It’s Just The Truth – A Fair Critique of Paleo

Where do you suppose I just dropped this comment?

Well what the hell.

I think it’s a damn fine, honest critique. It is what it is. I call ’em how I see ’em and I enjoyed the post and think it’s a worthy read by anyone. I myself have had a bit of an eye opening experience these last six weeks where most of my intake comes from raw milk & homemade kefir from same, along with some fresh raw OJ and Kombucha—bits of meat and mostly fermented veggies elsewhere. I feel great, and body composition is changing radically without even much time spent in the gym (av. less than an hour per MONTH).

Alright, M, make the most of it, pass it around if you like, kick it up on PD. But it’s simply the truth that I see it as an important, valuable post no matter what else I think elsewhere.

Right here. Go read. It’s a far different Dear John letter than that one a few years back “Farewell to paleo” you may remember.

One thing I will never engage in is a lie to myself where just because I have a dispute with someone or basically hate their guts, then suddenly something that’s good and valuable becomes bad and destructive. Nope, can’t do it. And of course, I have no obligation to promote it, either, but then I would be betraying my own stated motivation, which is to pass along what I deem valuable to you all.

By all means, read it, take it as a message that you have to figure out what’s best for you individually, even if that means you’re “not really paleo.”

Since Covid killed my Cabo San Lucas vacation-rental business in 2021, this is my day job. I can't do it without you. Memberships are $10 monthly, $20 quarterly, or $65 annually. Two premium coffees per month. Every membership helps finance this work I do, and if you like what I do, please chip in. No grandiose pitches.


  1. Danny J Albers on April 10, 2013 at 08:37

    I pretty much tune out drama so I am not in tune with the politics but I fully agree with her assessment that paleo has become a lot of content farms preaching to the converted in order to sell to the converted and that pointed it out certainly has the fans rallying against you.

    The insipid rise in loyalty building provocation marketing is working magnificently on our collected minds just as it does on vegans and all other diet religions.

    Surely I cannot be the only one that notices the huge flood of posts debunking every red meat article that hits the New York times for its poor applications of correlation = causation, yet we laud the Perfect Health Diet and so many others that are based on exactly that same type of science.

    Now to end with a confession. I occasional eat peanut butter. Don’t seem to bother me or help me any more or less than almond butter. I am actually doubting the whole idea of “leaky gut” because physiologically it seems the mechanism of action is not fully plausible.

  2. Danny J Albers on April 10, 2013 at 11:24

    @ Mario

    Well that is part of the problem Mario. It is as a theory an unproven hypothesis yet I am often asked to “disprove it” when I say I have my doubts.

    A Google of “Leaky gut myth” will provide tonnes of contradictory conclusions.

    However it is often diagnosed based only on symptoms and in fact the theory was invented to answer a set of symptoms that seem to plague a segment of our population with many mystery digestive issues.

    However in short, before the “food” even hits a “more permeable part of the gut due to peanuts” it is already digested, and the bowel’s job is then to absort the nutrients. Selective permeability allows this to happen. Increasing permeability does not necessarily make it “less selective” and even if that one barrier did develop holes there are others requiring the nutrient to selectively diffuse across (not just bypass).

    And then, if it somehow did get into the blood it would go directly to the liver to be delt with and further processed. The liver happens to be AWESOME at handling small amounts of toxins and ditching them from the body. Some would even say that is one of its primary functions.

    For me personally, I am a skeptic by nature, and I am filing this next to adrenal fatigue as a “possible theory without real proof”. Not saying its wrong just unproven by any stretch. And like any disease or malady, just because you physiology wrong does not mean you have not identified at least the cause, and cannot implement some helpful interventions.

    The problem is, and we see this all the time, maladies like this become self diagnosed by readers, spurred on by bloggers with solutions to sell (private consults for example, special supplements, personal templates).

  3. LeonRover on April 10, 2013 at 08:20

    Hemingway wrote “A Farewell to Arms” in 1929 – summarised as

    “A tale of the love between ambulance driver Lt. Henry and Nurse Catherine Barkley during World War I”.

    This is more apt – It’s Neil again

    (Lurve the line: ” Don’t you leave my heart in Missouri” ?

  4. Kevin on April 10, 2013 at 08:23

    I’m a little miffed at her logic:

    1. To paint Paleo as a “diet” (nice strawman)
    2. To then argue with her chart that “all diets lead to undernutrition.”

    At least that’s the implication.

    Most people I know are pretty loose with the Paleo definition and advocate for a “personal experimentation” model. She chooses to paint everyone as Paleo fascists spreading a crusade of malnutrition.

