#Misandry #Misogyny
Did you get the memo concerning the huge problem of misandry in our culture?
Misandry (pron.: /mɪˈsændri/) is the hatred or dislike of men, the hatred of maleness; it typically does not refer to a hatred of individuals but of men as a group or class.
Suppose we design a test to eliminate confounding variables as much as we can. As you can see from the definition, misandry (and misogyny as well) is not about one’s judgment of any particular individual (y’know, like how every racist has a best friend who’s black). One way to do that might be to design a study such that you eliminate that individual element, so that judgments are based on base, knee-jerk reactions to photographs of people of the opposite gender they don’t know. In both cases—men judging women and women judging men—they’re essentially judging pure perceived intrinsic characteristics of strangers.
Could we then perhaps tease out a generalized bias and from that, draw any associations or conclusions between the general misandry of women vs. the general misogyny of men? Well, that’s for you to judge for yourselves; but as it turns out, we have data. Turns out that online dating sites are a pretty interesting source of data mining and even explicit testing.
The folks at OkCupid did just that. I came across this Wall Street Journal link parade via a Mike Eades tweet this morning. It references a blog post by Christian Rudder of OkCupid: Your Looks and Your Inbox. There’s a number of interesting data, but I’ll just focus on the first part. Go check out the post for the rest.
The WSJ post is more to the direct point, so I’ll quote from that.
OkCupid asks male and female users to rate the attractiveness of members of the opposite sex on a six-point scale, in which 0 is the least attractive and 5 is the most. The light line in the nearby chart shows the distribution of female attractiveness as rated by men. As you can see, it is close to a normal distribution–call it the belle curve. That is, the average woman’s looks are “medium,” or 2.5; and so are the median woman’s, as there are approximately the same number above and below the midpoint, with the numbers declining more or less evenly approaching either extreme.
Male Messaging Curve
So you have two data sets here. The light line is the attractiveness curve where men were asked to rate women 0-5. Pretty fair, eh? Perfect Bell Curve, which occurs throughout nature. One might call it a natural distribution. The other, darker line, represents the actual behavior of men in the choices of who they are going to message in an attempt to make contact.
Now for the Womym.
The second chart is the same as the first, with the sexes reversed: The light line shows the distribution of male attractiveness as rated by women on OkCupid. The average gent, it seems, is quite unsightly. More than a quarter of men are 0’s, and it appears a majority rate 1 or below. “Women rate an incredible 80% of guys as worse-looking than medium,” Rudder notes. “Very harsh.”
Female Messaging Curve
I’ll emphasize. While the misogynists gave womyn a pretty fair shake—half below average and half above—the misadrists Howitzered the gentlemen. “More than a quarter of men are 0’s, and it appears a majority rate 1 or below. ‘Women rate an incredible 80% of guys as worse-looking than medium.'”
Oh, my. Does seem to throw a bit of a monkey wrench into the notion that guys hate women and women are just victims.
OK. [/sarcasm]
I think the fact that’s most interesting to me is the difference in behavior given the group distributed perception. The guys see female attractiveness as a natural distribution but go after the perceived hotties. The women, knowing other women, have given up. They think men are basically gross and there’s just no point in going after the tiny few Brad Pitts they perceive otherwise, and so settle on a potential stable provider.
How fucking evolutionary.
Imagine a world where both human males and females exist (as they are now, which is largely based on sexual reproduction—so suspend disbelief), but reproduction is asexual for both. Prediction: the women go extinct from starvation whilst bickering with one-another and the guys keep making shit in their garages, in-between hunting excursions for food. Or, for every fancy dinner party the wife puts on, husband would have preferred just eating a sandwich over the sink—and getting back to the garage where his homemade nuclear warhead is nearing completion.
OK. [//sarcasm]. For real this time.
There’s really no such thing—real thing—as misandry or misogyny. Racism, yes, because it’s a quite different prejudice epistemologically and behaviorally. “Misandry” and “misogyny” are ridiculous, weasel, loaded words by definition, a mere word game—the sole point being to put you on the defensive…and why you never hear the word misandry and always hear the word misogyny (sour grapes). Sure, at the vast extremes, there may be women who just hate men metaphysically, and vise-versa. But that’s a recipe for extinction—and have you noticed the population curve vs. excess caloric intake since Paul R. Ehrlich doomed us to extinction in 1968 from starvation (…and that lying opportunistic moron still teaches at Stanford)?
What you have is men being men and women being women; a simple function of sexual reproduction since time immemorial, each contemplating the others’ innate proclivities, endearing indiosyncacies, values and perception of reality—and what must be done in the fact and face of it. Reality can suck, so what you really have is a natural, grass-is-greener resentment in both directions. Men have never generally shirked their role—going even so far as to go to war and kill people to maintain their perceived sense of life & culture, institutionally. Nor have women, who have wholeheartedly supported men in killing vast others every single step of the way.
Men know this and so do women. Accordingly, men have the luxury of being sloppy, gross, geeky…farting at will and laughing about it—and go for the trophy because they are hunters and love a challenge. Women have no such luxury at all. They go for stability, ability, loyalty and a whole lot of other things that are not only not correlated with Brad Pitt looks but more likely, are inversely correlated.
This is why you have romance novels. What’s the male equivalent? …Tom Clancy.
It’s just what I call the general, natural, healthy antagonism that keeps making the world go round and round. Or, men love hating on women—because they almost never get what they want. And women love hating on men—because they almost never get what they want. Look at the graphs again if you don’t believe that glorious reality.
In the end what’s really cool is that most of us, with a little perspective and the virtue of time and a bit of age, come to realize that not only did we make our own souls as we created our lives, we influenced the making of the soul of the one we imperfectly chose to be with. …And vice-versa.
Of course, this is all just hoopla, because we have “advanced feminism,” now. Yeeha!
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Richard, you’re right, ‘Nouvelle Vague’ is a brilliant concept. Granted, it’s all covers, but I love to see new styles and arrangements of already established tunes.
Most people tend to prefer a perfect recreation of a song, but as a musician, I prefer to see some further creativity involved (any decent musician can play any old tune as it was originally played). The fact that it is in the Bossa Nova style is even better (I love most Brazilian styles of music).
Nigel, Richard, “If the population is large enough”, yup, at least for dating sites in general.
See :
As to sarcasm, yay!
But….Rudder’s conclusions are plain stupid. No, most People (men/women/whatever) are Not considered attractive, when looking at most of the specific characteristics of attractiveness. Think about it, a third of the population is obese, another third is overweight. Two thirds are going to be low on the attractiveness scale when thinking of weight. But wait…how many men are ‘tall’? Muscular? Or how many women are below 5’5″ with a slender waist? The attractiveness ‘criteria’ have always been about what is Least common. Think rubanesque, back when scrawny was the norm. Or how Blonds get mobbed in Dark-haired countries.
So….sarcasm alert: the women are just honest evaluators and the men are less discriminating because they’re just….horny! My mother always did tell me, men want just one thing :)
OkCupid users, eh? Think about it.
Perhaps Melissa McEwen is simply a bad person.
There are bad people who are women, and bad people out there who are men. No complicated explanations needed, really. Some people are good, and some people are the opposite.
You know what I think about, Nigel?
I think, every know and then, about how you have no more of a life than Evelyn. Why don’t you just go fuck off back there? I was missing you for a while—I’ll admit it. I’m cured. Thanks.
Great, now let’s see how they rate themselves. There’s the rest of the story!
…And, Nigel:
youtu.be/aH3x1PSYcm8
“now let’s see how they rate themselves. ”
You clever misadrist, you. I actually toyed with speculating over that (over an American Spirit ciggie) but decided it would make the post too long and not enough ironic.
Actually, I was wondering how those women who rated men so unfairly thought of themselves. Misandrist? Um, no. Proud misogynist!
That’s it, Richard! This time you’ve gone too far.
You fuck with Andy Partridge, and you’re fucking with me, got it?
youtu.be/s29RKnB7l7o
And don’t go bringing that weak Primus cover of “Making Plans for Nigel” up in here either.
Ha ha. In jest, of course.
“Perhaps Melissa McEwen is simply a bad person.”
I firmly believe that such can only be determined over the course of time. She sill has a balance sheet that’s somewhere. She created HGL, which was respected by myself and others. Then we have PD, which I think I’m safe in saying is regarded as a net minus. I mean, who’s saying “this blog is great,” even supposing every jitter over myself and others were completely true and fully in context?
One of the biggest mistakes young people make, and I know because I made the same one, is to confuse producing something with tearing down what others have produced, pretending it’s production—rather than just going out and doing something you think is better.
The rub is, it’s way easier to do that former thing, and fits right in with adopting a lazy disposition. You can get pats on the back by being a bit clever and moving fingers. It’s so great. I’m as susceptible as she, that’s why I say it. I’m somewhat guilty too, which is why I go out of my way to identify and herald good work _generally_ and try only to attack those truly harming people (SAD and all involved, including drug pushers euphemistically referred to as MD). Those like Melissa and Evelyn attack those they attack BECAUSE of their virtue.
Pay attention to that last sentence.
