. likewise, he phrases his thoughts as hypotheses. Kruse is a different personality- he’s not hedging. the theory may be all just that, a hueristic method of discovery. Even the great Atkins was wrong about why his diet worked. it was not fat b/ protein that provides satiety. Anyway a little light touch by his critics is in order. Understand the man & enjoy the journey of discovery.

  59. David P on April 4, 2012 at 09:55

    How does anyone take anything JK says seriously. Just look up any of his claims. He is lying about ice baths, lying about Phelps pool temperature (unless of like someone said he really does take ice baths 4 times longer than the world record holder, and Phelps has a secret training pool that only he and Jack know about). Does anyone really believe he stuck himself with MRSA???? How can you believe a word of it???

  60. Joseph Fetz on April 4, 2012 at 09:58

    Well, shit. It certainly looks like your google-friendly title worked. Either that or you’re a super popular guy (which considering the fact that I like you, isn’t entirely inconceivable).

  61. Richard Nikoley on April 4, 2012 at 10:54

    I’ve just been out tweeting and FBing about how Kurt, Melissa, and Emily all have comments here and are on the negative side of whatever the question is.

    Also retweeted a link to Monica’s comment.

    So yea, all arguments welcome. That was the point.

  62. Doug on April 4, 2012 at 11:01

    “What I was able to do was ascertain whether shit made a little or more sense, and when it did, I tested it on myself”.


  63. Mike on April 4, 2012 at 11:27

    I seriously have to set aside some time to go through these comments. This post = gold mine.

  64. Jerry on April 4, 2012 at 11:44

    This should not be about Jack Kruse. What any of us thinks about him, personally, is completely irrelevant.

    Instead, we should be discussing his ideas and his methods.
    Do they work? Do they get results?
    Are his theories falsifiable?

    How about separate discussions on LR and/or CT results? Can we do that?
    Let’s discuss results without any ad homenim comments.

    • Lululemon on April 5, 2012 at 15:02

      With all due respect, his communication style, his pedantic writing, his bloated prose and his fucking multiple ellipses are what constitutes the biggest problem. What we think of him is huge. I have no respect for him as a human. Why would I want to follow his lead when he is so lacking in the one essential human quality, that being humility. Throw out the baby with the (ice) bath water.

      • Jc on April 9, 2012 at 14:11

        I haven’t read a single post by Kruse, but have been faithfully catching up on the comments here…but now I read that Kruse overuses ellipses!? Great…now I am compelled to actually read something of his now that I have learned he is a fellow ellipses addict. Thanks for the heads-up…

  65. rob on April 4, 2012 at 12:03

    When you measure your telomere, are you supposed to measure it while it is erect or flaccid?

    • mark on April 4, 2012 at 12:32

      erect – try to push into your fat till you hit your pelvic bone – it should give you more to work with

  66. Evelyn aka CarbSane on April 4, 2012 at 12:23


    As one who has had my fair share of criticism of Jack from both a scientific POV and just having fun with his quirks, I’m hoping you’ll hear me out on this.

    I, too, relate to him on some levels. We are around the same age and grew up in the same area, though he in the city and me in the burbs. I can relate to his “dreamer” side. But I cannot tolerate BS. For the Leptin thing it was no nevermind mostly. Except that when someone feels bone-chillingly cold and they can’t warm up, to respond that “that’s what you want”??

    While there’s apparently someone who has survived 2 hrs in ice water, Jack’s claims of spending 2 to 4 hours PER NIGHT in a tub of ice water. This is where he loses me with the tall tales. You mention the cold plunge is 40 deg. in the Men’s area but 60 in the Women’s. The cold plunge at the resort I was just at was at 60 deg — I didn’t think to confirm with hubs that his was at the same temp. In any case, then, shouldn’t Jack at a minimum have different CT protocols for men and women if there’s some scientific reason behind why there was a 20 deg difference in the temps of the cold plunges for the genders at your club? Do not reports of LINGERING numbness at least raise red flags?

    None of this comes close to the injecting MRSA claims. Believe them or not, your friend is teetering on the verge of professional suicide if not more dire consequences. This goes so beyond n=1 experimentation. It’s one thing to experiment on yourself with ice baths, eating nothing but meat in the winter, summer carbfests, whatever. It’s quite another to make this outlandish claim of injecting yourself with a potentially deadly agent and going under someone else’s knife in a medical facility. I DON’T BELIEVE HIM. But if you do, think about what this says of the mental state of a husband and father of two doing what he claims. This goes beyond the whole bucking the system, thinking outside the box, whatever … This is DEAD serious shit.

    Either your friend is losing grip on reality (my guess) or he’s a pathological liar doing what he’s doing for unknown reasons. He is risking his professional career and perhaps his life. If it were my friend, I’d be on the phone to him and his wife to intervene. Just saying …

    • mark on April 4, 2012 at 12:35

      I call it natural selection – hopefully those testing do it before they pro-create.

    • Richard Nikoley on April 4, 2012 at 13:15


      Thanks. I hear you out and will consider seriously.

      • Evelyn aka CarbSane on April 4, 2012 at 14:04

        Richard, I hope you do, because something haunted me my entire drive home from work today:

        He answered, and something seemed way off…as though he’d been shot and was lying in a puddle of his own blood, bleeding to death. Nope, it was worse. He’d been in 40ish degree water for some hours (under supervision) at that point. He told me all about what he was up to, swore me to secrecy and that was that. I made sure he was under supervision and was eating during the experiment, because he was intending for a long haul in the icy water.

        He sounded like he’d been shot and lying in a puddle of his own blood. Yet he reassured you that, no, he only sounded like total crap because he’d undergone surgery and had been lying in a puddle of ice water for some hourS instead. Yet somehow your concerns were allayed by assurances he was under supervision? What medical training does his wife, son or daughter possess? What medical equipment should something happen under this supervision? He wasn’t under supervision according to his story, he was being watched and if he had gone into shock, or suffered hypothermia:

        “Heat is lost more quickly in water[18] than on land. Water temperatures that would be quite reasonable as outdoor air temperatures can lead to hypothermia. A water temperature of 10 °C (50 °F) often leads to death in one hour, and water temperatures hovering at freezing can lead to death in as little as 15 minutes.[32] Water at a temperature of 26 °C (79 °F) will, after prolonged exposure, lead to hypothermia.[33]”

        If anything happened, it might well have been witnessed rather than “supervised”.

        The MRSA just takes it to a whole ‘nother level.

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 4, 2012 at 17:46

        It is in fact entirely possible someone will kill themselves doing extended cold immersion in a tub of ice water. Mountain climbers, scuba divers, and sailors, hell, boy scouts and deer hunters are all taught about how deadly hypothermia is as part of their education. Every summer, someone dies a few hunted yards from shore right near my home in lake michigan. Water temp usually about in the upper 50s F. Not ice water. Summer kayakers with PFDs on.

        Some dummy (we see them posting here already) emulating Jack is going to fill a tub with ice water and lay down in it. Once the core temperature drops enough, the brain’s metabolism slows to the point that executive function – judgement – is clouded and the person may literally not have enough sense to get out of the tub, and they die. This actually happens in polar exploration and winter mountaineering. Without comrades around to put a blanket on you and start a fire, you die of NOT BEING ABLE TO THINK CLEARLY. This is how hypothermia kills. Hypothermia can also induce arrythmias.

        Then there is the less serious, but also not funny, issue of frostbite. It sounds all cutesy and harmless – frostbite – but it is a serious medical diagnosis. Even without tissue freezing solid, one can get vascular thrombosis and permanent tissue damage including damage to nerves and blood vessels. Permanent numbness, loss of sensation and poor blood flow can result. The idea of subjecting an extremity to this TRAUMA, even if your core temperature remains normal, is no smarter than striking yourself with a hammer or holding your hand over an open flame a la Gordon Liddy.

