Mark Sisson Schools Jimmy Moore On Keto Clarity
Well I never thought I’d be recommending a Jimmy Moore, Livin’ La Vida Low-Carb podcast again—even though I’ve been a guest three times and a host once.
I just can’t take it…until I can, I guess, and this is one of those times because, you see, Mark Sisson is uniquely suited and positioned to be the one to very diplomatically shine a light on Jimmy’s endless stream of bullshit and excuses—like his latest one…mold made him fat. Well, Jimmy, it’s advisable to not eat too much mold too often. It’s got calories. “Carbage,” probably, too.
In this hour-long episode, Mark goes to great lengths to explain what a short-term Keto Reset is and why it might be beneficial as a sort of jump start. I’ve not yet read Mark’s book, but this interview demonstrates to me that he truly has Keto Clarity surrounding all of this and I’ll be sure to snag my copy when it’s published soon.
If you’re pressed for time, then at least listen to the last 20-30 minutes, which is the portion where Mark takes Jimmy to task in a manner of gentleness I don’t believe Jimmy deserves but what can you do? Mark is the guest and Jimmy specializes in a sycophantic following that rallies behind him in a demonstration of faux outrage and girly sympathy any time the obvious gets pointed out and Jimmy whines about being bullied and emotionally hurt.
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Will it do any good for Jimmy? Of course not. Here, read for yourself, Jimmy introducing the show on his Facebook Page. Not to give too many spoilers but let’s just say that in those final 25-minutes—to Jimmy’s astonishment—Mark drives home the absolute requirement for an energy-intake deficit (count calories, eat fewer of them), amongst many other nuggets. So, does Jimmy whisper even a hint of that, anywhere? No, of course not—probably because oodles of his sycophantic, gluttonous, fat-gobbling fans would just dismiss it without even listening…and then they wouldn’t hear all of the ads for low-carb and keto junk food, scooping up the coupon codes so Jimmy gets paid. What do we see, instead?
Listen in today and Jimmy talks to Mark about what separates his new book from other keto guides, how you can eat to satiety without stressing about calories…
Yep, the same message as always, completely ignoring Mark’s absolute admonishment that “it’s the only way this works.” But in Jimmy’s La-La Land, there’s this magic thing where you can always “eat to satiety” (stuff your face) “without stressing about calories” (you stress about everything but calories, including getting fatter…but at least you don’t have to stress about how much you overstuff your face, or how often).
Marty Kendall in his Facebook Group Optimizing Nutrition gives a good point-summary of the last 20 minutes of the interview.
Mark’s tirade in the last 20 mins is gold! Key points:
- Mark doesn’t encourage people to worry too much about tracking blood ketones and glucose, he goes more by symptoms.
- Lots of very healthy people (he mentioned Luis Villasenor as an example) don’t see high ketone values even though they are following a low carb approach.
- After a while, the body learns to use fat and doesn’t need to pump out a bunch of ketones.
- Mark’s focus is on seeing how little energy he can get away with while maximising nutrition with that food (i.e. nutrient density).
- Humans are more human when we’re not eating.
- If we want to lose body fat we need a caloric deficit. The body can burn fat from bacon or your butt.
- Most of the really good stuff happens when you’re burning body fat, not so much when you’re burning dietary fat.
- No need to worry about your metabolism slowing down if you eat less, particularly if you are already fat adapted. Once you are fat adapted then you need to force an energy deficit to reduce body fat.
So, how much does that sound like “…how you can eat to satiety without stressing about calories?”
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So, just more of the same noise, so that a valid signal always get’s drowned out.
A couple of additional points I’d make to add to Marty’s list. At the point in the interview where Mark begins interviewing Jimmy himself, the hemming and hawing become palpable “…too many carbs…insulin resistance…cortisol…too much protein…ha ha ha…” and on and on. Just substitute “eats too much too often,” and that will cover the whole deal. Plus, as I have pointed out, the only way Jimmy can pile on so much fat while showing such steady and in-range glucose (now 24/7 constant monitoring every 5 minutes) is if he’s insulin-sensitive.