For all the warts, these are folks of virtue and Melissa and Evelyn only attack them for that reason. If they didn’t have virtue, then you would have to say that most people don’t have any virtue, to account for their popularity. It’s not a popularity ordained by MSM, authority or institutionally (quite the contrary, actually)—but by the choices people have made. So, you’re left with, in the analysis of the actions of Melissa and Evelyn: everyone is fucking stupid; the people you have chosen to speak to you are evil, which makes you stupid. Yes: Melissa’s PD and Evelyn’s CS are an in your face affirmation that you are all stupid fucks who can’t decide anything for yourselves and ought not be left the “luxury.”
Paleo people are the smartest, most independent folks around in spite of all the silliness (I trust it changes over time and is rather like a revolving door—you go in stupid and bright eyed, come out realistic with a decent sense). And those two attack the whole thing, make fun, whilst hundreds of million are slaving away with low fat and spending hours on treadmills.
And all the while, all we get in return for all that BS is Nigel-Cunt, whom I am already seriously, seriously tired of. He simply will not get a clue. What a surprise.
Richard, “of whom”, hanging around Bea hasn’t rubbed-off even a little all these years?
.
Tiens. That was my best Nigel impersonation. Some blokes just don’t appreciate this man, what can I tell you.
Sadie:
To me, the data tells me how the whole thing is baked into the cake (dismissing Nigel’s fucktard comment). My question is, are men generally ‘I don’t care, I think she’s hot or she’s ugly’ but the women, swayed by all the victimization crap, such that they have just learned to have a chip on their shoulders, indoctrinated as to how bad off they are because there’s not a Brad Pitt coming to put a glass slipper on their foot.
Hell, you tell me.
And Damn it, Richard! “American Spirit ciggie” ?!
Did you really think I wouldn’t catch that?
After all the time I’ve spent the last two days catching-up with PD, I’ve learned a thing or two about Recognizing and Calling-out misogynist insults.
You’ve obviously Rejected my earlier suggestion of Virginia Slims. I’m hurt.
‘Yes: Melissa’s PD and Evelyn’s CS are an in your face affirmation that you are all stupid fucks who can’t decide anything for yourselves and ought not be left the “luxury”.’
You’ve just put into words what has been bugging me about the PC Paleo Brigade all along – this whole business about our “leaders” having to tell us who we can and can’t be “friends” with, who we can and can’t link to, etc. All so bloody juvenile and schoolyard bully appealing to “teacher” when someone stands up to them.
Well said!
Where the fuck has that useless cunt from Prague been lately? I usually only scan the comments for his input and he’s fucking dropped off the fucking radar. What a cunt!
Nigel, what would give Evilyn on the 0-5 scale? How likely are you to message her for a date? What scores do you think she’d give you?
@Geoff
Ha, sorry to step on toes. Actually, a few years back I did a whole post on Nouvelle Vague (New Wave, in French). They have a few albums, and all are basically bossa nova covers of 70s punk and new wave using various female leads. It’s brilliant, especially when they sing ‘fuck me’ in bossa nova. :)
Look into it.
@ladysadie1, clever wordplay and from a country ‘bumpkin’! Who woulda thunk! There ain’t no real women left here, naw. I guess you didn’t get the memo either, huh? I been on Mari’s case about that already.
So maybe I can’t let go of Woo’s rant post, but hey, I’m not advocating she tear it down for being so insulting to (some) women. Not that Woo herself would advocate any tearing down, or I suspect, ‘advocate’ at all. She’ll just argue, obviously, or not. Free freakin’ choice.
I’m thinking Melissa should get a clue from some of these other, actually sane, women. I like to read them all, bloggers and edgy commenters, and I can’t stand the idea that an earnest, overly-sensitized Child is pushing so much sick-speak that they’ll all look away from Everywhere the infection has spread. Out of sheer disgust. So there’ll be no place left for good reading at all. Ya’ll gotta push back and she needs to leave the insanity to the one self-certified nut.
NAV
“Nigel, what would give Evilyn on the 0-5 scale? How likely are you to message her for a date? What scores do you think she’d give you?”
I was just thinking over a late lunch about the other thread. Nigel is over there, comment after comment defending whom? Someone who has literally put up about 12 successive posts, many hugely long and detailed, over one guy who told her to go fuck herself on twitter.
Nigel IS Evelyn.
@marie
If it makes you feel any better, I bum a Vagina Slim off my friend Julie every now & then. I think they’re up to 120mm by now, which makes me wonder what that’s all about. :)
My bad: “gotta”. Oh noez, I guess it sure is easy to fall into ‘shoulding’ when excited. I meant to ask nicely. Please don’t let one lost crusader torch everything. That’s all.
Richard, they’re Slim cheri, so the length dimension just doesn’t matter :)
.
Sidonie, fwiw, I think you can relax, ma belle. No one’s going anywhere as far as I can see. People drift in and out of conversations and blogs all the time. It would be really surprising if the independent-minded women (or men for that matter) who populate paleo blogs in an unusually high percentage, were bullied by idiotic orthodoxy of Any kind. Been there, done that, eh?
Geoff
Check out the cover of Dance with Me, set to an old French black & white film, perhaps of the same name.
Joseph
I’m no musician, but the other side of the coin with passion. Takes, two, right, otherwise you’re just playing with yourself. :)
We’d get along fine. I’ve often blogged my various rock tastes which run to lots of Prog Rock, Rush, others. But I love my south of the border stuff. I have not spent much time to sort out artists and various particular regional or national styles, but I have lots of substantial mix sorts of albums with lots of obscure stuff from all over south.
In terms of a national identity, my heart is with the Cubans. Man oh man I can listen to their pre-revolution stuff for hours. What amazing muscians. And don’t even get me stated on Perez Prado and Voodoo Suite…
Richard, of course you spell it correctly in th etext, but your misspelling in the title is unintentionally Hilarious.
You see, ‘andras’ (άνδρας) is ‘man’, but without that little “n”, ‘adros'(αδρός) is ‘crude’ (or coarse, depends).
So ‘Misadry’ would be a hatred of coarseness – just what you’re most accused of, you f’ing dick!
Well, at least I Think it’s unintentional, unless you too have been taking lessons from LeonRover (och, can you tell I miss the guy?)
Shit.
Fixed. Thanks. At least it didn’t fuck up my SEO too badly. Nobody ever searches for misadry, only misogyny.
De rien, toujours ….oh Richard :p
I see you didn’t think about it.
You’ve overlooked something fundamental that makes your conclusions about the OkCupid data invalid.
Selection Bias.
Good night.
Nigel, let me tell you what you humorlessly didn’t think about, before I tell you what I did think about but didn’t bother with and because you’re humorless it all goes over your Karaoke singing head.
You didn’t think about 2–count ’em–2 sarcasm tags. That means I’m not being rigorous, such as in my brain-gut post of yesterday for contrast. That means someone with an ounce of humor ought to spend some of it here when called for.
…and yea, duh, it’s a self selected population and not randomly selected. Or, so called. If the population is large enough, it’s going to likely approximate social norms anyway. And if you think study subjects for RCTs aren’t often scrutinized and screened for likelihood of getting an expected result, then you sing too much Karaoke.
Good post. It just goes to show that visual attractiveiness makes up only a tiny portion of male attractiveness as evaluated by hetero females, and that online dating is a shitty venue because it doesn’t allow a man to really shine.
It is my duty to point out that Roissy covered this years ago. But–welcome to the manosphere. You might as well own it, you’re linked to by half a dozen MRA/PUA blogs.
@marie
Yes, yes, yes. And yes and shit. Why does anyone think I titled the post misandry and misogyny? It was meant to be not quite serious to begin with. There are grains of interest, however. Most interesting to me is the difference in the data sets. One interpretation is that men are just more visual (yep, looks good, let’s go) whereas women require foreplay.
@Revo Hey, they’re all welcome here. I’ve spoken at Anthony’s 21 Convention last two years and proud of it. Had I not done that I would have never known that just as anywhere, there are shitheads, and guys who take being their ideal self seriously.
Richard, is that a yes? xD
Meanwhile, you have a new slip, ‘misandy’. Man oh man, do you have trouble with that word!!
Though perhaps you are just suffering from the same disease as … Nigel ! FFS, yes?
Et maintenant, bon soir chéri.
@marie
A more unusual usage of French by French from an English translation perspective: “Normalment, Je me couche”
Ahaha, anormalement drôle. Google will get phrases translated correctly “aux calendes grecques” ;)
Meanwhile, that was a quick fix. Εύγε.
Nuance. Commenters. The Poster.
Nuance.
Missed.
@Marie
The source of that was a French friend who was pretty good in English, but she used the word “normally” in English in places where one would use “normalment” in French. If you think about it, there can be some funny moments.
“What are you doing?”
“Well, normally, I’m going out with my friends.”
Etc.
Jscott, caught :)
I dunno if Evil-yn and Melissa are religious or not but if they’re looking for some more labels to throw at you in their oppression Olympics, how about #Misotheist?
Richard, evidently “Normalement, je me couche” is exactly what I should have used! Since in that context, as your friend uses it, it means “assuming all goes well, then I’m going to bed” or “if nothing else comes up, then I’m going to bed” – and look, I’m still awake. But not for long. Really. Normally, I’m passing out now ;)
@Marie
yes, you have it. its one of those few words that are the same but used in entirely different contexts so it can be just a little funny.
