What If You Ruin A Vegan Potato Salad With Chicken Stock?

Well first of all, I’m floored. …No, it’s not about Lyle McDonald’s revelation today over living a double life as a porn producer.

Nope, I’m talking about yesterday’s post: What If You Modified Dr. McDougall’s Program To “Starch-Based Paleo?” I was prepared to duck for cover; but as it turns out, the comments are not that at all. Rather, I see a combination of folks who’ve already adopted something similar, along with folks asking some of the same questions that plague me.

For instance: is added fat in any way paleo or Primal? No, it’s not. Rendering and isolating fats is solidly a neolithic/agriculture/pastoralist thing. Can we be honest with ourselves? Is a huge part of the backlash over Paleo over the last half decade well deserved—with its images of bacon in pounds, and swimming pools of added fat? On the other hand, I’m no big vegan fanboy. Just ask DurianRider: Live Debate: The Animal (That’s Me) vs. Durianrider (Raw Fruit Vegan Harley Johnstone).

Over the ensuing years, it has nagged at me that I think they’re just both very wrong, but for different reasons. The vegans are just wrong because they’re fucktarded about basic anthropology and simply dismiss mountains of science that we’ve been omnivores for a very fucking long time—and gorillas get more animal product than vegan humans (via insects). It was the Tiger Nuts, however, that made me realize that Paleo, as currently peddled, is just as fucktardedly wrong. Different reasons.

And so, I’m at the point where I desire to see if there’s a possible synthesis between the two. Real Food veganism has profound elements of paleo, and they rightly put paleo in short pants over some things (like added fats). And bacon is just not paleo in any stretch of the imagination, nor are virtually any of the snacks and treats from the flashy money whores out there. Nor are any of the similarly fucktarded “paleo” websites devoted to baking shit.

So, in some respects, the Real Food vegans are more paleo than faux Paleo. But, just as for the low carbers, no animal is as fucktardedly baked into the cake as is the fuclktardism of no-or-low carbs.

Pissed off, yet? If not, then here. Let me help some more.

IMG 2704

…After yesterday’s post, I got into in-for-a-penny-in-for-a-pound mode. I’m curious. I actually have never done anything but a relatively high meat/fat diet. It was more “balanced” when I was growing up—vegetables and starches were always part of every meal. Meat was always treasured but as I retro-spect, so were so many of the veggie or starch preparations. I have my mom’s cookbook and it’s loaded with vegetable preparations across the board.

So I’m just going to do an experiment where fruits and starches make up the foundation, augmented with all that leafy shit, plus an egg every now and then, and meat/seafood measured in ounces.

What happens? I don’t know. What I do know is that I’m not afraid of the result in any slight manner. I embrace the ‘what it is, is.’ Do you? What really stops you from taking any action out of your comfort zone? Is it fear on various levels, or is it something rational?

Here’s the vegan foundation of that dish:


  • 2 pounds Yukon gold potatoes
  • 1/4 cup red wine vinegar
  • 3 tablespoons vegetable broth
  • 1 teaspoon creole or other whole grain mustard
  • 1/4 teaspoon salt, or to taste
  • generous grating of black pepper
  • 1/16 teaspoon hickory smoked salt or other smoked salt
  • 1/3 cup sliced green onions or chopped red onions

What I did was:

  1. Used apple cider vinegar (no diff)
  2. Used 3 tablespoons of EVIL CHICKEN BROTH (in place of veg broth), from leftover chicken soup with an apple in it (completely ruined it as inedible for vegans)
  3. Used Maille Dijon mustard (no diff)
  4. Used finely ground back pepper (no diff)
  5. Used 1/8 teaspoon of smoked paprika in place of the smoked salt (no diff)
  6. Added 1/3 cup of thinly sliced celery (no diff)
  7. Used both green onions and paper-thin sliced yellow onions (no diff)

So, see how adding chicken stock ruined it for vegans? Fucktarded? Of course.

See how it’s potatoes, ruining it for physiologically insulin resistant VLCers and diabetics, convinced that their pancreas and metabolism must remain a couch potato in fear of a spike—analogous to a rapid heart beat when climbing stairs after a year of playing Call of Duty? Fucktarded? Of course.

Later, I’m going to piss off vegans and LC/Paleos even more. I have a half dozen chicken thighs in the fridge. I’m going to broil them, no added fat. Then, I’m going to eat exactly one of them (2-3 oz of actual meat, I guess) with about a half plate of that potato salad.