Mark asks Jimmy how many calories he thinks he consumes. Ready for a knee-slapping laugh? “About 2,500.” Well, wait just a second; how could he know? In Jimmy’s La-La Land, you count carbs to be sure you don’t eat too many grams; you count protein to be sure you don’t eat too much and make glucose; and you count ketones to be sure you’re eating enough fat, have purchased enough exogenous ketone drinks, keto snacks, and consumable test strips with coupon codes, so that Jimmy’s ad and affiliate revenue can be meticulously counted. Everything get’s counted, except fat grams and kilojoules.
…So what you do not do, what you never do, is count calories, because those numbers could shock you, especially given that the mainstay of the diet is fat and is more than twice as energy dense by gram than either carbohydrate or protein.
…So, let’s see. Jimmy is 6′ 3″ I believe, and let’s say about 300 pounds currently. According to Kevin Hall’s Body Weight Planner, Jimmy is not being forthright.
I used “light” for work activity and “moderate” for leisure. So, “about 2,500” calories my ass. He’s off by about 1,500 calories, or, two unaccounted for sticks of butter.
But Mark didn’t dispute his obvious lie; he just said, “well, okay, what if you went down to 1,800 calories?” Looks like Mark Sisson and Kevin Hall would be on the same page as concerns jimmy moore.
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…I’d like to say well, we’ll see, but I think all we’ll see is just Moore of jimmy moore, just like we always do.
A final thought is that in the way Mark expressed his approach, there’s a sense that this Keto Reset might be called a Robert C. Atkins Reset equally well. Or, back to sane low-carb dieting that Jimmy had proven success with. Why? Because Mark’s reset is a lot like Atkins induction (as I understand it), except it’s in a whole-food, primal context; so upgraded, modernized, and undoubtedly better for overall health than unlimited soy-oil mayonnaise and lunchmeat.
You don’t chase ketones, you chase results. If you’re getting results, you’ll show some ketones but they should diminish over time, because you become adapted to your tissues burning free fatty acids directly, leaving the low levels of ketones for the brain, which cannot burn fat. Moreover, that better metabolic conditioning also likely leaves more glucose for the brain as well. So, it can be a one-two-punch if you’re so inclined. I’m not, personally. I don’t care to typically be in glucose starvation mode. Potatoes are wonderful for me. But, if it’s your deal, at least do it right.
By chasing ketones after this fat adaptation, induction, reset, or whatever you want to call it, you’re shooting yourself in the foot. Why? Because ketones are ant-ketogenic! It’s called negative feedback. Increasing ketone levels shut down body-fat burning because there’s no need for more ketones. Also, in this state of glucose deprivation in a sea of high ketone levels and diminished body-fat enlistment, you’re likely to start catabolizing lean mass to make needed glucose, according to Mark.
Here’s the link to the podcast.
Finally, hey, if you didn’t catch my own interview on Ketosanity vs. Ketotardedness, it was out just a couple of days ago on the Sigma Nutrition Radio Podcast by Danny Lennon.
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I still don’t really like how Sisson espouses ketosis by eliminating carbs just because it’s hyped up at the moment (though commercially speaking understandable). But I’m glad he hasn’t lost his sanity and schooled Jimmy nicely. You could tell Jimmy was confused and discombobulated and didn’t know how to react.
I loved Marks quote pointing at Jimmy “you have appreciable amounts of stored energy” hahah
I spit out my coffee on that one. Sisson. Ever the diplomat.
I don’t keep up much with nutrition blogs these days, but happened to run into this recently:
http://www.cheeseslave.com/sad-state-health-blogosphere-rip-dr-ron-rami/
Several known WAPF followers have died recently. Some have been quite young–in their 30s. The Cheeseslave blogger thinks it’s due to them taking copious amounts of a fermented cod liver oil product. I have no idea, but some of these supplement junkies (Dave Asprey, that’s you) have no idea what all these substances they ingest do inside them–and how they react with each other.
