The Definitive Guide to Melissa McEwen’s “Paleo Drama”

“To the man who only has a hammer, everything he encounters begins to look like a nail.” — Abraham H. Maslow

[For an update, please see: Lemons to Lemonade Documentary – Ed]

I had a couple of posts in draft to further delve into two aspects of what has come up recently in the latest series of Paleo controversies kicked off by Melissa McEwen of the well respected blog Hunt-Gather-Love, once she began a Mark I, Mod A, By-the-Book smear blog: Paleo Drama.* Instead of posting those, or continuing my tongue-in-cheek “Misogyny 10x” series, I want to do a final, single post on all of this and call it a day, week, month, year…and move onto more more productive and constructive endeavors.

(* A smear campaign is a purposefully dishonest, out-of-context attack whereby only information judged to further the smear is used. Mitigating circumstances, exculpatory evidence, clarifications or elaborations are never used—by design and on purpose—because they do not further the goals and aims of the smear campaign.)

For background, Friday evening I was sitting at a restaurant with Jolly (the camera guy at AHS11 & 12 and The 21 Convention) and Keith & Michelle Norris (Paleo fx) for dinner and we were talking about my AHS “Whining and Gnashing of Teeth” post, the volunteer behind it, etc. Jolly called up the cached version of the volunteer’s post, began reading the comments and asked how things were with Melissa. I said they were fine; that we’d had our issues, but have since exchanged a lot of friendly emails over the months on a number of topics and that she comments now and then on the blog.

He said, “are you sure?” and then showed me her comment on that cached post. [Unfortunately, the cache is no longer available either. If someone has it in some version, feel free to shoot me the link and I’ll insert it here.]

Later that night, or perhaps it was Saturday morning, I was alerted to “paleo Drama” for the first time and had not the faintest thought of putting 2 and 2 together. There were only a few posts, a couple of them mentioning me and how awful I am. I assumed it was some troll and didn’t give it much thought. I replied to an inquiry on Twitter later that day or evening that it would never get a mention from me. It wasn’t until late Saturday night that all came together and low & behold, it was Melissa behind it.

Shocked was I. I decided to give it a while, think about it, see how the whole project was developing. I initially decided a “no comment” stance might be the best approach, and then realized that just wasn’t going to cut it. But rather than attack it or her, I decided to post this instead. It was a simple effort at reconciliation, or at least Détente. I took every measure I could think of in the post to keep it from being a so-called “hate circus” on Melissa, Evelyn, or any related parties in comments. Why escalate? Done it already.

[For an update, please see: Lemons to Lemonade Documentary – Ed]

What happens? Melissa immediately blasts me for taking those measures to not have happen this time what she was upset about having happened last time!?!? I even acknowledged and accepted her criticism of that last time in the post, and repeatedly in comments.

Heads I win, tales you lose.

Well, as always, you get to judge for yourselves. Most of my initial exchange with Melissa is near the top of the comment thread. I was going out of my usual way to be reasonable, conciliatory, magnanimous, and so on. In some cases I had to explain the same thing a number of times.

Goose egg. Complete purposeful unreasonableness and later, even an escalation of the Drama at paleo Drama. In fact, unless I’m mistaken, the tagline for her blog was originally something along the lines of ‘some modicum of creating a civil non-anti-intellectual environment’, but as I noted yesterday, now reads:

Dispatches from the paleo cesspool. Why? Too much silence for too long, it’s catharsis, and for every post I put up, I’m more and more motivated to do something else besides sit in the cesspool.

One might hope she puts up a lot of posts then, so she might feel better and get out of the “cesspool” already, because after all, she’s been “silenced” for too long. Yes, she has resorted to using virtually every weasel word and phrase in the feminist handbook: “silenced, repressed, hated, excluded, discriminated, othered…” and the list goes on. All words basically designed to create the illusion that she’s at the point of some archetypical man’s gun, when she’s not. If she was silent, that was her choice. It’s. That. Simple. …Done.

[For an update, please see: Lemons to Lemonade Documentary – Ed]

What she really means is that with speaking up, there is accountability. She didn’t want to face it so it’s on you, those who would have held her accountable. Essentially, she just wants to be able to get away with shit and you might not have let her, so its your bad. And now that’s she’s freeeee of her self imposed chains, you better watch out, because you’re getting double barrels now. You just wait and see. It’s cathartic, after all.

In that comment exchange, I asked a direct question to Melissa that didn’t get answered directly.

OK, Melissa, here’s an honest query for you. In my post where I called you out after you called me out, here was your last comment:


“Melissa and I are exchanging emails. I never materially edit a post. That said, here’s the deal. Because it’s my post and if you think I’ve done Melissa wrong, feel free to go after me in comments. On the other hand, please, enough said on the negative side here, don’t pile on if you have an urge. Understand that I hate this. Hell, I’ve hugged Melissa and given her a ride in my car. I hate this. Let it rest. I said what I said, She said what she said.”

Heheh, don’t worry. I’m no delicate flower. I know what people think of me. Heck, I’ve gotten DEATH THREATS from animal rights activists. This stuff said about me on the paleosphere is pretty tame in comparison. So even if I am a bitch, wrong, yadda yadda, at least people aren’t threatening to firebomb my house.

If you are going to fight, do it with some pride at least. I may be tiny materially, but in words, I am a beast. One of the reasons is that I’ve been through a lot in my life, so there isn’t a lot that I’m afraid of.


[For an update, please see: Lemons to Lemonade Documentary – Ed]

Since that time, you’ve commented here on various posts nine times, not counting your comments here, and they were all constructive or participating in various ways.

In addition to that, since that comment on the post in question in April, we have had a total of 20 emails exchanged on the following topics:

– Kruse
– ItsTheWooo
– Lustig
– Masterjohn/Minger

All of those were friendly, constructive exchanges. Now all this, out of the blue.

So what happened? I’d sincerely like to know.

She answered indirectly on her new blog.

…what motivated me to start this was what happened to that AHS volunteer. I felt so sad for her. I felt somewhat responsible, both for being silent about things and for mis-guided defense of certain people. I don’t think everything she said was correct, but she didn’t deserve to be treated that way.

OK, I can understand she may have initially misunderstood my post and intentions (I don’t actually believe that anymore). The problem is, the idea that I called that volunteer a laundry list of names like “poor, fat, old, ugly, etc.” has already been debunked by at least a couple of commenters who aren’t exactly my fans on Evelyn’s blog. For example.

I stopped reading Richard some time ago because if his hopeless vulgarity and lack of compelling content. However, I made an exception to read his post against the criticism of an AHS volunteer. While his post is a typical two dimensional libertarian rant, fully lacking in style or wit, he does not attack this woman ad hominum. And this woman’s complaints about the AHS are themselves fine until she gets to the part about a ‘whiff of racial supremacy’, a claim so outrageous that, absent any compelling evidence to the contrary, are illegitimate and pointlessly destructive.

[For an update, please see: Lemons to Lemonade Documentary – Ed]

He or someone else goes on to explain exactly how I used those words: sarcastically. Exactly. Gold star for what ought to have been obvious on even a casual read. And in fact, I later went on to write this about the volunteer in the same post.

Yea, it’s laughable and that’s why I’m amplifying it to hyperbolic proportions.


I appreciate the volunteer service of that person and I hope her name was included in my wrap up because I endeavored to get the names of everyone who made it all look easy.

McEwen knows all this. She ignores it, persists on, and even escalates. Two things are telling.

  1. She has not addressed this debunking with a single word either in my comments or elsewhere.
  2. She is not demanding I apologize to the “victim” she pretends to champion, for effect. Rather, she demands I apologize to her.

The demand stems from a hasty, angry tweet I put out in the wake of Jack Kruse being kicked off the LC Cruse, owing to a satirical tweet about him planning a ‘major bio-hack involving some virus’. I’d been told previously by a few people I no longer recall that three women were behind the @ShitKruseSays Twitter account. I guess those three women got the same memos, as did others, because everyone seemed to know who I meant when I tweeted “the 3 [just words] will pay.”

[For an update, please see: Lemons to Lemonade Documentary – Ed]

The next day, thinking better of things and frankly, concerned far more about the accusation of their involvement than the [just words] I used to characterize it, I issued and apology.

That was a follow-up Tweet last evening, after I had learned the news and was angry. I’ve had time, space, and the council of a couple of prominent paleo peeps I count as friends, such that I now regret it as a massive, dick-stepping fuck up.

I apologize, particularly to anyone who may have insinuated that I was accusing them. The fact is: I do not know who was behind it, but that Tweet makes it appear as though I do, and that is wrong. I was wrong, plain, simple, and easy. And I always hate to be wrong and stupid…but the only thing to do when you’re either, or both, is to stop being wrong and stupid moving forward. So that’s what I’m doing.

Not good enough. It was deconstructed to the extent I had to do a whole “Sticks & Stones” post.

Here’s a Sub-Definitive Guide on Apologies for you.

  1. If you want to leave open the possibility and opportunity for receiving an apology (and reconciliation), then never demand one. Instead, just state your grievances as objectively and calmly as possible.
  2. If instead, you want to have something to use and to hold against the aggrieving party at will, then demand one you know you’re unlikely to get.

I probably issued a few “I sowwy mommy” apologies on command as a child (and hundreds of unsolicited and preemptive apologies since), I have never, ever issued an apology on demand, and hell and earth will freeze over before I do. Fuck that to death. Two reasons.

  1. I don’t like being told what to do in any context by anyone, for any reason. I left home when I was 18. I know what I’m doing and I’ll take my lumps if I’m wrong. I’ll decide what I’m going to do and I’m not going to “should” you, or demand from you either.
  2. It’s such a lame and transparent domination tactic. People who demand apologies are looking to dominate you. I wasn’t born yesterday.

I have never in my life demanded an apology. Two reasons.

  1. I don’t like to be perceived as a weak pussy, a victim, in cathartic need of someone else’s bended knee and contrition to make me feel better.
  2. I simply never attempt to dominate people by telling them what they should or ought to do. If I don’t like what they did, I simply tell them. Sometimes I use [just words].

I always have two responses when offered an apology.

  1. Don’t worry about it or, depending on context…
  2. Don’t apologize, just don’t do it again, please.

Now here’s a Mini-Sub-Definitive Guide to Achieving Diversity (in Ancestry Ass. and Everywhere).

  1. Get off your lazy asses and energize the people you want to see included. Don’t sit around and bitch & moan that “the white guys” are seeing to their own tribes and comfort zones.
  2. Unless there’s explicit exclusion—which there is not in AHS, except the price of membership and event tickets—but even that’s not insurmountable with fund raisers and such, or outreach)—then #1 is assured…provided…the people who care the most get off their lazy asses.

[For an update, please see: Lemons to Lemonade Documentary – Ed]

Told you it was a mini guide.

I’ll tell you what; and I’ll put this part into a clean post with some elaboration tomorrow or Saturday. I want to help you achieve your values and goals. In fact, I not only accept a greater diversity at AHS, but welcome and celebrate it. It would be cool and fabulous to see more people “on their way,” along with the “already there” (my sense was more of those this year than last and I made note). It would especially be good to see more African and Hispanic involvement, as they seem to have genetic issues with SAD even more profound than for us Euros.

It’s just not my job necessarily, and it’s not the job of those already busting ass for the people already energized. On the other hand, my own blog is open to all, and I have documented success stories across the spectrum.

So here’s what I’m going to do. I’m inviting guests posts for all these diverse niches. I’ll elaborate on it when I do the follow on, “moving forward” post. Stefani Ruper of Paleo for Women will already be doing another guest post sometime in the future, seeing how successful her last was. At AHS12, there was a presentation on paleo in the Hispanic community and I’ll be trying to get in touch with them to offer them a guest post (an introduction would be great).

Suggestions and direction and contacts are welcome. I’m not going to make it easy. I’m only going to do guests posts from people with established blogs or programs in the diverse niches in which they’re interested in promoting.

[For an update, please see: Lemons to Lemonade Documentary – Ed]

In closing, here’s what prompted me yesterday to delete the last post in the continuing drama I’d just put up, then set about to take a new direction, make this definitive and final, and move on to helping people that was the original purpose in the first place. (Click to open the full size for easier reading.)

Screen Shot 2012 08 23 at 3 17 21 PM

When I saw that, I almost immediately clicked here, scrolled all the way down, and just glanced at the images on that first of I don’t know how many pages. I resolved to set this all aside with my final and definitive statement on the whole thing.

It’s true I lose sight of my goal, at times. I’m getting right back to it.

You get to judge for yourself. If you judge that Melissa is going to help more people than I am going forward, then I welcome you to go support her efforts and her new cesspool inspired project.

[For an update, please see: Lemons to Lemonade Documentary – Ed]

Memberships are $10 monthly, $20 quarterly, or $65 annually. The cost of two premium coffees per month. Every membership helps finance the travel to write, photo, and film from interesting places and share the experiences with you.


  1. Richard Nikoley on August 23, 2012 at 17:59

    “first- nobody should be threatened that the police are coming for them”

    First, that’s bullshit tantamount to McEwen cesspool bullshit. I said no such thing. I’m a blogger. Anyone not daft knew that meant ON MY BLOG. If you’re daft, however, got nothing for you. I deal in people who take care not to look fucking stupid.

    I hate people who wear stupid like a badge of honor, though I understand fully what I’m up against because modern culture is a lot about looking as stupid as you can be,

    “second- don’t use private issues- like alluding to break-ups and desirability- to try to hurt people”

    Oh BS #2. No matter what, short of nuclear war, I would never publish person emails who was a (prsumed) friend at the time the emails were exchanged. She sends me one now, yea, she’s on notice that anything and everything could be published. That was not her assumption before. Me putting “Masterjohn/Monger” in a fucking list says absolutely nothing everyone doesn’t already know.

    Hurt peopl?. Have you fucking lost your mind? Seriously? For anyone with exactly 1/4 of a brain, that comment demonstrates that I had a lot of exchange with M. I would never in a million years have done this. I’ve known M for a long time, in person too. I’d have emailed first if I had issues with her.

    And she knows that. She really does know that. Trust me.

    • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 05:48

      I haven’t seen it, so would have to know the context before saying. Context is everything always.