So, it pisses off the vegans twice, and the Paleos, twice or more:

  1. Vegans are vegans. So, the dish is ruined because of the chicken stock. Plus, there’s the thigh of a face on my plate and it’s poison.
  2. Paleos are paleos (and VLC are VLC). So, the dish is ruined because it has starchy white potatoes and not cauliflower purée. Furthermore, its calorie and fat content have not been boosted by exponential factors by adding olive oil, butter, mayo, coconut oil, or any and all. Moreover, it’s not 4-6 chicken thighs, all sautéed in some cooking fat, reduced to a sauce on top, sprinkled in bacon bits.

OK, I didn’t even start writing this post until I tasted the dish. Never had a fat free potato salad before. I hope there’s enough left for Beatrice and the chicken thighs…. Now I’m thinking about a million ways I can fuck with this recipe.


  1. Skyler Tanner on October 15, 2014 at 12:22

    Well we can now say without question that Lyle is, and always has been, way more hardcore than you’ll ever be, Richard.

    And I guess I walk amongst the infidels, because no Ancestral Health authorities that I’m in regular contact look down on regular potatoes. I certainly never gave them up.

    • Richard Nikoley on October 15, 2014 at 13:04

      “Well we can now say without question that Lyle is, and always has been, way more hardcore than you’ll ever be, Richard.”

      I was chagrined!


    • Forager on October 21, 2014 at 11:39

      I forage for most of my food. I have done this for decades. I do this because I like to. Potatoes don’t grow wild. I assume they need the help of a farmer to continue to exist. The story is the same for almost everything you will find in the produce department. My point is edible wild starches that don’t require more labor than they are worth are almost nonexistent in the wild.
      I have watched herbivores in the wild they spend almost all day eating. I find it easier to let herbivores gather the plant food. Also they turn it into something tasty.

    • Richard Nikoley on October 22, 2014 at 13:30

      Wild starches nonexistent? Well, you’re simply woefully uninformed.


  2. Nick on October 15, 2014 at 12:29

    So you’re saying it’s good? I was planning on making a batch of p-salad today anyway… I’m thinking that combining a potato salad and chicken salad together sounds like it may be worth a try – having crispy bits of chicken goodness throughout. I’ll let you know how it turns out.

    On another note, where do you think a high fat “healthy” whole nut like raw macadamia fits in this new shift of thinking?

    I’m glad you’re exploring this, as this has been my shift in thought lately, though not as severe in the no fat shift.

    • Richard Nikoley on October 15, 2014 at 14:24

      That’s an interesting Q, Nick.

      1. I no longer believe the fantasy that Inuit were high fat. They are absolutely high protein, av >300g per day. I have done 270-300 and know what a choke down that is (knowing I had other options).

      2. I am way more inclined to believe that a number of equatorial islander populations are the true high fat cultures.

      I’m chewing on #2. Future project.

  3. rob on October 15, 2014 at 12:29

    Apparently Mac Daddy Lyle also owns a strip club.

    I checked out the website, looks like a nice place.

  4. Mitch W. on October 15, 2014 at 12:39

    But Richard you can’t do that. Don’t you know that you can experiment with anything that goes against the Paleo or Vegan dogma. You must obey slave. Really the biggest theme across all health diets is eat more plants. Eat lots of veggies, fruits and starchy tubers and your most of the way there. Although meat is important to us, it seems that we do not need as much as we think we need. It would be interesting to try and hold other variables as constant as possible and after a while double your meat content and see how you feel. A bit of pseudo science, but hey that’s the fun part.

    • Richard Nikoley on October 15, 2014 at 14:14


      Yea, as I wrote in the post, I’ve never tried this. Yet, I’ve expounded on it.

      I have a single purpose, though: get vegans to put chicken stock in their potato salad. :)


    • Gina on October 15, 2014 at 19:38

      Probably not happening… but I will use chicken-flavored stock. ;)

      We vegans are still mired in a truly fucktarded debate about honey, so I’m guessing the chicken stock idea will be a lead balloon.

  5. Gina on October 15, 2014 at 12:55

    I predict weight loss. Welcome to the dark side. ;)

    I’m making that potato salad.

  6. FrenchFry on October 15, 2014 at 13:34

    Man! That’s the way I usually eat :D
    Except on Sunday, where it’s “fat day” (chantilly cream, butter sauce, huge omelettes, whatever fatty meat or fish).

    Actually, it’s quite fascinating that you are doing this only now. But mieux vaut tard que jamais :) Let’s see how you do after a few weeks. I expect great “relief” (not talking about bowel movement at all, but something more … mmm … “spiritual” … lacking a good word here).