    • Richard Nikoley on April 10, 2013 at 08:34

      I evaluated this on the same basis I evaluate almost everything, that is the overall message. A balance sheet if you will. When I give anything a thumbs up, it means that I overall support the message, not that I agree with every detail. I hate to nit pick, ever.

  5. Mario on April 10, 2013 at 09:22

    “I am actually doubting the whole idea of “leaky gut” because physiologically it seems the mechanism of action is not fully plausible.”

    Very interesting! Danny, would you mind elaborating on that. Thanks!

  6. Dan on April 10, 2013 at 09:24

    I thought it was a great article and certainly resonated with my own feelings towards paleo lately.

  7. Richard Nikoley on April 10, 2013 at 09:41


    It mystifies me why people have to get defensive about an honest critique covering years of experience, from the heart and experience. Your feelings and experience may be different, or similar in some and radically not in others. She is completely not advocating crap in a bag by any stretch. It’s one person’s experience and as such, probably a lot. Also, she didn’t shit on paleo at all. It’s the sort of thing that actually improves paleo.

    That’s how I saw it.

    Gonna give it a few hours and read it again to see how my first impression might differ with a more critical look, but Im not expecting much difference.

  8. Dan on April 10, 2013 at 09:57

    Richard I think it’s too your credit you can be as non-biased as possible. It was a great article that said lets just focus on real food. I can bet the majority of what she eats is still good vegetables and meats. People seem to realise there are still caveats with paleo. A few off the top of my head would be, nutrients tend to follow a law of diminishing returns so after a certain point eating more of something doesn’t provide much benefit. Which, leads me to my second point and that this may explain why the longest lived people in the world eat non-paleo foods also. Because they still eat highly nutritious meats, seafoods, and vegetables, and perhaps, just perhaps, the addition of grains or rice doesn’t mean jack on top of that. Thirdly, paleo hasn’t cured everyones problems or diet issues and people still struggle on it and so this in and of itself is an argument that it isn’t ‘the’ cure everyone says it is. Fourthly, people push paleo as low carb or anti sugar etc, and yet there is evidence that hunter gatherers ate both (maple anyway). They may argue that the american indians that ate maple represent only one group but then so do the inuit and the number of times they get brought up to prove that meat is important is just ridiculous. Then I see slogans on facebook saying ‘eat meat over plants for nutrition’. I mean what the fuck!!! Green leafy plants have way more nutrients in them than meat this comparison is just rubbish. It’s just because they want to push their own preference for eating meat and bacon AND BACON wtf! How paleo is bacon, I mean, really…… Anyway can you stop typing stuff because I keep getting pissed off. lol.

  9. Cori on April 10, 2013 at 10:09

    So after reading your comment I went right over and read the post myself.

    Great post actually…

    I firmly believe there isn’t one perfect variation of any one diet that will work for everyone. And that is why it is important to keep learning and experimenting. It is important to try diets as they are laid out by others and then to make your own educated decision about what works. (Which is why I find I have trouble with many people’s critiques that certain diets don’t “work” for them…They claim they “tried” a diet when in reality then didn’t actually adhere to it for more than a minute yet blame their negative results on it not “working” when it is actually the fact that they didn’t do the diet as it was laid out! Anyway…)

    My point is that there are going to be a TON of diets out there that do in fact work. Mark Sisson found the diet that works for him. The people at Whole 9 found a diet that works for them. HOWEVER, if you read at all on either site, you will find that both diets have EVOLVED and both are different!

    If their diets evolved, then why shouldn’t yours!?! They found what worked for them through experimentation and research and now you have to take their base and build on it.

    I think the only thing that bothered me about her post were the comments because they became sort of laundry list of excuses as to why Paleo didn’t work for them. Paleo isn’t one entity….You have people out there making Paleo cakes and others eating only meats and veggies. You have some that eat dairy and others that shun it.

    Some of those variations are going to work and well…some aren’t! And just like any industry out there in the health and fitness field where there is a market, people are going to jump in to try to make money!

    That doesn’t mean you ignore the entire field. It just means you actually have to use your common sense and make your own educated decisions.

  10. Joshua on April 10, 2013 at 10:32

    My favorite part of the post was its acknowledgement of the phenomenon of Paleo as religion, similar to vegetarianism. In my experience with fundamentalists, a large percentage of the fundamentalist Christians that manage to break away from their home church tend to turn to a different kind of fundamentalism. A different One Truth. The most fervent anti-theists I know of are almost universally former fundamentalist Christians.

    I think Melissa is a good example of this with her adherence first to vegetarianism and then to paleo. I hope that she’s reached post fundamentalism now and doesn’t try to represent that she has the One Truth.