“Generally speaking, men use OkCupid ‘cos they can’t get a girlfriend IRL, but women use OkCupid to widen their social network. The female population on OkCupid approximates social norms.”
False. And there’s published research.
It’s mainstream and has been for sometime. In fact, I can’t think of a single person Bea & I know who is not or has not used online dating. Saves a lot of time in terms of finding someone with a chance of decent compatibility.
Well fuck me sideways! This whole post was a joke. Humour doesn’t work well on the Internet.
Back on proper computer, so I can copy & paste. :-D
Richard Nikoley said…
“Nigel, let me tell you what you humorlessly didn’t think about, before I tell you what I did think about but didn’t bother with and because you’re humorless it all goes over your Karaoke singing head.”
I thought that sarcasm meant “mocking”. I see that sarcasm is marked by “mocking with irony”. It’s confusing, as sarcasm also means “ridicule”, which involves no irony.
“You didn’t think about 2–count ‘em–2 sarcasm tags. That means I’m not being rigorous, such as in my brain-gut post of yesterday for contrast. That means someone with an ounce of humor ought to spend some of it here when called for.”
See above. Maybe next time, start a post with: “Warning: This post may contain ironic mocking.”
“…and yea, duh, it’s a self selected population and not randomly selected. Or, so called. If the population is large enough, it’s going to likely approximate social norms anyway.”
No it’s not. A large population of train-spotters is still a bunch of dorks! ;-)
Generally speaking, men use OkCupid ‘cos they can’t get a girlfriend IRL, but women use OkCupid to widen their social network. The female population on OkCupid approximates social norms.
“And if you think study subjects for RCTs aren’t often scrutinized and screened for likelihood of getting an expected result, then you sing too much Karaoke.”
And if you think that I don’t already know that, then you fly too much hang-gliding.
Richard – No problem. Just thought you might show the guy who also wrote “Dear God” a little more love.
Thanks for the Nouvelle Vague clarification. Spent some time with them on the Youtubez last night. Reminded me of the Jose Feliciano cover of Light My Fire and Seu Jorge’s Bowie covers. Some of Nouvelle Vague’s music really worked for me (Bela Lugosi’s Dead, The Killing Moon, Ever Fallen in Love, Master and Servant) others (So Lonely, Blue Monday, Love Will Tear Us Apart) less. Gotta give them credit for daring something new. Like Joseph wrote any musicians can cover those songs straight (though to me no one can ever do Love Will Tear Us Apart like the original). It takes some talent and vision to breathe a new and different life into those songs. Thanks for providing an evening’s entertainment. Time well spent.
Nice. I must confess, though, I worried it would be the Orleans song. That was just what I needed after breaking myself in the Blue Ridge today. Know what they could do a killer cover of – There Is a Light That Never Goes Out.
“They gathered their data using a number of standardized questionnaires and psychological measures.”
I wonder how those compare with Food Frequency Questionnaires in terms of accuracy? Also, youtube.com/watch?v=CZR2k5c_198 O.K, not everybody.
I’ve used OkCupid and PoF. OkCupid is better than PoF in terms of having fewer weirdos.
Eddie:
Here, let’s use the permalink.
FYI, I had unbanned him after he posted that bit on CarbsaneR and had a few email exchanges with him. I had known about Mark’s email. Apparently he was using his comment at Carole’s to to curry favor so he could pull that stunt.
I have no only banned him again, but permanently deleted every single of the roughly 60 comments he ever posted here, going back over a year. Every one. I also expunged his name from the three posts that mentioned it. You will never see him in another comment here, ever, unless he sock puppets—but I’m sure I’ll detect that soon enough.
Eddie Mitchell said…
“Nigel you’re a humourless nerk, this might give you a laugh.
”
Ha-ha! Very inventive. Sadly, a lack of carbohydrates (or is it an excess of Rioja?) seems to have rendered you so mentally feeble that you are incapable of correctly inserting hyperlinks. Luckily, Richard has helped you out. Try eating lots of potatoes and/or drinking lots of milk to replenish your brain glycogen* ;-)
*Or lay off the Rioja.
@marie,
Cancer Nutrition & Survival (by Hickey & Roberts)
is the best book on cancer i have read; they’re not low carb per se but did discuss glucose restriction, fasting, D3, K, C & a slew of others.
(oh, LDN may help, provided that you can find a physician to give a prescription)
(books by ACS are total waste of $ & tree branches)
here’s another site of a young man who had colon cancer @ (gasp) 20’s. he has some interesting information.
chrisbeatcancer.com/
Paul Jaminet wrote a nice series on cancer; Lucas Tafar also has some discussion.
like i said, i believe that fasting + KD) is even more powerful.
stay well,
smbc-comics.com/ I just get the feeling you’ll fucking love this. That is of course assuming you haven’t seen it today already. Well, kettlebell longcycle is done. Piss taken I’m off to crush my run.
P.S. it not a commentary on anyone in particular, just one that seems like it’ll elicit some laughter
Nigel Kinbrum said.
“Well fuck me sideways! This whole post was a joke. Humour doesn’t work well on the Internet.”
Nigel you’re a humourless nerk, this might give you a laugh.
thelowcarbdiabetic.blogspot.co.uk/
Eddie, Nigel, Richard,
Boys, boys! Why must you always be measuring each other’s…humor?
Tiens, humor about the internet/computers that anyone can agree on :) : youtube.com/watch?v=k6C_HjWr3Nk
Favorite bits at ~3:15, 4:00, 6:10….oh what the heck it’s only 7 minutes, enjoy the whole thing, it’s Sunday!
And Richard, note the computer is a Mac ;)
Grant C, the basic premise is backwards, backwards I tell ya!
See Bill Burr’s take on proportion of evil online users : youtube.com/watch?v=1PbP7oVHNyw
Sean, thanks for reminding me of this comedian, you’re always so…genuine, as Dr.CG would say ;)
Great post.
Co-evolution, women using men , men using women , both unconsciously shaping the other.
Do you want to live in the dynamic world of nature , or the homogeneous feminist zoo world?
Well, I guess none of Eddie, Nigel or Richard have found Charles “Crashing Bore” Glashow’s “printer on/off switch”.
But, but, (nudge-nudge, wink-wink) my OTHER name is Jeff-Jeff born on jeff/jeff/jeff-jeff-jeff-jeff and for a small fee I’ll tell you all about it.
(Ignore the Bore, it’s far simpler.)
Derrrrr no Marie! My thing! My thing is the thinga muh thing that proves me immaculate lol. Great clip Thanx!
LeonRover, grazie, I may now better enjoy the commedia dell’arte :D
Heh, for a ‘man of the world’ : youtube.com/watch?v=ona-RhLfRfc
Grant C, oh then, you must be one of the 13%…and on holy Sunday, no less ;)
Fuck! I just spit my coconut milk and jade butter cocktail all over the counter. There was like 10 bucks worth of “butter” in that.
My sense of dominion demands compensation!
Grant, well then, here you go, dominion compensation, with interest (for the lost butter, of course) : youtube.com/watch?v=DtcSYPjJbgg
heh, join the club, that’s a popular video around here :D
Damn, looks like the links didn’t work:
Podcast:
Cancer articles:
Sorry about that.
Hi Marie
I found this video presentation which talks about cancer and the roll of different food groups. It’s a very interesting presentation and for me gets going 17 minutes in. The mind blower for me is near the end when the presenter asks the audience of the food groups which food group promotes cancer. The overeating of fat has no impact on causing cancer. Carbs bring on a dramatic rise and protein somewhere in between. I think everyone will be interested in the video linked below.
Other interesting and encouraging links re cancer and carbohydrate restriction.
nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/4/1/5
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1819381/
nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/7/1/7
I intend to contact Dr. Jay Wortman a friend who has helped in the past. He is a very busy man but goes out of his way to help, he is a lowcarb expert and has regular contact with other lowcarb specialists. He also probably has access to papers and information un-available to the layman. I will come back to you if I can get more useful info.
Keep your chin up, and all the best.
Eddie
No blog on the history of the Internet has had Castle Anthrax linked up in comment threads as many times as this one.
Eddie, idiots like you give low-carbing a bad name!
Richard, but of course, the Castle Anthrax popularity is a Towering achievement.
But look, the Sole-man must have hit the all time record, it took what, all of Two comments for him to earn it? Heh, maybe there’s something to that idea of being nimbler in bare feet.
I do a lot of my running barefoot from spring to fall, but chicken-out at the thought of frostbite up here in the north country.
Grant,
since my closest relatives are in Toronto and I’m there frequently, I know the weather is nearly identical to Buffalo/Rochester, so just out of curiosity, how does it work in the winter? That looks like snow in one picture, yes?
Nigel
I wanted a link to the blog, not to the cartoon winding you up. I know how to place a hyperlink. As for carbs, even you must know there is no such thing as an essential carb.