  7. tw on October 15, 2014 at 13:58

    That recipe would be even better if you added…..dare I say it…..some bacon.

    • Nick M on October 15, 2014 at 16:00

      Gotta admit it… this was my first thought too.

    • Douglas on October 16, 2014 at 08:36

      Well, I fuckin love my bacon. I put plenty in my potatoe salad as well as added fats/oil, until it tastes just right. Fuck if it ain’t paleo. I live in 2014 and after all the paleo/anti-paleo reading I have done I’ll say one thing and there is more truth to this than all the dogmas about it – it’s paleo because I say it is! Our ancestors did their best to feed themselves the best way they could with what they could find. In that sense, agriculture was probably meant to help that simply – having some grub to feed the folks. Of course what makes you sick is probably better avoided but that even is a trial and error quest. In that sense, eating salty peanuts and mars bars because you are stuck with nothing else (not recommended otherwise) is also paleo because you are surviving and not allowing yourself to starve. Optimal nutrition? Not likely… In that sense, paleo is a template, a framework, a starting point. I would call my way of eating “evolutionary nutrition” because it is just that, finding the best food I can in all circumstances. Circumstances and knowledge evolve with me, with knowledge of myself (that is changing with time and age) and scientific/empiric nowledge that is forever evolving. Fuck all dogmas – they’re probably the cause of all diseases.

    • Richard Nikoley on October 16, 2014 at 09:27

      “Fuck if it ain’t paleo.”

      True enough. On the other hand, it’s more ridiculous to label cured meats, heaps of rendered fat, or all the various sweet and baked treats “Paleo.”

      That my principle beef. Similarly, VLC Ketogenic may indeed be A-OK, but the Inuit are no justification for it.

      Anyway, what I’m trying to open up the discussion about here is to at least consider deeply the idea of added fats and how it just might be the thing that’s fucking stuff up for lots of people. So, not fear of fat in any respect. Have the ribs, chicken with the skin, etc. But, how about forego the quarter cup of added fat on greens and just use something else, like a veggie puree, lemon, vinegar, etc.

      I think it’s worth considering.

      It’s funny how things come full circle. I recall Art DeVany wasn’t very big on copious added fat, spoonfuls of coconut oil or butter, nut butters, etc. And, he trimmed the fat from his meat—though he was never afraid to eat a plate of intra-fatty ribs. He used small bits of olive oil for grilling veggies and his salads always looked very lightly dressed.

    • Douglas on October 16, 2014 at 09:50

      I totally agree with you. I think “everything is worth considering”, everything should be fair game (or fair flora?). Is it not the point of life after all? Or be a follower? The debate about paleo/non paleo has just got ridiculous. I sense that some people are gripped with anguish at the point of making supper, thinking if only they could call Mark Sisson to check about that food in teier hands… Not critisizing Sisson’s at all here because I think he does an excellent job! But debate and experiment, and live!

    • LeonRover on October 16, 2014 at 11:55

      “Fuck all dogmas”

      Fuck-all, God-mas.

      Dog-all, fuck Mas.

      God-all, Mass-fuck.

      Duck all, fogged Mas.

      sPerm yr combs, poon yr eyes.

      If ya geddit Rich will let ya stay.

  8. Richard Nikoley on October 15, 2014 at 14:56

    “That recipe would be even better if you added…..dare I say it…..some bacon.”

    Or tongue, well bitten and chewed. :)

    • LeonRover on October 16, 2014 at 11:58

      Tripe á la mode de Folies Bergére is tongue in Chic.

  9. Geoff on October 15, 2014 at 16:24

    OK I admit it after getting over the surprise and amazement at Lyle’s announcement I kept reading: “Plus there’s a thigh on my face….”

    The diet you are exploring recently is strangely reminiscent of the one on which Clarence Bass got famously “Ripped” (minus the PB sandwiches). Everything old is new again. I am intrigued.

  10. Geoffrey on October 15, 2014 at 18:02

    This recipe looks excellent. I just roasted 3 pounds of different colored potatoes this afternoon, but once that’s gone, I’ll make this. It’s very similar to German potato salad, and for that version they do add bacon, which I might have to do too.