  11. Earl Cannonbear on April 10, 2013 at 11:48

    So what’s next on the menu?

    Unfermented soybean whole-wheat sandwiches smothered in canola based margarine all washed down with a Coke?

    If it feels good eat it!

    Where do we draw the line?

  12. Richard Nikoley on April 10, 2013 at 11:52


    Some of my most cherished friends talk about “adrenal fatigue,” but can just not get my self to even look into it because it has always smelled ridiculous to me.

    Not sure about gut permeabily, either. What I do know is that seasonal spring allergies are way less a problem drinking 20+ ounces of kefir per day over 6 weeks.

    I don’t know why.

  13. Richard Nikoley on April 10, 2013 at 11:54

    “So what’s next on the menu?”

    So you think you and everyone else needs to be told?

  14. Earl Cannonbear on April 10, 2013 at 12:31

    I seem to recall you had some unfriendly things to say about Don Matesz.

    Is this vegan asshole also back in your good graces now too?

    When can we expect a public apology?

  15. Galina L. on April 10, 2013 at 13:06

    I just never felt I could relate to Melissa at all (I am sure she wouldn’t mind that). I have different health issues, different things bug me in life, even though I am a foodie who cooks everything from a scratch, I can’t relate to her food porno.
    It looks like Paleo people are the wrong crowd for Melissa, and it is more practical for her to live them than to expect they would change up to her wishes and standards. It will eventually make both sides happier.
    I am not a part of a paleo movement myself, just an observer. I guess, some people may categorize me as a LC in a Weston Price style.

  16. Keoni Galt on April 10, 2013 at 13:09

    Not sure about gut permeabily, either. What I do know is that seasonal spring allergies are way less a problem drinking 20+ ounces of kefir per day over 6 weeks.

    I don’t know why.

    Come now Richard, really? Have you never read Dr. Art Ayer’s?

    Your immune system is directly related to the health, variety and composition of your gut bacteria.

    What do you think kefir has to do with that?

    Same goes for sauerkraut, organic – unsweetened yogurt, raw dairy from pastured ruminants, kim chee, poi and yes, the moderate consumption of alcohol.

  17. Richard Nikoley on April 10, 2013 at 14:47

    The translation is that you can not possibly be objective outside the workplace, Wooo.

    You debase yourself with the same old schik, every time, all the every time.

  18. Richard Nikoley on April 10, 2013 at 14:53

    “Come now Richard, really? Have you never read Dr. Art Ayer’s?”

    Heard about him forever. Not really read much. last I checked, seemed he had an invitation only portal and I’ve never been invited.

  19. marie on April 10, 2013 at 15:34

    multi-layered series of posts, yours and those you’ve linked to, thank you!
    To great compositions, of any kind, Rush (of course) :
    Current faves – tiens ;) : Buenos Nochas Mein Froinds, and, a Lerxst in Wonderland.

  20. Keoni Galt on April 10, 2013 at 15:34

    Hmmm….I was a bit incredulous as to why you didn’t know how kefir would boost your immune system, and I thought I had actually found his blog via linkage here at FTA several years ago. Guess not.

    His cooling inflammation blog is awesome, and he really goes in depth on the science side of gut bacteria and how diet affects it and your overall health.

  21. marie on April 10, 2013 at 16:04

    Keoni Galt,
    o.k., but how does that affect the notion of Permeability?
    Ayers, I thought, explains how the Composition of the bacterial community in the gut is integral to immunity (please correct me if I don’t remember well – I only rechecked a recent post).
    However, I don’t think anyone argues against that, even if only learning now what processes work best to affect that composition. It’s importance is rather self-evident since it’s the source of most of our immunity.

    Where ideas get a bit murky is with this ‘permeability’ notion. I don’t see why anyone needs to invoke, essentially, tiny holes in the gut lining to explain some negative systemic effects of certain foods in some people and if true, small leaks would be neutralized by the liver and large ones would have, er, measurable effects by blood test, it’s called septicemia, no? O.k., I exaggerate for illustration, but it’s true that if there are weakened barriers allowing in some larger partly undigested proteins, they would allow in bacterially-produced toxins too. In fact, the definition of toxin gets murky at that point. And the liver would deal, it deals with much bigger, well known toxicities.

    Danny J Albers, +1 ! “Some would even say that is one of its primary functions”

  22. Remnant on April 10, 2013 at 16:54

    It is a good post that people should read but I am still going to register my complaints about it. My complaint has nothing to do with “paleo”, “purity” or anything like that. Really, my complaint is with the title of her piece (and therefore her misidentification of the target she is really disillusioned with).