“There are three kinds of foods–fats, proteins, and carbohydrates. All of these provide calories. But the carbohydrates provide calories and nothing else. They have none of the essential elements to build up or to repair the tissues of the body. A man, given carbohydrates alone, however liberally, would starve to death on calories. The body must have proteins and animal fats. It has no need for carbohydrates, and, given the two essential foodstuffs, it can get all the calories it needs from them.”
Sir Heneage Ogilvie, former vice president of the Royal College of Surgeons, England.
Richard
Thank you for allowing me to link to our humble blog.
Hey Marie. Exposure makes it work. Sole of the foot is supposed to have a lot of blood flow as it acts as a sense organ. If you expose it and reactivate the blood pump action of the lower leg some pretty incredible stuff happens
@Eddie: And you call me a humourless nerk? Oh, the irony! :-D
@Richard: Please use /irony tags in future, to avoid confusion. Sarcasm can be ironic or non-ironic. Isn’t it ironic, don’t ya think?
@Eddie: Your cartoon is lampooning me. It’s not winding me up, as I consider your writings worthless.
Grant, thanks.
That actually made some sense to me right away and gives me the tip to start exploring for a physiological response of moving feet/legs to cold and pressure. I confess all I had up to now was the whole-body but very wooooo explanation of Wim Hoff and the expected influence on his autonomic nervous system!
Nigel
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to try and educate you and promote my lowcarb cause.
“The low-fat, high-carbohydrate diet, promulgated vigorously by the National Cholesterol Education Programe, National Institutes of Health and American Heart Association since the Lipid Research Clinics-Primary Prevention Program in 1984, and earlier by the US Department of Agriculture food pyramid, may well have played an unintended role in the current epidemics of obesity, lipid abnormalities, type 2 diabetes and metabolic syndromes.
This diet can no longer be defended by appeal to the authority of prestigious medical organisations or by rejecting clinical experience and a growing medical literature suggesting that the much-maligned low-carbohydrate, high-protein diet may have a salutary effect on the epidemics in question.”
Sylvan Weinberg, former president of the American College of Cardiology.
Eddie, I know your site is about LC and Diabetes, but do you happen to have any favorite links or compilations regarding either LC or ketogenic diets and Cancer?
My dad’s on round two of chemotherapy after 3 operations. Now with his main doctor’s support, I’ve been coaching him on the day-to-day food selections and tricks to ‘starve’ the unbridled cells division of circulating glucose. He’s responded very well and finds it easy and it seems to help the nausea, though he lost more weight than previously – but that’s confounded by the fact that this round is harsher. Meanwhile, I’ve been collecting research results and updates from all sources I can find.
Hi Marie
I am sorry your Father is ill and obviously a very worrying time for you and your family. I have never really looked into the effects of a ketogenic diet and the treatment of cancer. This link may be of some help and comfort. I am sure you are aware for most people a KD needs to be below 50 carbs per day. Optimal is a round 30 I would say, which will still leave room for some non starchy vegetables and salad items. Of course with a huge reduction in carbs, you are left with fats and proteins. I would major on good quality fats such as butter, double cream, avocado etc. In broad terms, carbohydrates have a large impact on blood glucose levels, protein much less, and fats have little if any effect.
It’s 3 am in the UK but I will contact some people in the morning and see if I can get some more information and come back to you.
The very best to you and yours.
Eddie
nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/8/1/75
Hi Nigel
You’re very clever, well, relatively. Here’s another lesson in your journey of dietary enlightenment.
A meta-analysis published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, pooled together data from 21 unique studies that included almost 350,000 people, about 11,000 of whom developed cardiovascular disease (CVD), tracked for an average of 14 years, and concluded that there is no relationship between the intake of saturated fat and the incidence of heart disease or stroke.
Conclusions: A meta-analysis of prospective epidemiologic studies showed that there is no significant evidence for concluding that dietary saturated fat is associated with an increased risk of CHD or CVD. More data are needed to elucidate whether CVD risks are likely to be influenced by the specific nutrients used to replace saturated fat.
Thank you luv, that’s very kind, I didn’t expect you to even see this ’till morning!
I’ve been on a grain-free mediterranean diet myself since childhood, and additionally learned a lot about the processes involved in LC since I moved to academia (the biochemists are down the hall from me, great folks) and because my whole family expects me to evaluate any research for them related to health matters (though its not my field; physical chemistry and physics are mine).
Then there’s the explosion in blogs – meh, that can be good and bad ;) I liked yours for the rational explanations and it’s organization, imo.
But I’m a newbie with ketogen, have the basic theoretical aspects and know how to get there (have a blood glucose meter and keto-stix that I used earlier myself to try the effects of different food stuffs before recommending to dad). Very strict regiment, only veg he’s eating at the moment are leafy greens, avocado and buttery cauliflower. Fats are coconut oil, grass fed butter and of course olive oil (he’s in Greece). The strategy is to make-up the calorie deficit with fats, not proteins. However, I have very little on recent developments or results, especially for cancer. Neither do my American biochem friends and none of the doctors, while in Europe people seem more familiar with this.
PS> that link is exactly the kind of thing I’m looking for, Thank you!
Hey, Eddiepoo! My blog post on Cholesterol & CHD was derived from an article I wrote back in 2005. See Everything You Wanted To Know About Cholesterol & Coronary Heart Disease By Nigel Kinbrum aka MuscleTalk member nigeepoo
Marie, sorry to hear about your father.
I hope I do these embedded links right – if I don’t, I hope Richard can fix them for me.
There is an oncologist called Dr Colin Champ who has been interviewed by Jimmy Moore on Ask The Low Carb Experts about a Ketogenic Diet and Cancer:
Link to podcast
He also has a blog called Caveman Doctor with a section on Cancer:
Link to cancer articles
Best wishes,
Indy
Dr.CG, thank you very much. That book looks like something I can sink my teeth into and I’ll be following up on the other pointers, sounds like I can get more of a synopsis from some. Fasting would do the same thing plus stimulate autophagy and a host of hormonal changes so he does want to try it, once the weight is up again.
Indy, great resources and that caveman doc has some clear writing that my dad himself can easily absorb and references everything beautifully, lots of articles to hunt down. Thank you so much.
All, at this rate I’ll be easily compiling a library of more current relevant info without having to slowly wade through broad SciFinder key-word searches or pubmed. Thank you!! We’re rather lucky that his doctor had a positive impression from earlier German work and is quite willing to look at anything I put in front of him, so capitalizing on that quickly ;)
Marie
I have posted on this thread but my post is awaiting moderation, maybe too many links, maybe Richard has but me on probation. I have placed the guts of the post on our blog.
Kind regards Eddie
Eddie, thank you. Going there now. Maybe when Richard gets out of the mini-honeymoon Bea’s return must have caused, he’ll catch up with things ;)
@ Marie
Sorry to hear about that. Since he’s doing chemo, have you looked into the research concerning fasting beforehand?
freetheanimal.com/2008/04/counterintuitiv.html
Thanks Richard I owe you.
Eddie
Eddie Mitchell // Apr 7, 2013 at 18:27
“Nigel
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to try and educate you and promote my lowcarb cause.
“Lots of words”
Sylvan Weinberg, former president of the American College of Cardiology.”
You’re welcome. I already support low-carb & keto diets, where appropriate.
Your reply was an argument from authority.
@marie: What sort of cancer does your dad have?
“I wonder how those compare with Food Frequency Questionnaires in terms of accuracy?”
No comparison. Have you used an online dating service is a yes/no question. Would you consider using one? Y/N. What is your gender? M/F. What is your education level? What is your income? Etc. etc.
Nothing like a food questionnaire.
Richard Nikoley said…
“No comparison. Have you used an online dating service is a yes/no question. Would you consider using one? Y/N. What is your gender? M/F. What is your education level? What is your income? Etc. etc. Nothing like a food questionnaire.”
Psychological assessment questionnaires ask lots of questions, including ones on how you react to or feel about certain situations. I’ve done one. There were some questions that I couldn’t answer, so I answered randomly.
Eddie Mitchell said…
“http://www.ajcn.org/content/early/2010/01/13/ajcn.2009.27725.abstract”
You should get a job teaching grannies how to suck eggs. :-D
I don’t diss sat fats on my blog.
What does that study have to do with LC diets?
@marie,
(also thanks Eddie & Indy)
i hope you’re not having information overload.
i do not recommend Peskin’s book. (he did have some interesting writing re. Warburg effect at the first few chapters then moves on to sell his products)
more on O3
perfecthealthdiet.com/2011/04/omega-3-fats-angiogenesis-and-cancer-part-i/
fructose is also bad
you probably know this: bone broth heals
stay healthy,
Nigel
Please forgive me, in my comments to you, I had wrongly assumed you had a rudimentary grasp of human metabolism. Your question “What does that study have to do with LC diets?” illustrates your total ignorance of the fundamentals.
When carbohydrates are reduced to around 10% of a typical diet they have to be replaced. If I could afford it, I would roll the dice and go for lobsters, scallops and fillet steak. Back in the real world, I have replaced the carbs with saturated fats. Thus, it is very important to me, the consumption of extra saturated fats, will not be a one way ticket to the knackers yard. Capisce !
Raising another glass of Rioja to your good health.