    Since I started eating carbs again, mostly potatoes and fruits a few months ago, I have felt so much better. And it also makes sense to start eating less meat, I’m definitely a carnivore, but on the VLC diet I was so starved I was eating meat like a dog, and then often having negative GI symptoms. At lunch I had a small piece of meat and when out to dinner tonight I decided to forgo meat, something I haven’t done in a restaurant in years, and order a gluten free pasta dish with calamato olives, chard, tomatoes, mozzarella, pine nuts, and pesto, and it was absolutely delicious, and I feel so good now. I didn’t need more meat, or chicken, etc. I had enough at lunch and the little bit of ham for breakfast was definitely enough for one day. Intuitively or instinctively this makes sense and the biggest indicator of how right this is is how I feel now. No more leg/foot cramping during the night.

    Thanks to Richard and everyone for their posts, I may have finally found a blog where I feel I belong, and that’s a feat! And I can even deal with the ubiquitous “fuktard” that Richard so loves to spout about.

    • Richard Nikoley on October 15, 2014 at 21:17

      “Intuitively or instinctively this makes sense and the biggest indicator of how right this is is how I feel now. No more leg/foot cramping during the night.”

      Funny, I was just now thinking the same thing. Granted, this is just day 1, and I still had about a half gallon of raw milk. So, my day was a bunch of grapes, some of that potato salad, some cherry tomatoes, couple glasses of milk. Dinner was a small piece of chicken, more potato salad. Feel really good, especially GI wise.

  11. Michelle on October 15, 2014 at 18:15

    Chicken thighs – skin on or off?

    • Richard Nikoley on October 15, 2014 at 21:18

      “skin on or off?”

      Skin off, but not by design. The market had no individuals with skin.

  12. pzo on October 15, 2014 at 19:13

    Or, add this confounder:

    Save every bone, mammalian or avian, and every bit of gristle that you couldn’t eat, into a baggie in the freezer.

    Eventually , it fills. Boil all the contents for several hours. Result: probably as best as we can get nowadays to “nose to tail.” Large chunks of collagen, meat, more minerals than any vegan diet can provide.

    Use said broth with some lentils, hugely loaded in RS. Farts ensue, joints rejoice, all is well…until you go to vegan websites.

    • Richard Nikoley on October 15, 2014 at 21:22

      Tonight, I took 3 ladles of the chicken soup broth from the fridge. Virtually fat free since the fat was in chunks and I avoided them (I know, not necessarily the PUFA, except what’s bound up with the other stuff). Anyway, reduced to about 6 TBS with a pinch of tarragon and some shaved green onion. Made a fantastic light flavor enhancing sauce for the broiled chicken thigh.

  13. Alesia on October 16, 2014 at 07:31

    Thank you and others from the Paleo world for coming out and making okay to eat carbs!
    I was doing VLC/HF for over a year lost 60lbs, then I started getting hormonal acne. Just kept getting worse. I added in RS & soil based probiotics, I felt better but my face especially chin was a wreak. I’ve been higher carb for a week and a half, and I am now supplementing K2, I have no more puss filled mountains! I also have more energy, go figure. My pants are a bit tighter but I figure once my insulin knows how to work again it’ll be all good. Thanks!
    I’m looking forward to hear more about your N=1.

  14. Starch lvr on October 16, 2014 at 07:47

    I can’t believe that anyone that reads this blog regularly, hasn’t adapted a more vegetarian (NOT vegan) approach to eating. It has reopened my eyes to eating foods I enjoy and feeling good (not guilty) about it.

    I just jump started my attempt to drop a few pounds, 3 days ago with the Potato diet. I added tiger nuts in to the ‘hack’ and have dropped 9 pounds in 3 days! And that’s eating as many potatoes and tiger nuts as I felt like. Maybe it’s all in my head, but I really do feel like a new man.

    This could not have happened without this blog – thanks to all of the “Myth-Busters” involved!!

  15. Dan on October 16, 2014 at 13:36

    Interesting take Richard, It remind me a little of the paleo diet that Loren Cordain pushed back in 2009. Although without the potatoes I guess:)

    I must say it has got me thinking. I’m a little in freefall right now because I lost 20kg on low carb but it has stopped for months. Then I tried low carb, and moderate protein (125g of protein – protein only so about 400g of meat). Despite all this, and exercising, my body seems to refuse to become ketoadapted AND lose weight. So now I’m wondering – do I lower the calories do they actually matter because it seems they do despite what the low carbers say. Do I need to lower my carbs or protein further. OR do I change it and just eat lots of plants with some meat. It is so confusing. Sucks because I didn’t cheat once, ate exactly how I was supposed to (<50g carbs, < 125g protein). Still didn't lose.