    It should not have been “Breaking Up with Paleo” but “Breaking up with food dogmatism and with unhealthy obsessions about food generally.” But I guess that has less of a ring to it.

    I was not present at the first Ancestral Food Symposium but I remember reading about one of the presenters asking the audience to raise their hands if they had ever been vegan or vegetarian, and some very large percentage of people (30+, maybe even a majority) raising their hands. This never surprised me: people who tended to be interested in paleo tended to be people who were interested in diet and health generally, people who were willing to try something non-mainstream to see where it led. For this reason, paleo attracted (and continues to attract) a lot of thoughtful, interesting, thinking-out-of-the-box people. But it also meant that it attracted many people who had / have an unhealthy obsession / relationship with food, with strict rules, with purity, with dogma. These two groups of people overlap considerably. Hell, I credit my initial hard-core attitude towards paleo with finally making me realize that I was tending to approach food and fitness with an unhealthy and unappealing Trotskyite rigidity in general. When I refused to have even a single Chinese dumpling because of the wheat, I realized I was acting just the same as when I refused to eat a single baked bean when I was vegan because the batch had been cooked with a single piece of bacon thrown in. But is this a problem with paleo, or a problem with ourselves (i.e. with each of us as individuals)? I think many people did / do this. But many of them / us, including many of the leaders of the paleo community, got over it.

    To take this a bit further, any diet movement will have its more hardcore, rigid and certainly even misguided adherents. But it will also have its open-minded, fact-based, willing-to-be-corrected people. When has Mark Sisson (to give one example) ever condescendingly said a snarky farewell to a “comrade” because he or she “wasn’t doing it right”? When has Mark Sisson ever implied that he never eats a sandwich or has a beer, or told anyone else they shouldn’t? Although Kurt Harris hasn’t been blogging in ages, I can still picture him rolling his eyes (or the Internet equivalent) as he reminds a commentator for the n-th time “ These are GUIDELINES people.” “YMMV.” “Going further down the list is better than stopping 1/3rd down but do as much as you are able to.” “Don’t ask me for recipes, people: I’m just not that into food.” Etc. etc. And I will never forget the immortal quote from Art de Vany (which I believe came to my attention via Richard): “There are no forbidden foods.”

    To get back to the original theme, Melissa strikes me as someone with a tendency towards an unhealthy relationship to food, and for that type of person, the tendency will assert itself regardless of whether the diet de jour is vegan, paleo, or whatever. If she has now awoken to that unhealthy tendency and is therefore separating herself from people who feed that unhealthy tendency, good for her. But to my mind it should come with an acknowledgement that the best of paleo has been there for a long time.

  23. Richard Nikoley on April 10, 2013 at 17:32

    Outstanding addition, Remnant. I agree with it all.

    And yep, that was Art. He said it at his Las Vegas conference.

  24. Richard Nikoley on April 10, 2013 at 17:41



  25. Geoff on April 11, 2013 at 09:05

    Gotta say, Melissa’s post didn’t get me thinking of Rush as much as it did this

    That’s a cover that put a new spin on the original and took it in a great direction.

  26. Daniel Kirsner on April 10, 2013 at 20:18

    “Breaking Up with Paleo”?


    Maybe I should keep this on the DL, but the story **I** heard was that Paleo dumped Melissa to get with Denise Minger.

  27. Dan Linehan on April 10, 2013 at 21:28

    @Danny J Albers

    The easy solution is to vote with your dollar. I’ve been “mostly paleo” for around 2-3 years now, and I’m not sure I’ve spent any money on paleo branded products it except for a couple paleo cookbooks that I still enjoy today.

    I have spent some funds on grassfed meats, but that’s a product type I feel great about supporting.

  28. Dan Linehan on April 10, 2013 at 21:30

    God, I hate the lack of threaded comments here now. Even when I use the @symbol to respond to someone, they might have multiple posts and it’s not obvious which I’m replying to.

  29. Remnant on April 10, 2013 at 22:40

    @Dan Linehan, 21:30.

    Funny, I was going to comment that I LIKE that Richard having ended threaded comments: It makes it much harder to follow which comments are new ones, particularly when the thread gets into the hundreds of comments (as on FTA it frequently does). But for posts with fewer comments, I agree threads can be good. Maybe Richard should start predicting which posts will generate hundreds of comments, and activate or deactive threads on that basis. ;)

  30. Nigel Kinbrum on April 11, 2013 at 04:05

    marie said…
    “Where ideas get a bit murky is with this ‘permeability’ notion. I don’t see why anyone needs to invoke, essentially, tiny holes in the gut lining to explain some negative systemic effects of certain foods in some people and if true, small leaks would be neutralized by the liver and large ones would have, er, measurable effects by blood test, it’s called septicemia, no? O.k., I exaggerate for illustration, but it’s true that if there are weakened barriers allowing in some larger partly undigested proteins, they would allow in bacterially-produced toxins too. In fact, the definition of toxin gets murky at that point. And the liver would deal, it deals with much bigger, well known toxicities.”
    The way I look at “excessive intestinal permeability” is this:-

    Bacteria getting into the circulation from the gut stimulate an immune response. This is good.