Well, I’m always reluctant to dive headlong into the correlation –> causation game, but I think there’s sufficient anecdote to at least be suspicious.
And, it’s something nobody needs to take. I take zero fish oil, for years (I do something crazy: eat fish). And I’m fine with synthetic K2 from LEF, along with D, but only from time to time. I don’t take any supplements on any sort of must have schedule.
I’ve always liked Ann Marie. Right there demonstrates why.
I agree and am the same way. I take D3/K2 sometimes, and occasionally B12 when I’m not eating much meat. Beyond that, I see over-supplementing as dangerous but a money maker for certain “gurus.”
I still hate “keto”, even with Sisson’s spin. What sane person would embark on a diet that is guaranteed to make them feel like shit for a couple weeks, give them cat-piss breath, and any deviation away from the strict carb requirement requires they start all over again. And if done even slightly wrong may lead to thyroid problems, long-term metabolism issues, and even rapid weight gain. Just crazy. But hey, it sells books. People searching for books need some “Keto Insanity” or Ketardedness” books as well.
My approach here is a pragmatic one, since I don’t do low carb myself—except some meals now and then because “just the meat, ma’am.” I do probably average out as so-called moderate. Last night was braised short ribs, and before completing the sauce, I ran it through my fat skimmer and estimate I rid the dish for 2 of AT LEAST 1,000 calories. Equivalent to a stick of butter. The mashed potatoes were made with about 3 TBS of half & half and 3 TBS of low-fat yogurt, and they were great, a perfect medium for the low-fat sauce.
Simply put: if you like LC or “keto” or insist on giving it a try, then by all means, pay attention to Sisson or Luis Villasenor and the other dudes at Ketogains, and literally ignore everyone else, especially Jimmy and anyone affiliated with him.
How are we to understand seyfrieds recommendations to achieve ketosis or a ketone/glucose ratio range under conditions of cancer therapy? A alorie deficit must be in the equation somewhere. I guess I need to review.
Also, tim…..I enjoy potatoes , without any fats added, although along with meat and occasionally non starch veggie. Is that counterproductive?
Hap:
Google around for Chad Masias and if you have a Facebook account, scan his timeline:
https://www.facebook.com/chad.macias
It’s way complicated. Some cancers and tumors can easily shift to ketones, or love ketones, and autophagy can also signal increased growth. There’s also something called the Reverse Warburg Effect.
TL;DR: it’s not as simple as LCers, ketonians, CRONs, and fasters make it out to be.
Oh, and this is really great:
http://sigmanutrition.com/episode169/
Here’s a published rebuttal by Chad Macias and Tim Sharpe to some recent research Seyfried was a co-author on.
Tumor Metabolism, the Ketogenic Diet and Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy In Systemic Metastatic Cancer: Is the evidence lacking?
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/comment?id=10.1371%2Fannotation%2F4d40c2fd-efba-4e22-bb51-64ad95162992&fullSite
Richard
I will read through this stuff. I realize that molecular biology is complex and potential “workarounds” are possible theoretically and sometimes in practice. I think the general hypothesis of Seyfried is going a good direction. Outliers or alternatives initiated by barely used conserved pathways….are opportunities for a crazed cancer to take on. But Seyfried as I understand him is generally saying, now let’s look at the problem from a metabolic perspective, target the energy production with some pressure which could weaken (even severely if perhaps temporary), but also continue with conventional DNA damage and checkpoint therapies and hit it , as much as possible, where it hurts everywhere. All the time evaluating for some kind of breakout.
I think Seyfried is misunderstood to some extent and an opportunity for others with different agendas to sound off or appear smart.