      • v on August 24, 2012 at 06:16

        this is really bizarre- however, i think i know the woman she is referring to, and it really isn’t funny. but i know there must be a misunderstanding because a person like melissa who would be so offended by your treatment of the AHS volunteer would never have the heart to make fun of someone with a metabolic disease.?

      • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 07:53

        That photo is I think available on the Internet and you can put whatever text you want in it? I’ve seen it all over. So while she may be poking fun of the whole thing overall, and perhaps more for women than men, I don’t see it as her making fun of a specific person with a health problem.

      • v on August 24, 2012 at 10:24

        oh, i must have took it the wrong way.

      • v on August 24, 2012 at 10:25

        self-diagnosed metabolic disease? can you decipher that for me?? weird.

      • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 11:14

        Yea, I don’t really know what that means either.

      • v on August 24, 2012 at 18:28

        thx, wooo. i guess mocking sick people is so *cathartic*…

      • gallier2 on August 25, 2012 at 01:28

        Oh woo, so right. Have you seen Kurt Harris’ latest at

        I had to respond. He will tear me a second a..h.le for that for sure.
        It’s incredible how a smart guy like him can fall for Carbsanes bullshit like that.

      • Richard Nikoley on August 25, 2012 at 06:25

        You do make a particularly interesting point by comparing it to sex. “Sex reward.” funny when you begin to think of all the parallels.

      • Joe on August 25, 2012 at 08:43

        “Sex Reward”, lol! A psychotic concept, yet indeed no more so than food reward. 

        No doubt if we were Nietschean manly men like Guyenet & Harris we would have the balls to grit our teeth and grimly spend our lives seeking the opposite of what we want. 

        And men should ignore attraction reward and mate only with women they don’t want, with circumcised (and ideally anesthetized) cocks. NO REWARD PLEASE; WE’RE AMERICAN.

        It’s insane, yet tracks perfectly with the feminist ethic. 

        It’s also a great philosophy for would-be members of the elite. Ignore your bliss, stupid rabble; you must desire according to my instructions. I HAZ DEGREE.

        And It’s hilarious how Harris was anointed a Genius by Melissa and Evelyn. Not for his paleo accomplishments (a compiled CHECKLIST of OTHER PEOPLE’S realizations of what not to eat? OMFG, HOW DID HE DO IT?)

        No, Harris was beatified only when he dumped that elderly meanie Taubes for our beautiful beloved Stephan. “Dr. Stephan Guyenet is the utterly reliable source on nutritional science” sez Harris. What, now Guyenet is Food Pope, and Harris the College of Cardinals? Can you imagine a Richard  Feynman resorting to such bullying logrolling?  “Bill Nye, the Science Guy is the utterly reliable source on the nature of the universe.” Not gonna happen. 

        The real indicator to me of what narcissistic whack job Harris is is his constant attempts to immortalize himself by coining new words. “NADs”, “pa-nu”, “archevore” — it could not be more pathetic.

         The essence of Harris is ME ME ME ME ME NOT YOU, FUCK YOU, ME!

        What a weirdo.  He is a walking, talking case study. 

      • gallier2 on August 25, 2012 at 08:52

        You’re absolutely right with your sex parallel and that’s why I mentioned circumcision in my response. We only had that conversation here last week where it was noted that the puritan ideology of Harvey Kellog fathered both the bland starchy morning cereals and circumcision of the young. The cereals were invented to be anti-hedonic and the weewee-snipping to hinder masturbation.

      • Richard Nikoley on August 25, 2012 at 09:04

        I want to make it clear that I think Kurt has a lot of good insight to offer. Exchanged an email with him a few weeks back as he was coming off a month of not reading anything in all of this because he had house guests.

        I sincerely wish he’d take up putting a post up now and then.

        Stephan has been a friend since day one and we had some cool conversations at AHS. He knows I don’t take everything he says as Teh Wrdz, he’s fine with that. I’m sure he’ll give me more to think about and ponder in the years to come so I can make up my own mind.

        So long as a person knows they get to think through all of this and synthesize on their own, I see no reason to fear any of it.

        Bring it on. Let’s think about it, applaud & criticize, go on to round 2, etc.

      • AmandaT on August 25, 2012 at 09:27

        I bet Stephan is no fun to have sex with……….

      • Jscott on August 25, 2012 at 09:38

        To take just the comment from Harris…

        Seems to me he was talking mindless eating. Hell, mindless anything. There is a vast difference in dialing down the engineering side of food taste and throwing someone a cold potato with a knife–no salt.

        Gimmie. More. Again. Now, is a color shade of addiction. It rarely ends well.

        (The sex reward is interesting in this context too. If you have ever dialed up the intensity in that lil act it sure as hell is hard to go back to doing it like the Pilgrims.)

      • Richard Nikoley on August 25, 2012 at 09:50


        That’s over the top. He doesn’t deserve that.

      • Richard Nikoley on August 25, 2012 at 09:53

        “mindless anything”


      • Paleophil on September 13, 2012 at 17:22

        Stephan Guyenet wrote: “Dr. Attia and Taubes have asked for my support on this project.” (

        Seems Gary Taubes has a much better opinion of Stephan Guyenet than you, Itsthewooo and several others here do. Richard has also been commendably far more reasonable and courteous towards S.G.

      • Paleophil on September 13, 2012 at 17:24

        By “you,” I mean AmandaT where she wrote “I bet Stephan is no fun to have sex with……….”

  2. jonw on August 23, 2012 at 18:42

    Good stuff. Thanks for your work Rich.

  3. Zell on August 23, 2012 at 22:06

    Bravo, sir. Clear, to the point, and lays everything out for folks to make of things what they may. Let it be done with.

    I’ve gone ahead and added the paleodrama site to my browser’s ‘blocked’ sites list, to avoid annoyance-reading. The list is called “FUCKING TIME WASTERS”, and includes HuffPo and most news-churn and gossip sites. If I idly try navigating to one of them out of boredom or masochism, I get a pop-up that says, “Remember how you value your brain cells?”

    Yeah. Yeah, I do.

  4. AmandaT on August 24, 2012 at 00:07

    These whining, spiteful women who over-dramatise everything (inc Evelyn) are doing more harm to other women than anything you have ever said, Richard.

  5. Joe on August 24, 2012 at 01:07


    • Kristin on August 24, 2012 at 08:18

      Truth! I haven’t seen that one before, thanks for posting it!

      I read both Richard’s and Melissa’s blogs because I get value from both. I can see that this current friction is meaningful to Richard and Melissa, but short of changing the content of either of your blogs, it doesn’t mean much to me, a reader who’s never going to meet either of you. You are each better off ignoring the other. Your blogs are so different, and there’s room for both. If this sounds kumbaya-to-infinity, well, that’s kind of my MO, and is perhaps one reason why I rarely meet people who I consider real shitstains.

      I like you both. I ain’t stepping over any lines drawn in the sand. Nyeah.

      • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 08:48

        Totally Cool Kristin. And I’m perfectly willing to stay out of Melissa’s sandbox.

      • Michael on August 29, 2012 at 16:24

        Hi Richard, I have been following this whole “drama thing” since it began. It’s sad Melissa is lowering herself to do this. It adds nothing to furthering the message. She has so much potential for a such a young person. By starting this “drama thing website” she is still tarnishing her Hunt Gather Love site. Now, after some of the tactics she uses I cannot believe her on much anymore. What I mean is how do I know some of the comments posted on her “drama” site are not written by her to make it seem bigger than it is? Didn’t she do something similar in comments here by posting as someone else?
        The Paleo thing seems to be going the way of many lifestyles. Like Karate. When the Master or inventor of that style dies, infighting usually happens. Each party is sure of their direction and it usually splits off into different styles. Even Dr. Deans is aligning herself with elite doctors. I think Methusala was right. You don’t need a Phd to be in this Paleo thing. When it comes down to it, it is really not to hard to grasp or understand. Sorry if typos are in my post, it’s hard to type on my IPhone.

  6. Pauline on August 24, 2012 at 01:35

    This site has always been a place where there is banter, pushing of boundaries, introduction to new ideas, a little bit of something for everyone. Hate and spite – well they crop up from time to time. People project stuff onto each other, etc and then similar stuff gets projected back. We all do it. Its hard to know what people’s motivations are anyway. Its a guessing game. I think like AmandaT more harm is done to women by women banding together to agitate and form a force that is against a perceived threat. Women have learnt to manipulate as a human strategy to gain power. Men do it too to get what they want. But no-one can dominate another into submission without a willingness on the other partner to play that role. Stay true to yourself, be congruent to what feels right for you, and let the rest fall by the way. Women are powerful in their own right, they don’t need a group or a band of agitators to feel that power, you experience it everyday but choosing with your brain and heart what is right for you. I don’t want anyone else representing me thank you very much.

  7. Hugh on August 24, 2012 at 16:45

    “Announcing ‘I’m offended’ is basically telling the world you can’t control your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you.”

    And that’s my opinion on the whole Melissa/AHS volunteer saga.

    • Hugh on August 24, 2012 at 16:53

      I did want to give credit to Melissa for voicing on her new blog that, for weight loss, paleo has its limits. That’s one of the bigger problems I have with paleo in general, the idea that ad libitum paleo eating will take you to the weight loss promised land. It took me awhile to realize that before finally turning to the esteemed master Lyle McDonald, and actually started counting calories, implementing carb refeeds, flex dieting, & so on. Shit works.

      • Marnee on August 24, 2012 at 18:26

        Uh dude there is a difference between loosing weight to become more normal and trying to get visible abs. Tell us what is you standard. McDonald is about getting ripped. Paleo is about improved health. Which one are you talking about?

      • Hugh on August 25, 2012 at 07:22

        My standard is losing weight to lose weight. Do you think there aren’t people out there stalling on Paleo with 50+ more pounds to lose? Because there are. And Lyle has gobs of material for the average person – Guide to Flexible Dieting being the best, but also the Ketogenic Diet, The Rapid Fat Loss Handbook, along with numerous articles on his website targeted precisely at the average person. To say his material is only for people trying to get ripped betrays your lack of familiarity with his work.

        And to be clear, “paleo is about improved health” FOR YOU (maybe). There are tens of thousands of people taking up the paleo flag for one simple reason – to lose weight & look good naked – feel free to judge them for it, but that’s the honest trust. And certain people in the paleo arena are more than happy to play to those desires. But it’s only a partial solution for most people in terms of weight loss, and a lot of people suffer as a result of not understanding its limits.

      • Richard Nikoley on August 25, 2012 at 08:29

        Anthony Colpo’s The Fat Loss Bible is along the sakes lines and he’s very Paleo friendly. The latest version of the book has a whole chapter on paleo and it’s excellent. He just doesn’t go for the low carb approach and advocates quality starches (tubers, casavva and such).

      • rob on August 25, 2012 at 12:50

        The problem I have with pursuing “health” is that

        1) I have limited control over my health; and
        2) I will only know the extent of my control over my health (a little? a lot? none at all?) with hindsight

        If, despite all my efforts, five years down the road I get diagnosed with a particularly virulent form of ass cancer, then with hindsight I will know the answer (very little control), and I will know that I spent years and years pursuing something that was illusory.

        If one the other hand I pursue

        1) looking good naked
        2) running very fast
        3) lifting a large amount of weight over my head

        Then I don’t see how I will ever look back at things and conclude that I was wasting my time all along. I was pursuing something that was real and achievable, even if it turns out that I fall short of achieving it.

      • Richard Nikoley on August 25, 2012 at 13:38

        Quite perceptive, rob.

        I’m not sure whether I actually blogged it but it do know I’ve at least dropped in comments that the thing you can control is reasonable body composition. All you’re doing is human animal reset to what you ought to be anyway. Animals in nature get cancer and everything that can happen to them does happen to them, it’s just rare.

        I’ve since modified how I think about that. Go natural, animal, but do try to get high nutrition from nutrient dense animal foods.

        But body composition is a huge, huge part of it,

      • Tracy on August 28, 2012 at 20:30

        Good point Rob, and I needed to hear that. After 6+ years of paleo eating, I’ve discovered I have thyroid problems. Humbling to realize that working towards a ‘perfect’ diet doesn’t guarantee perfect health (or looking as good as you’d like to nekkid), but there it is.

    • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 18:52

      I was going to put up the hilarious Steve Hughes YouTube about being offended, but it’s been shortsightedly blocked by the BBC. And what can you say about the Brits? They may have started the industrial revolution but I guess they never got the memo about lack of creativity, innovation and imagination. That, or maybe nobody makes and sells DVDs or online subscriptions in GB.

      • Hugh on August 25, 2012 at 07:42

        I found a clip of it, albeit with Portuguese subtitles, and just watched it twice. So good. I don’t think Melissa would think so – she’s put up several quotes on her blog indicating she believes in the idea that language/words cause oppression. “If language hurts my feelings or offends me, then I am being oppressed.”

  8. rob on August 24, 2012 at 02:50

    In the end I think it will turn out that Melissa did you a solid with all this because people will lost interest in “C___ Gate” and everyone will move on, it’s like pulling off a Band Aid all at once instead of little by little.

  9. Big Marty on August 24, 2012 at 04:06

    Having followed this for the last few days here are my 2 cents for what they’re worth:

    For everyone criticizing Richard and Melissa and moaning they can’t stand seeing these sort of arguments – don’t fucking read them then! It’s amazing how they apparently can’t stand it yet keep reading all the posts and writing loads of comments! Don’t be hypocrites. This is entertaining and you know it. Don’t deny your animal nature. Cos thats what we are – social animals. And as such there is something inherently fascinating about watching two dominant, high-status individuals battle for supremacy, whether that be boxers in the ring, presidential candidates on a TV debate, celebrities slagging each other off in the tabloids, or well-known paleo bloggers having it out online. The ordinary “tribes people” want/need to know who is the alpha and who is the beta.

    Example: this time last year, Gary Taubes was one of the most well-respected men in the paleo/low-carb/health world. His book GCBC was seen as the Bible of the movement and cited constantly on blogs, including occasionally at Whole Health Source where Stephan Guyanet was making a name for himself as an up-and-coming blogger. Gary must have seen a potential rival and tried to cut him down to size at AHS11. Did Stephan lie down and accept he was number two? Did he fuck. He got stuck in to Gary and the two of them slugged it out on their blogs.