The question was whether or not the people predominately using them represent a reasonable slice of average people. The answer is yes. Easy to determine with a simple questionnaire, unless one is a moron, or a Nigel Kinbrum.
@geoff
Another thing to check out, this guy James Dalby on YouTube. Does lots of covers but also a pretty awesome singer songwriter.
youtube.com/user/jamesdalbyacoustic?feature=watch
Here’s my hypothesis regarding the disparity.
Men do and are expected to do the most initiation of contact. I’m not going to offer any theories, but that’s just the way it is.
Given that, the women on the more attractive end of the spectrum are probably sending out few if any initial contact messages, while less attractive women will be more likely to send out initial contact messages. I would guess that less attractive women would be more likely to message men in that they think are more their “league” resulting in the messaging distribution seen.
Without men taking the initiative more often, I suspect that the female messaging distribution would look more like male one.
Eddie Mitchell said…
“When carbohydrates are reduced to around 10% of a typical diet they have to be replaced. If I could afford it, I would roll the dice and go for lobsters, scallops and fillet steak. Back in the real world, I have replaced the carbs with saturated fats. Thus, it is very important to me, the consumption of extra saturated fats, will not be a one way ticket to the knackers yard. Capisce !”
Don’t you like pork belly strips? I love ’em. Why is it so important for you to replace carbs with saturated fats rather than, say, monounsaturated fats?
“Raising another glass of Rioja to your good health.”
You didn’t answer my question about alcohol inhibiting GNG (gluconeogenesis, in case you’ve forgotten). LC’ers rely on hepatic & renal glucose production to produce glucose for the brain & red blood cells. Alcohol inhibits hepatic glucose production (dunno about renal). That probably explains your mental state.
Richard Nikoley said…
“The question was whether or not the people predominately using them represent a reasonable slice of average people. The answer is yes. Easy to determine with a simple questionnaire, unless one is a moron, or a Nigel Kinbrum.”
Simple questionnaire? Are you kidding? You didn’t use a /irony tag.
Number of questions to fill out on eHarmony survey: 400.
More diversions. The article referenced was a published study.
“The researchers (Kim et al., 2009) surveyed 3,345 people in the U.S., of which 1,588 (47.5 %) were men and 1,757 (52.5 %) were women. Ages ranged from 19 to 89 with a mean of 48 years old. They gathered their data using a number of standardized questionnaires and psychological measures.”
Says nothing about using eHamony’s questionnaire for members or any other dating service’s. It says THEY surveyed.
Hi Nigel
I am fully aware alcohol inhibits glucogenosis, not that I would recommend diabetics use alcohol to lower BG numbers. Carbs will come back to bite you in the end, it’s just a matter of time. Alcohol has the temporary effect of paralysing the liver, as it sees alcohol as poison, and prioritizes. The body only requires a very small amount of glucose, most organs, including the heart work very well on ketones. The brain requires a small amount of glucose as does the eye. All of course can come from the conversion of protein.
As for my mental state, whatever may befall me, I will always be able to deal with the likes of you.
Now, while you are over here, I would like to continue with your dietary edification. Tonight’s topic is cholesterol and the great myths. From my friend Dr. Malcolm Kendrick and the fact there is no correlation of total cholesterol numbers and heart disease.
youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=i8SSCNaaDcE
Richard, thank you, I now remember that post of yours is one of the first that got me interested in Fasting. Bears rereading. I sometimes suspect I’m reaching that an age where one has forgotten more than they currently know?! Sigh.
Dr.CG : I caught the new info for me among the slew of other new comments, thank you again!
Eddie, wow, that’s a library right there, thank you again!
Nigel, thanks for the cancer files on your blog and the hat tip today, ahaha!
I’ve no idea about the persnickety arguments on the other subjects here, it sounds to me like you all agree on the fundamentals in nutrition or even statistics…..but that right there is probably another difference between the boys and the girls. Heh, vive la différence! :)
Thanks again to everyone for helping out with great info for my dad for ketogenic diet or fasting + cancer. I much appreciate it.
@Richard: For a joke post, shit’s sure getting serious! As marie reminds us, men are different from women. Can we please agree on that and move the fuck on?
@Eddie: Once again, you really should take up a post as teacher at an egg-sucking school for grannies. I wrote about cholesterol & CHD years ago on my blog.
As you are so concerned with value-for-money, why are you converting 50% of expensive protein into glucose? Why not, as Paul Jaminet suggests, eat 100g of safe carbs/day and save the protein for something useful? See How eating sugar & starch can lower your insulin needs.
P.S. It’s gluconeogenesis.
P.P.S. Why don’t you eat pork belly strips? They’re fatty and as cheap as….very cheap things.
@marie,
(sorry me again)
found an n=1 story on Chris beat cancer of a woman on KD for breast cancer
regards,
Evelyn and the other one are more dangerous to this community than people realise. What you did Richard was a great service but I fear that the tumour of feminism is here. Basically a clear pattern is followed whether intentionally or not when feminism infects a community
.
1. Start claiming there is a bias towards men, and that woman are underrepresented.
2. Claim that woman in the movement are been sexually harrassed and demand zero tolerance policies.
3. When some men call BS on this feminists claim they are been ‘attacked’ for voicing their opinion and how this is a perfect example of misogyny.
4. End result – most woman will side with the feminists and a lot of the males will too because they will want to instinctively protect the poor innocent victim ( a certain person did this, and I won’t mention any names but I think he likes apples). And through the zero tolerance, shaming, and calls of sexism anyone who disagrees is either silenced or run out of the community.
This has happened in both the atheist and tech communities (look at elevatorgate, and donglegate or check links I have provided below). They made ludicrous claims completely based far out of reality and even Richard Dawkins got quite angry. Evelyn shows these classic delusional signs. Her blog states she has received death threats etc. I don’t buy any of it for one fucking second. But she is trouble, as feminism always is when it tries to steer a community or movement away from it’s original intentions.
Here are some links if you want to inform yourself and there definitely worth watching:
Atheist community (elevatorgate)
youtube.com/watch?v=eBPkEHMd8Uc
Tech community (donglegate)
youtube.com/watch?v=6jhGRuSvWOc
This is also happening in science. I have talked with an academic in feminism/sociology and she undertakes quantitative research, which is quite rare for feminists. Why is it rare, because it means you have to actually accept your observations, and don’t get to push an agenda and find qualitative ‘evidence’ to back that up. She said she has been the victim of verbal attacks geared towards silencing her simply because her results don’t tow the party line.
It’s fucking bullshit. These types of feminists (both woman and men) need to be challenged.
Dr. Curmudgeonly Unobtrusive, thank you again, always interested :)
Dan, No. Please consider:
Challenging gives a platform and it’s exactly what these delusional, self-important extremists relish.
Loud extreme minorities exist everywhere and the only thing to do is ignore them, they end-up talking to themselves/preaching to the choir.
I don’t see how this is the threat you perceive, except among those ‘chattering classes’ who need things to chatter about. The majority of people work for a living, with each other.
Any fault at any ‘community’ or conference that this affects lies with those organizers who gave them any credence and instituted those rules.
Natural majority dynamics play out in the end, because one simply goes to those conferences where this type of dictatorial behavior is Not implemented.
It is a whole other story if a minority gathers power Violently (physically so is always the only way that actually succeeds) or by influencing the beliefs of a voting majority, so that they institute Universal rules and laws for Everyone.
If you see that coming then yeah, fight the good fight, by all means.
However, given what a tiny percentage of women, let alone men, pays any attention to the ultra-pc dictatorial type of feminist talk that you indicate, exactly because it is self-evidently dictatorial, I just wouldn’t give it any more attention than it already undeservedly gathers.
I go read and write where I please. So do most people. That’s the most effective ‘challenge’. Voluntarily ‘vote’ with your feet.
IMHO ;)
I would have agreed with you Marie but these people have already succeeded in tearing those communities apart and getting people fired. Ignoring them hasn’t worked, because they know how to play the game. I may choose to ignore them but if everyone around me is going batshit crazy then things get out of hand. I know for a fact they are undermining a lot of science that is coming out. They are censoring free speech. These are actually pretty major things. And I think people like Evelyn can be a big problem.
Dan, I think our difference is in the perception “if everyone around me is going batshit crazy”.
The only places I’ve seen that happen and where it has a real-world effect on livelihoods is exactly in the smaller liberal-arts centered environments of your links. I really feel for those people in liberal-arts areas who I know do Often get damaged by all kinds of -isms that sweep through.
That is not the type of environment here though, there’s a strongly independent-minded and evidence-based crowd in the paleo-sphere. Don’t believe me? Gather some evidence. Go on over to the site-meters of some of the sites embroiled in this and see.
Meanwhile, keep in mind that the more airing the noise gets, the more traffic the aggressive pc people get too – that is their main source at some point, eh? If no one plays the game of attacking them, that they thrive on, what can they do? It’s a self-quenching system.
What is your fear – specifics now, how would this ‘game’ have an effect in This environment of independent bloggers? I’m not saying I preclude that it can, I just haven’t seen up to now how it can, given the environment we’re talking about. Then what are you suggesting anyone do about it? Other than keep reading them? Buying their books? Do you think anyone can stop Commercial publishers from publishing popular authors?