        So while the MRSA injection claim is not likely to emulated, these David Blaine cold stunts are.

        Don’t be stupid, people. You’ll feel really foolish with permanent numbness even if you don’t die.

      • Leigh on April 4, 2012 at 18:21

        He addresses the concerns of hypothermia (and the confusion) and frostbite both on how how-to blog and his website. He gives signs to watch for warnings.

        Someone who hears about this and jumps right into ice water in solitude and dies is no more his responsibility than someone who reads a horseback riding manual, mounts a pony, and rides straight off a cliff.

        People die of hypothermia all the time because they leave their always-warm homes and get into really cold situations. They are not cold adapted. His is a method of reaching that cold adaptation, using your brain to be cautious and watch for signs of impending trouble all along the way.

        I imagine that kayaking manuals and backcountry ski courses take similar precautions, and neither are they responsible for the deaths of those who fail to follow their instructions and caveats.

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 4, 2012 at 21:37

        “People die of hypothermia all the time because they leave their always-warm homes and get into really cold situations. They are not cold adapted. His is a method of reaching that cold adaptation, using your brain to be cautious and watch for signs of impending trouble all along the way.”

        This is utter physiologic fantasy. Hypothermia kills people because their judgement becomes impaired in a manner that precludes self monitoring.

        Did you miss my point that hypothermia itself precludes monitoring for hypothermia in extreme situations? Apparently.

        People do not die because they are not “cold adapted” , there is no such thing as protection against hypothermia by practice. If you lose too much heat, you will become hypothermic.

        You forgot to address the issue of people on his blog complaining of ass numbness from sitting on ice.

      • Bill Strahan on April 4, 2012 at 22:36

        If you lose too much heat, you will become hypothermic. That can’t be argued. I think what some people mean by cold adapted is what I experience now when taking a cold bath. If my body is generating substantial heat then I’m not going to have as big a drop in body temperature as someone who doesn’t generate that heat. And since I’ve seen that change in myself over two years in particular, all pre-dating the Kruse stuff, I do think the point at which I would become hypothermic is totally different from the point at which someone else would if they had not been taking cold baths for so long.

        Your point to the decline in judgment/mental functioning does concern me though. I usually listen to podcasts or read when I’m in the tub, and don’t notice any decline in my ability to understand what I’m enjoying. But no sooner do I have that thought than I recall an experience in a private plane a couple of years back.

        I was flying at…well, let’s just say it was high enough that apparently I should have been using oxygen. I was listening to a Robb Wolf podcast, and on the podcast recording Robb was having a hard time remembering a word. He was going on about how it was on the tip of his tongue, but he just couldn’t think of it. I laughed and thought to myself that it was probably the altitude getting to him. Clearly I was in better shape since the altitude wasn’t affecting me. Something about that seemed strange, and in a moment of clarity I realized Robb’s voice WAS A RECORDING!!!

        I took a few deep breaths, turned off the autopilot, and descended. Wow.

        Kurt, I assume you’re stating that the affects of hypothermia are similar to hypoxia as far as reasoning and mental function. In that case, I have to agree, self assessment is worthless. I’ve been hypoxic a couple of times flying, and have almost blacked out while free diving. I didn’t see it coming, but I did realize after I recovered that I wasn’t okay. I’ve never had that type of post-cold-bath recovery experience, so tend to think I’ve not experienced the decline in function. If it’s like hypoxia I would not expect to recognize it during, but I would expect the sense of recovery from being a little f’d up.

        Hmmm. I’ll probably do some timed math problems next time and see if I can spot some slowing down of mental functions. I don’t want to take it that far, just want the faster recovery from workouts.

        Food for thought as to being cautious, and if you’re new to this in particular, I recommend going very slowly and having someone check on you at agreed upon intervals.

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 4, 2012 at 23:22

        I’m an alpine climber and I’ve done scuba diving in very cold water. I assure you I’ve seen and experienced what I am talking about and it is not just book knowledge. Read the climbing and polar exploration literature (RF Scott, Endurance, Amundsen, etc.) and you will see this phenomenon is a real killer.

        And folks underestimate the permanence of thermal injury too. I had a toe that was very cold sensitive for years after getting what I thought was minor frostbite when I went pheasant hunting as a boy with my dad in Iowa. It lasted for years.

      • Neal Matheson on April 5, 2012 at 03:15

        I’ve spent many years climbong and I’ve seen people drop from hypothermia it is very scary. If you don’t recognise the early signs it’s pretty much over unless someone is with you.

      • Adam on April 5, 2012 at 03:22

        Hi Dr. Harris.

        I am aware fo hypothermia, the mental confusion, and that requires a core temp drop.

        The difference Bill and others are pointing out and I have found myself is I can do progressively longer exposures with no core temp drop and no shivering – now a full hour. Perhaps it is not well documented or understood (why would it – who is crazy enough to be that cold on purpose eh?). People typically don’t work up to being stranded at altitude in the cold, or falling into freezing water, etc…your practical experience is apples to oranges.

        However there is a physiological adaption believe it or not – hormesis whatever you want to call it.. Or maybe I got lucky and am superhuman :)

      • Adam on April 5, 2012 at 03:37

        Dr. Harris – a couple more major differences from your prior experience is that there is no physical activity/exertion in these cold exposures and the head is not exposed.

      • mark on April 5, 2012 at 05:12

        There was a guy once who convinced lots of people that mass suicide was a good thing.

      • Leigh on April 5, 2012 at 06:15

        “You forgot to address the issue of people on his blog complaining of ass numbness from sitting on ice.”

        I addressed the issue of people not following precautions carefully, certainly. I did forget (until just after hitting ‘reply’) to add that even following the safety instructions for skiing & climbing & diving properly, people still sometimes get in situations over their head, or are subject to freak acts of nature, and are permanently injured or die. This is not the fault of the instructor who gave due warning.

        Your position seems to be similar to saying that no one should undertake training to increase his aerobic endurance, sun tolerance, or dietary fat tolerance, because of remote chances of permanent harm if done poorly.

        You act as if I don’t know that confusion is part of why people die from hypothermia, although I addressed that. In fact, when I increase the length of my bath or decrease the temperature, or go to the river or lake instead, I take my (non-bathing) husband with me. And as always, I cover my head and hands and keep them out of the water.

        Hypothermia is not SOLELY exposure to cold to the point of confusion, worsening your situation, and death. It depends on how much cold you can tolerate (just like susceptibility to infection depends on how much of a microbe or its toxins you can tolerate, another position on which we apparently are at variance). It is factually accurate that one can increase one’s cold tolerance. Mine increased DRAMATICALLY. At first, I couldn’t take 40 degrees without a wool coat. After a month, I could easily do 28 degrees in a t-shirt & jeans. Overcast. (This happened, by the way, before Kruse ever uttered the words “cold thermogenesis” in public.)

        One does not need a microbiology degree to know that susceptibility to cold (or microbes) depends not only on the objective conditions, but alo on one’s tolerance, and that said tolerance can be increased. Perhaps our primary disagreement is whether the increase in tolerance can be modified substantially, or only negligibly, by diet & lifestyle.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 5, 2012 at 07:48

        Heh, Bill, I was actually going to raise the issue of hypoxia. Lot’s of hang glider pilots, especially in the Owens Valley get hypoxic, but it’s very intermittent. They’ll climb to 20-22K MSL, go on glide XC until they’re back down to 7K or so, climb again, etc.

        I’ve climbed up to about 13K a few times, but that’s right on the endue of things.