  16. Dan on October 16, 2014 at 13:38

    And I really fucking want to lose.

    • LeonRover on October 16, 2014 at 14:11

      Then you must be a wanting loser.

      Do not make comments that yr English teacher could criticise. Arsehole

    • FrenchFry on October 16, 2014 at 14:15

      … but it has stopped for months …

      didn’t cheat once, ate exactly how I was supposed to (<50g carbs, < 125g protein). Still didn't lose …

      Several issues here (most likely):
      – leptin
      – gut microbiome starving
      – physiological insulin resistance

      If I were you, I would reverse things for a while:
      – high (good) carbs (tubers, fruits)
      – low fat
      – high protein

      Eat most of your carbs in the morning if you can, muscles are more insulin sensitive in the morning than fat stores, it shifts progressively toward the evening (circadian influence).

      Restore your gut microbiome with enough fermentable carbs from as many sources as possible (inulin, resistant starch that is reheated, other fibers).

      The VLC approach you prolonged is only a quick weight loss tool, it can’t be a long term approach for optimal health. I know ketogenic diets have had some popularity recently but they should only remain therapeutic.

      I believe this blog promotes a much more balanced approach when it comes to macros, and recommend diversity, and a weekly fast of ~ 1 to 1.5 day.

    • FrenchFry on October 16, 2014 at 14:16

      I forgot to include legumes in the carb sources.

    • Richard Nikoley on October 16, 2014 at 15:39


      What I’d like to see you try is up the starches and fruit, and eliminate all ADDED fat. I’m very curious if this is going to make a difference for people. Cook with minimal when needed, but drain it off while serving if you’ve cooked in a pan or pot (so more like grilled food).

      Cut out fat-based salad dressings, etc. Eat a bit more starch or fruit when hungry.

    • Daniel on October 16, 2014 at 20:43

      Yeah I am going to give that a try. I was just thinking back and the last two times I have lost the weight it was generally when I did the Loren Cordain version of paleo which was when I eliminated the fat and didn’t worry about my carb intake (which came from fruits mostly, but also tubers). I will give this a try. I really feel disheartened by the whole low carb thing it clearly didn’t work without reducing calories, and if you need to reduce calories then you can no longer say it was the carbs – because it could be the calories.

    • Daniel on October 17, 2014 at 18:21


    • Daniel on October 17, 2014 at 18:23

      I just said that because someone told me once that you shouldn’t make comments that your English teacher could criticize.

    • Daniel on October 17, 2014 at 18:27

      Just to clarify. It is true I hadn’t lost for months and the whole strict low carb thing was certainly less than that. In fact, that is why I went more strict because up until that stage it wasn’t working. But I still didn’t lose weight doing the whole very low carb, and strict, approach for over a month. I was low carb before that but not as strict.

  17. john on October 17, 2014 at 02:14

    I’ve been onto this for over a year now. After discovering the amount of gibberish in the paleo/lowcarb online world it led me to include more fruit and starch.
    My health drastically improved and I became way more curious about what constitutes a healthy diet for day-to-day well being and longevity. No internet diet guru’s are correct and without bias, but I now feel the plant based diet has way more evidence behind it. This has been known for decades, which is why any diet for health or weight loss includes fruits and vegetables.

    The epiphany came when I started eating as much starch as I wanted for a week (including the evil gut destroying gluten containing bread) and found myself feeling as “normal” and level headed as I felt as a teenager.

    The research on resistant starch and other benefits of fibre has only confirmed my views.

    These days I base my meals around potatoes, rice, corn, wholegrain bread, beans, tubers and avocado’s. Mainly because these foods are cheap and leave me feeling extremely satisfied and healthy. I fill in the rest of my diet with whatever I really feel like at the time. The weekends usually include some pizza and bbq ribs.

    • FrenchFry on October 17, 2014 at 03:37

      Hey John,

      I concur with you except on bread. I’d be very picky on the wheat type. If I decided to have bread every day (I lost this daily habit a long time ago and don’t plan to have it again), I’d go for ancient strains such as spelt and einkorn / kamut, and bread based on slow fermented sour dough. This bread triggers absolutely no weird effects in me. I had rebuilt my gut health but I don’t plan to compromise it again with modern wheat, the latter is way to problematic.

      That’s my position on wheat and related species. I tend to go along the WAPF recommendations, as far as I understood them.

  18. Dr.+Curmudgeon+Gee on October 18, 2014 at 05:14

    i’d ruin it more by few bacon bits


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