    Not only was it extremely entertaining to see two heavyweights lock horns (which doesn’t happen enough in the paleo community where sycophantic back-slapping is usually the order of the day), but also extremely enlightening on the science. The result was clear-cut: a comprehensive victory for the kid from Washington. He bested Taubes in every department. In fact he didn’t just beat him, he absolutely battered him. Guyanet’s arguments that carbs per se are not unhealthy have been widely accepted, and he himself is now considered to be “the man” when it comes to credible, scientifically-sound paleo-style blogs, while Taubes has become something of a joke, relegated to the low-carb fringe.

    The present feud between Richard and Melissa looks like it is swinging in Richards favour, with today’s post potentially being a decisive blow I think. And I say this as someone who reads both blogs (and actually prefers HGL as I think it has a lot more original and useful stuff relating to health, though I like reading FTA for the rants and politics stuff). Reading through the blogs and comments, I think Richard is in the right in that he has every right to take the AHS volunteer to task for her unfounded allegations of racism and sexism. I don’t think he is a misogynist by any stretch and if anything his tortured attempts to prove otherwise seem a little cringeworthy. He doesn’t need to do this, the onus is the accuser (Melissa) to prove he is by providing some credible evidence (not bullshit taken out of context) rather than Richard to prove he isn’t.

    Anyway, just my 2 cents!

    • Joe on August 24, 2012 at 04:48

      You are an idiot. There is nothing to Guyenet but the blithering of fanboys like you.

      Some remedial reading for you:

      • mark on August 24, 2012 at 05:13

        +1 Mr Petro is on fire

      • Jack Kruse on August 24, 2012 at 18:44

        total agreement. Peter is white hot these days while the BS fest continues.

      • AmandaT on August 25, 2012 at 09:11

        Yes, I love Peter. He is a rational, real person. He doesn’t have to make up pathetic ‘code words’ and acronyms like ‘Science Krispies’… (Science Krispies == “science that Evelyn doesn’t understand”). He’s got a life, he’s got a real job and a real family and he’s a real person. He hasn’t got hours of time to plonk spite on the interwebs all day.
        What sort of professional scientist is constantly name-calling and making up daft acronyms?? Answer: a person who isn’t a real scientist, is just a wannabe, who has no real life, no real friends, no real job, whose husband obviously doesn’t mind her spending all her time ranting on the internet cos he’s very happy downloading porn. Trouble is, the ‘fame whore’ just loves the attention (kudos to whoever used that term), even if it is negative, and they just get even more self-righteous if they are criticised. I think the best thing to do with an arsehole is to ignore them. Drives them mad.
        And Richard can say cunt all he likes, he still isn’t as offensive as the blogger who thinks she is the High Priestess of Science (who is now claiming that she has as-good-as-a-PhD, which is rather insulting to those people who bothered to actually get one.)

      • Richard Nikoley on August 25, 2012 at 09:41

        “…who thinks she is the High Priestess of Science (who is now claiming that she has as-good-as-a-PhD, which is rather insulting to those people who bothered to actually get one.)”

        Hey, not actually driving 3 hours to attend AHS12 was just as good as being there.

      • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 19:26

      • Big Marty on August 24, 2012 at 06:16

        Here Joe, why don’t you go read Whole Health Source and then come back and tell me there is nothing to Guyenet. Since slapping Taubes down last year the kid has went from strength to strength, doesn’t pull his punches any more and faff about with weasle words like some of these science types. He tells it to you straight AND backs it up with science.

        Judging from his writing it is clear his dick has grown about 6 inches bigger than last year, while Taubes’s has shrivelled down to almost a vagina. He rarely gets a word in these days and even when he does he’s almost completely ignored by the bulk of the paleo community now.

        How the mighty have fallen…

      • gallier2 on August 24, 2012 at 06:43

        Oh, he got an attitude and got arrogant, that’s for sure, but the quality of his “science” disappeared with obtaining his PhD. After that he peddles nothing more than the same conventional wisdom about obesity as all the others in academia, you know, the ones that put us in this mess to begin with. Granted he is a little bit more subtle than his sponsors.

        As for Taubes, he apparently has more important things to do* than quibbeling about ego bruises (and SG reaction to his intervention at AHS11 was nothing more than that) on the Internet.

        * Putting in place an alternative research infrastructure to check other ideas than what the conventional “obesity researchers” do, is imho more important than internet drama.

      • Sean on August 24, 2012 at 07:19

        But, Gallier, Stephan has a real fancy degree and he speaks for the entire community of obesity researchers, aka, TOP MEN!

        However, most importantly, The Good Doctor (as Petro refers to him) finally explained, to us lesser mortals, what real science is, it’s uhm, basically common sense. Now Richard Feynman said pretty much the opposite in his famous quote, “The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool.” But let’s be honest, Feynman was really a dogwasher next to The Good Doctor’s brilliant intellect. I don’t know about you but I have to wear two pairs of sunglasses when I read Stephan’s blog because the insights are so fucking brilliant. And even then I see spots for hours afterwards.

        @fanboy Marty, if you are interested in adding some balance to your perspective try reading the aforementioned Hyperlipid (you might want to start with this one). As I’ve stated many times before in these parts, I’m pretty much an agnostic on CIH and I don’t really care anymore. My biggest problem with Stephan is his pomposity, backpedaling, intellectual dishonesty, and a lack of clarity that I think is the result of his lack of insight or depth of knowledge. Petro’s writing has always struck me as the exact opposite of all that.

        I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt here by treating you as someone who is open-minded and reasonably intelligent, even though that Taubes/dick/vagina metaphor is some of the lamest shit I’ve ever read.

      • Joe on August 24, 2012 at 10:53

        Peter rocks my world. I have never understood why Aaron Blaisdell & Brent Pottenger didn’t move heaven and earth to have him at AHS.

        Actually, since it appears to be the season for ultimata, I hereby make three demands of Aaron Blaisdell & Brent Pottenger for AHS13:

        1) Petro Dobromylskyj must headline AHS13. The Honeymoon Suite must be reserved for him, and the hot tub filled with tallow from pastured steers.

        2) Underwear will be worn on the outside so we can check.

        3) All children under 16 years old are now 16 years old.

        Note: Blaisdell & Pottenger must release a communique acceding to these demands within 24 hours, or I will launch

      • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 11:47

        Exactly the sort of sarcastic pile on I welcome.

        But don’t forget.

        They have also to apologize for not moving infinite universes already to get him there (btw, Petro saved my dog’s life via email a couple of years ago, and I just walked him an hour ago).

        So you need to amend your demands.

        “Apologize for your past utter failings. Then we’ll talk about how you can begin building toward redemption.”

      • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 11:47

        ….do you “feel” it?

      • Aaron Blaisdell on August 24, 2012 at 15:47

        I’ve already learned my lesson many times over: No good deed goes unpunished.

      • Joe on August 24, 2012 at 17:53

        Sorry, Aaron, you did not bend the knee sufficiently. Therefore, goes live forthwith.

        I will use a kicky, ironically post-modern theme showing off to my art school friends that I’m hip to Saul Bass. That will demonstrate why I’m a better web developer than a teenager in Guangdong province doing the same job for 23 cents/hour.

        Tomorrow, I will realize that is completely unreadable. I will return to the default template.

        You have been warned.

      • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 19:21

        Laf. Joe. Laf.

      • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 07:56

        I’m going to have to say that I get value from Taubes, Guyenet, and Petro too. Not sure who’s the most right, that’s why I keep paying attention to all three.

      • Sean on August 24, 2012 at 08:02

        Hey, fuck you, pick a TEAM Richard. Republican or Democrat? Oh wait, wrong TEAMs.

      • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 08:33


        “I’ve been taking a poll to see what people think of this building.”

        “Why, so you’ll know what to think?”

        Dominique to Peter Keatong in The Fountainhead. (close quote)

      • AmandaT on August 25, 2012 at 09:22

        Stephan is totally into the ‘food reward’ thing, but I think this idea is very dangerous. For a start, walk into any motorway services in France and you’ll be faced with the most mouthwatering array of high fat, high sugar, delicious things, and yet the French aren’t fat. The French invented ‘food reward’ and they aren’t fat.
        And anyone who studies obesity should know about restraint theory…. by telling people that they should ‘restrain’ themselves either by eating low calorie or low fat or boring, low reward food, you are telling them that they should deny themselves pleasure and satisfaction… which will lead to binge eating of lovely food as soon as things go wrong eg the cat is sick or the washing machine breaks down.
        Food is one of the joys of life.

      • Richard Nikoley on August 25, 2012 at 09:47

        The interesting thing is Stephan is part French, speaks the language, summered there with the grandparents. I lived there for two years, speak the langue too.

        Been to those Motorway deals as well. It is, however, way, way different. Here, you get an array of basically everything that can be put into a deep fryer or, is basic flour based gravy laden comfort food. Try getting a wonderful plate of smoked salmon, or pâté or any of the others high quality, nutritionally satiation things.

        Quality food satisfies and satiates. I think Stephan understands this. The problem is in the reconciliation and I trust he’s going to be thinking on these issues for a long time.

      • Jscott on August 25, 2012 at 09:53


        My thorn with the whole food reward thing is the process in which the food is played with to make it better.

        Not a great metaphor but perhaps in loosely joined ways the way a certain leaf goes from being chewed on to processed to thrown in the microwave to make crack.

        A chef preparing a meal of whole foods has a different agenda than a mega-corp boxing up fruity loops. Yet, maybe only in scale.

      • gallier2 on August 25, 2012 at 12:23

        That’s what bothers me with him. What you described is the food reward theory like J.Stanton so brillantly explained and I can understand that and agree with. But M.Guyenet has only scorn and belittleling for that.
        Quote from his last blog entry:
        Food reward also came up a few times in the talks. From a scientific perspective, the discussions on food reward ranged from reasonable to bizarre. […] On the head-scratching side, there was J. Stanton’s talk.
        and so on.
        If J.Stanton did one thing, he at least explicited the terminology a thing we still wait for from Stephan, were he mixes all terms up, once it’s the blandness, once it’s the reward value, once it’s the satiety another time it’s not.

      • Richard Nikoley on August 25, 2012 at 12:47

        I tend to lump it all together myself. I even had JS at my vacation home for a day and I don’t know, we sat up shooting the shit until like 2am. Love the guy.

        But I’m no more super interested in precise distinctions than I am FWP as an explanation for obesity.

        And this is where I agree with the exponents of all of that. I lived in France. It’s the most highly rewarding and palatable food on a QUOTIDIAN level than in any of about 30 countries I’ve visited.

        What’s the difference?

        I think we need to look onto the powerfully satiation effects of high quality micro nutrition. I have been doing experimentation in this regard for a while. You would not believe how a plate of raw oysters or a few ounces of beef liver can satiate you for hours, if not a day or two.

      • Jscott on August 25, 2012 at 14:52

        I enjoy moments of awe. Reflecting on the adaptability and resilience of the human body gives me those moments. We have to thrash several systems for quite a while, unless someone in our gene pool did it for us, to create mass malfunction like obesity. Thus why Food Reward does not scratch my itch as the reason for fat run amok.

      • J. Stanton - on August 25, 2012 at 22:37

        “I think we need to look onto the powerfully satiation effects of high quality micro nutrition.”

        I’m way ahead of you, Richard :) The effect of micronutrients on satiety — and reward — was a major component of my AHS presentation, and I look forward to the opportunity to discuss the subject in more detail. (I don’t think it’s productive to start such a discussion until the video of my presentation is available, so that our readers can make their own informed judgments based on the facts I presented.)


      • gallier2 on August 26, 2012 at 01:33

        Agreed, terminology is not that important for the casual observer. But for the scientist working on the subject it’s essential. Not being able to provide a clear definition of the words even after several requests illustrates either a lack of understanding or the will to confuse.

      • Joe on August 26, 2012 at 14:16

        You can never be wrong if they don’t know what you mean.

      • Jack Kruse on August 24, 2012 at 18:44

        Plus one to that. I agree.

      • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 19:24

        Resistance is futile.

      • gallier2 on August 25, 2012 at 01:43

        Oh, you already were assimilated in the hate machine.

      • AmandaT on August 25, 2012 at 09:13

        Don’t worry Woo, I love you. :)

    • Elenor on August 24, 2012 at 08:21

      “Guyanet’s arguments that carbs per se are not unhealthy have been widely accepted…”

      I’m beginning to think we need to ‘split’ paleo/primate/ancestral into two overarching camps: those who are “lucky” enough to come to it when young and still healthy — and those of us who are old with massively ‘deranged metabolisms.’ The whole safe starch thing means nothing (doable? healthy? usable? possible?!) to those of us with ‘deranged metabolisms.’

      Yes, absolutely, young healthy folks may indeed do just fine on starches… but because everyone seems to be talking (or shouting) at two wholly different kinds of people — there’s (probably) never going to be a solution to suit both types. I struggled with the “oh yeah, *safe* starches, go forth and eat up!” message, because there is, seemingly, NO SUCH THING as a “safe” starch for my body! Do I think that means it’s completely wrong? No, probably for the folks Guyanet and his camp are focused on, it’s fine. But since he has (apparently — I had to step FAR away from the “safe starch” idea) made it a blanket recommendation, he is fer shure NOT talking to me! Gary Taubes and his “side” make way more sense for the metabolically deranged — whether or not he he makes sense for the young and fit. Perhaps HE is not talking so much to those young and fit folks who are not dealing with a broken metabolism!

      (And then, the whole “fight” stops making sense!)

      • Joe on August 24, 2012 at 10:27

        When I was Stephan’s age, Fritos were a safe starch.

      • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 11:17

        Classic Fritos corn chips have to be the ultimate food reward palatability gig for me,

        I’d hate not to have them around. One handful every now and then–I never have them in the house–is a true pleasure.

    • Galina L. on August 30, 2012 at 19:39

      “Stephan Guyanet was making a name for himself as an up-and-coming blogger. Gary must have seen a potential rival and tried to cut him down to size at AHS11. Did Stephan lie down and accept he was number two?”

      Probably, most likely Gary see a potential of the rising of another useless BS theory making too much noise without being particular useful.