        And yes, I know everything above 18K is class A. So don’t tell anyone. :)

        BTW, someone below already made the distinction about the head not being exposed to the cold and no physical exertion. There’s another, and that’s that you can stop any time you like. It’s artificial, not like there’ literally no place to go.

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 5, 2012 at 10:41

        If you can’t understand what I am saying or why I am saying it, just stop reading what I write.

        I have not once said that it is not possible to cold adapt. Not once. Not part of my argument at all. Never mentioned it.

        I have only addressed the wisdom of this kind of self-experimentation.

      • Leigh on April 5, 2012 at 11:38

        With respect, I said exactly that. It seems the main difference may be the degree to which one can cold adapt.

        We both would agree, I believe, that people can increase tolerance to certain things that could cause great harm or death. A normal day of skiing could remove digits permanently for my mother (Raynaud’s) without heavy bundling, but my father can ski in light layers with no core temp drop. (Neither have undertaken CT.)

        The question is whether it’s insane to teach people how to cold adapt, if the instructor gives due safety precautions.

        It seems you are of the opinion that Kruse has not done this, or that it has no benefits & is just stunt (like teaching people to sword-swallow for health), and is encouraging people to endanger themselves. I should note that he has specifically said that it took him months or years (depending on what part of CT) to reach what he is doing right now, and he emphatically insists that that kind of CT is NOT for the beginner or intermediate, but for someone who has carefully progressed through all previous steps with solid success and supervision when undertaking new adventures.

        This self-experimentation has already benefited me in just a short time. It was fabulous to ski in just one layer when others had to hit the lodge constantly because of weather. No drop in core temp for me. It was wonderful to spend long days hiking in the cold without cumbersome layers I used to have to wear. I loved camping when it dipped below freezing at night without having to bring a mummy bag.

        If the self-experimentation is done carefully, with clear benefits ahead, why is this different from learning to hang-glide, scuba dive, parachute, ride a motorcycle, bicycle in the road, climb Everest, run a Tough Mudder, or just simply build tolerance to be able to spend more than twenty minutes in the sun without burning (as I used to do)?

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 5, 2012 at 22:41

        You win the typing contest….

      • Leigh on April 6, 2012 at 06:43

        Mea culpa

        I’m just asking if you would agree if the point of disagreement might just be the degree to which someone can/should increase tolerance of things that can harm those with less tolerance.

        It’s an honest question, and I had hoped for an honest answer.

        It can get easy to get long-winded when I only see a few lines at a time in my window (and forgot to check at the end).

    • Leigh on April 4, 2012 at 13:29

      “if there’s some scientific reason behind why there was a 20 deg difference in the temps of the cold plunges for the genders at your club?”

      When I heard that, it made perfect sense – *most* ladies are just not going to take water that cold. Sorry. I hate it, but most of our gender aren’t the toughest in the world.

      I still don’t get this huge contingent of prominent paleo people who believe that we are all susceptible to bacteria purely through exposure. Don’t we all know many people, such as myself, who get far fewer colds & flu & pneumonia now that they’ve learned to eat in a way more consistent with their historical design? I know many people who try to give their children chicken pox – I did the same, licking someone else’s lollipops (did this years ago, tons of other mamas do this, too) & wrestling together, and none of mine got it. Not one.

      It’s the terrain, not the germ. Why are we having so hard a time applying this here? And seriously, my guess is this experiment was not the first time Jack Kruse purposely exposed himself to bacteria and realized he wouldn’t get it.

      What is your thought on Wim Hof’s similar experiment?

      • Evelyn aka CarbSane on April 4, 2012 at 14:15

        According to Wikipedia ( , Wim Hof’s ice “baths” are actually ice cubes. And he holds the world record for lasting in an ice cube “packing” of 1 hour and 52 minutes and 42 seconds. The surface area contact of ice cubes vs. cold air is far less than the surface area of ice WATER immersion. As Jack himself knows, the thermal conductivity of the water is higher and coupled with the surface area of contact not to mention the mass of the “cold body” there is simply no comparison between Hof’s feats and Jack’s claimed feats. He’d be dead.

        As to MRSA, well, the man’s an idiot for knowingly exposing himself to it. I am very infection resistant and my husband would have me rightly committed if he learned I was going to do just the surgery nonsense let alone expose myself to MRSA. That is insane!!!

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 4, 2012 at 17:50

        I stand by my claim that 4 hours, and probably even 2 hours, of ice water immersion is physiologically impossible. Don’t need wikipedia for that. Ask a Navy surgeon.

      • Joseph Fetz on April 6, 2012 at 11:22

        I’ll say that that is correct. I am not a Navy Surgeon, but I was in the Navy. After having watched numerous BUD/s candidates swim in 40-50 degree water and get hypothermia within an hour or so (max is about 2 hours), I can say with certainty that nobody is going to last 4 hours in ice cold water, especially if they are immobile.

      • Adam on April 6, 2012 at 12:29

        Whatever the time is you do realize they will last longer immobile don’t you? Are you suggesting the opposite?

        Moving in the water increases the exchange of heat from the body to the water and also takes energy that could be keeping the core up to temp longer and expends it in the muscles in the extremities doing the movements.

        Also I doubt the navy is slowly easing the trainees into exposures starting with a few minutes a day.

      • Joseph Fetz on April 6, 2012 at 13:30

        Actually, it isn’t as simple as you claim.

        I understand that moving causes more cold water to couple with the skin, however, increased activity also tends to increase core temp. I’ve swam in SD Bay and the Pacific Ocean without a wet suit many times and it is cold as hell. The period of submersion to near-hypothermia was quite more protracted when moving than it was when immobile. As I said, that water is quite a bit warmer than ice-water, and the longest I’ve seen anybody last is about 2 hours (without a wet suit) before hypothermia sets in.

        Whether to swim or not in the situation posed depends upon certain variables. For instance, if you are clothed, then it obviously makes sense to tread water for as long as you can, so that the warm water contained within your clothing isn’t exchanged for cold water. However, if you are naked or simply wearing trunks, then it could go either way depending upon other variables.

        Another variable to take into account is the medium itself (it’s volume, its density and its containment). If you’re in a small bathtub of some sort, then non-movement of both your body and the water will allow the water immediately surrounding the skin to warm up slightly, thus providing somewhat of a cushion between the skin and the colder water. Further, to general temperature of the water in that tub will continually rise as time progresses if its volume is below a certain threshold and it is cooled by ice cubes rather than refrigeration (i.e. the total density of the medium will be less). However, if you’re in open water (bay, ocean, lake), this simply will not happen due to water movement constantly exchanging the water closest to the skin with new water, and that your body represents such a small source of heat that its energy will be of no consequence to the total volume of water.

        You are correct, there isn’t the slow easing of trainees as one would expect in a controlled situation. However, trainees do spend roughly 4-5 hours of the day in the water intermittently for weeks before they are fully immersed for their bay swim. So, while not entirely in the same form as you’d expect in a more controlled environment, they are nonetheless eased into it and allowed to adapt over a period of time.

        Now, to the actual point that the doc was making. 4 hours of ice water immersion is physiologically impossible. I agree entirely, however I must add “without resulting in physical injury or death” immediately after “immersion” so that it reads, “4 hours of ice water immersion without resulting in physical injury or death is physiologically impossible”. The burden of proof rests on those making such preposterous claims to the contrary.

      • Adam on April 7, 2012 at 06:50

        Yes lots of variables in a survival situation to get the best chance of living.
        Comparing BUDS training to a soak in a tub is apples and oranges. Here we are looking at how if a person can work up to a longer exposure. I really don’t know if 4 hours is possible – but I do know the adaptation works well without core dropping. Personally I’m up to an hour with 45F water no shivering or core drop.

