Is Intermittent Hunger The Most Profound Paleo Shortcut Ever?
Michael Mosley really grew on me as I watched his documentary about fasting yesterday. It was a steer courtesy of a commenter on my recent fasting post.
Here’s what’s covered in pretty decent depth:
- CRONies (caloric restriction with optimal nutrition)
- Fasting periodically for four days
- Alternate day fasting
- Intermittent fasting for 2 days per week (5/2)
Also very important in this documentary is that while plain metabolic markers are definitely part of what’s being looked at, the biggie is IGF-1, the thing essential for making us grow from infants to adults, but then, high levels can be associated with various cancer and other bad stuff (yin yang).
The punchline is that Dr. Mosley achieved all needed benefits in terms of metabolic markers and a profound lowering of IGF-1 using the 5/2 method. That’s five days of eating whatever the hell you want, as much as you want, and 2 days of only 600 calories.
Eat, Fast & Live Longer HD by limoslight
Now, I’m a bit of a fasting purist and it annoys me when there’s calories taken in, and 600 seems like a lot for a fast. OTOH, five solid weeks at it and his numbers were his numbers, and he lost 14 pounds.
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Have you watched Mosley’s documentary on exercise? It’s very good and confirms the advantages of high intensity, short duration workouts.
Not yet, Jed, but I saw it as part of his series so that’s next. Way cool dude, in my opinion.
You’ll enjoy it; it jives with our philosophy at EE and other places.
As loathe as I am to give a shout out to organized religion, monks around the world who tend to fast 100+ days a year, seem to have gotten the whole denial/taking a break thing down and perhaps intuitively realized this was a good thing.
I’m a bit torn about IF for myself (I won’t say for all women – you do you, please). Apart from what I understand is a dearth of research on how it affects women, a close friend who has long been a devotee of IF has recently found, at age 51, that she has only traces of hormones in her bloodstream. (She actually works for a small group of fitness centers in NYC and CT that include doctors and blood work in their fitness assessments of clients.) When they ran her blood work, she was almost totally lacking estrogen, testosterone…everything. Their hypothesis right now is that IF fucked with her over the long term, even though she lost weight and kept it off for several years (recently regained 30 pounds, despite maintaining IF regime). I’d love to see more research on how it affects those of us with two X-chromosomes, as it is certainly effective for short-term weight loss.
What was she doing for IF?
I don’t know all the details of her program. I can ask her. Her position is that everyone is different and everyone has to do what works for them. I’m definitely intrigued to find out how her hormone levels change as she transitions out of IF.
Jackie:
One thing I worry about IF for women is that it sometimes evolves into a chronic, quasi anorexia deal, i.e., chronic under eating. So, like caloric restriction, but without the attention to Optimal Nutrition.
So, I tell people, make sure to overeat a bit on the non-fast days. Paleoish should be able to nail it by eating to the high side of nutrition rather than low side (grains).
Hmm. I can definitely see how some people would go all orthorexic with IF.
Another friend has been doing 5:2 and daily yoga for the past three years and reports that she feels younger now than she did a decade ago (she is 42).
A diet I found extremely effective, which I suppose is a form of IF, was the Rotation Diet from the 1970s (I believe). You do a few days at 300 calories, then a few at 600, then a few at 900. Then you eat “normally” for a week and repeat the cycle. What I found was that the 300 calorie days were a struggle, 600 not so bad, and 900 seemed like an embarrassment of riches – to the point where I would struggle to ‘spend’ them all. For me, and others like me (men and women alike), eating “normally” is a danger zone because it’s way too broad a boulevard – and a slippery one at that. This isn’t dissimilar from the Dukan Diet, which I also had success with (apart from the crippling, truly horrific constipation).
Some of us will always struggle with what “normal” eating should be for us, and which foods pull us off the straight and narrow. For me, I bought a bunch of Lara Bars last week because they were on sale for 99 cents. Not a coincidence that I would up eating more calories last week, and going off my Paleoish routine more frequently.
Some days I eat whatever I want want. Some days I go deep calorie restriction. Some days I skip lunch and eat a massive dinner. 16/8 (leangains) is my typical 7 day a week schedule, or 14/10, or 20/4, etc.