On another note, such a very interesting idea for your new blog! Good luck with your effort :)
The links I sent were for the skeptic society and atheist conference and also the Pycon conference. Both of these would be significantly large conferences, much larger than anything the paleo community could do. Richard Dawkins himself was involved in the atheist debuckle and surly he is a bigger name than anyone in the paleo community. Not to mention this is a conference full of skeptics and atheists who are well known for independent thought and using reason and logic based arguments, far more than paleo people do.
Pycon is the conference for the programme Python which is a major programme. The whole web went crazy when the scandal broke out, and it even resulted in cyber attacks against her company. The universities I work for, and the academic I mention, are both good research universities and certainly not liberal arts colleges. So I really don’t think that this problem can just be ignored and is localised or fringe. The problem is how could these guys remain silent when they are publicly been accused of as misogynist and the feminists are demanding they get fired, which they did. Because the company was scared of any backlash.
One of the common methods of these feminists to play the victim card and use that to get other people to blacklist the problem people who don’t agree with them. It’s incredibly powerful argument because they will try to claim that the person in question is been sexist to them, trying to shut down their opinion because they are a woman. But in reality they are trying to shut down everyone else. Now from what Richard was saying Evelyn has already started down that track trying to turn well known bloggers against Richard in order to silence and isolate him. I find this outrageous but its a common tactic. I don’t know what we can do but the more people are conscious that this tactic has been repeated over and over amongst feminists, then maybe they won’t fall for it and that will neutralise the threat somewhat.
I think that you have used a poor scale for measuring misogyny and misandry. Keeping someone around for a few years to produce a few children does not speak for or against sexism. If a man were to marry a woman, have a few kids, then divorce her, prevent her from ever seeing her children and extract 90 percent of all her future earnings, and if society said that was a good thing, that would be misogyny. When it’s done to men and society calls it a good thing, that is misandry.
To compare it to your racism example, someone keeping a few blacks around as slaves because he wants certain work done is still racist. Keeping men around only for utility value and deciding that their wants and interests don’t matter for anything is still sexist.
Dan, we agree on what they are trying to do, just not on when and where it’s useful to react, versus when it’s useful to ignore as audience/readers and btw, in so, doing prevent escalation or more publicity for this miasma.
Dan said
“Now from what Richard was saying Evelyn has already started down that track trying to turn well known bloggers against Richard in order to silence and isolate him. I find this outrageous but its a common tactic.”
With respect Dan, I think most straight thinking people realise the Evelyn’s of this world are no more than a tee shirt, yesterdays papers wrapped around fish and chips. When someone waffles on about the science of weight loss for years, and can’t get below morbidly obese, jeez it’s a joke. She slags off Jimmy Moore, who puts up photographs honestly showing his success and failure re his weight loss journey, while she shows a tightly cropped, out of focus image of a podgy faced weight loss failure.
The day the Evie’s of this world can take down the likes of Gary Taubes, Jimmy Moore, Robb Wolf et al and the owner of this blog, will be the day hell freezes over. I agree Evie and her crew make a lot of noise, but that’s all it is, noise. If she and the Nigel’s and Charlie’s can take down the aforementioned good guys, they deserve to be relegated, but it ain’t gonna happen. As I said at the start of this post, straight thinking people see through the bull shit, let Evie keep providing a safe haven for the nutters and giving us a laugh.
Eddie Mitchell said…
“When someone waffles on about the science of weight loss for years, and can’t get below morbidly obese, jeez it’s a joke.”
You’re really good at logical fallacies, Eddie. That’s argumentum ad hominem and also incorrect. Evelyn had many pictures on her site, but they are no longer there. I’m just stating facts, something that you confuse with arse-kissing.
Keep making a complete and utter prat of yourself!
No-one is “taking down” anyone, you paranoid weirdo. You’re so defensive, that any criticism of the science behind LC’ing is taken as a personal attack. I wonder why that is? Here’s a clue.
The only possible musical response to the question OkCupid? is:
Neil’s (for Andras) youtube.com/watch?v=4-VjuXsKO9E
or
Wanda’s (for Gyni)
Why are people getting so butt-hurt over what Evelyn says? People with far more influence than her have strongly criticised Taubes, Lustig, the Paleo Diet etc.
1) Lyle McDonald (who wrote the definitive guide to Ketogenic Diets).
2) Alan Aragon.
3) Jamie Hale.
Why don’t you take it up with them? Good luck with that.
Morning, Eddie! I see that you’ve just arrived on here. What’s the weather like in Watford?
“Why are people getting so butt-hurt over what Evelyn says? People with far more influence than her have strongly criticised Taubes, Lustig, the Paleo Diet etc.”
Nigeepoo the big diference is Mcdonald, Aragon and Hale unlike your beloved Evie did not turn into serial stalkers.
I heard Evie was being referred to as a Sad Sociopath I think that’s a very fitting description of her.
Hi Nigel
How are you today, well I trust. Now, where was I? Ah yes, let’s continue with your education. Your question, “Why not, as Paul Jaminet suggests, eat 100g of safe carbs/day and save the protein for something useful?”. A typical type two diabetic using diet and exercise for diabetes control, would not hold non diabetic BG numbers on a hundred grams of carbs per day, between thirty and fifty is the norm.
I don’t suppose you are aware, but most type two diabetes drugs are either useless, or dangerous, or both. Avandia, Actos and other diabetes meds have been banned (for killing people) in many countries over the last few years. Other type two meds carry black box cancer warnings. Drugs such as Gliclazide are known pancreas destroyers. See where this is going Nigel, lowcarbing for most type 2 diabetics is the only safe option. There is injected insulin of course, but insulin is not a get out of jail free card. Insulin leaves a type two open to hypo’s, loss of driving license, increased costs of motor and life insurance, and in many countries, considerable life long expense.
Even you Nigel must be getting the big picture now. Lowcarbing not only brings all those advantages to a type two diabetic, it also brings many advantages to a type one diabetic. The less the carbs, the less the insulin, the less the insulin, the better and more predictable control. It’s what one of the worlds leading blood glucose control experts calls “The Power Of Small Numbers” His name is Dr. Richard Bernstein. Check him out Nigel he can teach you a great deal.
Anyway, I must fly, my wine merchant has got his hands on a couple of cases of particularly good Barolo, wouldn’t want to lose them. Talk again soon.
In 2003, I was nearly diagnosed as type 2 diabetic, with a fasting glucose of 6.8mmol/L.
In 2008, I passed an OGTT (75g glucose) with flying colours (2 hours post-load BG = 3.7mmol/L), using supplementation and walking. I can now eat carbs without becoming drowsy.
You, on the other hand, are a carb-cripple and will probably remain so.
“I don’t suppose you are aware…” I am aware, actually. I read Jenny Ruhl’s blog. It’s in my blog list.
“Even you Nigel must be getting the big picture now.” I got the big picture years ago.
“It’s what one of the worlds leading blood glucose control experts calls “The Power Of Small Numbers” His name is Dr. Richard Bernstein. Check him out Nigel he can teach you a great deal.”
Once again, I’m way ahead of you, Eddie. See The problem with Diabetes.
It must really suck being as dim a bulb as you. Enjoy your Barolo!
Equilibrium said…
“Nigeepoo the big diference is Mcdonald, Aragon and Hale unlike your beloved Evie did not turn into serial stalkers.”
Beg pardon? Evelyn (she’s not my beloved) hasn’t stalked anybody. She has been sarcastic. She doesn’t have a monopoly on sarcasm, however!
“I heard Evie was being referred to as a Sad Sociopath I think that’s a very fitting description of her.”
Was it Carole Sampson who called her that, by any chance? If so, Pot. Kettle. Black. :-D
Here’s another Paleo Diet critique. Is It Healthier To Eat Like A Caveman?
Better get writing…
“Why are people getting so butt-hurt over what Evelyn says? People with far more influence than her have strongly criticised Taubes, Lustig, the Paleo Diet etc.”
This just proves my point. This guy is white knighting, he is trying to save the damsel in distress because she is playing the victim card. What has poor little feminist x done wrong, you big mean misogynist bullies are just trying to bring woman down even further. So now I am going to try to silence you with meaningless propoganda.
What is different about what Evelyn does and what other people do is they use science or rational arguments against his theories on weight loss. Evelyn calls them sexist, and attacks their character. Furthermore, she tries to get other people to silence or ignore them when they tell her she is wrong. How could this not be any different, and why can’t paleo stay a forum for that rather than sexist rhetoric.
Marie and Eddie, I appreciate your viewpoints and hope you are right. Still better to be forearmed than forewarned right? And I guess my only other thing is why shouldn’t we rally around those men and women who are been attacked. Certainly Evelyn is tryiing to rally people to her cause. Should people like Richard just have to stand alone and weather the storm. The biggest name in paleo was already tut tutting him on twitter showing that her strategy was working. She was even replying in the twitter comments. I just want to let Richard know that I support him 100% and if he needs any help he has only needs to ask.
I’m not trying to save anyone. I’m just bemused at the vast amount of energy expended against someone who’s not in a position of influence.
Meanwhile, people who are in positions of influence metaphorically shit on the Paleo diet.