        That aside swimming is not going to aid in warming the core – you are going to increase the blood flow to the extremities (which are colder), increasing heart rate and increase the volume of the cooler blood that gets pumped directly back to the core. It may feel warmer but you are decreasing the amount of time you can be exposed.

        Now if your going to drown obviously swim is the choice :) My tub isn’t that deep thankfully.

      • Joseph Fetz on April 7, 2012 at 09:34

        Ok, I can see an hour, maybe two. But to anybody stating that they are immersed in 40º water for a longer period than that (i.e. 3 or even 4 hours), I am going to have to call them out and say they are full of shit.

      • Adam on April 11, 2012 at 06:49

        This link is interesting: http://www.seagrant.umn.edu/coastal_communities/hypothermia#time

        Those are times for unadapted folks in lakes and rivers – also has some good information on the effects of movement and survival time.

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 6, 2012 at 17:34

        My bother -in-law runs BUDS.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 6, 2012 at 18:03

        In 1984, attending SWO school on Coronado, the BUD training center was just across the street. We both had ocean water, but you’d have to look on Google maps or Earth to see what I mean. We were just south or Coronado on the “silver strand”

        Time of my life,

      • Joseph Fetz on April 6, 2012 at 19:46

        BUD/s is at Amphibious Base Coronado. I had to stay there for a few months while my ship was in the yards, so I got to watch many classes go through the ringer, and many people ring that bell. Plus, I have known many people who have gone to BUD/s.

        I personally never went through BUD/s myself, however I was training to go to EOD/Diver school, but my orders for Sonar “C” school came through before my request for EOD got bottom-lined, so I ended up going surface fleet (which sucked). I spent a year and a half at Fleet ASW training center at Point Loma (A school and C school), then I was stationed on the USS John Paul Jones and then swapped to the USS Higgins (both stationed at 32nd Street Naval Station, San Diego). Other than the whole Navy bit, it was a good time. I usually say that it was the time of my life, but that I would NEVER do it again.

        I had an article published at LewRockwell.com (Robert Murphy asked me to write it) detailing some of my time in the Navy, though I didn’t talk too much about some of the craziness (word limits and all). You can search my name and it will come up. Let’s just say that my time in the Navy is part of what aided in my progression to market anarchism, anarcho-capitalism, libertarianism, or anti-statism; however you prefer to label it.

        Ok, a little off topic. Back to freezing our nuts off in icy cold water.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 6, 2012 at 19:59


        In 8 years as a SWO, the last two on loan to the French, I never one single time pulled into a port in the USA. Not once, though I pulled into port a few hundred times.

        I’m never equivocating when I say it was the time of my life,

      • Joseph Fetz on April 6, 2012 at 20:08

        Doc Harris,

        I just now noticed your original quote near the top of the comments about 4 hours of immersion and saw that you did indeed say that death would be the result. I missed that when I wrote the above, however it was pretty much implied (on your part). At the very least there would be permanent physical injury, which is certainly not a positive attribute.

        If Kruse is to have me believe that he spent numerous hours immersed in 40ºF water, then I am going to need some verifiable proof for me to believe it.

      • Joseph Fetz on April 6, 2012 at 20:21

        I don’t imagine that you are (equivocating).

        Today’s Navy is vastly different than the Navy of your time. Also, I joined right after 9/11, so it goes without saying that a wartime Navy is far different than a peacetime Navy. I’ve heard plenty of stories about the way the Navy used to be, how all you did was visit liberty ports, party and screw. Nowadays, you’re lucky if you get 2-3 ports per deployment, the rest of the time your stuck in the Persian Gulf boarding ships, guarding oil terminals, dealing with boats trying to attack you, getting shot at, and getting 2-4 hours of sleep every other day. Well, at least that was my experience.

        Yeah, today’s Navy sucks, and that isn’t even considering the political aspects. I know plenty of guys with over 12 years (that magic number) that said, “fuck this, I’m outta here”. My Senior Chief was forced into early retirement because he had a nervous breakdown in CIC. A FUCKING SENIOR CHIEF!!! He had more salt on his boots than in the entire state of Utah, and even he couldn’t hack it anymore.

      • Joseph Fetz on April 6, 2012 at 20:28

        Oh, and Richard, don’t get me wrong. As arduous as it was, I would never trade my time in the Navy for anything in the world. If I hadn’t have gone through with it, I would still be blind to how the world really works. It’s a fucked up place, man.

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 8, 2012 at 19:38

        My dad ran the CIC on a destroyer in Viet Nam. All analog back then.

      • Leigh on April 4, 2012 at 18:25

        I’ve seen Wim Hof hold his breath for several minutes under the ice of a frozen lake. He doesn’t just do ice baths.

        But that’s not what I was referring to. I meant, what do you think of Hof’s experiment of injecting himself with pathogenic bacteria to test an immunity he already knew was strong?

      • Evelyn aka CarbSane on April 5, 2012 at 12:18

        Speaking of injecting bacteria — If Jack wanted to test that, why did he need to gain 25 lbs to have elective surgery to do it? Why not inject the bacteria one night before his evening chill-out? The purpose was to demonstrate it wouldn’t take hold … right? Oh, and if he required a surgical cut for his hack, why not just have someone do that for him? Surely after losing 130ish lbs he had some skin to tuck and few surgeons are going to refuse your elective tummy tuck $$.

        Sounds like his summer 2011 carbing got out of hand, he gained some weight, and this was his “bio hack” stunt to cut and explain it away …

      • Leigh on April 5, 2012 at 12:23

        Evelyn, on MDA, you can see quite a few inspiring examples of people losing massive amounts of weight, with little or no loose skin to show for it.

        Losing 100+lb with paleo principles is far different from losing it with WW or bariatric surgery, for instance, and many also use internal and external natural treatments that help the skin recover.

      • Richard Nikoley on April 5, 2012 at 12:51

        “Why not inject the bacteria one night before his evening chill-out?”

        As I understand it the _primary_ thing he was trying to assess was pain management using CT. The MRSA was something secondary.

      • Evelyn aka CarbSane on April 5, 2012 at 13:28

        OK … I’m trying to read some of his FB. It seems he’s treating MRSA with cold therapy and he’s using cold therapy for pain management.

        BUT. What the FUCK is he doing treating MRSA?????????????????????????? Think about that. If it’s true, his patient should be under the care of a specialist — like my own mother was. Her surgeon was concerned about the redness around her scar and sent her straight to the specialist in that area. Now mind you her staph infection responded to antibiotics but only to a point — it would have been nice in retrospect for the initial intervention to be more agressive, but hindsight is 20/20 — but the surgeon only dealt with it directly after consultation with the infection doc and agreement that the implant had to go. His entire intervention was to remove the implant and insert an antibiotic-impregnated temporary. The identification of her strain of staph etc.etc. was not something he was involved in directly, nor was the course of IV AB’s she received post op.

        So based on his “bio hack” of not getting MRSA he’s now willing to try it on a patient with documented MRSA. From FB:

        When the patient video’s come out it will open a lot of eyes. It is hard for some MD’s to see benefits when they are just seeing films or talking to the mind……..and not laying hands on people. Im OK with criticism but this is not about criticism…….I think anyone seeing it live see it for what it is. My ideas are different………but I executed on all my ideas……..so that they could not be deleted by small minds…….and now I am using those ideas to help people who have disorders that modern medicine has no good answers for……….and when they come out we’ll see how the critics audience feels then.


        I have a patient now with MRSA who has failed all Antibiotic treatment for it……so we are using ice for him now. We’ll see how it goes.