    Peptide chains getting into the circulation from the gut stimulate an immune response. This is usually harmless. However, if the peptide chains match those of proteins in the body, the immune response is inappropriate, leading to auto-immune conditions like T1DM (beta cells), Eczema (skin), Dermatitis Herpetiformis (skin), Asthma (lungs), Cerebellar Ataxia (brain), Rheumatoid Arthritis (joints), Sjogren’s Syndrome (mucus membranes) etc etc.

  31. Sean on April 11, 2013 at 04:26

    Richard, when Woo wrote, “Paleo sold out, maaaaan. I knew about them when they didn’t suck and it was about evolution. So lame now bro.” I think it was pretty clear she was mocking Melissa not your article or paleo in general.

    I agree that Melissa is a hipster snob, but it is also true that paleo was much more interesting a few years ago when it was new and bubbling with energy and new ideas, just like anything with momentum that starts out as an underground phenomena.

    If Melissa wants to break up with paleo, maybe she should stop stalking paleo with her drama queen blog. “I totally dumped Andre, now I just park outside his house at 2 AM because I’m curious what sort of skank he’s hooking up with.”

  32. Richard Nikoley on April 11, 2013 at 06:21


    Yes, I get all of that and obviously I see PD as a senseless endeavor overall, with some exceptions not really worth mentioning. I’m simply not one to debase myself by holding something that’s generally good is suddenly crap because of who said/wrote it. And while I could pic nits at the article I think it’s decent info–as with most stuff she’s ever posted on HGL. But this one was important enough to call attention to. Simple as that. My call.

    Another reason it resonates is that going way back I have always been one to challenge dogma, extremism, and so on. I still remember the hoopla over saying potatoes are fine a few years back.

    And yea, her post does smack a bit of woe is me, the victim. There seems to be this silly attitude that one is paleo or isn’t. Paleo is merely a general convenient way of putting a tag on what you’re about. I’ve never seen it as a dogma myself–because it is and should be individualized just like paleoman living in the tropics is going to have a radically different diet than someone living in the arctic or at altitude. So while there are dogmatists within the movement, that’s changing, so I don’t see a problem.

  33. Richard Nikoley on April 11, 2013 at 07:08


    Here’s my go-to Stangiato vid. Live.


    Yea, just never payed attention to Kefir. I had an inkling of the gut health deal but various probiotics I tried didn’t really seem to do anything. With Kefir, what I noticed inside of 2 weeks was profound behavioral changes, going with the flow, being less interested in alcohol, etc. That got me thinking and chasing rabbits down holes.

    @Dan @Remnant

    The problem is there’s no good solution so I’ve picked the least bad as I see it. The problem with threads is just as Remnant describes. New comments are all over the place. If there was a better way to differentiate different threads from top-down, that might be good—like a forum structure where the comments are. Also, it’s either threading or none. Can’t enable post-by post. But I think the value of having the newest comments in chron order at the bottom slightly tips it toward not having them at all. One of the things that irritates me the most is that with nesting, people get lazy about referencing what they are replying to, and unless it’s right underneath, it’s difficult, especially when replying to someone farther up in the thread so that the nesting is at lesser of a level suddenly than where the more recent replies are, so you have to scroll up to figure out what’s being replied to.

  34. LeonRover on April 11, 2013 at 07:11

    So Richard – you have relaxed two of the Cordain’s (and Modern Paleo’s) restrictions, namely Potato and Milk Products.

    I do hope that you may – at some suitable time delay – tell us about the incorporation of Traditional Beans to your eating.

    BTW – I grew up drinking farm milk & farm cream, but the rest of the product was sent to the outfit which now sends you KerryGold. At any milk factory, some pasteurisation takes place before further processing.

  35. Pauline on April 11, 2013 at 07:35

    I also liked her article as well as this one:

    Its like anything in life, you experiment and try different things, some work some don’t – you move on. As long as you are open and curious, you learn a lot along the way especially when things don’t work. I also have found taking time out from it all as the mood took me gave me perspective. When you pop back into the conversations, life has moved on people are discussing different things. I have stuck around because most of it interesting, challenging and diverse. I been reading online since 2005 and have loved hearing about everyone’s experiments and especially commenters who have given back so much too.