Nigel
I like you Nigel, it’s been awhile since someone like you, gave me the opportunity to promote the lowcarb cause, with Richard’s forbearance of course, as our dialogue has been off topic. So, you refer to me as a “carb-cripple” that is true, I am extremely sensitive to sugar and starch, as are many other carb cripples I know. On the other hand, we are not sugar and starch addicted, so we find lowcarbing very easy to keep to, which dispels that old myth about lowcarbers can’t keep with the lifestyle. Our little team at the lowcarb diabetic, have over fifty years of lowcarbing under our belts, and have never felt better.
Non diabetic blood glucose numbers, safe blood pressure, great lipid counts, all with kidney GFR >90. No sign of diabetic complications whatsoever, and the great thing about lowcarbing, it’s free of charge. I appreciate not everyone can stick with lowcarbing. Evelyn Kocur is a classic example. She stated on the Jimmy Moore podcast she had lost a huge amount of weight, then dumped lowcarb and returned to obesity.
At the end of the day, a person needs some self discipline, the sort of self discipline I maintain when I respond to you. Clearly self discipline is a quality you do not possess, that does not matter. I am more than happy to take your petty taunts and ridicule, and I shall tell you why. There is a chance, a small chance, someone may read my posts here and learn something to their advantage. Maybe a newly diagnosed diabetic, maybe a person who has struggled to control their weight or diabetes for years, that’s what this is all about. That is my cause, that is my mission, what is your cause Nigel ? What is your mission ?
O.K. Eddie. I apologise for being horrible to you, but if you read my blog, you’ll see that I reflect insults back at the sender. You insulted me, so I insulted you back. Simples!
Show me a little civility and I’ll show you some in return. Deal?
To me Nigel criticism is a great thing. I work in academia and am used to people challenging my viewpoints, and again i LIKE that. But I want people to challenge others viewpoints with logic and evidence. When people bring up this feminist fucking bullshit propoganda they are trying to change the discussion. They are not talking about the science behind the diet are they? She says she doesn’t feel safe, and has received death threats, this is no different than Rebecca Watson in the atheist movement which claimed she couldn’t walk around conferences by herself for fear of her life. This. is. delusional. And if anyone disagrees with their stupid fucking patriachy theory the ensuing Robb Wolf/Richard Nikoley debacle begins. I’m just really fucking over it. How is this remotely the same as you criticsing my stance on low carb? It’s not.
Now for Eddie. I think Nigel has a point. I have gone on paleo and I stayed overweight. I feel no different when I eat more carbs. If anything paleo messed me up more! To say I wasn’t doing it right is a somewhat religious argument because I can never know what is right or wrong. But the end result is it didn’t work for me. In the end I think eating lots of vegetables and good real food (i.e unprocessed, nutrient dense) is key and this is mostly paleo. But if I want some bread to have that all on, I do it.
@Dan
I’ll just say that Sisson, Wolf & I are friends in private. Trust me. What’s going on in public with regard to these two is irrelevant in comparison and none of the three of us cares that much about it.
Both Mark and Robb understand well that I need no help publicly from them, nor would I ever ask or demand it. What we share in friendship goes far beyond paleo.
I think that there’s far too much sweating the petty stuff and not enough petting the sweaty stuff.
Cue Castle Anthrax! :-D
Nigel
No need to apologise to me, I like you just the way you are. BTW don’t overdo the “petting the sweaty stuff,” it can make you go blind !
Dan
I‘ll come back to you soon, but I‘m on the way out to the pub, you know how all us lowcarbers are alcoholics.
Regards
Eddie,
At last! We can all have a group hug. I much prefer being nice to being nasty.
Anyway, my mission is to disseminate (hopefully accurate) information about Diet, Nutrition, Fitness & Random stuff in a way that’s interesting to the lay public – hence the videos and pictures.
Feel free to leave comments on my blog posts on anything that you think is wrong, with links to studies. Some of my old posts may contain out-of-date information. Some hyperlinks have died of old age!
Cheers, Nige
Yes feel free to prove me wrong too on my blog. Although good luck with that since none of you bastards knows anything about marine biology:) But what you could do is call me a fat sexist pig and try to get on to another topic (sorry couldn’t help myself).
On a serious note though I think dissent and challenging paradigms is a great thing. We shouldn’t feel personally attacked if someone disagrees with our carb approach and can reasonably back it up with logic and evidence. I think there is arguments for and against at this stage.
Dan, your aim is admirable, no question. I just think that continuing reading and writing where ever you damn well please is exactly what achieves that aim and disarms this sort of thing, in this type of sphere – your case in point ;)
The only danger I see, and a tiny one at that, is if readers escalate this into ‘enemy camps’ by fanning enmities, over-greneralizing and sounding as paranoid as, well, each other. “Oooh, those evil feminists, they’re out to get the poor defenseless men, help!” :D
Meanwhile, the only example to draw from Pycon is more about the extent of the cluster-f* that can happen when everyone piles in. There were no winners there.
Nigel and Eddie, sigh. That’s quite the argumentative style, you…you Brits you! :D Nasty and nice, rude and polite : youtube.com/watch?v=i1leDAwjtto
Dan said…
“Yes feel free to prove me wrong too on my blog.”
Your very first blog post has no image – the link has died of old age!
Richard,
it popped out at me as I looked over this comment section searching for a thread: a healthful Playground for the active mind.
There’s an incredible density of valuable, current nutrition information with references, there’s people arguing detailed health issues, some helping others directly, and all of it is creatively intertwining and interPlaying with avante garde music, comedy videos, offbeat humor on French usage and Greek etymology (huh), debates on statistics, internet dating and social mores, feminism, anti-labelling, web wars….
Not to mention circling back to funny takes on male-female perceptions, beginning with those in the post itself that gets it all rolling.
…and that was just one post.
Thank you, mon cher.
I also blame it on the girls/boys….completing the circle of course, of course;) : youtube.com/watch?
Not sure that link worked, trying again or please fix : youtube.com/watch?v=iF_w7oaBHNo
Richard Nikoley said (in response to “I’m just bemused at the vast amount of energy expended…”)…
“It’s tantamount to reading the 24th comment by Nigel Kinbrum.”
You forgot to add
Nigel I have been playing around with the blog as i set it up in its new home. You probably just caught me as I was transferring stuff over. Don’t worry everything is thoroughly researched and absolutely correct. As long as those shoulders I stand on stay firm.
Marie you are probably right. Don’t think I am not a little worried that I am coming across as a nutjob.
marie said…
“Oh btw, for wankers vid, check out a group called “hard skin” :D”
youtube.com/watch?v=by81h49kCOo
I doff my hat to your Google fu. :-D
Dan, mais non, perhaps a bit impassioned, but that’s a trademark around here, eh? So’s the fundamental rationality of the people – case in point, again;)
Dan said…
“Nigel I have been playing around with the blog as i set it up in its new home.”
The image url still gives a 404.
Also, THIS. :-D
The following song what I just wrote for Richard is sung to the tune of the chorus in
You’re a pranker, you’re a pranker. And it does you good like it fucking well should.
You’re a pranker, you’re a pranker. And you’re always pulling our pud!
This is what I was thinking of.
Heard a bunch of young Brits sing that for the first time in a pub in the Roppongi district of Tokyo (where the expats hang out) back in about ’85ish.
“I’m just bemused at the vast amount of energy expended…”
It’s tantamount to reading the 24th comment by Nigel Kinbrum.
“what is your cause Nigel ? What is your mission ?”
Easy. Whatever you do to fix or harm yourself is irrelevant. You must know the science and you will probably be wrong, no matter what.
It’s as easy as going to a bar full of drunks and getting them to clap after you’ve sang your karaoke.
@marie
“ou Brits you!”
Save that YT for future use. While you’re at it, can you find a video of a bunch of drunken blokes in a pub singing “I’m a Wanker'” and save the one for future use as well?
Thank you. Your services are much appreciated.
“references, there’s people arguing detailed health issues, some helping others directly, and all of it is creatively intertwining and interPlaying with avante garde music, comedy videos, offbeat humor on French usage and Greek etymology (huh), debates on statistics, internet dating and social mores, feminism, anti-labelling, web wars….”
Try misogyny.
@marie
“Not sure that link worked”
Not sure either, first time I saw it working chronologically since about 12 hours away.
Hate that kind of music, but I got it nonetheless. Too many people are being too stupid.
Marie:girls/boys
“Golden Lads &Girls all must,
As chimney sweepers come to dust.”
” Jellicle cats and dogs all must
Like undertakers, come to dust.”
Dan are you double speaking, marketing, or just playing?
twitter.com/darwinstable/status/321453943228080129
“”Nigel I have been playing around with the blog as i set it up in its new home.”
The image url still gives a 404.
Also, THIS. :-D”
There’s Nigel. We’re always making plans, for Nigel. We only care about Nigel. We only want what’s best for him. Nigel just needs this helping hand. And if your Nigel says he’s happy, he must be happy…in his world.
Leon.
Stupid Cupid. Good finds. Yes, you get it.
Don’t kill the antagonism. How slowly would the Earth turn without it? Imagine 48 hour days where women can’t shit on men and men can’t shit on women…
Richard, my services are much appreciated? Sniff. I knew it. Women are just meant to serve you. I’m hurt. Feeling so used, used I say!