        Were this patient my mother, I’d file a complaint with the TN board for even trying to intervene in her care for this issue. If AB’s fail and a novel approach is required, I’ll go find a renegade microbiologist.

        MRSA & pain seem to be two different variables in one experiment on the efficacy of cold. BAD science!!

      • Richard Nikoley on April 5, 2012 at 13:43

        “I have a patient now with MRSA who has failed all Antibiotic treatment for it……so we are using ice for him now. We’ll see how it goes.”

        OK, so from what I understand and from the foregoing, used CT on a patient for pain management and “we are” now using CT for a patient with MRSA who has not responded to conventional.

        The ambiguity is what does “we are” entail. Is he working with the patients other doc(s)? I dunno, but it is ambiguous.

      • Leigh on April 5, 2012 at 13:50

        Evelyn, I don’t know how you usually approach things, but honestly, if I saw something that was ambiguous and wasn’t sure if it was done correctly or wrongly, I would ask directly before assuming the worst and writing long posts about it.

        That’s a lot of emotional energy to spend on something you just don’t know about. As I’ve mentioned elsewhere, it’s common that Kruse throws out little nuggets that sound ridiculous at first, but when he fills in the blanks, it all makes sense. His problem is throwing out the incomplete nuggets.

        I just have little doubt that if you asked, and he thought you were asking genuinely, not just to attack him, he’d tell you that this patient had been under the care of an MRSA specialist, and came to him for care under his own volition, because nothing else had helped.

        The problem is, you assume the worst of him because you hate his writing and you hate his style and you think his experiments are either irresponsible or lies because you learned about them after you already thought he was a nutjob.

        Anyone who read what you posted and knew nothing about the poster would likely assume the missing parts similarly to the way I did.

      • Evelyn aka CarbSane on April 6, 2012 at 05:16

        I have asked Jack genuinely in the past and got arrogantly shit on and had my comments pass into the ether of the internet. I had to post with another ID/email and identified myself for the comment to be posted and he responded. Did he lift the ban on my normal ID? Of course not.

        I do not *hate* anything and I get so tired of this diversionary attack on my character. My blog posts are not about Jack for the most part, they are about his mutilation of science and correcting that science.

        Apparently you checked your similar education at the door along the way to Kruising. Why should someone have to waste their time to decipher what it is anyone is actually saying from what they say, etc. The guy is functionally illiterate and that can’t be explained away as due to typing on an iphone. You don’t typo the errors he makes. If the guy wants to be taken seriously then he should fix that FIRST, or always communicate in audio format.

        I don’t even know the half of his obnoxious and immature rantings on PH. Have you ever differed with Jack? He’s no Mr. Nice Guy if you do, no matter how politely you try.

      • Leigh on April 6, 2012 at 07:02

        FWIW, I posted clarifications of some of the misconceptions about Kruse’s positions on a blog of one of those several here who take the time to detract from him wherever possible. I posted politely and logically and my posts were never put up, while many opposing him and several silly supporting him were.

        I don’t known whether that was accidental or intentional, but don’t feel you’re the only one.

        Saying you hate his writing style is not an attack on your character! If ‘hate’ is too strong, is it not at least close?

        I am sorry that you disbelieve that someone with an education similar to yours (at least in the core curriculum) can disagree on something that is a matter of science (among other things). My thoughts on the items on which I support Kruse have not changed one bit since being introduced to him and his wild “writing” style. I will avoid being insulted by your implication that it is not possible for anyone with a brain & an education to agree with him scientifically on certain points. I just don’t get insulted easily.

        Yes, I have disagreed with, & questioned, him. Politely. Many times. He was Jack back, but never rude.

        He actually writes very clearly when he is motivated to, takes the time to, and isn’t caught up in his dreamer-change-the-world persona. He is far from illiterate. I am far from a lackey.

        As I mentioned elsewhere, I knew nothing of his writing or personality when I started the leptin reset, but it ended the incessant cravings I had had for many years (even while primal and low or high or mod carb), the first day. That drastic success is why I became motivated to “interpret” his writings. I can easily understand why those without such a motivation would not bother to interpret.

        What I can’t understand is why they would follow him around the internet lambasting his positions (which they, *for the most part*, fail to understand (again, HIS fault)) & assuming the worst of all his motivations wherever there is doubt. There are a lot of people I disagree with, think are nuts, and believe are doing harm, but I just can’t understand responding that way. There are far more productive means.

      • Evelyn aka CarbSane on April 6, 2012 at 08:32

        So only apologists like you are being productive in “following him around the internet”. So I comment here and I’m “following him around”?? Where else should I refrain from posting so as not to give you that impression. If anything I can be accused of spending too many blogging hours on the subject of Kruse, but who’s to say what’s important. You don’t have to read my blog and probably haven’t. Fine. I’m about done here. And no, I don’t hate you for saying that and no, hate doesn’t even come close so you can please stop presuming motives on my end, K? I’ve gone out of my way to say that I actually like Jack despite his efforts to make me feel otherwise. OK. Done.

      • Leigh on April 6, 2012 at 09:05

        If I gave the impression I meant it’s about productivity (“it’s ok for me to defend, but not for you to critique”), I apologize. What I meant was that I understand not taking the time to read his blather, and I understand taking the time to critique his work, but I don’t understand choosing to take the time to critique his work IF you haven’t chosen to take the time to read (and understand – difficult, I know, and not because of the material itself) his blather.

        I take the time to understand it, because it has become personally important to me to do so, and so it doesn’t seem a stretch to spend some (this is really the first time I’ve done so for more than 2 minutes, ever) time helping others understand it, as well.

        Yes, I’ve read your blog as well as Harris’ and Richard’s and Shanahan’s and many others, for a very long time.

        BTW, I didn’t say you hate *Jack*. I thought it was pretty clear I was saying you seem to dislike his *style* very strongly.

        Sometimes it feels (in general, from reading you for quite some time) that you try to misunderstand people on purpose. I don’t think that’s true, but it can certainly come off that way. I like to assume the best of folks, until they go out of their way to prove they’re trying to prove they want to screw things up. I feel like you’re getting a lot of ick from me, when that’s not what I feel or am trying to project. I take some of the responsibility so far as my communication efforts reflect that of an engineer. We’re geeks.

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 6, 2012 at 17:38

        The most hilarious thing on this thread is Jack calling me a “maroon” and there is an actual discussion about whether that is a Kruse typo for “moron” or whether instead it is the clever riposte of calling me a “maroon” on purpose…..

      • Leigh on April 6, 2012 at 17:58


      • Richard Nikoley on April 6, 2012 at 18:09

        Just finished listening to Abel James’ podcast with Kruse, recorded when this comment thread was about 400.

        He didn’t call you a maroon, but he did reference you quite a lot.

        I’ll blog about this, but while I’m intrigued and interested in Facor X, which I can’t say because I simply told him I would not, it’s not anywhere near as bright eyed as he says.

      • Leigh on April 6, 2012 at 18:16

        For a while, I’ve had a strong feeling you’re right about that one.

      • Kurt G. Harris MD on April 8, 2012 at 19:40

        I heard factor X is vagal nerve stimulation which is old news. First heard about it 15 years ago. About as revolutionary as gastric bypass if that is what it is….

      • Chloe on April 5, 2012 at 12:55

        This is exactly my theory about the whole thing . . .

      • Melissa on April 4, 2012 at 22:06

        Let’s not take this into sexist territory too. Some of the best winter swimmers are women. We have higher body fat. There are thousands of women who take temperatures that would make Dr. Kruse blanch, all while doing serious cardio exercise.


      • Evelyn aka CarbSane on April 5, 2012 at 10:47

        I couldn’t help but look, apparently us wimpy womenfolk can’t handle cold plunges at all!