  36. Richard Nikoley on April 11, 2013 at 07:48


    Beans. Well, my wife’s family is Mexican descent. Love the pinto beans and when down south visiting the in-laws, pinto is part of every breakfast. But still mainly an indulgence for me. I make a few pots per year, but I do it in the traditional way and soak them. Mom-in-law does not, can’t get her to listen about it (“old wive’s tale” — oh, well, she just turned 80 last week and Bea’s dad is like 85. Both going strong so who the fuck am I? They’ve already won at life).

    Growing up, my mom ALWAYS soaked beans or lentils overnight whenever she made them. I didn’t realize there was any other way.

  37. LeonRover on April 11, 2013 at 08:16


    I grew up eating broad beans (aka Fava) and peas straight from the kitchen garden in season – it was my “big boy job” to pick ’em.

    It was only with the introduction of the canned “baked bean in tomato sauce (Heinz)” that I became aware of legume “wind generation”. It is aptly named as Phaseolus vulgaris. I never ate much of this item. This was my first experience of food-intolerance.

    I avoid soy as much as possible. I use aduki occasionally as a stew thickener.


  38. Richard Nikoley on April 11, 2013 at 08:19

    We grew peas in the garden. It was great because there was a ready snack all summer long. Pick a handfull, break the pod, scoop the sweet peas right into your mouth with a practiced thumb motion. I’m sure you know exactly what I mean.

  39. marie on April 11, 2013 at 10:18

    Nigel, mostly I agree, but essentially it comes down to inserting one word : ” ..the Hypothesized immune response is inappropriate….”
    Maybe. :)

  40. LeonRover on April 11, 2013 at 10:52

    Nigel & Marie

    Other than casomorphin BCM7 fragment from bovine A1-type β-caseins which is conjectured to elicit an inappropriate immune response, which MIGHT have some connection with autism – what others are there?

    (I note that South Wales is currently delivering emergency MMR injections to deal with a school outbreak of measles. Population immunity against measles became compromised mainly as a result of Andrew Wakefield’s fraudulent “research” into the “causes” of autism.)


  41. Richard Nikoley on April 11, 2013 at 11:39


    I’m mystified.

    See, when I finally became tired of being shit on in spite of an honest and sincere effort to forge a friendship with you, one of the very last shots I saw was you mocking me for “posting so many comments on your blog.” Then when I went and deleted every comment I ever posted on your blog on every post going back to sometime last summer, there were about 60 of them. Then I went and deleted yours here. ‘Bout 360.

    And now you’re still over here dropping comments after I told you that I burn bridges. And stating stupid shit like I’m holding out for reconciliation with DramaQueen—like I’m a 20 year old pining adolescent or something. Perhaps you can’t handle recognizing something good an ex-friend does, but I actually can. That’s not applicable for you because I never got to really be your friend.

    So why do you insist on posting here?

    Can I make it explicit? I never want to hear from you again. Regardless of what you post here, it’s unwelcome, a pain in the ass. How come you insist? I am warming up to the idea that you’re just a crazy bitch with never ending personal problems with a penchant for writing style and not afraid to reveal your craziness. It’s fine. I don’t wish you bad at all, quite the contrary. But you are far too unstable for me, and while I’m not a huge fan of undying loyalty, I at least demand that someone I’m friendly with has a benefit of doubt perspective, as I extend to everyone I’m friendly with.

    Can we just say goodbeye and be done with it? Seriously. I actually never want to see your blog or see a comment from you in this one, ever. I told you I’m a bridge burner. I fucking meant it.

    Go away, please.

  42. marie on April 11, 2013 at 11:55

    LeonRover, I’ve heard of the ones Nigel mentions but that’s my point exactly, it’s hypotheses and conjecture, as far as I know.
    As for me, I’m not aware of any systematic study showing evidence of more than one of the necessary steps from specific fragments, to absorptions through areas of more permeable gut lining, to disease. Some possible pathways only.

  43. LeonRover on April 11, 2013 at 12:32


    I meant what other fragments had been identified.

    The identification of damaging protein fragments is not merely in its infancy – it is barely in in the 1st week post conception.

    I am reminded of a gene study which tried to associate genes with HDL expression. The BEST association found 3% extra HDL with one particular gene. Thus the population average of 40 (1 mmol) is boosted to 41 (1.03 mmol) in those with this particular gene. (As my own HDL is 100 (3 mmol), I take an interest in such things.)

  44. marie on April 11, 2013 at 12:58

    LeonRover, ‘it is barely in the 1st week post conception”, laf. And as such, likely to be spontaneously miscarried. O.k., so…..not a fan of these hypotheses, huh? :D

  45. LeonRover on April 11, 2013 at 13:01

    Hey Rich – fugget abou’ dat Wooo t’ing.