There is a substantial pile of evidence for his assertions…..AND there are no really good treatments for metastatic cancer. What would you do if that was your plight….?
Regarding Circadian rhthyms and ketogenic diet “reset”…..I may have to consider retracting some of my earlier comments regarding Sisson.
http://www.cell.com/cell-metabolism/fulltext/S1550-4131(17)30500-4
“What would you do if that was your plight….?”
Talk to lots of oncologists and study as much oncology literature as I can. Also, look for who has the best clinically documented remission and cure track record.
I’ll pass on consulting Suzzie The Cheery Holistic Coach for sure. 🙂
Richard
Your answer make sense……and somebody with your curiosity, breadth of knowledge, and analytic mind would be very stimulated to go this way. Many do….and they find themselves at City of Hope, Memorial Sloan Kettering, Dana Farber, MD Anderson etc…. and there’s a lot going on. But depending on a number of factors, the results are not that good.
I think someone like you would discuss with these doctors how they viewed adjunct treatments, grounded in science (but not yet validated to orthodoxy) and not superstition, and to an extent determine if they were willing to work with you on something that gave you a sense of participation and control ….and not completely at the mercy of very deadly poisons or the cancer treatment mill.
This is already happening at many medical centers. Frankly, I might pass on participating in a RCT when it came to nutritional support or metabolic therapies like brief fasting, fast mimicking, or KD…..and might go wobbly on HBOT, although a center relatively close by and sessions reasonably priced. I’m a wuss when it comes to being sealed in a hyperbaric chamber for 2 hours.s Never considered submarine duty.
Yep, consult with as many who actually know what they’re talking about in oncology, whether part of the “system” or not, synthesize and integrate, put together your own treatment plan.
…I heard somewhere, could be urban rumor, that many MDs just arrange their affairs when they get a serious cancer diagnosis, because they’ve seen it too close from the inside for so long.
I have not seen that to be a truism…….suspect urban rumor with perhaps exception for GBM , ALL, Pancreatic cancer. Not to mention extreme late stage metastatic cancers.
Here’s one that could end up proving Jack Kruse to be “right”
http://www.cell.com/cell-metabolism/fulltext/S1550-4131(17)30484-9
He’s been saying all along, and not the first one to do so that cell senescence and stem cell aging under significant epigenetic influence. Epi/Paleo/RX
Which is……a combination of at least a KD and a pretty rough Cold Thermogenesis protocol….as well as Circadian Rhthym resets etc.
http://www.cell.com/cell-metabolism/fulltext/S1550-4131(17)30484-9
I don’t know if you consider him a nut or a guru….but he has a flair for blogging and connecting encyclopedic (and potentially disjointed) knowledge into connected dots.
Jack, guru?
Hahaha.
You don’t know the history, then. We used to chat on the phone a lot, back in the day, like 2011-12.
He got so outrageous that I had to spank him and sever ties. It’s on the blog. It has nothing to do with whether he’s right or wrong now, but back then, he claimed to have injected himself with MSRA and cured it via laying in ice.
That he says and sometimes does outrageous things…..is problematic. But Wim Hof did allow himself to be injected with significant LPO endotoxin and was monitored medically in an acute setting. It did not phase him.
If you remember the old toxic shock syndrome experience by women using bad tampons….it would be about the same.
Did JK make this MRSA thing up….claiming he was just doing what pioneers in medicine have done before him? Who the fuck knows?
But man can he blather…….
the ice thing is real….if you are cold adpated. And apparently the Wim Hoff trainee experience shows that it does not take all that much to do so. Is cold adaptation a metabolic trap door to epigenetic reversal of obesity and insulin resistance? Has out brain so outraced our biology that we have neolithic diseases?
I just cannot waive this shit off with my hand.
Ive embraced sauna culture……you sweat, you get hot as hell….it can feel great and perhaps heat shock therapy is a proven and time vetted process. I just cannot tolerate the shock of ice baths, compression shirts, -200F cryotanks…..not even a cold shower.