Oh btw, for wankers vid, check out a group called “hard skin” :D
LeonRover, I never did like Yorkshire terriers.
Imogen
Richard,
“try misogyny” – I’ll have to ask ladiesadie1, above ;)
Richard Nikoley // Apr 9, 2013 at 17:41
“It’s as easy as going to a bar full of drunks and getting them to clap after you’ve sang your karaoke.”
Karaoke is singing. Therefore, singing karaoke is singing singing, just as LCD displays are Liquid Crystal Display displays. People do karaoke. /patronising ;-)
Richard Nikoley quoted…
“@marie
“ou Brits you!””
I took Eddie’s comments as condescending/patronising, so my replies to him dripped with sarcasm.
Eddie held out an olive branch out of frustration from our “failure to communicate”.
I accepted the olive branch.
Job done!
Jscott said…
“Dan are you double speaking, marketing, or just playing?
twitter.com/darwinstable/status/321453943228080129 ”
Where I come from, that’s called “Giving credit where credit’s due.”
Richard Nikoley said…
“There’s Nigel. We’re always making plans, for Nigel. We only care about Nigel. We only want what’s best for him. Nigel just needs this helping hand. And if your Nigel says he’s happy, he must be happy…in his world.”
Wouldn’t it have been quicker to just do this youtube.com/watch?v=gXNhL4J_S00 ?
The Waco Yacht Club – formed by Brits – used to sport tee-shirts with this design:
Capital “W” with an Anchor underneath.
(In the ’80’s an Houstonian swore “blind” to me, that this was True . . . . )
Marie,
Phoenician Queen – ( so much better than Hg).
@Nigel
Could be. It was the “Other one” rant that made my eyebrow raise when I saw the tweet.
freetheanimal.com/2013/04/misadry-misogyny.html#comment-423392
But I have been known to play footsie under the table with a business enemy a time or two.
Oh, and good to see ya around again Leon!
May all your Transliterations belong to us.
Jscott said…
“@Nigel
Could be. It was the “Other one” rant that made my eyebrow raise when I saw the tweet.
freetheanimal.com/2013/04/misadry-misogyny.html#comment-423392 ”
That rant was two days ago. I’ve already forgotten about it.
Now, what was I saying about giving credit where credit’s due? ;-)
@nigel
You are gonna take credit for Leon? Hell, fine by me!
The crowds address The Nigel:
“Praise thee Oh Thou Fount of every blessing. May your Kinbrum be established and glory be yours. Forever and Amen.
@Jscott Cynicism I love it. Actually I thought there was a distinct difference between Melissa McEwan and Melissa McEwen and only just realised that Richard has a problem with the later as well. Clearly I need to do more reading. Ironically my conundrum is that I think Hunt Gather Love is one of my favourite blogs because of her honest approach to paleo, and that is what I responded too, and Free the Animal is my other. Well fuck! I have not read anything from her about feminism tripe. I think I am going to have to go back and reread some of Richards posts because clearly I am a bit confused as to which Melissa is which. But regardless it wont’ change the fact I like what she writes on her blog and it did help me. I see no double standard here. I am anti feminists, and am pro Melissa’s views on food. Unless you think someone should hate everything about what a person thinks just because you strongly disagree with them on a particular philosophy? I’m open to discussion on this.
I was talking about Richard’s latest post!
I’ll add I’m not anti woman’s rights, I am anti feminism as I don’t believe that is got anything to do with womans rights anymore.
@dan
Paleodrama.tumblr.com
Plus my posts. PD is McEwen.
Fuck. Off! I just dropped my glass and I’m not joking.
Man how can she have one blog that is sooo good and shares the exact same feelings towards food as I do, and then another that makes me want to spoon my eyeballs out with teaspoons and eat them rather than reading that bullshit. This sucks.
How did I not make this connection!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! When you talked about Melissa I was thinking it was the one with an ‘a’.
This thread continues to add depth of flavor!
@Dan
I figured Nigel did not quite get why I linked that up. Now, my dissonance can be eased.
“Unless you think someone should hate everything about what a person thinks just because you strongly disagree with them on a particular philosophy?”
Nope.
I once had people in my life that were quite the clones of each other.
So, I got drunk…alot.
I found new people. I quit getting drunk alot.
I find having friends where we have 2-3 hot topics that we fiercely disagree about to be a highlight
of being human.
There are SOME things (very few) that are so vile that I have no interest in finding common ground. I suppose
that is what the whole deal is in paleo land currently. Like Marie, I pick those things very carefully and spend little time in an uproar about anything else. Unless you touch my food.
youtube.com/watch?v=iCCzzZVVpIA
(BTW-I enjoy her hunt/gather blog. I enjoy many of her food/tech/life tweets. )
@Dan I think it’s important to differentiate between the different flavors of feminism. Feminism the movement has become a study in collectivism and identity politics.
Feminism the concept is an appreciation that men and society in general should not explicitly legislate inferior rights for women. I’m not a big fan of any of the legislation that gives women preferential treatment for anything, but I can kind of buy the argument that it might have been necessary early on in order to right a wrong. The continuance of this treatment is 100% bad though.
Eddie Mitchell,
I really appreciate your help and your efforts are more than I could ever ask for.
I left an email the other day through the general address on your blog (asking actually where to find the info before the links worked here) but I wonder whether it will reach you specifically, so if you do get more info or contacts through Dr.Wortman and want to reach me, please ask Richard for my address?
I’ve also contacted a couple of the scientists that I see are currently active in this, since professional curtesy and just plain common ground/language will often facilitate a response to even a scientist outside one’s field, apart from human empathy.
Meantime, the very first link you posted to the relatively recent (2011) Klement and Kamerer overview article about carbs and cancer is fantastic on many levels, whether being “from the horse’s mouth” to it’s references to the fact that actually most science-literate laymen can read it so that dad (an engineer) is also enjoying it!
We’re working our way through your other links now.
Thank you again.
I think feminism started out been what you proclaim but their actions speak very differently in 2013.
Jscott, +1 friends clip, Joey doesn’t share food……Now, “what were we talking about?” :D
Nigel, laf doffing hats, you twit, you twit….sod off, sod off, sod off, sod off ;)
LeonRover,
perhaps not better, for after I naively bequeathed the Dido Problem, I may just as well have circled around to alchemy.
your Alyssa
PS > I suppose ’tis better to go mad as a legend with suicidal grief than as a mundane hatter
Mistress of Seas,
“What’s Ithaca to he, or he to Ithaca
That he should weep for her ?”
What about Freddie ? Did his hair fall out ?
Your musical prize – from ” beyond the sunset, and the baths
Of all the western stars” – the other Middle Sea:
youtube.com/watch?v=LgggawsdiGg
PS I believe I’ve got a touch of age-related meandry.
LeonRover,
ah, but your meandry could gloriously fill an Odyssey, and yet true to form, it always leads to your queen Penelope. :)
Meanwhile you’re right, summarily dismissing a mercurial queen for wider circles is unforgivable. Tribute, and you prize: youtube.com/watch?v=v3xwCkhmies
Freddie. The most missable personality in history.
Yeah, Rich.
But you must be aware that Freddie is a musical answer to a relation ( 1-1 and onto) between Queen and Hg – it dido not require the “hair loss” vapour clue.
Not following, Leo. Sorry.
Richard, “following” is just not your style. True to form :D
And I so agree, Freddie breaks my heart, every time.
For Marie & Richard –
Raul again!!
youtube.com/watch?v=qrCwmQP-cWM
LeonRover, laf, awww.
And o.k., gee, I guess a three-way can be a lot of fun….
marie // Apr 10, 2013 at 15:05
“Nigel, laf doffing hats, you twit, you twit….sod off, sod off, sod off, sod off ;)”
Up you, up you, up you, up you!
I thought you’d appreciate that.
@marie,
sorry me again.
this study is a little old.
lucastafur.com/2011/08/advanced-cancer-and-ketogenic-diet_10.html
but gist is
KD alone is not enough
it has to be
1. calorie restricted
2. low protein
3. BG has to be low < 60 mg/dl
stay well,
Thanks Dr.CG. You know it’s interesting, the more I read of these the more I think my father has had such success and ease in reaching ketone levels because he’s been Losing considerable weight – due to the concurrent chemo (he’s calorically at par or slightly above pre-therapy).
He does apply it very strictly, eating fatty meats, fish and eggs, yogurt on alternate days and cauliflower on alternate days, cooked in olive oil, pastured butter or coconut oil – that’s it. Couldn’t afford to play around with anything else as it would require a lot of ‘calculating’.
Still, he finds it easy to do and satisfying – maybe the pre-reading and discussing is critical to that mental disposition. Plus the fact that it worked quickly to reach good keto-levels, which is encouraging of itself.
Not enough can be said about the psychological predisposition in such cases, something I think no study can account for unless it tries to specifically address it.
Which reminds me, the correlator’s latest, on psychosomatic effects (from an amer-indian/paeloish view no less) : healthcorrelator.blogspot.com/2013/04/cabeza-de-vaca-supernaturalism-and.html
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