    Console with Raul Malo all the way from Miami

  46. LeonRover on April 11, 2013 at 13:17

    Hey Marie, as a Baconian empiricist, I want to count the fuckin’ teeth in the horse’s mouth, not argue from 1st principles about dancers and needlepoint!

    My H1 vs H0 is 1% – preferably 0.1%.

    My NNT (number to treat) is 5, not 200.

    I despise all epidemiologists since Bradford Hill.

  47. Richard Nikoley on April 11, 2013 at 13:38

    “Hey Rich – fugget abou’ dat Wooo t’ing.”

    She’s posting here, basically daring me to ban her or something. Don’t know, just suspect.

    I’m just trying to tell it straight. Not interested in her comments here. Not interested in her at all.

    I’ll just try to struggle along.

  48. marie on April 11, 2013 at 14:45

    LeonRover, I hear you, I’m not much into arguing about angels on a pin either.
    Without Hill’s criteria, there’s no “modern epidemiology” (which riles me in it’s misuse of the ancient name), so I’m no fan either.

  49. marie on April 11, 2013 at 15:31

    nah, more like she’s just tone-deaf to the recent harmonies.

    But listen to this, oh struggler, because laughing at your self has such a freeing quality…and ok., also because it’s just a damn great song (live, mon cher) :

  50. Cow on April 11, 2013 at 15:46

    Like all the soap opera, Melrose Paleo have it share of fight, love affair, reunion, redemptions, illogical story arcs, and, of course, many falsified paternity test. Cow maybe crazy fucker, but I think villains and heros is for storybooks and rest of us, is, well, if I may quote again the scriptures:

    Cowrinthians 4, Chapter 11, Verse 3: And the Lord spaketh unto the masses, spakething, “My childrerns, always remember, you are just as big an asshole as everybody else.” Amen.

  51. marie on April 11, 2013 at 16:05
  52. Nigel Kinbrum on April 11, 2013 at 16:13

    LeonRover // Apr 11, 2013 at 10:52
    “Nigel & Marie
    Other than casomorphin BCM7 fragment from bovine A1-type β-caseins which is conjectured to elicit an inappropriate immune response, which MIGHT have some connection with autism – what others are there?”
    What makes the body decide to attack itself at some point in someone’s life? Why do 10% of healthy blood donors have antibodies for gliadin in their blood?

  53. Nigel Kinbrum on April 11, 2013 at 16:24

    Sod it! Just read the lot Showing posts with label autoantigen.

  54. LeonRover on April 11, 2013 at 16:52

    Thanks Nigel.

    I’d forgotten about Art.

  55. Dr. Curmudgeon Gee on April 11, 2013 at 20:26

    i don’t follow HGL regularly. just uninteresting & of no value (to me).

    strange she’d say paleo does not work for her?

    cause she said she was sick all the time while being vegan (“frail”); paleo diet cured all her health problems.

    also i wonder crossfit may not work for her (maybe not enough fuel?)
    it seems pretty boring & too strenuous to me (have no $ nor time @ gym)

    my diet is mostly PHD/archevore + some grains & beans WAP style; i still call it paleo; it’s a convenient label. it’s not Cordain’s or Art’s version (more draconian & methink silly & wasteful)

  56. LeonRover on April 12, 2013 at 12:29

    Yes, the milk of bovine kindness – lactose-free since lactase treated.

    (from the country that brought KerryGold)

  57. Daniel Kirsner on April 12, 2013 at 01:09

    @Dr. Curmudgeon Gee–

    I entirely agree Re: HGL. Melissa’s screed on “Paleo” has nothing at all to do with paleo diets, it’s all about Melissa and her fundamental instability. Unstable people tend not to have stable relationships. People who externalize the sources of their own unhappiness tend not to see themselves, primarily, as in need of changing, but things outside themselves–diets, relationships, jobs, housing, etc.

    Re: exercise–it’s unfortunate that a high-risk, inefficient and relatively ineffective training modality such as CrossCrippled became associated with paleo diets. And while it doesn’t need to be expensive, as you note, it typically is. If you’d like to train, but have limited time and money, I’d encourage you to look into versions of High Intensity Training (HIT) that emphasize a slower (but not SuperSlow, unless you prefer that style) repetition speed. I typically train about one hour per week (two 30 minute sessions) at a gym which costs me $30/month.

    Some useful sources of info on HIT:

  58. Pauline on April 12, 2013 at 02:15

    Wow Cow is back, you just gotta love that cow philosophy its like golden Irish butter pure grass fed, good for the brain and the soul! I have missed cow’s out of the corner of mouth/slip of the tongue advice for the masses.