Currently I’m 5’10” 170 lbs. I’ve maintained weight within 10 pounds over 5 years (162-172), haven’t counted calories in the past 3 (only counted for 4 months of those 5 years), and somewhat regularly eat large pizzas (like once every week or two, sometimes more often).
I was eating ice cream pretty regularly after workouts (ice cream is an addictive habit). Since trying a personal experiment with daily honey and maple syrup I haven’t wanted anything else sweet; I had ice cream for the first time in several months last night.
I feel best, look best, and have the best workouts with “cheat food” in my diet, and when I think of it as “yeah eating pizza tonight food” instead of something forbidden and evil.
10 years ago I tried Body for Life; it called for a cheat day as a sort of metabolic reset. I ate so much food on that cheat day that I’d feel full the entire next day. I was taking in 6-10k Calories that one day a week. I have repeatedly read that cheat days can erase a weeks worth of calorie deficit if taken to the extreme. Well when I dropped below 145 pounds and all my family members asked if I was getting sick because my face looked so thin I figured maybe the “metabolic reset” idea was more accurate than the “erase deficit in a day” idea.
Body for Life is basically the opposite of IF, though I was always hungry, feeling like I was in permanent fasting.
I lost 150+ pounds in 2002/2003 with a weekly cheat day. But I am 6′ and had a LOT to lose (obviously). I think it would have come off easily no matter what, as long as I was doing SOMETHING. (I walked for 15-25 minutes every day, first thing. Ate mostly whole foods, but plenty of processed stuff too – think sweetened, sugar-free yogurts and such.) My cheat day included vast quantities of alcohol.
I haven’t had a drink for almost eight years and wouldn’t do a cheat day now. My experience has been that when I try to do a “day off” with food or any healthy habit, I struggle to get back on the bean. Yes, this is my all-or-nothing perspective in part, and I’m my own worst enemy here. But I just want to make it as easy as possible for me, which means no cheat day. I’m definitely an abstainer, not a moderator. Jealous of those who can be moderate!
Jackie, we apparently have a lot in common. I’m the same way and am still struggling to find moderation even after five decades being in the world. Food is now my bete noir but it used to be alcohol and various illicit substances. All in vast quantities.
Good on you for losing all that weight and keeping it off! :thumbsup: And good luck with your quest for moderation!
I’ve never had a drink so I’ve got to get all my quasi-addictive caloric intake through food :)
An N=1, no doc has been able to explain. I’m lean, stable weight since teenager, exercise, healthy relationship with food.
Did Leangains IF 16/8 and often 18/8 for a year, loved the freedom from dependency on regular food intake. Did a lipid profile, my LDL had skyrocketed (232), every doc recommended statins asap despite a ridiculously high HDL. Instead I gave up IF, LDL returned to normal in 6 weeks. Anybody else have that experience?
Should add, I’m female, so on point with differential effects of IF for women vs men.
I think daily fasting is way too chronic. Perhaps stress increases LDL.
18/8 = 26 hours so your circadian rhythm would have been toast.
Typo – meant 18/6.
If it was 1 test panel it could have been an error.
Some experience a transient increase in LDL and HDL during fasting. Supposedly the ldl increase is the “large fluffy” type which is not harmful if you believe in that theory. If you like IF, try again and retest.
Yes, the permeability factor is important. Having said that, particle size on LDL is < or = to 25 nm. The endothelial junction is about 75nm – straight diffusion on the basis of gradients explains it well. Inflammation occurs once that oxidized LDL is in the subendothelial space. Excellent site to understand lipids – my favorite lipidologist – Dr. Tom Dayspring –
Cholesterol is in fact deposited under the skin in people with elevated numbers – the deposit is called a xantholasma.
Glad to engage with an interested party!
Good thought, I did retest 3 times, once in a private research lab – same each time. Funny you should say that about fasting, cuz the lipidologists I saw did not think that the IF should have anything to with it. Out of curiosity, I repeated the lipid profile 4 hours after the standard overnight fast sample, so I had 2 results 4 hours apart, with ongoing fasting in between. The second LDL was so high even I was tempted to start treatment! Do you have any scientific articles reviewing this phenomenon? I didn’t find much with my search. I’m trying to figure out why/how that would happen physiologically. Thanks for your help.
ps – I don’t buy the large fluffy theory – particle number is what drives the migration into your arterial wall.
I’m not convinced either of those explanations is sufficient. They both seem facile and unlikely.