        “A great way to help sore muscles or to help rehab an injury, try the cold plunge in our men’s locker room. At 58 degrees, you’ll feel the water’s effect on your body!”

        Of course the wimpy men need it at 58 not 40.

      • Sean on April 5, 2012 at 11:09

        You couldn’t help but find find a club that that advertizes a 58 degress plunge? In the who US of A. Gosh you win the anti-sexist award of the decade.

      • Leigh on April 5, 2012 at 11:46

        Looking at my pitiful typing above… ” just as the majority are not as willing to contemplate what they perceive as extreme physical discomfort as fat as the majority of men are.”

        Make that “FAR.” By no means do I think the majority of men are willing to contemplate a 40 degree bath. I should stop typing while breastfeeding. (superpower)

        Seriously, I just think that most likely answer to why the women’s tub was 20 degrees higher is because that’s what they found the women would be more likely to use. BY NO MEANS does this mean all women on the planet would prefer that!

      • Sean on April 6, 2012 at 05:00

        In all seriousness, I think a free market institution is going to cater it’s equipment and ice baths to it’s clientele. In many cases this might mean they find that the average female client is less interested in super cold ice baths than the average male. In other cases they might be the same or even reversed. I don’t see anything sexist about any of this. But then I grew up watching The Andy Griffith Show and I’m famous for have an awful male gaze.

      • Leigh on April 5, 2012 at 06:22

        What are you talking about? Of course there are some fantastic female swimmers? That doesn’t change the fact that the majority of women are not fantastic swimmers, just as the majority are not as willing to contemplate what they perceive as extreme physical discomfort as fat as the majority of men are.

        We’re not talking about whether Olympic calibre athlete women are likely to do 40 degrees, or even whether I am. We’re talking about most women at the typical gym.

        Fascinating article, btw, guess she’s one of those insane people who would risk her life in cold water. ;) Funny how the article authors attribute her ability to swim in Arctic water & hold her breath for 10 minutes to yoga woo.

      • Leigh on April 5, 2012 at 06:54

        (and, of course, the majority of men are not fantastic swimmers, either, lest I be accused of further sexist comments.) (having to make this kind of disclaimer is inane; I assume you’re not a bigot unless you try hard to prove yourself one; how about we all do the same?)

      • Sean on April 5, 2012 at 07:58

        Look Leigh, just because you are female, doesn’t mean you are above the charge of sexism. YOU ARE A VICTIM OF THE PATRIARCHY!

        You’ve been taking a lot of flak on the comments here, and you’ve continued to be very reasonable yet stuck to your guns. I’ve got a lot of respect for that. As for people who whip out the PC guns at the first opportunity, not so much. Why should you have to prove you aren’t a sexist woman? Good question.

      • Sean on April 5, 2012 at 06:45

        “There are thousands of women who take temperatures that would make Dr. Kruse blanch, all while doing serious cardio exercise. ”

        Let’s not take this into racist territory either. How white Dr Kruse’s skin get’s when immersed in cold water is not apropos. In fact, all skin blanches when exposed to cold due to transient ischemia.

      • Contemplationist on May 7, 2012 at 12:18


      • Lululemon on April 5, 2012 at 15:14

        I grew up in San Francisco, swam with the insane folks in the Polar Bear club, trained in an unheated pool. I recall that I actually had a layer of subcutaneous chub that melted off during track and field season.

        What concerns me is that the people who are jumping into these ice baths are not young healthy competitive athletes, like those in your link, or like the 6os version of me, but are a bunch of sedentary overweight desperate women.

    • Meredith on April 4, 2012 at 14:35

      I just want to support Evelyn’s statement about Jack’s potentially shaky mental state. I am not a science person, but I have read his blogs, yes all of them. Don’t quiz me though. I’m still trying to uncross my eyes.

      I first met Dr. Kruse on Paleohacks last year and was initially very supportive and interested in reading what he was laying down. My support of him ended quickly. He told a story about kicking his wife and daughter out of the house when they refused to adhere to his dietary protocol. As a wife and mom that pretty much colored everything for me from that point on.

      In his most recent experiment, the story goes, he went and had this surgery without his wife or daughter’s knowledge and when he got home he was screaming in agony begging them to cover him in 120 lbs of ice. Maybe I am a cunt, but if that ever happened in my house the next conversation I would be having with my husband would be through an attorney.

      I truly wanted to post links and provide quotes, but I can no longer find the forum posts or paleohacks comments in which he says these things. Sorry. He has a history of deleting comments on paleohacks. I can’t say for sure that’s what happened here, but if it is, that is pretty telling.

      I really enjoy the Paleo community, I support our leaders, I am not interested in carving out marketshare for myself since I am a nobody. Personally I think that flat out ignoring Jack would not only really good for the Paleo community, but also good for Jack. I could be totally off base, but it feels like he’s heading for a massive train wreck.

      • Jules on April 5, 2012 at 06:41

        Meredith, I support your statement, and I don’t think you’re a cunt at all! :)

      • Evelyn aka CarbSane on April 5, 2012 at 10:16

        Thanks Meredith, I wonder if any of Jack’s friends have even considered intervening? Or is the 20 car pile up just too much rubbernecking to pass up :(

  67. Adam on April 4, 2012 at 12:37

    I’ve been easing into CT. I actually love a cold shower as much as I can do/handle. I’ll humbly admit that I’m a wuss and it’s tough getting used to it, haha.

    As for the video, it’s only as offensive as the watcher allows it to be. I’ve seen “Joes on the street corner” claiming to be God. Claiming to be the next coming. Etc.. As for the acting in the video, it’s pretty intense indeed. Although admiring his enthusiasm as a surgeon, obviously I can’t agree/be totally okay with his claiming of being God. Why? Because I am happy to be a man of faith and I do believe in God. Now, I’m not disrespecting surgeons, but I’ve met surgeons that also have faith. They just humble themselves vs. come forth pridefully as he did in the video. I’m also not a “brain washed on my knees in the church” Christian either. Church isn’t a building, it’s the body of people. Most common religious folk make me /facepalm.

    I’m not religious (as in I claim no denomination) but I do have faith in God. Through the “spitting on” and hatred I see against a God on this blog, I chose to NOT be offended and ignore it. Even though it’s pretty severe and uncalled for at times but called upon by ignorant religious folk, it’s not my blog, neither is it my business to have a say in it. Attitude is everything and to be hurt by others opinions will only eat me away. And posting as a “loud and proud” Christian (“wah wah, you’re going to hell for being so crude”) is only asking to be trolled and flamed. Neither is it loving like a true individual of faith should be. People will do/say/believe what they will. I can’t force beliefs down their throat.

    Even though you’re intense at times, anti-what I believe in in certain subjects, I still read and follow. Have for a long time. I’m not better than you are, respect you as a human being, and will keep reading. Just try not to attack my faith too hard due to the sad, ignorant believers who put the belief in God to shame.


    • Richard Nikoley on April 4, 2012 at 13:22

      I’m cool with all that, Adam. What you describe to me me really strikes more of deism than Christianity.

    • Adam on April 4, 2012 at 14:48

      This is Adam from earlier comments – but I always put religion in the same bucket as politics. Not for conversation unless I know I am in a room of the same – minded people.

  68. LeonRover on April 4, 2012 at 13:57

    Sherpas got to K 2 before Everest – as did Jack!!

  69. Bill Strahan on April 4, 2012 at 15:17

    As someone who LOVES a cold bath, and has been playing with them on and off for years, I feel the statement that an hour in 50f water often leads to death seems overblown.

    Admittedly, I can tolerate the cold pretty well.