  10. Pauline on August 24, 2012 at 04:44

    I am across the pond. The feuds I find interesting are those that wrestle with the science on health we learn from all those who enter the debate. The rest I can take or leave it. The itty gritty personal personality destruction I am not interested in we have plenty of media here devoted to that. This site has something for everyone. You enjoy the slogging out matches. That’s fine. Others don’t. That’s ok. It’s not a personality contest between commentators either.

  11. Pauline on August 24, 2012 at 04:52

    But this site is grounded in people being able to express their views. I don’t enjoy boxing but I enjoy martial arts. I watch what I prefer. Doesn’t mean I cannot comment on what I don’t prefer.

  12. alexandra on August 24, 2012 at 05:08

    i view those two as fame whores who struggle to give it away, let alone actually sell it.
    just because a blogger, etc wants to be or thinks she/he deserves to be famous doesn’t mean it will happen…. everyone else controls that. plan b is often infamy…. a bit like a child that will throw a tantrum to get attention… negative attention beats no attention… maybe they are on plan b

    as an aside….are these people employed and, if they are, do their employers know how much time they spend on the internet instead of working.

    this shit works, low carb paleo has given me my life back.. i am over 120 lbs lighter and now in vibrant health at the age of 52.

    • Sean on August 24, 2012 at 08:00

      I’m not a huge fan of Melissa, but I don’t think this stems from some burning jealousy of FTA’s popularity. Obviously, I’m not a mind reader, but I think it’s an uncharitable view, and I want to try and stay objective (in my own mind, at least). Yeah, there’s obviously bitterness there, but I doubt it stems from that.

      Honestly, I think it’s more a lack of maturity (engaging in pettiness), probably combined with having lived a rather sheltered existence. There is the fascist attempt at controlling someone’s speech and thinking she has the prerogative to tell (force) someone how to run their blog, but I think a lot of that comes from the politically correct atmosphere that pervades politics and institutes of higher learning these days. How old is Melissa? Less than 25, something like that? I was immature as hell at that age and I’d done all sorts of diverse weird shit thought ought to rack up some life experience: gone to college, lived in Hollywood, hitchhiked across the country, worked construction (journeyman drywaller), etc.

      • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 08:30

        “I’m not a huge fan of Melissa, but I don’t think this stems from some burning jealousy of FTA’s popularity.”

        I agree. People are welcome to that opinion but it’s not mine. HGL has its own well earned chops, and that was done by Melissa and only Melissa.

      • Rhonda on August 24, 2012 at 10:48

        You’ve touched on a good point there, Sean, about the age thing. I’ve seen her kind of behaviour (the fascistic, politically correct, dig deep and lock one’s self into a particular viewpoint, like feminism, wherein you see everything those glasses) on other blogs; most of those persons have been/are in their 20s, and they are men and women of all races and “class” background, with one thing in common, they’re all college (so-called) -educated. It’s one of the reasons why I haven’t commented on this or the other related post, because these bitches (and I include the men!) ain’t got nothing but time and a whole bunch of new words (what the fuck is “cisgendered”?) and stupid-arsed theories and (I know I said it before, but I think it’s important) time time time to sit at their computers to fight with you over their silly shit. But, the thing is, I’m at an age where I have (if I’m lucky like my grandmother was) just as much time behind me as I do ahead, so I can’t be wasting my precious time on the silliness that persons like Melissa (who has more time ahead of her than behind) bring up in blog comments sections.

      • Adam on August 25, 2012 at 13:04

        I’m one of those 20 something year old college educated people and I agree that it a pretty accurate diagnosis of how it is to be a youth these days. I often feel like youths today have accrued a list of sacred cows… doctrines of how the world works that one cannot and shall not challenge. For awhile I’ve tread around these sacred cows but over the last year have began to engage in their slaughter. Of course, it seems a lot of youth just jump down your throat and call you a bigot if you engage them on any of their sacred doctrines.

        One thing I don’t get is for a group of politically correct youth I always seem to spot contempt amongst them for those who are less fortunate then them. It almost reeks of the attitude early 70s feminists had towards less privileged women (or at least how I’ve read about opinions in that era… I was very much non-existent then). It’s like… if you can’t afford grass fed/eat animals/other college world view then you are not worthy of being in their presence.

        For people who claim to love everyone… liberals sure hate those less fortunate then them. It just makes me feel that it’s all a democratically fueled power grab. Appear progressive.. that’s all that matters.

      • Richard Nikoley on August 25, 2012 at 13:56


        It’s an amazingly perceptive comment for someone of your age and experience.

        “I’m one of those 20 something year old college educated people and I agree that it a pretty accurate diagnosis of how it is to be a youth these days. I often feel like youths today have accrued a list of sacred cows… doctrines of how the world works that one cannot and shall not challenge. For awhile I’ve tread around these sacred cows but over the last year have began to engage in their slaughter. Of course, it seems a lot of youth just jump down your throat and call you a bigot if you engage them on any of their sacred doctrines.”

        I was born in 1961. I missed the 60s in terms of a college student telling everyone to fuck off (I’m late to the party). But, even so, it’s ridiculously easy for me to juxtapose the trend of culture I was only able to perceive at the time with my very thorough view now.

        Today’s college pussies are pussies. It’s that simple.

        I actully remember Kent State. I was 9. I may not agree with their grievances entirely, but it’s a different world now, when the real pussies don’t look anything like hippies.

  13. Bill Strahan on August 24, 2012 at 20:13

    Not tooting my own horn here, but I think I’ll toot my own horn for a moment.

    Back in 2005, I had an employee at one company complain abour our upcoming Christmas Party. Pissed me off. He asked why we weren’t having a Winter Party. My response was something gentle like “Because I don’t give a shit what kind of Winter you have, I want to celebrate Christmas and you’re invited. You can decline the invitation. Feel free.”


    Anyway, it pissed me off so much that I considered sending over the top cards out, but chose to do it with another business I was starting at the time. I was stunned to find the URL is still active, as my partner is now running the company.

    Here’s me with too much time on my hands, and bit pissed at the politically correct bullshit that was spinning up as early as 2005:

    Makes me laugh now. I stayed civil but I think it’s obvious I had a thorn up my ass on this particular issue.

    • Sean on August 25, 2012 at 03:46

      That’s hilarious Bill. I wasn’t expecting you to actually have a separate response for each option, great stuff.

      Finally, Please have a new year of your choosing. Don’t feel pressured by us or anyone else to have a year that is any particular way. Just live your life next year your way. We want ours to be happy, and hope that yours, whatever it is, brings you the satisfaction you want. We apologize in advance for assuming you want to be satisfied to begin with.

    • Jscott on August 25, 2012 at 08:50

      I shared this around. I am often impressed when people turn their angst/agitation into something useful and humor filled.

  14. Txomin on August 24, 2012 at 06:22


  15. Merr on August 24, 2012 at 06:47

    The smear is fairly obvious, Richard. Candidly, I’m getting some good laughs at the extent to which some people will go to in order to feel victimized. The average person can see this simply by reading through your explanations/clarificatioins and then your resulting questions to your accusers.

    I believe the heart of this is the use of the word cunt. Many just aren’t accustomed to your use of language (in print, at least), and have trained themselves to recoil when hearing that word in particular. My wife hates it and I don’t use it because I know it sends her to a bad place, no matter how illogical it may be. In return, she knows not to hide the remote on Sunday afternoons during football season. The cunt thing really ruffled a lot of feathers. Your review of the “poor girl” who published her opions online for the world to see and react to, was the best opportunity to pounce.

    Some people don’t “punch down” (Marks Daily Apple) but we all know you do periodically. Even though you overswing periodically, it’s entertaining. I enjoy both blogs for those reasons. I know exactly what I’m getting at MDA and FTA. Keep up the good work.

    • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 08:03

      Thanks Merr. Good summary and insight.

      • Jack Kruse on August 25, 2012 at 08:40

        Our worst enemies are your greatest teachers because they allow you to examine the emotions of anger and revenge and then to transcend them. —Dali Lama This is what came across my mind Rich.

      • Richard Nikoley on August 25, 2012 at 08:52

        The thing is, I have made every effort short of submission to Melissa’s overt domination tactics because I don’t really want an enemy, and particularly not Melissa. Seems she does.

        But I do like lemonade, as I said in the post, and so am open to considering all criticism, even that couched in smear. Yes, the central message in that quote (thanks for the citation and credit to that teacher) is that it’s far easier, more direct, and faster to pay attention to our critics than our fans for learning and growing.

  16. Rick Lucas on August 24, 2012 at 06:55

    This is an excellent response and wrap-up, Richard. You’ve hit just the right tone with it. Thank you.

  17. Joseph on August 24, 2012 at 07:00

    I think this spat (like many others) comes down to people being different. Some people, for reasons unique to their experience, tend to be very sensitive about words — especially when they are interacting through a medium that doesn’t allow (easily) for more than just words (e.g. the Internet). Others do not. Some people feel better about problems after “talking them out” and others don’t: if they go into a conversation mad and talk about what bugs them, they come out madder (not calmer, more rational, or whatever).

    If you are not detached from conversation, if you are the kind of person who takes words thrown at random on a Twitter feed really seriously (not that that is a “bad” thing: like many things, it happens; the reasons are secondary to the event), then the Internet is not always your friend when it comes to achieving emotional equilibrium (stable friendships, etc.). You see hatred where someone didn’t necessarily mean it and respond defensively (because the hatred hurts: that is your reality). You feel vulnerable, angry, indignant. Feeling your place in the world gravely threatened (whether it is or not), you face the choice between fight or flight, and you decide to fight. From the perspective of your genes, it is always better to react as though the shadow in the bushes (the rants on the Internet) are really tigers (angry apes out to destroy you metaphorically / psychologically) — the punishment for getting it wrong is much less than the reward for getting it right. So you defend yourself. Your conversation is not about any rational argument. You are fighting for your right to exist. You are defending something without which you simply cannot exist (from your perspective, which I am not going to say is illegitimate — that would just make you even madder).

    When someone shooting the breeze tries to reason with someone fighting for his existence, the result is never satisfactory to either party. The guy shooting his mouth off thinks everything will be better if we just explain again where we are coming from (“I’m not a tiger! Of course you have the right to exist! I wasn’t trying to challenge that at all!”): and the guy fighting for his life sees this as a betrayal of the emotional hell he has just put himself through (“I am fighting for my life here, and you want us to sit down together all of a sudden and have tea, like we weren’t just trading death-blows a moment ago?”). Neither position is wrong: both are real to the people going through them, and there sometimes is nothing better than silent detente to defuse them — to the befuddlement of people like my wife, who thinks that it is always better to verbalize what one happens to be feeling: she doesn’t realize that I am not wired the way she is; it doesn’t always help me to express every emotion that runs through my cortex. She opens her mouth and finds sweet release. I open mine and sink deeper into the quicksand that is already suffocating me. Her way out of an emotional jam is conversation; mine is silence. Conversation makes her rational and calm under duress, when it just makes me more destructively emotive (unless we are changing the subject that I have yet to deal with in a productive manner).

    • Elenor on August 24, 2012 at 08:28

      Beautifully put —
      The guy shooting his mouth off thinks everything will be better if we just explain again where we are coming from (“I’m not a tiger! Of course you have the right to exist! I wasn’t trying to challenge that at all!”): and the guy fighting for his life sees this as a betrayal of the emotional hell he has just put himself through (“I am fighting for my life here, and you want us to sit down together all of a sudden and have tea, like we weren’t just trading death-blows a moment ago?”). Neither position is wrong: both are real to the people going through them,

      Very good description of the male-female differences in communication and interpersonal relations…

      • Pauline on August 24, 2012 at 09:47

        I grew up in a family where everything was argued emotionally out there and you slept on it and in the morning everything was fine. I don’t tend to bear grudges so when arguments get heated up I am happy to let us both talk it all out and then its over and its make up time. My partner’s family very rarely showed any disagreement everything was dealt with behind closed and no arguments ever happened in front of children. So we grew up with very differently styles of communicating. If we disagree it can feel like the end of world for him, for me disagreements are part of life, get over it.

      • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 09:58

        Ditto, Pauline. That’s how my side of the family is. Argument is sport. It can get way over the top, especially with alcohol involved, but we always end up having breakfast together in the morning.

        My wife’s side, a bit different.

      • Joseph on August 24, 2012 at 10:43

        Sport provides a good frame for thinking about this. I participate regularly in combat sports (martial arts, especially grappling). For the newcomer, the experience of free rolling with another athlete can sometimes be very traumatic: they get stuck in side control (or mount) and feel like they are in danger of being suffocated or broken. They panic. They start hyperventilating and thrashing around like fish out of water. We have all been in this situation, and it was never exactly pleasant. But old-timers are used to it: they can chat you up or at least rest calmly in a bad position while they try to figure out what to do next (to reverse the pin or at least improve the position).

        When the roll is over, some new guys feel traumatized, as though they were just threatened with imminent death (they entered the red zone of “fight or flight” and discovered that they could not do either effectively). Old timers shake hands and trade compliments or insights (or tongue-in-cheek insults) from that particular practice. They are used to losing (and winning) as a matter of course: it’s a game for them; they like getting beaten up, because that is how they learn to grapple better. You cannot make the newbies like getting sat on, and it is pointless to mock them for feeling what comes very naturally (and is a necessary and beneficial part of training: a necessary step for real learning and improvement is finding the red zone and getting used to hanging out there without blowing a gasket). Anyone can always tap out, and everyone (worth anything as a training partner) will respect that. Getting beaten up is a necessary part of learning: the key is not allowing yourself to take more than you are ready to handle. If someone just does not “do it” for you as a partner, then you can avoid that person (“I’m sorry, but I just don’t feel safe training with you: please find another partner this round”). This is not a bad thing for anyone (though if nobody at all wants to work with you, you might want to reconsider your game a bit: for your own good, you need to accommodate someone).

      • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 11:24

        Joseph, that comment is packed with so much interesting things to think about, it’s remarkable.

        Could you, sir, work that into a post for further discussion soon on the blog. It’s a very interesting “animal meets civilization” sort of thing and I would love to delve more in a post of its own.