On the particle number, I remember Dwight Lundell pointing out in an interview that if it were a simple numbers game involving a gradient across a semi-permeable membrane, then cholesterol would also be deposited elsewhere, such as under the skin. He suggested instead that the deposits occur only after the endothelium suffers damage and inflammation. This explanation seems reasonable, but it is really just as speculative as any other.
The data on this cholesterol stuff is tremendously complicated, overlapping, and contradictory. Correlation and causation are very often conflated. I don’t think we understand enough about how it all works to draw any confident conclusion.
Yea, and what always seemed suspicious to me is all the HFLC folks huck hucking super high cholesterol numbers away with the particle size explanation, ignoring particle number.
It makes more sense that it’s mutifactoral. You don’t want chronic inflammation nor unreasonably high cholesterol. That said, the conventional guidelines seem to be more about selling statins and when dietary changes are advised, it’s about lowering particle numbers, ignoring systemic inflammation.
A big mess, all in all.
Newbie,
You may be a very efficient fat burner, some experience elevated ldl during weight loss.
Agree on the large fluffy theory, in addition to particle #, I believe that apoB/apoA-I ratio is also an important indicator.
check out:
sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/04/110403090259.htm
pubfacts.com/fulltext/24522324
Omitted that the 2 links point to studies on transient increase in LDL during fasting
@rob
IF raises LDL? interesting. thanks
The very only thing I recall is some Masterjohn piece way back that said LDL elevation should be expected if one is losing weight/fat.
Can’t recall the details. Sorry. Human card.
Rob – interesting links – my thoughts….
First one, comment by Dr. Horne not scientifically accurate – “Fasting causes hunger or stress. In response, the body releases more cholesterol, allowing it to utilize fat as a source of fuel, instead of glucose. This decreases the number of fat cells in the body,” says Dr. Horne….
SO….cholesterol is NOT a body fuel, triacylglycerol(trigs) is our fuel source as they release fatty acids. So, either the liver is making more VLDLs to deliver trigs to the tissues and thereby providing those cells with FFAs, or the adipocytes are releasing those trigs and you’ll reduce your fat stores. Either way, blood cholesterol is not involved as a fuel source. Dr. Horne is being liberal with his words, and leading to confusion. I tried to find the original research paper, no luck – do you have a link to it?
BTW – not trying to lose weight with this, nor did I. The goal was improved health parameters – you know, autophagy and the whole deal with less cancer.
Second link – refers to obese youth during Ramadan -and the return of their LDL to normal afterwards. The issue with IF, if done continually, with perpetual elevation of LDL – is it doing harm, in the context of IF??? Maybe as Richard had suggested, the stress of daily 16/8 or 18/6 IF for a year is not a good thing.
That apoB/apoA1 is a great marker – you need to access lipoprotein testing, not a lipid panel – a ratio of you LDL particles to your HDL particles. A lot of other interesting info in those panels when you drill down.
Again, thanks for engaging – I do enjoy the back and forth.
Very interesting site, newb. Although what’s with the registration required to read the articles? That’s kind of weird.
I’m still skeptical of the numbers game, although much less so now that you have quantified the LDL vs. the endothelial junction. My next questions would be: Does a “normal” cholesterol level still result in subendothelial deposits, but less? Or does it not occur at all without an abnormally large particle count? Also, does the body appear to have any disposal mechanisms to rid the endothelium of deposits after they accumulate?
Okay, so now you ask interesting questions.
No problem with the registration– I think they just want to know who’s on their site.
The majority of heart attacks occur in people with normal LDL levels. The majority of heart attacks occur in vessels with a subcritical stenosis (<70%) and subsequent rupture of that plaque to occlude the vessel. So, yes, normal LDL-C (the number that you get in the lipid panel) is not reassurance. The particle count , known as LDL-P (or apoB) is in direct correlation with the event rate.
The body does have a mechanism to clean up the arterial wall -called macrophage reverse cholesterol transport – delipidating plaque – by giving that cholesterol to HDL particle, which then dumps the lipid (into the liver) in a process called direct reverse cholesterol transport. The educational link is …
.
You can drown on the wealth of information on this site – you won't surface for days!!
Newbie – hard drive failure lost the full article and have not been able to regain. My view is there are few IF studies most around Ramadan and as such are subject to much creative interpretation.