I must say I’m skeptical.
I was into it big time, back then, same time, and chatting with Jack. I like him, have met him in person (AHS11), BUT, I had already built myself up to 45 deg water 2-3 times per week for 15 minutes up to the neck with a head plunge every minute.
It’s true that it’s no longer torture and you can adapt to where it’s pleasurable. I did this for two years straight, did not get magically ripped, and there is not one single advantage I can point to other than to understand I can adapt to extreme discomfort.
Did something go on at a cellular or mito level nobody understands and I staved off cancer or something?
Who knows?
More recently, I lived off grid and got myself sub-clinical hypothermic by living 24/7 in sub 40-deg air temps. You start peeing for no apparent reason, all the time.
Then, last winter, I’m up in my mountain home where at a point, it never gets above 50 for months and I spend lots of time outside.
But, who knows? I do know that I can embrace it and deal with it.
Who knows?……….Probably very few if any.
However, we evolved in stressful and volatile environments. Narrow comfort zones are generally unhealthy, or if you like promotes fragility and probably impedes the capabilities of our molecular machinery to function or meet unpredictable stressors. The brain that contrived all of which contributes to this predicament is just as capable of extricating…….should we wake up.
Interventions, not necessarily extreme, may have real beneficial effects. Really simple shit like enhancing sleep, getting brief but reasonably intense workouts (splitting logs did me in), aligning activity and food consumption with light/dark cycles, environmental exposure (cold, heat), real food, and maybe a little IF….. could take a person a long way. I might add….avoid artificial hazards ( freeways even without accidents will get you one way or another as example) or too much staring at a screen. Oh yeah……try 15 minutes in a sauna x2 per week.
Living in Arnold sounds pretty good as balance between artificial and natural( even though still California) Living off grid in Mexico…..fuck that.
Win hof makes a statement about human limits……it’s entertaining and instructive. But being Wim is unnecessary. Reminds me of The Who opera tommy…..all the people wearing blinders and earplugs to play pinballs. Of course I had taken mushrooms standing in line to see the movie…..no wonder it got to me.
I agree Tim. It’s jump on the bandwagon and make a buck B.S.
Hap,
because I don’t mind trying a little bio hacking if it is cheap, I bought an ice vest. basically a cool fat burner and a cool gut buster were the brands. Any how, whether or not it does any of the things jack kruze says, you can increase your resistance to cold (the gut portion has gone from un bearable to…chilly.). I actually enjoy wearing the vest for an hour as i watch tv before bed. it makes me very very relaxed. I think I am addicted to it. I am trying to cut weight still and is it helping or not, I don’t know for sure, as I am doing lots of other strategies but its worth a try if youare interested in cold therapy. My tap water does not get cold enough this time of year for cold showers, and this is easieer than filling the tub with ice.
I do enjoy the hot sauna too, this is just something totally differnt. If I only very slightly increase brown fat it will be a bonus.
ramon
Ramon
The cold exposure stimulates all sorts of adaptive metabolic responses, that is if you can reduce your core temperature a bit. There are cold shock proteins just like their are heat shock proteins, there are connections to certain environmental rhythms, noradrenaline is released like crazy and many other beneficial outcomes (like UCP 1,3 upregulation). The weight loss, while maybe not all it’s cracked up to be, is far “outweighed ” by many and wide ranging metabolic adaptations.
Kruse is a master at weaving factoids and scientific jargon into a semicoherent narrative.
I haven’t yet seen an article showing the results of PET scans before and after some prolonged cold therapy, with regard to BAT
The cool fat burner guy has n=1 lab test on his site where he supposedly increases adiponectin levels by wearing the cold vest. I got sick of Kruse after one podcast (ancient pathways whatever). Cool fat burner guy claims he has proof it activates BAT too. I;m willing to try.