    I learned about 20 years ago that I could control my body heat to an extent. I can generate heat to the point of pouring sweat in about 10 minutes just by concentrating on it. No, it’s not woo-woo either. No yoga, meditation, whatever. Just self discovery.

    I originally thought it interesting that I got hot and sweaty when I got angry, and then spent some time over a few months seeing if I could recreate the feeling without the anger. It made sense to me that it’s just a physiological process with some degree of control. It turns out I could, and I played with heating up my torso and my hands. It does require some concentration.

    In any case, I regularly take 45 minute baths in 45-50 degree water. I usually don’t shiver at all during the bath, although I may shiver for 5 to 10 minutes a few minutes after getting out. The water is up to my chin, though my feet are not in above my heels. Feet-in usually results in my shivering before the 45 minutes is up.

    So, is Jack crazy? Heck if I know. Heck if I care, really. But I find it near impossible to believe that I’m regularly going 3/4 of the way to death when I take a cold bath. If I am then I recover quickly, because I’ve had some intense workouts within a half half hour of a good cold bath and felt and performed very well.

    As to the benefits, I can say this: First, I’m not affected much by extremes of temperature any more. Very cold or very hot are just fine with me. Second, just a 30 minute cold bath is enough to eliminate soreness from hard/heavy workouts. Third, I feel great afterwards. I can’t make any bigger claims than that, but that’s enough for me to have them.

    Last point, when someone says “ice bath” that can mean many different things which is why I’m saying cold bath. I make 5 ten-pound blocks of ice to cool off the water in a tub or trough. By the time I get in, the water has dropped to 45-49 degrees and the now smaller blocks are floating in the tub with me. By the time I get out, the combination of my body heat and the heat of the surrounding air has warmed the tub to 49-53 degrees and there are STILL ice blocks floating with me. The surface area of a few big blocks of ice just isn’t enough to cool the water down faster than the much larger surface area of my body and the tub.

    So when someone says they’re in an ice bath, unless it’s lots and lots of tiny pieces of ice and it’s been sitting there a long time to stabilize at a low temperature, the bath is probably nowhere near freezing. It’s DANG hard to get the temps below 45 with me in the tub, even if I’m in an outdoor tub on a 40 degree day.

    • Evelyn aka CarbSane on April 4, 2012 at 15:59

      What kind of tub are you in with 10 lb blocks of ice bobbing around in there with you?

      • Bill Strahan on April 4, 2012 at 20:40

        Either my bathroom tub or a livestock feed/water trough. The trough can go in the back of my truck, which is nice. :)

        Remember a 10 lb block of ice is only about 1.5 gallons, so even 5 of those represents less than 8 gallons displacement. By the time I get in, they’re about 2/3 melted, so maybe a couple of gallons out of 40-50. Not a big deal except when it floats up onto my shin. Then I push it away.

      • Evelyn aka CarbSane on April 5, 2012 at 09:32

        Wow Bill, you are one HOT shit! Imagine, you are able to generate enough body heat to warm 40 gallons of water about 4 degrees faster than remaining ice blocks can cool it. And the water gets warmer but the ice doesn’t melt away. Yep, someone should call the Guiness folks.

      • Bill Strahan on April 5, 2012 at 19:19

        Wow, what a phenomenally rude and obnoxious thing to say. You asked what kind of tub, I answered and pointed out that it’s not a lot ice. I didn’t brag about my ability to warm the water, for God’s sake, I was just answering your question and pointing out that 10 pound blocks of ice aren’t all that big.

        Did I do something to trigger this response, or are you just a mean spirited and spiteful person?

      • Al on April 5, 2012 at 19:44

        “Wow, what a phenomenally rude and obnoxious thing to say.”

        Bill… meet Evelyn.

      • Bill Strahan on April 5, 2012 at 20:19

        Eh, I’ll stay open minded. Perhaps she saw something in what I wrote that she took as insulting to her or she interpreted in a way other than what I meant. A lot is lost in text only communication.

      • Evelyn aka CarbSane on April 6, 2012 at 04:59

        Hi Bill, Wow, I gotta say that I never expected this response to sarcasm here on Richard’s blog. I was being sarcastic because I didn’t feel like launching into Thermo. If I insulted you I apologize, it was not my intent. Think about what you were claiming. You add ice to water, it cools the water by (a) absorbing heat bringing it to 0 degrees C (my freezer has a digi readout and the recommended setting is 0F = -18C) and melting. Now you claim that you get in this chilly water with partially melted ice and you are radiating enough heat to warm the water 4 degrees F while the ice remains unmelted. Does that make sense to you? I hope not …

      • Sean on April 6, 2012 at 05:53

        You have to admit the math is a little wonky, Bill. It takes around 8000 joules to raise a gallon of water 1 degree F. So it would take around 8000 x 40 x 5 = 1.6 million joules to raise a 40 gallon tub 5 degrees assuming you don’t melt any more of the ice, ~380 000 calories (assuming I didn’t screw up the math). Of course this assumes that no energy is gained from the surrounding air and ground. Now I don’t doubt you have a lot of experience with ice baths, but I doubt your body is burning off more than 100 pounds of fat every time you take an ice bath ;)

      • Bill Strahan on April 6, 2012 at 07:32

        Yes, the math is totally wonky. And if this was a lab experiment in which the ice was added, the temperature allowed to stabilize, and then outside influence were minimized and allowed for I’d see YOUR point. I still don’t see the point in Evelyn’s response to my cordial response to her.

        Now, back to the math. This isn’t a theoretical experiment. I can assure you that if I put some large blocks of ice in my tub, the temperature will not reach 0c even though there are still large pieces of ice left in the tub. In fact, while even says I claimed that, I didn’t. There is a RATE to heat transfer after all.

        And in my original post, I said some combination of my body heat and surrounding air…I should have added the thermal mass of the tub, and the foundation of my house to that explanation.

        Perhaps if Evelyn had asked a question as opposed to a simple ridiculing attack this would all make sense.

        And finally, I DO in fact burn off 100 pounds of fat every time I take an ice bath. And it has turned me into superman.

        See, no stranger to sarcasm. Notice it wasn’t an attack on another person, yet still sarcastic. Hmmm.

      • Bill Strahan on April 6, 2012 at 07:42

        There is a difference between sarcasm and ridiculing someone. Regardless, I see it wasn’t your intention to insult me. Apology accepted.

        I didn’t claim the water was 0 decrees C. And I didn’t claim that I got in that and radiated enough heat to warm the water. I pointed out it was a combination of my heat and the surrounding air, but should have pointed out it was more due to the thermal mass of the entire system.

        My tub is not a closed system. :)

        Does it make sense to me that I can raise 40 gallons of water 4 degrees f in 45 minutes. Nope. I never claimed that.

        Does it make sense to me that a 10 pound block of ice will not totally melt if placed in 40-45 degree F still water in 45 minutes? Sure. I see it all the time.

        Would a block of ice remain intact in a body of water indefinitely? No.

        I’m not even sure what is being argued, in particular when I’m describing my actual experiences. Digital thermometer in the water. I get it from about 65 tap to 45-50f. 45 minutes later there are still some blocks of ice floating in the approximately 50f water.

      • Sean on April 6, 2012 at 08:01

        “And finally, I DO in fact burn off 100 pounds of fat every time I take an ice bath. And it has turned me into superman.”

        Really? I’m totally doing this!

        Honestly, I didn’t think her comment was that bad, but this is coming from a guy who got suspended from PaleoHacks for telling Kurt Harris to piss off. Civility is fine and dandy, and is great for serious, sciencey blogs, but sometimes it’s nice to be a bit more obnoxious and sarcastic, like in real life. Well, maybe you aren’t like that in real life, and, uh, neither am I. Okay, I’m totally sarcastic in real life, just not John Stewart smarmy sarcastic (I hope).