Your experience is interesting, (disclaimer: not a doctor, not even an internet doctor), maybe no IF for you.
If you haven’t done a hdl advanced test might be worth it. Also include the apoe test.
Bret,
The real key to deposits is apoB. It allows the bad stuff to enter the artery wall and form plaque. You want a low apoB.
Even if your cholesterol is “normal” but is comprised of high ldl and a high ldl particle count you can still get plaque. And yes reversal can occur with improved lipoprotein profiles.
(disclaimer: not a doctor, not even an internet doctor)
So how that that compare to:
– multiple small meals per day (not to be confused with 3 big plus multiples small per day),
– fat in the morning / carbs at night,
– adaptive – measure your numbers plus include hunger/intuitive stuff; based on that decide on your meal?
I watched the documentary this afternoon. Very interesting. I generally don’t eat until about 11 am or earlier if I feel hungry. Then dinner around 6 pm. So that kind of puts me in the IF camp anyway. 66 yo woman Paleoish since 2012, added RPS last January and potatoes and rice as I was too LC and probiotics. Feel great but I might try this to shake things up a bit. Mosley has a book: the FastDiet. I just picked it up at my library. Your blog is soooooo interesting now. Many of the other paleo sites have started to bore me some but appreciate what they do and have done for me.
Wow you found a 2 year+ old documentary, did relatively no research, and decided to try to make it newsworthy. Are you aware to truly reduce your IGF-1 you need to skip on the protein to a large degree? Simply IFing once in a while isn’t going to do it…
Yea, I know, huh? 2 years, can’t possibly anything relevant.
Actually, I’ve blogged much since way back in 2007 about fasting. Probably several dozen posts in all. You’re welcome to try out the search function. I’ve also read all of the research Brad Pilon has assembled over the years. And yes as well, I’m well aware of the connection of protein to IGF-1. I also know you’re wrong. Fasting 2 days per week brings IGF-1 way down regardless of what’s eaten on feed days.
Now, go fuck off.
Oh, and BTW fucktard, the protein connection was dealt with in the documentary, demonstrating that it’s you not doing any research. Piss off, fuckface.
And by the by-way, if you did ‘relatively some research,’ you might find I’m the guy who popularized the idea of working out fasted, and particularly at the end of a fast (back in 2008).
Wanna guess what happens to blood glucose when it’s in the 80s after being fasted for 28 hours, and what it is after a workout of heavy weight lifting at that time? Brad Pilon, I, and others got the exact same results: it elevates to around 110ish or so.
Charles has to be one of the most annoying little trolls in the blogosphere. The Woo banned him from her site so now I guess he’s here to annoy the fuck out of this audience. You live such a sad pathetic life. Almost worse than the fearmongering master John Brisson.
Richard – need a little help if you can. Did leangains 16/8 for about 3 years solid, but now do the occasional fast 1 or 2 times a week. Since adding beans to my diet for breakfast, I am becoming hungry to the point of ravenous. Eating a bowl of beans for breakfast (with eggs & mushrooms) leaves me agonizingly hungry by 10am, something I haven’t had to deal with in years. I’ve done IF enough to be pretty much immune to all but the most urgent hunger pangs, and these are all-consuming, can’t think about anything else. Thoughts?
Not sure if you’ve seen this. It applies to me but not sure if beans are to blame or not.
I had completely forgotten about that! Read that several years ago after starting Leangains. I did it 7 days a week for almost 3 years, and only recently started breakfast again. I’ll run a few days in a row without breakfast and see how I feel.
The link posted by Austin is TL;DR for me, so I don’t know if I am saying anything different.
I used to have hypoglycemia. What you experience with beans is what I used to experience for decades – an early breakfast of carbs (beans, oatmeal, breads, cereals, fruits, etc.) would make me ravenous about two hours later. My “management” was skipping breakfast. In discussions with doctors, it was stated that my insulin was overshooting relative to the amount of sugar (hyperinsulimia). This had nothing to do with being fat, lean, toned, etc.
I also had reactive hypoglycemia.
It all went away when I started working on my gut health. I do frequently eat beans for breakfast -in fact, I eat breakfast nearly every day now – along with other things that would trigger the problems before. I’m just mentioning in case it helps.