      • Joseph on August 24, 2012 at 15:24

        I can try, Richard. I guess it could be cleaned up a bit (and probably made somewhat longer and easier to follow).

      • Skyler Tanner on August 28, 2012 at 10:09


        Sarah’s family is like your family while my family was like Bea’s (at least as it is implied). The thing about not being an argumentative family is that, should you give in to that impulse, there are no shades of grey: the throat is torn out, the nukes are dropped, the sand is turned to glass. No remorse, no regret, just heinously obscene arguing to fully rid the person from your existence.

        So yeah, I tend to get quiet, short, and rational during “discussions” with my wife. :D

      • Galina L. on August 31, 2012 at 05:33

        I don’t think it is all about the choice of words (however the mentioning of the combination menopausal, ugly and fat as a characteristic of some group crossed a line more than the use of the word “cunts” toward the group of women who were well equipped to say ten times more in a verbal retaliation during the exchange ),because in that case it was also a recipient. I mean that volunteer. It looked like she was too vulnerable to be attacked, not completely well mentally, it was one of cases when a person would be better to be left alone or at least not criticized in a smashing style. There are Taboos in many human groups to do things like hitting hard a child or to be disrespectful to elders.
        While what Richard has said sounded sarcastic after a careful reading at least for me, for many people and obviously for that person everything what was noticed (probably after first diagonal reading) was the mentioning of her menopausal state and the harsh critic of her appearance. It is like kicking a man in his balls. I am yet to suffer the unavoidable appearance damage associated with age, I guess I came really close to such time because I am 51 but holding well so far. I though for a while that people were supposed to be realistic about what to expect from life, like the only way to never to be old is to die young, but I noticed on several occasions from remarks of others (mostly my grandmas and mother-in-law) how many women continue to regret the loss of their beauty even well into their 70 and 80. Never heard of anyone with a desire to menstruate forever.

      • Richard Nikoley on August 31, 2012 at 07:44


        I had and still have zero idea what that woman looks like. I just used the same words she was implying herself, sarcastically. That’s it.

      • Galina L. on August 31, 2012 at 08:58

        Happens with sensitive issues all the time. Like African-Americans may use so-called “N-word” in every sentence, but doing so by a white person immediately turns that person into outcast.
        BTW, I don’t think it is reasonable to demand diversity everywhere (or even anywhere).

      • Richard Nikoley on August 31, 2012 at 09:08

        “BTW, I don’t think it is reasonable to demand diversity everywhere (or even anywhere).”

        This was my essential point. I actually applaud her desire for more diversity, or, to put it another way, to feel more comfortable and included by feeling she has peers around. Who among us has never felt a bit awkward in a social setting where there’s nobody like us (men: go to a woman’s baby shower sometime)? I shared a house with a black Navy officer in Hayama Japan and when he had all his black friends over, I often felt just a tinge awkward. Perfectly normal. Call it cultural, conditioning, tribal…I don’t really know, but the solution to me, is in the context of no one being excluded, as in AHS, then work for that diversity you desire.

        As me for help, and I’ll help.

  18. Pauline on August 24, 2012 at 07:38

    Very well said. I am communicator and think out loud. Hence sometimes I say lots in little clips to expand what I originally meant. But tones get overlaid on internet and confused You wouldn’t get that in the same room if you could read and hear the body /verbal cues. Men and woman also want different things out of the same conversation. Insightful.

    • Pauline on August 24, 2012 at 10:37

      My comments are for Joseph ‘s post as others have commented and my post has shifted down it now needs a link up.

      • Joseph on August 24, 2012 at 15:25

        Thanks, Pauline!

  19. Pauline on August 24, 2012 at 07:45

    Sometimes he wants peace and she wants comfort and they seek it from each other in different ways. Mea often want to fix problem then peace. Woman wants to express problem that’s comforting – she can sort out her own problems but seeks to feel heard. Out of feeling heard she feels respect.

  20. Bill Strahan on August 24, 2012 at 08:07

    So when you apologize for something, and the person to whom you’re apologizing tells you that you didn’t apologize correctly, are you left feeling you shouldn’t have apologized to begin with?

    I would be.

    “You’ve wronged me.”
    “You know what? I was wrong. I apologize.”
    “Not a good enough apology.”
    “Go F yourself.”

    Yeah, something like that.

    • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 08:41


      I do not regret Emily Deans and in fact, after exchanging cordial hellos with Emily at AHS I went away regretting that I hadn’t looked her in the eye and apologized straight up.

      So, If you’re listening, Emily, I apologize, Emily Deans, for both implicating you and using a word that most certainly has never applied to you in your life.

    • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 08:46

      Or this one, Bill, and I’ve only gotten this from women.

      So sometimes it just plain takes a while to figure out or understand what it is that you did or why she’s upset about it. Usually you’re defensive at first, listen more, back off a bit, begin to understand up to the point where you extend the benefit of any remaining doubt and apologize.

      “too late.”

    • Pauline on August 24, 2012 at 10:51

      The thing is when one person is ready to apologise sometimes the other person isn’t ready or willing. Who gets to decide? You do. Walk away and fight another day.

      • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 11:28

        I don’t see it that way. I see it (in my specific example) as more, you didn’t IMMEDIATELY submit to me. You made me work to explain it to you and I will not accept anything but utter, comlete, unconditional surrender on my say so.

      • Pauline on August 25, 2012 at 02:13

        Well I am generalising. And this problem under discussion has got bigger. It’s like adding gasoline to a fire. Sometimes it’s time out, move away. Some fires are going to take you down with them. Other fires are dampened by getting some distance which helps gain perspective. Sometimes with putting things on pause there are much larger issues at stake when you gauge the bigger picture. So I think you are looking at the larger picture and seeing what is going onfor you now. It’s all good.

  21. foreveryoung on August 24, 2012 at 08:28

    I just have a question. Why do you use the word “cunt” so much? Even if you personally do not find it demeaning or offensive, other people clearly do, so why go throwing the word around so casually? If I didn’t think nigger were offensive, I still would not throw it around in the presence of black people. Regardless of my reputation, self-respect, and respect for others, I’d risk getting my ass kicked. This is simple common courtesy that any gentleman abides by, and not doing so is de classe and puts your credibility on the line. Why not just use another, less offensive word- like d-bag? I’m trying to be cordial with you and I’m really genuinely curious, so I would appreciate some reciprocation. Thank you. -foreveryoung

    • foreveryoung on August 24, 2012 at 08:40

      …As a practical example, a few years back I pissed at my father, and I told him, in reference to his girlfriend taking precedence over family well-being, “…but when if it’s for pussy, then you’ll….” I didn’t even use pussy disrespectfully, actually I used it favorably- meaning it’s a good thing because you’re willing to make sacrifices for it. I even told him “it’s normal to do things for pussy” and was thinking of saying haven’t you ever heard “bros before hoes?” but knew that would send him through the roof. I don’t ever normally even use pussy in everyday vernacular (unless I’m deliberately “talking dirty” to someone in a playful manner), but I certainly will never use it in front of my father again unless I WANT to piss him off. So, may I ask, is it because you’re looking for trouble that you throw the word “cunt” around so recklessly? Just want to get a better understanding of where you’re coming from here.
      Thanks again.

      • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 08:58

        Nope, not looking for trouble.

        I’m a social anesthetist. In terms of silly taboos over “just words” in particular.

    • Jan's Sushi Bar on August 24, 2012 at 08:42

      I understand what you’re saying here, foreveryoung, but the problem with that is where does it all end? Someone will find “douche bag” offensive – someone, somewhere, will find just about anything offensive, and you’ll spend the rest of your life tippie-toeing around trying not to offend the delicate sensibilities of the easily offended – and still failing miserably.

      Can Richard be hot-headed, and abrasive in the process? Yes, he can. But, goddamnit, he not only acknowledges when he KNOWS he’s wrong, he apologizes for it and, from what I can see, makes an honest effort not to do it again. I don’t know what more anyone could want.

    • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 08:54


      Well, I’ve just been around a lot of people internationally who use it. There was a comment thread a while back (before the incident) where either Sean called Nigel a cunt (where has that cunt been, anyway?) or the other way around and before long, everyone was calling everyone a cunt. All in good fun, of course.

      For one thing, I like pissing on silly taboos. Using it in anger is much the same thing. Hey, if you’re going to allow yourself to be offended more by the delivery than the message, that’s on you.

      But since Melissa always says “calling WOMEN cunts, bitches, etc.” I’m only calling guys cunts and bitches for a while.

      • Sean on August 24, 2012 at 10:13

        Yeah that was me calling Nigel a cunt on my blog comments, for being, well, you know, Nigelish. Then he had to keep bringing it up and it quickly became a running joke.

      • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 10:56

        Yea, but you know, guys like Nigel are for whom the Fench invented the phrase, “si il n’existais pas, il faudrait l’inventer.”

      • Sean on August 24, 2012 at 12:30

        He had to answer, we said his name three times.

      • Sean on August 24, 2012 at 12:07

        Okay, I’m pretty proud of myself for being able to figure this out without googling it:
        “if it doesn’t exist, then we need to check the inventory.” I totally nailed it, right?

      • Nigel Kinbrum on August 24, 2012 at 12:18

        Oi! What’s with writing in a foreign language, ya cunt?
        I’m taking a break, for various reasons.

      • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 12:21

        Actually, it really ought to translate pretty literally:

        “if he didn’t existst, we’d have to invent him.”

        That’s Nigel.

      • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 12:27


        Thanks for answering the summons, cunt.

      • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 12:28

        Oh, and as to the break, I sincerely hope all is ok on the home front and if not, that you find your way as soon as possible.

        No need to elaborate.


  22. Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 08:37

    It is to laugh. Melissa published some screed from someone about how ridiculous this post is and you know what the most ridiculous part is? That I intend to help people with their diversity goals.

    How dare I interfer with the smear.

    • foreveryoung on August 24, 2012 at 09:01

      Good poin JSBt. It’s just that there are some words that carry particular power- nigger, cunt, whore, etc and anyone with a modicum of social skills (which Nikoley surely does possess) would be extra careful not to use unless they want something from it- attention, power, or simply laughter, as RN says. These words are powerful precisely because they’re uniquely hostile character, which makes them different from just using fowl language or calling someone an asshole or a d-bag.

      I just wanted to get a better idea, and now I have one. It’s hard to judge someone’s character/intentions when you don’t actually know them in person but only over the internet through what they write, and inflection is nearly impossible to gauge via twitter updates and things of that nature. Perhaps if people knew you (Nikoley) personally (I don’t) they would have gotten that you’re just being a jokester and looking for a laugh, but for people on the outside looking in, it just looks like needless hostility, so that’s all.

      Thank you NK and JSB for responding. Much appreciated.

      • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 09:24

        Re the n-word. I personally hate it. I had two grandparents who used it (not often and it wasn’t used generally, but in reference to blacks who’d done bad things). There is an element to it that says “they did that because they’re black people”, unlike cunt….you are an individual, man or woman.

        Bottom line, there is a world of difference between the n-word and c-word.

        But I also have to say that there is a huge double standard with regard to the former (you know what I mean) and it undercuts them just as Melissa is undercutting legitimate women’s grievance. So, someone who might say, “I’m using the n-word because they do and I’ll stop when they stop” is a legitimate taboo busting deal in my view.

        But it’s not my fight and I just don’t like the word at all.

      • Rhonda on August 24, 2012 at 11:07

        FYI: Blacks (Americans) use “nigga,” amongst each other, which has a totally different meaning than “nigger.” Also, “nigga” , amongst blacks is used mostly with men. Not many black women use the word with other black women or black men; although, there are some black women who do, but they’re usually those that are considered to be “ghetto.”

        But, rap [so-called] music has brought “nigga” to the tongues of men of other races, wherein it doesn’t “belong” to blacks anymore; it’s become universal for how [some] young men address each other. I learned this lesson when one day I was walking through Chinatown and three Chinese guys were talking to each other [in English] and were dropping “nigga” to each other so often that it made me laugh with delight, because a word that I loathe, has had its meaning changed so significantly to a place that I did not recognize.

      • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 11:57

        “I was walking through Chinatown and three Chinese guys were talking to each other [in English] and were dropping “nigga” to each other so often that it made me laugh with delight, because a word that I loathe, has had its meaning changed so significantly to a place that I did not recognize.”

        Reminds me of a district in Tokyo I used to like to go to on Sunday in the late 80’s where the guys don white tee shirts, black leather jackets and gel their black hair to caricature proportions from the 50s, while the women do their equivalent “tribal mimicking.” They danced to 50’s music from primitive cassette player primitive boom boxes to the awful audio distortion at volume one might expect from the technology of the era.

        It was riotously delightful.

      • Hugh on August 24, 2012 at 16:23

        Here’s a music video that features the very scene you are describing:

      • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 18:23

        Yes, Hugh, that’s it. Looks a decade or two more evolved but I never saw it as a copy of James Dean Rebel Without. Cause America, but a stylistic staring point that they could take wherever.

        Glad the essential style is still there.

        One great pleasure I had in my 5 years in Japan was paying for my parents to come over, stay at my place on the peninsula (Hayama), and do some trips to Tokoyo. My mom (a 50s girl) still talks about seeing that live and in person.

        We also flew to Hong Kong for a week. But that’s a whole other story for a different day.

      • Hugh on August 25, 2012 at 07:27

        One of my bucket list items that ranks pretty high is to treat my parents to a trip like that. You’ve got me trying to think of a place or experience that would resonate with them beyond just a standard tourist destination. Hmmm..

  23. Cow on August 24, 2012 at 09:11

    Cowrinthians 9 Chapter 6 Verse 22: And the Lord spaketh unto the masses, spakething, “Remember my children, you are pretty much just as big an asshole as everybody else.” Amen.

  24. foreveryoung on August 24, 2012 at 09:13

    Just read your final response RN. Thanks for clarifying, and I did not know the backstory at all. So it sounds like an inside joke between you and a few friends that the paleo-sphere cluelessly stumbled in upon? You should probably put that somewhere more conspicuous, b/c for those of us who aren’t on the “up-and-up” in the paleosphere, it just makes us cringe (which could also be in part because the word itself, aside from the connotation, is particularly abrasive sounding, even when just being read “aloud” in your head).

    • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 09:38

      No, not really. I don’t want to imply that I didn’t use it at times precisely for the effect intended. That would be disingenuous. What I am saying is that I am totally desensitized to it.

      For example, my wife and I flip each other off all the time–even in front of other people–or say “fuck you” and stuff like that. It is, in actuality, more of a deflecting, detensioning, body language, primal thing that PREVENTS escalation. Then we laugh and move on.

      “fuck you”

      “no, fuck you”

      “ok, so, what’s for dinner?”

      I use it for effect so long as it’s effective and I welcome the day it’s not because nobody is so tightly wound. Or, the correct response to being called a cunt is “well, you’re a smelly cunt,” of something like that.

      We have to get beyond what we’ve lost, that we were taught as children: sticks & stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me.

      Wisdom that billions of children have understood, until being lobotomized by societal PC victim bullshit.

      • foreveryoung on August 24, 2012 at 10:00

        Great example, and I know exactly what you mean! Do it all the time. Thanks for the reality check.

      • foreveryoung on August 24, 2012 at 10:05

        This needs to blow over soon.

      • Tracy on August 28, 2012 at 20:11

        This. I really don’t get why cunt, as a word, has such power with some people. Then again, my best friend and I used to greet each other like that all the time – “What’s up, cunt?” “Not much, whore, what’s up with you?” That sort of thing. It was just meaningless. I’m not sure why ‘cunt’ is considered abusive language – intent is everything, IMO (as someone who has had “I love you” said to me with abusive, harmful intent and subsequent action).

        You mentioned a few comments up that a focus like this is ‘undercutting legitimate women’s grievances’, and I couldn’t agree more. It really pisses me off. If your experience of misogyny (or of abuse and threats, as Evelyn has called some of your language and posts)is being called a cunt by a blogger, you’ve led a pretty good fucking life… be grateful.

        And if Melissa or Evelyn for that matter are reading here… I read, and will continue to read, both of your blogs (and Richard’s), because good info is good info, and I don’t give a flying fuck about this petty infighting, other than it amuses me much like watching Toddlers In Tiaras amuses me – I get to be all judgemental and shit while watching people I don’t know behave like idiots. Fun! (I seriously don’t get out enough.)

  25. CHUCK on August 24, 2012 at 09:52

    i am so bored by this childish dribble. all that seems to get posted here anymore is a public airing of grievances between other bloggers. not arguments for or against science and nutrition. richard, you are an extremely successful blogger but you have lost me. may you win all your future internet tough guy battles. good luck.

  26. VW on August 24, 2012 at 10:56

    Eat real food. Get out and move around a bit. Interact with friends, family, enemies, whatever. Enjoy the process. Live.

  27. rob on August 24, 2012 at 11:59

    On the “safe starch” thing (hate that term), to those of you with damaged metabolisms for whom they are not safe:

    What adverse effect do they create?

    Personally I have trouble with wheat because if I eat a lot of it, I shit blood, something I would consider a seriously adverse effect in that nobody likes doing it, and it’s probably a sign that something is wrong.

    Though I still don’t consider wheat to be unsafe for me, I think consider it something that produces an unpleasant effect.

    What does eating rice or potatoes do to those of you with respect to whom they not “safe”?

    • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 12:14


      Let me give a guess. And this is a criticism of Jimmy Moore and I wish he would stop it.

      He has people all freaked out abut NORMAL blood sugar readings after a meal. Their BG goes over 100 or 110, and they self diagnose as metabolically deranged and “no starch is safe for me” and then they still have “high” readings and so’ it must be the protein I replaced the starch with and the reductionism continues.

      Alright, clap for me. I just criticized Jimmy Moore.

      • Sean on August 24, 2012 at 12:50

        Cue ELMM having multiple orgasms.

      • EatLessMoveMoore on August 24, 2012 at 13:54

        @ Richard & Sean,

        Yeah…and could someone remind me again how an individual who doesn’t even believe in evolution became qualified to moderate a panel at an ancestral health symposium? ‘Cause I must have missed something.

      • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 14:09

        Thats easy.

        He was asked to play a role, or, he volunteered. He did so rather professionally. I was there, like, ah, in person (perish the thought!). Were you? (and I demand an answer; you have 20 mintes, or I will insult you for a Second Time) …someone que video, please.

        Why in the world would you not support a world where people get out of comfort zone or dogma or catechism or whatever, play a role, and see if they like it?

        I’m not expecting Jimmy to change, but as I’ve told you before, he is no one to fear…and you’ve unwittingly just illustrated why.

        When you only have a hammer, ELMM, you’re one day going to find out its usefulness is limited. Seriously? You go around with Moore’s name in your own handle? Do you have an identity. Have you ever acted in self?

      • EatLessMoveMoore on August 24, 2012 at 14:18

        @ Richard,

        My question was facetious, of course. He landed the gig as a way of attending for free. I think that’s fairly obvious. Jimmy has made a career out of avoiding having to find a real career. As for the name, credit must be given to Evelyn for that – she coined the phrase (classic post: She’s the real authority on the Jimmy webpire (someone had to be).

      • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 14:26

        “out of avoiding having to find a real career”

        Why do you say egregiously fallacious shit like that?

      • EatLessMoveMoore on August 24, 2012 at 14:36

        Richard –

        I say it because people who predicate their entire livelihood on achieving weight loss success will do and say ANYTHING to maintain that (sell any dubious product, promote any questionable huckster). In the field of nutrition, that becomes downright dangerous.

      • EatLessMoveMoore on August 24, 2012 at 14:38

        Before Kruse (who he STILL hasn’t issued a statement on) it was Kimkins. I think people forget all that.

      • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 15:02

        Jimmy has a business promoting low carb. Stop. Go read that again. Stop. Now drive through your town and look around and unless you live in the 80s Soviet Union, you’re going to see a thousand different businesses promoting what they have to offer in hopes you’ll like one or more of those offerings more than the money they are asking for it in exchange (yes, I so often feel like a first grade teacher)

        He makes liaisons where he can amongst likely allies like paleo/AHS. Kinds like those business you just drove around to become aware of for the very first time put put advertisements and all manner of other things to advance themselves.

        You know what? I wouldn’t really even care if Jimmy was hurting people. He’s not. He may be limited. He isn’t forcing anyone, no more than the local cafe is going to make you eat their putrid open face beef sandwich with stale white bread, overkooked roast beef and tasteless, overly thick gravy.

      • Joe on August 24, 2012 at 15:39

        What is with you freaks with your fucking demands for denunciations? Get a life!

      • Jack Kruse on August 26, 2012 at 08:04

        So you’re saying one has to believe in a paradigm to be able to participate? I am quite glad my sensibilities are different than yours. “Group think” is how paradigms become dogma’s that is paleo’s biggest risk and they are not even aware of it because they do not see it yet. The diversity of perspective is the best way to solve a complex problem in my view. It makes it easier to allow the idea outside the box enter the realm inside the box. No new group needs this more than paleo. Seeing how poorly attended Kuipers talk was case in point. His twitter feeds post AHS spoke volumes to some of us who are following where the science is also leading instead of sticking to the current meme of what is EvoS in today’s terms.

      • Joe on August 24, 2012 at 13:03

        : golf clap :

        Re Jimmy, to the man with the bg meter, everything looks like a spike.

        I still think he’s the hardest working man in showbiz, though.

      • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 13:07

        I agree Joe. I’m tossing out a bone because Jimmy can take it.

      • EatLessMoveMoore on August 24, 2012 at 13:52

        @ Joe,

        The operative word being ‘showbiz’.

      • Joe on August 24, 2012 at 13:57

        AHHAHAHAAHAH that didn’t take long.

        How’s the job search coming, ELMM?

        By the way, your “Big Marty” persona above was particularly incompetent. No man would use that stupid dick/vagina metaphor.

        And it’s not like you’re fooling anyone. There’s only one person on Earth who has literally all day every day to spend knifing Taubes & Moore, and pushing Carbsane & Guyenet.

        What a freakshow you are.

      • EatLessMoveMoore on August 24, 2012 at 14:10

        Hey Joe – who the hell is ‘Big Marty’? Cause it sure as HELL ain’t me. As for Taubes, I don’t agree with him but I do respect him. At the very least he has a formidable intellect, even if some of his conclusions are flawed. Jimbo’s a salesman with little real understanding of – or use for – science. Fundamentalist Christians rarely do. But you’re sure all buying his Kool-Aid.

      • Joe on August 24, 2012 at 15:00

        You are not as smart as you think you are, ELMM.

        Go get that job.

      • EatLessMoveMoore on August 24, 2012 at 16:53

        Hey Joe.

        By continuing to tell me to ‘get a job’ – when in actual fact I have one that is probably better than anything you can even dream of – you betray yourself as even less intelligent than you believe I am.

        Do you have any other arguments? ‘Cause I’m getting kinda bored.

      • Joe on August 24, 2012 at 17:41

        Yeah, your life is a dream. That’s why you have time to murder Jimmy 24/7.


      • EatLessMoveMoore on August 24, 2012 at 18:51

        Joe –


  28. josef on August 24, 2012 at 13:17

    Richard, your interaction with this lady brings to mind and old saying: “He who goes to sleep with a baby, is likely to wake up with pee all over him”

  29. Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 13:27

    Just booked a guest post with one of the hottest 30-40 something women with 3 adorable daughters ever.

    She’s available, too. Just sayin’, guys. Stay tuned.

    • Joe on August 24, 2012 at 13:43

      As a not particularly hot male, I resent the way you just othered me.

      • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 13:57

        Laf. Hey, give it your best shot.

        Women and men trade in different currencies. Men trade for regular sex. Women trade for devotion. If you have devotional currency, spend it.

      • Joe on August 24, 2012 at 14:00


        I’m devoted to regular sex. Does that count?

      • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 14:19


        You devote to the woman, she’s the ultimate gatekeeper of sex as the penetrated, and to the extent your devotion passes muster, you get to penetrate as much as you like (not that she doesn’t like it too–but that gets into short term and long term goals and the fact that women are more disciplined than men).

      • EatLessMoveMoore on August 24, 2012 at 14:32

        @ Richard –

        See, this is what I don’t get. Your blog is FULL of interesting and prescient observations on the fairer sex – why don’t people like Melissa give you any credit for that? I think she conflates (some of) your readers with you. Most thinking adults are simply beyond tired of humorless feminism.

      • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 14:46

        “why don’t people like Melissa give you any credit for that?”

        I’m not sure it’s anyone other than Melissa not giving me credit. I discount morons, such as the fake superior ass–to hide his wish to have society go his way through the domination of bigger groups over smller groups (democracy)–abject moron I graced with a quote in the post. And I do mean graced because that is the most people will ever read of him in his life. Probaly. My prediction.

        Tired feminism. Some have already tried to shake the young, dumb Melissa into a “been there done that” sense, because they were around in the 60s and 70s and Melissa acts as though burning a bra would be so avant garde.

        I’m going to leave her to her momentary stupidity because at this point it’s is very difficult for me to characterize it otherwise.

      • EatLessMoveMoore on August 24, 2012 at 14:58

        Yeah. In her comments on my ‘Honor and Balls’ piece (which I’m surprised she posted), she stated that she didn’t know who Camille Paglia and Andrea Dworkin were. She has an awful lot of sound and fury for someone so young and naive.

      • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 15:12

        Havent read that from her, but Camille Paglia has forever been my touchstone (since early 90s) for a rational feminism.

        I should have given it a shot at her, since I am a lesbian at heart. :)

      • Sean on August 24, 2012 at 15:33

        See, this is what I don’t get. Your blog is FULL of interesting and prescient observations on the fairer sex – why don’t people like Melissa give you any credit for that? I think she conflates (some of) your readers with you. Most thinking adults are simply beyond tired of humorless feminism.

        Hey ELMM, you can pretty interesting and prescient yourself when you aren’t obsessing over Jimmy. As an atheist, I don’t buy into the argument that atheism is just another religion, but it CAN be a religion for some people. You can see where I’m going with this…

      • rob on August 24, 2012 at 16:24

        I bet she has never even been to a “Take Back The Night” rally.

        When I was young a girlfriend dragged me to one of those, I’ve never been so frightened in my life, it was like they were holding an Andrea Dworkin look-a-like contest and ripping the nearest man limb from limb was going to be the grand prize.

      • Zell on August 24, 2012 at 23:17

        Many of the paleodrama posts are linking back to the other Melissa (Melissa McEw[A]n, of who’s a longtime professional feminist blogger and queen of the “ladysplain”. She’s a good writer with an excellent grasp of rhetoric, regardless of her base philosophy, so linking to her posts makes for good “QED”/just-so comebacks without actual independent thought involved.

        She’s also located in the Chicago area. Possible new bffs in the quest to dismantle teh patriarkees? Who knows. *shrug*

      • Tracy on August 28, 2012 at 20:19

        Ugh, that sucks. I covered a few marches for the campus paper when I was in University… men were invited and welcomed (as long as they were with a woman), and they were really peaceful, and not man-hatey at all. Sorry you had such a crap experience.

  30. Aaron Ashmann (HaloTeK) on August 24, 2012 at 13:33

    Richard, I don’t always agree with what you say, but that doesn’t matter — your blog is still damn interesting. I think people forget that blogs are personal musings more than anything. Some people have too many lofty ethical expectations of what a blog should be.

    I think you realize that you come from a different school of thought when it comes to words. Words to you are just that — something to read and think about, not something you’d let yourself lose sleep over. And even if for some reason you got a little mad about something, doesn’t mean your gonna be mad tomorrow. <—– smart people let things go.

    As you stated that you like argument for argument sake (I love that too). That is just going to piss off a lot of people. Who the hell cares.

    Lastly, your comment about using the n-word was telling because even you know there might be a fine line with a majority of people — even though, in a perfect world I feel you should be able to use whatever language you want (we allow authors to use whatever language they want). If you are an actualized person, nothing someone else should say should ever put u in a tizzy.

    • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 13:41


      What I am is someone who will simply live his one and only life in this world as himself, who he is.

      Everyday I see men and women struggling to live up to the expectations of others and by the standards set by others, demanded of them.