  59. DB on April 12, 2013 at 08:23

    @everyone So I can only speak from my perspective but here is my take on it, and I think this parrallels what Melissa is thinking. I am completely and utterly fucked when it comes to food. I will take anything about it to the extreme. This is why labeling myself paleo, just that action alone, makes me go insane! I start blogs, I start taking photos of food, I weigh myself everyday, I tell people they are not paleo if they eat salt,….eventually this leads to a complete breakdown. I don’t think I am capable of not going extreme or radical because my whole thinking around food is just extremely fucked. My other problem is I am a scientist and a perfectionist. So I tend to go to great lengths studying the nitty gritty details, actually getting bogged down in the details so much that I lose myself. All because I don’t want one minute miniscule detail fucking everything up. See I am crazy! Even my friends say so but I just thought they didn’t get it man.

    I CAN find solace in taking the boundaries away. I can find solace in not adhering to the paleo rules anymore, even though I technically agree with the philosophy – real foods. My argument, I guess, is what is real foods. But see there I go again starting to define what I just labelled myself and leaping happily down the rabbit hole. Accepting that I can eat whatever I want yet trying to eat as best I can is the best medium I can attain without going nutjob. And even then it’s a struggle to not go there. I guess I do have an eating disorder. Fuck that sucks!

    Anyway I digress a second time. Melissa saying she can’t adhere to this paleo is in a similar vein I think. Allowing herself to eat real food, and taking away the restrictions, is what is giving her peace of mind, but more than that a break or holiday from her obsessive self. When she is getting angry or seemingly snobby at people its probably her way to desperately cling to her beliefs. Because what yo don’t realise is that intertwined within those beliefs is a desperate hope. A hope that if she just gets it right everything will magically be cured. And YOU telling her she is wrong is similar to taking that hope away from her. This is how I think anyway. Its desperation not arrogance. And if accepting that this is all just a big lie, and the only escape from this cycle, is breaking up with paleo and eating foods not on the approved list – I say thats a good thing. This is why I related to her post, this is what I think she is thinking. Many of you more saner folks see paleo as a philosophy, and see non-paleo foods as acceptable, in the end she is just eating like you guys now, but to label herself ‘paleo’ can lead to dangerous places.

    Finally, I will add that there is some irony that HGL and Free the Animal are more similar than people might like to admit. HGL is going against the paleo paradigm and challenging the mainstream wisdom, something Free the Animal has consistently done for a long time. So maybe they are more similar than people care to admit in many ways, and maybe that is why this post spoke to Richard, because it was honest and it wasn’t buying into the paleo way of doing things just because…

    But don’t get me started on her other blog. I still have obsessive fucking problems with THAT! And this is why I started a fish blog, because at least with that my scientific obsession will push my career further along. Although I have noticed seafood recipes starting to appear so I think I just can’t help myself. God I am fucked.

    Self flagellation over.

  60. Nigel Kinbrum on April 12, 2013 at 09:10

    Embrace the madness, Dan. I did, years ago ;-)
    I’m a nerd who loves to over-think/analyse things. However, I also love mah food!
    If someone tells me that my pork belly strips contain too much omega-6 because the pigs were fed grains, I’ll thank them very much for the information and carry on eating them. Om, nom, nom.

    As I said to someone-or-other, worrying about “X” is probably worse for health than “X” itself. So, take some Epsom Salts & chill (or have a jolly good poo if you overdose) :-D

  61. marie on April 12, 2013 at 12:07

    Cow and Pauline,
    I so agree, each.
    How could I not, for Cow maketh me to lie down in green pastures.
    Cow restoreth my soul.

  62. LeonRover on April 12, 2013 at 12:30

    (from the country that brought you KerryGold)

  63. BillP on April 12, 2013 at 17:43


    LOL. Great comment, hilarious, and very insightful. Made my day.

  64. nullAndVoid on April 13, 2013 at 15:00

    LMFAO @ Wooo! 360 v 60. Fact.

    Richard, you write best when you’re angry at something or someone. All your introspective crap gets lost on me. However, when you’re firing a few angry shots back at someone (as your reply to Wooo above), you’re great!

  65. nullAndVoid on April 13, 2013 at 15:04

    BTW Richard, I’d be glad to told fuck off by someone if they could do it as well as you’ve done for Wooo above!

  66. […] gives you a sense of affirmation. I ultimately got ready to just delete and be done because some crazy bitch simply refuses to leave me alone, and in this case, seems to have had to mark her territory (Blogger is AWEFUL at comment […]

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