This crazy hunger after breakfast is a new phenomenon for me, in part I think because I’ve gone so long without ever eating breakfast. Might just be the sympathetic nervous system, but could be cortisol as Martin Berkhan says.
I appreciate the words about better gut health possibly helping it. I was diagnosed with celiac in ’07 along with leukemia. The daily leukemia meds probably wreak havoc on my flora. About 2 weeks ago I started all 3 of the dirt pills recommended on this site along with plantain starch. Hopefully they can combat what the meds are doing and promote a better environment.
Hegemon, I have had a similar experience with breakfast beans seeming to provoke a bigger appetite. I still eat them regularly at breakfast, but only about 1/2 cup cooked. I usually saute them in a little bacon drippings and throw them into a two- or three-egg omlette. I don’t seem to get ravenous eating them in that quantity and context.
If I eat any breakfast (around 7:30 am), I won’t eat until I am back home around 17:30. Maybe an occasional banana or apple around 13:00 but that’s just because I like to be social with colleagues. In summer time, I usually work out during lunch time. In winter time, I hit the gym after work 2/3 times a week and I bike 16-17km from work to home. Then I eat dinner. This year, I am trying to toughen up on the commuting: I bike regardless of the weather. That’s not as easy as it sounds …
Anyway, hunger pangs may have something to do with gut flora. i never experience these pangs myself. I actually leaned some more after adding a quasi-daily breakfast, it makes my dinners not as big as they used to be :)
For me, of all the the things I tried out over the years to achieve better health, intermittent fasting without much doubt had the strongest impact. And it works fast too, and saves your money. If I haven’t done I.F. for a while and start again I can usualy feel its positive effects the same day already (I just dont eat all day until diner for a couple of days in a row). It’s as if my body is relieved to not have to digest anything and gets to do stuff it can’t do as well when it is busy digesting. From a paleo perspective I’d say being a bit hungry now and than is what has always been normal throughout our distant past and hence is expected. I think we focus too much on food, making “no food” an underestimated part of paleo and human eating habits in general.
I found the 2 day diet, through a commenter on critcalmas site, here is a link to a video on it, looks really good as alternative to fasting for women, just restriction for 2 consecutive days per week, moderate fat and protein, low carb :
youtube.com/watch?v=FMg-uAQEGaI
During the week I live and work away from home and find it easier to eat dinner only. I cook my own food and the meals are big with random mixes of meats, veggies, grasses and ground provisions (sweet potatoes, yams, cassavas).
On weekends, back at home, homemade foods/treats are always on tap. Although no one eats breakfast before noon where my 11yr old son, wife and I would get in a high intensity workout before then.
I still can’t see the six pack after years of this but measured fat levels are below 10% so “wot me worry”.
I swear by IF for proper health. Without clinical results to refer to, I assume inflammation levels throughout my body are quite low. I never catch colds and my lifelong asthma is in total remission. Each year my response to hay fever season is improving. I have not had to take anti-histamines for three years now but I still got irritable eyes. The list of personal health improvements I have witnessed since practising Paleo, IF and HIT is long.
I think the major positive has been that I now have strong faith in my body to repair itself. That has given me a lot of peace of mind. When something goes awry, I just think it’s a matter of time before it’s reset.
And of course, one day it won’t.
Hey hope this doesn’t come off as pedantic assholery because I am basically just ignoring most of your post to address my own annoyance of how often people underestimate their BF% to point I want to pulverize their face with a sledgehammer, sorry pat batman moment.
Anyway if you’re below 10% body fat and can’t see abs, well you’re very likely not that low even if whatever machine you used says that. But like you said, why worry if your feeling good and looking good. I practice IF too, 20/4 (sometimes 22/2) most days and it is THE only way I can create a calorie deficit with a diet of partly junky food which is how I like it: first meal it’s burger and fries then second meal chicken and potatoes. I actually used to be a fatty too and I only got that bottomless pit stomach AFTER I dieted down to scary low body fat. IF lets me go to bed full as fuck and still lose fat.
Ha, RobertJ
One of the things that always irritated my about DeVany was his constant assertion that he’s 7% body fat. He didn’t have abs.
No way.
I think visible abs are a kinda genetic thing, like big tits. I never had visible abs, even at 7-10 years old and a stick. I store body fat preferentially subcutaneously, on my tummy.