        Anyway, I thought your comments on your experiences with ice baths were great and my impression was that Evelyn was just teasing you a bit about the physics, I wouldn’t take it personally.

      • Evelyn aka CarbSane on April 6, 2012 at 08:49

        Thank you Sean, yes, I was teasing. Sorry, I forgot the ;)

        @Bill, I explained and apologized and yet you persist in feeling like I malicously attacked you. C’mon man. Even if I had meant it in a mean spirited way, it’s hardly that offensive at that!

        Your scenario doesn’t make thermodynamic sense unless you’re like a hot plate which was where “hot shit” came from. If a heater were put on in the tub or something it’s conceivable that the water could warm before all of the ice melted, but this presumes a much faster transfer of heat from heater (or you) to water than water to ice. Doesn’t make sense.

        Your point is taken about the temperature of the water depending on the starting temp of the water to start and the amount of ice. However the factors you are citing, room temp and your generating body heat would melt the ice.

        Also, Jack claimed to regularly use 80 lbs of ice in his baths for 2-4 hours and for the post-surgery stunt bath, 120 lbs. It’s the claimed hourS that crosses the truth/believability barrier regardless of how long Wim Hof can last in an ice cube packing.

      • Sean on April 6, 2012 at 09:16

        Rather off topic, but this reminds me of a chem 101 teacher who said it doesn’t matter the amount of ice you put in your glass as long as the ice is in stasis.

        “I tell my kids not to put a bunch of ice in their Coke because it doesn’t make a difference, as long as there is unmelted ice in the glass.”

        Even a six-year-old kid knows from experience this is bullshit. Probably why this guy was teaching chem 101.

        I guess the obvious fallacy there was that the ice is never in stasis, so of course, the more the better.

      • Evelyn aka CarbSane on April 6, 2012 at 10:29

        @Bill: Hopefully before I ignite a shitstorm you will read this. When I responded to Sean I had read your first response but not the second where you accepted my apology. So I wanted you to know that as I hadn’t read that one before writing that response. Hopefully the threading (that I realize Richard has no control over) will put this in proper context.

      • Adam on April 6, 2012 at 10:31

        Hi Bill,

        I did pretty well in thermodynamics and have similar experience and your exactly right heat transfer and melting takes time – people are so eager to label anyone close to this idiots they do not read close enough or take time to think it through.

        My experience is the same – I monitor temps my local reservoir is pretty cool and tap water right now is still running ~50F. I fill a two person garden tub with it and only have to add about a 5 gallon bucket of ice with 4 gallon size bag bricks of ice to get it down to 45F when all melted (30+ minutes for the larger chunks to melt). I soak for an hour and temp generally ends up in the 52-54F area with a stable core temp and skin temps of 55F.

        Lots of factors to add in the model – how much of the warming is from air interaction, tub interaction, body generated etc….you can even add in the rate of melting of ice volume which changes as the total surface area of ice changes which also changes based on the total rate at which the water is warming. If I get board I could drag out the Thermo book and do a crude approximation – either way we have not violated any physical laws :)

        Just like the body and thermodynamics there are so many more variables to make the model accurate and find all the energy sources and sinks.

        Evelyn – I can’t decipher with Jack’s ice baths whether he is referring to water w/ice baths or just ice. Again depending on the form of the ice and exposed surface rates of melting could be drastically different. Big bricks verse cubes and with or without water would make a big difference.

      • Adam on April 6, 2012 at 10:38

        Evelyn – I see your questioning the hours for Kruse not the ice melt – sorry should have read closer too :) Yeah 4 hours seems out there but maybe not impossible from experience – it took me a month to adapt to an hour starting with 45F water so maybe.

        I don’t have the time to sit and work up to it though. I have a day job :)

      • Evelyn aka CarbSane on April 6, 2012 at 10:55

        Hey! I teach Chem 101 and you are being rude and obnoxious to such teachers everywhere! ;) :D

      • Adam on April 6, 2012 at 11:24

        My chem 101 teacher walked into the lecture hall didn’t say a word, lit a wick on the end of a stick, and then lit off a pure hydrogen balloon followed by a hydrogen/oxygen mixture balloon the first day then asked us if we knew why one explosion was larger than the other. Second balloon literally shook the hall.

        Everyone loved his class and paid attention.

        The only teachers I go out of my
        way to be obnoxious to are English teachers – mortal enemies of all engineers :)

      • Sean on April 6, 2012 at 11:34

        Evelyn, I was merely referring to chem 101 teachers who perpetuate stupid counterintuitive non-science. I’m sure you are excluded from this set ;)

        I also had a high school physics teacher who was convinced that you would stand on the INNER floor of a revolving space station because the acceleration vector of a revolving body points towards the center. Pretty amazing I managed to survive my education, come to think of it.

        It got better.

      • John W on April 7, 2012 at 05:20

        The 100 pounds of fat calculation is off by a factor of 1000 because a food calorie is actually a kilocalorie. It would only take 1/10 pound of fat, or about 380 calories (kilocalories) to raise the water temp as much as he claims. That doesn’t even account for heat from the surroundings. A 1o5 degree bath cools to 100 in just a few min, works the same both directions. Ice has a low thermal conductivity, so its quite likely for some ice not to be melted at this point as well.

      • Sean on April 7, 2012 at 07:33

        Aw, nice catch, John. A calorie is 4.184 joules. But the number of calories in a pound of fat is actually 3500 kcal or 3 500 000 calories. So the the math isn’t wonky at all.

      • Bill Strahan on April 7, 2012 at 10:59

        Oh hell no, Evelyn, it’s on! We’ll meet in “Murder Alley” after school. :)

        Of course everything is fine. I totally got how you meant it. I was just taken aback by the seemingly innocent question, my genuine reply, followed by what felt like an attack. I’m clear on how you meant it. No harm, no foul.

        Wow, civilized people having a conversation on the internet. I guess we can be statistical outliers here in the comments.

        Back to the points, there is a much faster transfer of heat from me to the water than the ice to the water. The biggest block of ice is perhaps 12″ by 8″ by 4″ at the point I get in. Compare that to my surface area, and I’m influencing the temp more than the ice.

        Also, the delta temp between me and the water is much greater than the ice and the water at that point.

        And finally, I’m going to use this exchange in casual conversation with my wife, totally dropping context. “This gal on the internet thinks I’m hot.” That should get some mileage…

      • Ray Cronise on April 7, 2012 at 11:26

        You are correct. The generic number I came up with about three years ago when working with Tim on The 4 Hour body is that the energy to melt, and raise to body temperature, 66 lbs of ice = 1 lb of fat (3500 Kcals).

        later I did a one dimensional solution to Founier’s law and then a more sophisticated model using mathematic that took into account skin thickness, adipose tissue, and muscle.

        It turns out that sitting in 27C water (80F), which is where mild cold stress begins, burns about 2.4x RMR or for the average 100 watt human, or about 240 watts. This was compared to actual measurements of metabolism that range about 230-270W, so I considered it solved. (btw, using watts here as that takes into account time so that 1 watt is .86 kcal/hour ).

        Air gets MUCH more complex as does the overall metabolic response to extended time with mild cold stress.

        Because of vasoconstriction and vasodilation (happens in SECONDS not minutes), the body is VERY good at conserving heat. This is why Tim and I took slightly different routes. I was using overall chronic mild cold stress and Tim was trying to engage and recruit BAT. I think that the bigger picture is that overall we see fundamental metabolic changes as a response to cold stress.

        Total time in ice baths is not the key. Cold stress activates the basic genetic protective pathways, just like t