I am a big skeptic, but I sure do like the vest. it definitely lowers my core temperature after an hour. I can’t touch my wife because my hands are so cold (she does in fact let me touch her at other times ;-). Makes me feel good, maybe dopamine. but its cheap versus the new cryotherapy fad.
cheers
I would never tell a patient that a ketogenic diet and entering the Seyfried ketone/glucose zone was a cure for cancer…or to abandon other conventional therapies, especially if they had metastatic disease.
Sisson is great. The world needs more people like him.
what do you use for fat skimming
Just one of those quart size plastic pitchers with the spout coming up from the bottom, since the fat rises to the top.
Do you have a picture of said pitcher
Yep. Here.
Looks like high fat bong water in a high tech smoking device to me.
I have found “The Obesity Code” by Dr. Jason Fung to be a remarkable treatise on weight. His blog
and corresponding website offers ongoing information. If someone is overweight the heart and other organs still suffer, regardless of lab results. The coroner will still pronounce you “dead”.
Paleo/Primal/Etc first came onto my radar in 2010. I read a lot about it rather avidly for 3 or 4 years, but have sort of tuned-out for the last couple of years. Jimmy is STILL overweight?? In what world does an “expert” in a diet/lifestyle field still not personally reflect what he ‘preaches’?! Seriously. Who is following him…and why? Am I missing something?
And I remember you from way back too, Wilberfan.
JM is more popular that ever. That’s why I do this. Crazy, crazy world. Much true-believerism, as well as simply being told what you want to hear, that so long as you keep carbs almost non-existent, protein low, and fat ultra high, you can eat as much as you want (“satiety,” in their parlance).
I’ll grant him this.
You get to eat as much as you want of something you grow to hate.
Sayonara omnivore.
https://www.outsideonline.com/1784041/why-do-cold-temperatures-make-me-pee
This is a well documented but not well understood phenomenon.
Finaly keto sanity.
Except for low fat carb re-feeds to power bike rides I do pretty much what Mark describes. I’ve lost over 30 pounds since christmas (20 of them in June July using cronometer and keeping a 500-600 calorie deficit).
ramon
Mark picked that fight brilliantly, by name dropping Phinney and Volek up front and discrediting their bullshit.
You can tell Mark has been annoyed at this for a while, and finally taking JM to task over it.
Just got through it all. Hee-larious.
“I would suggest that you’re not” [fasting daily]. Hahahahaha. Just LOL’ing the whole car ride.
You could hear JM’s voice change as he swallowed the pill. He clearly lives in sheltered safe spaces and doesn’t endure confrontation very often.
Holy fuck, I’d forgotten how much I hate listening to JM. All the self-deprecating laughs and pleas for affirmation. He’s such a dumb, shit kicking hick.
With that said, I do have to give the man some credit. He easily could have edited that conversation down and skipped much of the criticism. Doubt Mark would have said a word. I don’t think JM’s quite the shyster people think he is. He’s just dumb.
Great stuff, Richard. You may yet unravel this sinister webpire. Question, though: now that you’ve seen the light on Jimmy, have you reconciled with Evelyn Kocur and Melissa McEwen? I ask this because I truly believe that at least one of the reasons for his irrational popularity is the noted lack of solidarity among his critics. (And I’m also curious because I well remember how heated all those battles got back in the day…)
I have been cordial to Evelyn in a 3rd party sort of way. Not reciprocated as far as I can tell, and I do not grovel, as you well know. As for Mc, no idea what she’s up to, but I don’t hold grudges.
Jimmy encourages consumption of “Fat Bombs” to facilitate and maintain ketosis. The real definition of a “Fat Bomb”? One who has gained 10% from their starting weight after commencing the Jimmy Moore Keto Diet. Congratulations JM sheep.
http://www.stephanguyenet.com/where-the-praties-grow-my-seven-day-potato-diet-experiment/
Where the praties grow: My seven-day potato diet experiment
Posted on October 3, 2017 by Stephan Guyenet
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