Yeah definitely different for everyone. I was sub 10% for a while. Well defined upper abs, veins on lower abdomen quite pronounced (like veins on arms pronounced), yet still had some fat hanging on around the belly button area. It was like those abdominal veins led up to an area of permanent un-leanness. Permanent 4 pack.
I considered the MB/Lyle yohimbe suggestion for stubborn fat, but the stuff kind of scared me so I never followed through.
I was always skinny but never had abs. Got about 40 pounds overweight and started IF and eating better. Haven’t measured body fat, but six pack with striations in midsection, shoulders, etc – probably single digit. I too now have a bottomless pit – I eat big meals, but always fresh produce, meat, etc, never junk food or fast food.
The thing that gets me with all that is someone will look at me and say I was just born with it. Or my favorite response, “If I ate like you, I’d weigh 300 pounds.” I really want to reply that eating bird portions of fast food shit certainly isn’t working for them, but I’m too nice. I need Richard to follow me around and say what I can’t.
RobertJ,
It might be the measurement is incorrect but it’s truly a case of “so what?!”
I mentioned the abs to point out the idea of weight lose being the primary intention of using IF. I do agree with that perspective. Overall health and well being are much more important.
I started out Jonesing about a six pack and used to get confused whenever I saw pix of HGs where some will have, some won’t. I even tried to rationalise it away by thinking the fat on the belly was a sign of privilege. Now I’m not so sure.
To me there is a difference between IF and caloric restriction. Without the long hours to trigger autophagy, I might be losing weight but necessarily achieving repair.
If repair is the purpose then avoiding Frankenfoods at all times makes sense.
Well, in any case, I don’t think its all that normal for 7-10 year olds to have to visible abs, even if they’re very skinny. My guess is that abs tend to show up a couple years in to puberty if all the relevant factors line up accordingly.
Fair enough Tyler, but in HS I weighed about 150 or so on 5’10, and I have wide shoulders, mesomorph type. Still no abs, but just a bit of sub-cute on the tummy still. Oh well. My calves and feet are fucking shredded, though. :)
I have been using IF since 2002, long before it became popular (except for Ori Hoefmeckler).
What works for me is M-F, 21/3. Weekends I back off and eat when I feel like. During the 21,
water and coffee only.
M-F I try to eat very strict. Potatoes, beans, nuts,dairy products, eggs and veggies being my staples. I’m not a vegetarian, just not eating much meat right now.
Even with eating the one large meal at night – I still poop 2 or 3 times the next day. So the prebiotic fiber intake is high.
I’m 60 years old, feel really good and have kept my muscle mass from 20 years ago (at least that’s what the mirror says).
I started experimenting with IF around the start of the year (2015). It started unconsciously – I like to take a fitness class at my gym and my morning schedule was crunched for time and I didn’t have breakfast one day before the class, but forced myself through it anyway. FELT SUPER! And, my appetite was suppressed for hours afterword. I ate because it was a tough workout and I figured my muscles needed the protein, but I wasn’t really hungry. I didn’t get hungry until dinner time, ate, then no more food all night.
Woke up next morning hungry but not ravenous or I-will-kill-you-to-eat. So I take this class twice a week, always in the a.m., and decided to do it fasted each and every time since that first skipped breakfast (Jan 5). Always feel good, energized, never very hungry afterwards though I eat a small meal, and feel like I have good appetite control all day.
I eat LC, not keto levels or anything I just don’t have the best carb metabolism and too many of them tend to turn on my cravings/binge cycle. This kind of ad hoc IF’ing I do, twice a week, is awesome. I’m down 7 lbs. since Jan 1 and feel like I can control my food intake.
IF has been around for a while, although it appears now that the science is there to back it up rather than it being a “left field” healing modality. I actually did 5:2 for a couple of years in the early 90’s, although I wouldn’t have called it that and I didn’t tell people what I was doing because I would get lectured on the dangers of not eating. Thank gawd for these here modern interwebz and the support they give us!
During that time I lost 25lb pounds of booze weight with no effort at all, and in fact didn’t evenr ealize it until I went clothes shopping one day and everything I tried on first was way too big. Good times. I’ve tried IF sporadically since, but I have a hard time with it, I think maybe because of burgeoning blood sugar issues.