      If I believed this was just some dress rehearsal, I might behave otherwise but I do not believe that for a second and I thankfully realized it early enough that I could set about to be me. It’s just me.

      Part of me is I like to help others when I can. But I want a lot. I don’t only want them to lose weight, I want them to think independently.

      • Judy on August 24, 2012 at 16:58

        This really struck a chord with me, Richard. I have just been “unfriended” by someone I have been friends with (I thought) for about 16 years. Why? Because I dared to speak up for myself with my local homeowners association. This same individual has been directing the conversation at gatherings at her home for years; i.e. if I had something to gripe about in terms of the Board, I should just take it elsewhere and shut up. Don’t worry; be happy. NOT!

      • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 19:03


        This is everywhere.

        I ask you. Have I demanded a single thing from Melissa or anyone involved? No. Have I asked nicely to answer a question? Yes. Was it answered? No. Is Melissa making demands of me? Yes. Is she making demands of others who happen to have any kind of association with me? Yes (and of course, this is her real perceived power; she knew and know how I roll, her goal and Evelyn’s et al, is to dominate and goad OTHER people in taking direct actions upon me that is not within her or those other’s power to take).

        It is very, very valuable to understand domination tactics. I’m an expert, it’s frightening, and that’s why I don’t even “should” people. I use Just Words.

  31. Rob Beyerlein on August 24, 2012 at 14:42

    I’m honored that you tagged my facebook post and it influenced you to change course with regards to this matter. Bitch fests like these distract from the purpose of your blog (as i see it), Melissa may hate you, may want to smear your name, good for her, she’s started her own “mean girls” sect of paleo, congrats on carving out that little niche. People find your blog for different reasons (i found it through Martin Berkhan’s site and combining paleo with IF is what helped me), but everyone who comes here without an agenda can learn something. That is ultimately the point, you use this vehicle as a means to help other people find a better body, a better personal life and to rationally think about why the government is frequently sodomizing them with no lube. Not everyone has to like it, there are other blogs out there to read if you don’t like Richard’s style. You know who has your back.

    • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 15:08

      You’re good, Bob.

      That comment is eveyr bit as good or better than the quote in the post. Yea, I know. You knew you had to outdoo yourself, right?

      • Rob Beyerlein on August 24, 2012 at 21:21

        I thought we were friends…then you had to call me Bob, lol.

        I’m really not trying to blow sunshine up your ass, I promise. Sometimes reality is a good “go fuck yourself” sometimes its a pat on the back that what you do affects people positively. When this thread runs its course, your supporters will find new and creative ways to come to your defense and throw dirt at her. Hers probably do the same, I haven’t read her blog, so i don’t know and don’t much care. The important thing is perspective. There are far too many 12 inch e-peen’s in the fitness community and paleo community. You’d think with all the BS out there in government or the Nazis, oops i mean FDA, that people who are trying to start a movement would not continually throw each other under the bus. Baffles the hell out of me.

      • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 21:27

        Ha. Sorry about that, Rob.

        “12 inch e-peens.” Laf. That goes on the list, though I’m as guilty as anyone.

        The under the bus thing is inevitable, I suppose. Some of us have been at this for a very long time now (2007 for me).

  32. Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 15:22

    Well, at least she’s reading every comment. But just so you know how the smear works, just like I said.


    Why Nikoley throws the word “cunt” around so liberally…

    Richard Nikoley // Aug 24, 2012 at 08:37

    It is to laugh. Melissa published some screed from someone about how ridiculous this post is and you know what the most ridiculous part is? That I intend to help people with their diversity goals.

    How dare I interfer with the smear.

    Editors note: yeah, and how is he going to do that? Is he providing scholarships to AHS next year that would help people attend? Is he sending nutrition books to low-income schools?

    Oh, I see, they get to guest post. Let the poor saps post on his blog, a blog with archives full of hatred. I hope they don’t forget that when they talk out of place, there is no more civility.


    Do you get it?

    • Sean on August 24, 2012 at 16:08

      Hey now wait just a darn second, I got to guest post.

      Does that make me a poor sap?

      Actually Melissa is right. I didn’t have enough money to throw around and attend AHS12. Where was my scholarship Richard, you selfish prick? Did you really think you could just buy me off with a guest post? And come to think of it, some of the comments on that post were full of hatred. WHY DIDN’T YOU PROTECT ME FROM THAT WITH DISQUS?!?!?!?!

      And if you don’t think it matters because I’m a middle-aged white guy, I’ll have you know that my grandmother told me she’s part Cherokee. I’m a person of color! That was dissed! By Angry Dick!

      I am beyond outrage.

      • Jscott on August 24, 2012 at 16:16


        Quit being a petulant Cracker. A Traitor of The Amerika at that!

      • Sean on August 24, 2012 at 16:24

        Hey piss off, cracker, I already told you I’m a person of color (1/96th Cherokee, practically cousins with Cher). Also, I was essentially forced to leave the US by the same sort of people who ran this fascist travesty of excuse for an AHS seminar.

        You will never, ever, ever understand my pain.

      • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 18:34

        Sean, stop.

        You had me at “hateful comments.”

        a) Family,
        b) Sweetheart,
        c) Assistant Principal,
        d) Sergeant,

        I am so very
        a) sorry
        a) damaged
        b) ashamed
        c) confused

        about this whole
        a) boondoggle.
        b) wang doodle.
        c) whatever I did that’s making you so pissy.
        d) “pressing charges” thing.

        I simply could not control the
        a) jet ski.
        b) rocket booster.
        c) Zamboni.
        d) pods at the end of my arms and legs.

        And while it is true that I should not have headed in the direction of your
        a) white, suede loveseat,
        b) Cub Scout troop,
        c) wife,
        d) priceless beer can artwork,

        especially after consuming so much
        a) sangria,
        b) meth,
        c) fresh air,
        d) priceless beer,

        it was all meant in fun!

        The subsequent
        a) carnage
        b) soiling
        c) shame
        d) ongoing investigation

        that I caused is, hopefully,
        a) like, “whatevs.”
        b) covered by your policy ’cause I’m not insured.
        c) beyond my comprehension — and yours.
        d) appreciated.

        I humbly ask your forgiveness, though it is perfectly within your rights to
        a) spank me.
        b) blow up my spot.
        c) claim my firstborn.
        d) gouge out my eyes and feed them to your priceless koi.

        Remember — I am first and foremost your
        a) only child.
        b) BBF 4-eva.
        c) co-signer.
        d) kidney donor.

        I hope that this clears up any hard feelings and
        a) restores my inheritance.
        b) puts us back in bed together.
        c) brings you to your sanctimonious knees!
        d) gets me off.


      • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 18:11

        Oh, incidentally, over 1000 copies of my book have been given away for free under the buy one (4 bucks at the time) give five away free.

  33. Cow on August 24, 2012 at 17:04

    Was pointed out that men and womens have different approach to sex. Should also be acknowledge that they has different approach to argument. Men go big, then go home. Women go verbal, then go viral. Is understandable. Man is physical dominant, so early womens have to adapt and make other way to have power throughout evolution of bickering.

  34. EatLessMoveMoore on August 24, 2012 at 17:16

    At this point I’m fairly certain that Melissa has Other Issues – and this dour Paleo Temperance League crusade is just a consequence of them. I submitted some unsolicited advice via the ‘Ask me anything’ button, suggesting that maybe this is a time when one needs to just get laid and/or drunk and call it a day. I didn’t receive a response.

    • rob on August 25, 2012 at 12:41

      Imo there is a pretty good chance she has been dabbling in witchcraft. Witches have a very strong interest in Paleo.

  35. Joe on August 24, 2012 at 18:55

    That was Awesome.

    • EatLessMoveMoore on August 24, 2012 at 19:00

      Maybe you should follow that advice as well.

  36. Joe on August 24, 2012 at 19:17

    I have no idea what you’re talking about, ELMM. My comment referred to Richard’s form letter.

    Shouldn’t you be praising Evelyn, though? Are you feeling well?

    Your mother and I worry about you.

    • EatLessMoveMoore on August 24, 2012 at 20:12

      Well…you put your comment in the wrong place!

      In other news, Paleo Drama no longer allows anonymous comments. Yeah, if there’s a shark around, it’s jumped it.

      • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 20:30

        Sorry if I do a typo but apparently McEwen is enamored of McEwan and at the top right now is a most silly decromstructive screed that goes round and round, says nothing, pretends to be academic and concludes with what McEwean wanted to say in the first place: cunt promotes a culture of inequality.

        Seriously, I had no idea this litte girl was that naive until all of this.

        Apparently, she reads one person on these issues. Wonder why.

      • EatLessMoveMoore on August 24, 2012 at 20:47

        Ah, she’s a good kid…someday she might be something.

  37. Paul C on August 24, 2012 at 19:42

    Moving on to more productive and constructive endeavors is a good idea. When I think about what where I was three years ago and where I am today it is awe inspiring, and the paleo community got me there.

    Three years ago: Weak 39 year old eating SAD, with daily severe heartburn, HDL of 40, and was on a horrible cycle of constipation and diarrhea, where it was either giving birth to a hobbit or shitting so much I was afraid to travel.

    Today: Stronger than I thought possible, no doctors or meds, eating paleo + dairy. HDL is 65 and rising every year. I know the name of the cow that I get my milk from (not paleo, but my Belgian heritage gives me dairy super-powers). I’m a regular at farmer’s markets. Most importantly I’ve learned to question beliefs of all sorts.

    Keep up the life-changing work. Move on from the nonsense.

    • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 20:24

      “Move on from the nonsense”

      Yes sir. You have the earmed authority to tell me that.

      And good job. Best.

  38. Bill Strahan on August 24, 2012 at 20:27

    And now that I’m thinking more clearly, didn’t the AHS 2011 videos get put on youtube for the most disadvantaged, less privileged, disenfranchised people that have internet access to get to see them for free?

    • Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 20:41

      They are all on Vimeo.

      • Bill Strahan on August 25, 2012 at 00:54

        On the Internet at large, or just the Whiternet? You know, it’s like the Internet but only privileged white males have access to it.

        Any time I need a zero interest loan I jump on the Whiternet and login with my white male credentials and it’s there waiting for me. I still laugh when I think of the rest of the world, by which I mean women and non-caucasian men, who don’t have the access to power and privilege I do. Poor FONONCs.

        Oops, I’ve let them know what we white males call them. Female Or NON-Caucasian…FONONC. Whilte Males have all the power and privilege, and we get it by stealing it all from the FONONCs. Suckers.

  39. Richard Nikoley on August 24, 2012 at 21:36

    Ha. Just went onto my private Facebook and noticed there were two messages in the “other” folder BELOW the DOMINANT message folder. I replied to both, letting them know they need to immediately begin a a campaign to demand apologies personally from Mark Zuckerberg for having been Othered, by Facebook.

  40. Richard Nikoley on August 25, 2012 at 10:24

    I guess Melissa gets to be as stupid as she wants to be.

    In a recent post in her cesspool, it’s concluded that my offer of guests posts from champions of potential diverse niches is an SEO tactic. I laughed out loud. I’m the most lame an pathetic SEO guy in the world. You know why I get shit loads of Google traffic? That’s hard. You start a blog in 2003, plug away at it every day blogging what’s on your mind, try to do it with style more times then not and almost a decade, 3,000 posts and 50,000 comments later, low & behold, Google showers you with traffic ever day.

    Go figure.

    • Joe on August 25, 2012 at 12:08

      Yeah, I saw that. Melissa has it exactly backwards. Guest posting is great seo for the GUEST POSTER, because in exchange for the writing, they get a link from the bigger blog (Richard’s), and that link helps them rank. But guest posting does NOTHING on a ranking basis for the bigger blog. (Or is even a slight negative, as Richard is linking OUT.)

      That’s why Richard’s inbox is overflowing with requests for guest post slots. If Richard were an seo expert, he’d be sucking up to others trying to post on THEIR blogs.

      It’s another example of her pretending to be an expert but making an ass of herself.

      • Richard Nikoley on August 25, 2012 at 12:25

        I get 6-12 per day, average. The only time I ever requested a guest post was here, 2008, after I’d already been making a mark and Mark was really ramping up.

        He later did a Q&A on ,y blog. It was mutual but for sure helped me more than him. Mark is always kind enough to drop me into weekend link love ever now and then and the traffic pales in comparison to anything else….except the Google natural search I already earn, not from short cuts and tricks, but almost 10 years of putting out mostly solid content most days. And I don’t even bother with tags and all that other stuff.

        I’m piss poor at SEO. Just write good content and they will come and if they come, thou shalt be we warded by God Google. There’s SEO.

      • Joe on August 25, 2012 at 12:46

        Yeah, the web is all about first-mover advantage.

        I think that’s ultimately why Melissa hates Jimmy so much. “I’m so cool; how come that hillbilly gets more traffic?” Sweetie, he started while you were in high school. So go fuck yourself.

      • Richard Nikoley on August 25, 2012 at 13:32

        I had thoought of this, but…but, OK, since you brought it up…

        I don’t know how much real life experience she’s actually had and I don’t discount any. That said, I do have a nagging curiosity as to whether she’d even started her period when I began blogging in 2003.

      • Joe on August 25, 2012 at 13:44

        Well, if she hadn’t, she’s making up for it now.

      • EatLessMoveMoore on August 25, 2012 at 14:26

        Being a born-again hillbilly is fine; it’s when that compromises a person’s view of the science that it’s a problem. Jimmy could care less about science; as his nutritional ketosis experiment demonstrates, he’ll eat anything (as long as he can eat a LOT of it) to lose weight. Adopting ‘low carb paleo’ was a marketing strategy.

      • Joe on August 25, 2012 at 14:48


      • EatLessMoveMoore on August 25, 2012 at 14:58

        “At this point, Jimmy is having it both ways. He gets the benefit of credibility for his enterprise provided by having popular interviews with Guyenet, Jaminet, LaLonde, Deans, Kresser, Masterjohn, etc. So giving the illusion that LVLC is the gateway or nexus of good health information.

        Then he promotes his stupid pseudoscientific agenda by doing these data dumps on specific topics like “safe starches” where he goes to his canned list of LC experts and hucksters to fix the outcome while making it look like it is coming from the nexus of open minded health information.