Anyway, I’m fixing to give IF another go. Pardon if this is a repeater question and I haven’t come across it although I’ve read a lot of this blog so far: are there any known or anecdotal drawbacks to fasting while doing potato starch?
Richard I don’t think eating 600 calories on fasting days is excessive. While I agree that if you’re fasting you might as well do it properly, but considering you’re also constantly digesting mucus/dead cells from your mouth to your digestive tract you’re always digesting some calories. I think autophagy is more about protein turnover (i.e. low protein triggers autophagy), and less about absolute calories per sé, with carbohydrates reducing autophagy more than fats.
Amy: I wouldn’t do potato starch while fasting. One of the benefits of fasting is that it also restores any potential gut overgrowths. Adding in solely potato starch also heavily selects for certain strains of bacteria/yeasts, and starves others (goes for any prebiotic fiber really), creating an imbalance.
I agree, Palva, and yes, fast the gut bacteria too.
Sometimes, when I was doing lots of fasting in the 2008/9 timeframe, I’d have drinks with friends (spirits, not beer) during a fast and it didn’t seem to make any difference in terms of weight loss and all the other benefits seemed intact.
i used to listen to Jimmy Moore occasionally.
one guest was an MD (specialist on brain cancer) who advocates to fast 5-7 days once year. like 500 calories/day (cause he said otherwise it was too difficult for most)
(i do 16 hr/day, PHD style)
happy fasting,
“one guest was an MD (specialist on brain cancer) who advocates to fast 5-7 days once year.”
On one hand this gives you a regeneration of immune system from stem cells.
telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10878625/Fasting-for-three-days-can-regenerate-entire-immune-system-stud…
On the other hand – depletion of of stem cells is one of the reasons for death whey a person is very old – like 100. So doing it too frequently might speed it up.
newscientist.com/article/dn25458-blood-of-worlds-oldest-woman-hints-at-limits-of-life.html
“”It’s estimated that we’re born with around 20,000 blood stem cells, and at any one time, around 1000 are simultaneously active to replenish blood,” says Holstege. During life, the number of active stem cells shrinks, she says, and their telomeres shorten to the point at which they die – a point called stem-cell exhaustion. ”
“In van Andel-Schipper’s case, it seemed that in the twilight of her life, about two-thirds of the white blood cells remaining in her body at death originated from just two stem cells, implying that most or all of the blood stem cells she started life with had already burned out and died.”
2 stem cells? incredible.
This last summer I did three months in the Middle East and became the thinnest I have ever been as an adult (6’0″ and 158 lbs).
Every day I ate eggs, meat, salad, fruit, white rice, and potatoes. Ice cream or some other dessert about every other day — despite my previous VLC dogma swoon, this proved to me conclusively that eating some artificially low quantity of carbs was absolutely unnecessary for weight loss. Lots of coffee. Based on my work/sleep schedule, most days I had two slightly larger than normal meals instead of three, and occasionally I would miss one of these two. I did three or four 24-hr fasts, having just read PHD for the first time.
I consumed not a single drop of alcohol during those three months. Also smoked cigarettes (decent cure for boredom, but not something I ever intend to do again).
I walked 2-3 brisk miles/day on average, and did moderate exercise semiweekly, like running, pullups, planks, etc.
Now, nearly five months after returning, I have puffed back up to 172 lbs. Typically, I have three meals a day and a drink or two most nights. I exercise between once and four times a week, depending on schedule. Fast maybe once every four weeks for about 24 hrs.
A lot of confounding variables there, but at the end of the day, I think the calorie deficit made the biggest impact. A colleague on the deployment dropped almost 40 lbs just by working out regularly and being away from constant creature comfort snack foods and beer. 10 years ago, I went through a four-week “boot camp” type of military training, and had the same weight loss results…as one might imagine, food was scarce, and strenuous exercise was frequent. It’s the calories, stupid.
I still read blog posts elsewhere insisting that calories cannot be the significant factor underlying weight control. I will grant that my experience was only my experience, but still, I think the biggest barrier for most people is simply a cultural/psychological one. In a life where food is endlessly present, exercise is marginalized, and chairs are occupied all day and evening, weight loss will be tremendously difficult for most people. Occam’s razor points to this, not carbs or fat or anything else.
I like to fast to stimulate autophagy and to rebuild character, both physiological and psychological, when I get too dependent on food. In fact, being inexplicably ravenous is typically what reminds me to do a fast. The internal monologue is something like, “You’re getting too preoccupied with food, pussy boy. Your ancestors went without sometimes…now it’s your turn.”
Also, on the CICO front, I suspect CO played a bigger role than CI. While food intake was reduced a bit, I doubt that simply cutting food intake while remaining sedentary would have gotten it done. I think this goes beyond simple calorie bank account arithmetic. In my experience, that frequent walking kept me busy and distracted me from wanting to eat all the time.
I’m sure that can be attributed more to psychological mechanisms than physiological, but in any case, it’s something I wanted to clarify. Whatever the reason, I have never succeeded in cutting weight by resolving to eat less while being sedentary. It was more like remembering not to overeat, while doing plenty of moderate movement — walking, climbing, and body weight resistance…not running 6 miles at a time and other chronic cardio stress.
Word on all of this, Bret.
And true, per your implication, it’s move more eat less, not the other way around. Lots of eating stems from inactivity and boredom–probably why smokers are leaner on average than non, they have an outlet other than food.
Also, liquid calories in the form of booze is a huge factor. I’ve done it myself and seen it in others, knocking out booze entirely with no other changes is good for 15 pounds in the first month.
Would you believe it’s taken me until now to come to that conclusion? Seems so simple in hindsight, but then again it isn’t hard to see how it eludes people in the sea of intuitively tempting/fancily articulated bullshit out there.
At first I thought it would be too difficult for chronic cubicle occupants to implement this advice, but I realize that’s nonsense the more I think about it. People can get up 30 minutes earlier and go for a walk before work. They can take a walk at lunch and spend 10 minutes eating leftovers, instead of going to a restaurant or BSing around the office for an hour or more. They can exercise lightly to moderately when they get home in the evening. They can do this at a gym, schedule permitting. Any combination of the above in any number would do most overweight people a lot of good. They just have to understand how it all works, and they have to want it enough to make it happen.
Of course it goes without saying that they simply must avoid the vending machines and any other frequently available form of snacking.
Between the cultural norms, the misinformation, the short-lived motivation, and the modern western abundance, most people are swimming against a strong current. Not to give them an excuse, just saying it is totally understandably why so many people manage to become obese and never escape it.
In reference to body fat, not sure if this is accurate, but somewhat interesting nonetheless:
builtlean.com/2012/09/24/body-fat-percentage-men-women/
I don’t eat any prebiotics fibers because I have Reactive Arthritis and I get joint pain when I do. When I fast I feel like shit. Should I still try it?
Fred:
Humans always fed the gut. That’s why it’s there. Occam’s Razor, the gut does not induce reactive arthritis.
Starving the gut could, seems to me. Feeding the gut again may make residents in the tenements very angry.
You’re on you own. Sorry, but dealing with outlier stuff is not my forte.
This speaks to something interesting at the intersection of two of Stephen’s recent posts (links below).
IF seems like a great way to get the benefits of high protein while also reducing the “high mTOR activity” danger.
Plus as you’ve pointed out, it’s just good sense to put your body on maintenance mode regularly.
wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2015/01/is-meat-unhealthy-part-vii.html
wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2015/01/does-high-protein-explain-low-carb.html
Also 600 cals/day sounds both more difficult and less beneficial than 0.
@Kit “Also 600 cals/day sounds both more difficult and less beneficial than 0.”
” the study only examined the effects of eight weeks of an extreme energy-restriction diet, where the daily intake was only 600 calories.”
“liver’s sensitivity to insulin improved from 43% at the beginning of the study to 74% after one week. By week eight, the fatty acid content of the liver had fallen from 12.8% at the study’s start to 2.9%, while levels in the pancreas fell from 8.0% to 6.2%. The sensitivity of pancreatic cells to glucose improved over the eight weeks of the intervention.”
Kit
With you on regularly scheduled maintenance mode is good.
Not so sure about severely reducing mTHOR, I know it is the new discovery in long life, but it is also required to build muscle. I would be cautious if over forty, I believe strength is vital to long living.
IF seems like a good way to have both, at once:
– FIAF hormone
– active gut bacteria
Some LC advocates are afraid of FIAF decrease, going as far as suggesting that germ-free is a good stuff:
high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2007/12/fiaf-whos-fat-is-it-anyway.html
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