        It’s a scheme and it works.

        The quickest way for ancestral health bloggers and luminaries to stop Jimmmy from coopting paleo and ancestral health and making them mere satellites of his commercial Low carb empire is to boycott his show and stop cooperating with those stupid data dumps.

        Then it will be obvious that Jimmy has an agenda that has NOTHING WHATEVER to do with ancestral health or honest science inquiry and his effort to ruin the good parts of a legitimate ancestral health movement will fail.

        Between Jimmy Moore Jack Kruse the whole paleo thing has already been set back two decades.

        To people entirely new to paleo, it must look like some cross between the Atkins diet and Deepak Chopra.”

        Who said that? Dr. Kurt G. Harris.

      • Joe on August 25, 2012 at 15:08


        Oh, wait, you mean the dude with the checklist he copied from “Good Calories, Bad Calories.” Never mind.

        How is Harris the guardian of the “legitimate ancestral health movement”? Isn’t he the dude who took his ball and went home?

        Or are you saying his monthly comments on carbsane’s blog mark him as a leader?

        ELMM, if you were truly offended by marketing, there is no shortage of marketers more competent than Jimmy. But you don’t go after Sisson, let alone Atkins, Weight Watchers, Jenny Craig, Body For Life, Jillian Michaels, Nutrisystem, Lindora, Slim for Life, Zone, South Beach, Herbalife etc.

        See, you are a loser, so you, Melissa, and Evelyn pick on who you perceive to be the runt of the litter. It’s how jackals, insects and bacteria fight.

        And a lot of women, too.

        Just sayin’

      • EatLessMoveMoore on August 25, 2012 at 15:36

        Joe trying to come off like Richard = epic fail.

        I happen to think Kurt has one of the best minds out there (yes, along with Taubes), and a few people would agree with me.

        Sisson – to use just one of your examples – doesn’t shut down and censor reasonable criticism. Jimmy solicits opinions from his readers and then censors the responses. Substitute ‘low carb’ for ‘Jesus’ and you’ve got Jimmy.

      • Richard Nikoley on August 25, 2012 at 16:13


        I have to kinda agree. C’mom. man.


      • Richard Nikoley on August 25, 2012 at 16:23

        “It’s a scheme and it works.”

        I’m sure I speak for all readers and commenters when I thank you on blended knee for looking out for all of our dumb ignorant assses.

        Thanks for having our backs. Don’t know what we’d do without you.

      • Richard Nikoley on August 25, 2012 at 16:33

        “let alone Atkins, Weight Watchers, Jenny Craig, Body For Life, Jillian Michaels, Nutrisystem, Lindora, Slim for Life, Zone, South Beach, Herbalife etc.”


      • Richard Nikoley on August 25, 2012 at 16:44

        “The quickest way for ancestral health bloggers and luminaries to stop Jimmmy from coopting paleo and ancestral health and making them mere satellites of his commercial Low carb empire is to boycott his show and stop cooperating with those stupid data dumps.”

        Having actually attended both AHS, presented at both (Jimmy did not at either, he pro hosted a pannel at 12, and did not upstage in the slightest), I have to ask?

        Is this some thing where you really, really want to suck Jimmy’s cock in one of those I hate you but love you kinda deals? How about just ask him?

        Obviously, very obviously, you have been hiding your obsessive agenda behind made-for-Richard niceties for quite a while when I was honest from the outset and told you that I don’t support Jimmy’s deal in the main but have no fear of him.

        I meant it.

        And I don’t give a runny shit or wasted fuck why you are so apparently deathly afraid of Jimmy. You deserve this: you’re a fucking pussy. There, now you finally got what you came for a couple of months ago or so. Go tattle to mommy.

      • EatLessMoveMoore on August 25, 2012 at 18:53

        So we shouldn’t actively oppose people who play fast and loose with the science? We should just quietly say we don’t agree and then give them a pass – because they’re “nice guys” and work really, really hard helping people? That’s exactly what got us Jack Kruse. And yeah, I think it IS unfortunate when the best and brightest – like Harris – leave in disgust and these scrubs get to run the show. Without people like Evelyn, LC/paleo would be even more awash in snake oil than it already is.

      • Jscott on August 25, 2012 at 19:04

        Did J.M. claim to be a scientist? What about an amateur (like ev) scientist? He does not play that angle.

        The ability to detect nuance does not seem to be your strong suit ELMM.

        –I am not a listener of the LLC show nor a consistent low carb eater.–

      • EatLessMoveMoore on August 25, 2012 at 19:13

        No, he doesn’t claim to be a scientist. But he interprets the science – badly. And because of his visibility he becomes the face of ‘low carb’ (and paleo as well, if he gets his way. You safe starch people better just forget about it). The result is fewer and fewer people take this stuff seriously. Look at the people who attended the Low Carb Cruise – that’s the future of paleo right there.

      • Jscott on August 25, 2012 at 19:35

        Forget about what? I do not need Jimmy in order to find, purchase, or eat a potato.
        I do not need representation.

      • Jscott on August 25, 2012 at 19:38

        Ray Chronise states on his blog that one reason he eats primarily vegan is he gets to eat massive quantities without the weight gain. Part of maneuvering this life is knowing one’s weaknesses and finding work-arounds.

      • Jscott on August 25, 2012 at 19:39


      • EatLessMoveMoore on August 25, 2012 at 19:56

        Of course you can eat a potato. But just because, after years of tanking his metabolism, HE can’t, he then declares that such starches aren’t ‘safe’. This misrepresents the science. And frankly, as a paleo eater myself, I get personally offended every time he poses as a LC/paleo ‘authority’. It’s really that simple. People who can’t have a meal without a BG meter handy aren’t eating paleo (LC or otherwise), primal, ancestral, or anything other than demonstrating their disordered eating.

      • Jscott on August 25, 2012 at 20:00

        Oh, well we have found your problem then! Quit getting offended.

      • EatLessMoveMoore on August 25, 2012 at 20:33

        Not offended, just fighting for a movement I care about.

      • Jscott on August 25, 2012 at 20:49

        “I get personally offended every time he poses as a LC/paleo ‘authority’. It’s really that simple. ”

        You are doing the same thing you are accusing him of.

      • EatLessMoveMoore on August 25, 2012 at 21:17

        Offended, yeah, but not like ruins-my-day offended. As Matt Stone pointed out a few years ago, Jimmy having to be Jimmy is likely punishment enough. His latest venture will crash and burn at some point, and advertisers will have had enough. That’s the main reason he’s not syndicated after all these years – he’s such a poor example of healthy living/eating.

        And Richard, what’s a ‘wasted fuck’ anyway? Sounds like an oxymoron.

      • Jurgen on August 26, 2012 at 02:55

        A wank.

      • Stipetic on August 27, 2012 at 05:09

        God, that made me laugh! (Joe’s comment)

      • Richard Nikoley on August 28, 2012 at 00:46

        Wooo, I know who you are.

        You want people to love or hate you or, love AND hate you.

        I have some familiarity with the deal.

      • Tracy on August 28, 2012 at 20:43

        ELMM this is the first I’ve come across you, and I am already sick to death of your incessant Moore-OCD. I can’t imagine what it’s like for more frequent readers/commenters. Anyway – I don’t read Jimmy’s blog, but I do listen to his podcast sometimes, and he has great guests with all sorts of opinions and viewpoints, which sometimes differ from Jimmy’s. That is valuable, IMO. I don’t get this active opposition thing – right or wrong, he’s not hurting anyone or forcing them to eat anything or do anything of think anything. What gives?

      • Richard Nikoley on August 29, 2012 at 07:32

        “P.S. Melissa McEwen has written on her tumblr that you think ELMM is a female. No way! The obsessive stalkerish nerd persona exhibited by ELMM is found almost exclusively in low ranking males.”

        Hmmm, that’s interesting. Don’t know how I could have given that impression. I always and still do think he’s a he. Furthermore, while I did rant on him the other day, and his Jimmy Moore stuff does tryly annoy me, I like him and like having him around.

        He’s very fair minded with me and I do truly sense he’s here to help where he can.

      • Jscott on August 26, 2012 at 20:51

        You can get great Link Juice from guest posters.


        If those guest posters rally support.

        Either or. Melissa nor Richard hold SEO tricky tricks. Richard never brings up SEO. Melissa just did. She has no understanding of it apparently. Nor does she understand how to follow deleted comments on facebook groups. (JR’s comment was not deleted).

        I still like the girl. Prolly cause I have a penis.

  41. Marcy on August 25, 2012 at 12:00

    Richard – I would be angry if you called me a cunt out of nowhere or if you called a weak and defenseless person a cunt. Calling other adults you are angry at a curse word = your choice, man.

    Melissa – trying to justify your own anger by assuming that the offense extends to all women = bizarre and embarrassingly immature.

    It really, really bothers me as a woman to have anger over this word invoked on my behalf. That doesn’t mean I hate all women or that I am trying to solicit the approval of men. It means I’m an intelligent adult secure enough in my lot in life that a simple word floating around on its own doesn’t make me wring my hands and round up the pussy posse (another scary word! RUN!). If someone walked in a bar and called me a cunt, I wouldn’t wait for the reaction of my “husband or boyfriend” to reclaim my injured honor. I’d punch him in the fucking face and accept the legal fallout. I sure as shit wouldn’t start a website slambook for another colleague in my field.

    • Richard Nikoley on August 25, 2012 at 12:18

      “If someone walked in a bar and called me a cunt, I wouldn’t wait for the reaction of my “husband or boyfriend” to reclaim my injured honor. I’d punch him in the fucking face and accept the legal fallout.”

      I adore it! Absolutely.

      I get to be delighted everyday by women who show up to demonstrate that they aren’t interested in being anyone’s victim.

      Good on ya, Marcy.

    • Richard Nikoley on August 25, 2012 at 15:03

      Finally I get something to chew on from Wooo. (I mean in my favorite realm–not her general contributions here).

      “I’m just going to quickly point out that your attempting to physically assault a man is purely a luxury afforded to you by knowing you are protected directly the males in your company at the bar (husband, boyfriend) and secondarily by police”

      You missed one, and it could be the most important. We are animals. What might cause her to lash out one time, or run for cover the next? The unspoken. While the man lashes out verbally, she, over millions of years of encoded experience knows she can slap him down. There is no other explanation for this, because it’s a survival sensitivity women possess that men do not (which is why they end up in the ER from fights they could have avoided). I just love watching Animal Channel and a way, way smaller female bear makes a male (even her former mate) turn tale.

      Female power is EVERYWHERE in nature. It’s depressing that birds know their power but human females have so much trouble. The most naturally socially powerful people I have ever known in my life have been women. Begins with my foul mouthed maternal grandmother.

      “If you lived in a third world country…”

      I’ve spent a total of more than two year of my life in a bunch of 3rd world counties (none Muslim and I completely stipulate to you there). I have seen more raw female power there, way more, than ever in the USA or EU. Why? They are integral to survival in a quotidian real way. A wife and mother dies there? You’re fucked, and I mean really fucked and that fucked uppedness only begins after you’ve gotten over the loss of your bed spoon. I have seen innumerable men back off from women in 3rd world countries and its raw and its beautiful and its animal and I envy that on a level.

      “IMO, what really hurts women are these delusional fantasies that they are entirely equal to men, so any woman pointing out we really aren’t equal in every way is just being a coward or something (and things like laws and certain social policies are very needed to prevent immoral abuse or exploitation or other harm to women in general) .”

      Honest word. Though I don’t know whether you mean physically, social, or what. But it doesn’t really matter for a simple reason: men aren’t equal to women either. Get it?

      ” and it does so much more harm to women to go about your life ignorant and taking the hard work of women who fought to create more equality before you for granted.”

      I’m guessing that’s spoken with pride, so, translation: AUTHORITY.

      • Paul on August 26, 2012 at 02:24

        “But it doesn’t really matter for a simple reason: men aren’t equal to women either. Get it?”


      • Joe on August 26, 2012 at 20:55

        Wow, Woo, you are one of the most interesting thinkers around.

        I really like your explication of religion as helping to reimpose a tribal milieu on a post-agricultural society. It makes a ton of sense. And it lines up with lot of stuff (modern obsession with sports, political alignments, even celebrities.)

        The idea of social primates being forced to live in a hive structure is also really interesting.

        BTW, I seem to remember your saying you’d only guest post on FTA over your dead body — but I think you just did. :-)

      • Richard Nikoley on August 26, 2012 at 22:47

        Wooo, I have no complaints about anything you wrote I can possibly think of. Tell me what you think of Greg Swann’s guest post I just put up. I think there are many intersections.

        The post title is Fifty Shades of bleak: Looking for love everywhere it isn’t. Check it out.

      • mark on August 28, 2012 at 05:00

        I just can’t find fault in anything you write about – including nutrition…

      • Judy on August 28, 2012 at 13:52

        Good grief, Woo. This is a wonderful, insightful piece. It makes me see you in a completely different light. I don’t always see eye to eye with you, but this post made me rethink many of my assumptions, and believe me, I’m glad for that outcome.

    • Tracy on August 28, 2012 at 20:46

      ‘If someone walked in a bar and called me a cunt, I wouldn’t wait for the reaction of my “husband or boyfriend” to reclaim my injured honor.’

      I’d shrug and continue drinking.

  42. Marcy on August 25, 2012 at 13:57

    There are a lot of things I wouldn’t do if I lived in a third world country but that doesn’t keep me from doing them here.

    You do touch on something important that I completely agree with you on though. I would never start a fight that would bring harm to a loved one, regardless of if it was a man or a woman. And I also agree that I probably take for granted the women that fought for equality for me. But their hard work and sacrifice doesn’t preclude me from having my own opinion and reactions.

    We don’t all have the same skills, abilities or social standing but you’re goddamn right I think we’re all equal. That goes for everyone.

    • Adam on August 25, 2012 at 19:49

      “We don’t all have the same skills, abilities or social standing but you’re goddamn right I think we’re all equal. That goes for everyone.”

      Exactly. Any attempts to create a system that rewards people regardless of their skills, abilities and what have you will ultimately fail. That’s what the notion that we are equal in terms of our liberties is important… any attempt to use class constructions to push towards some affirmative action based solution is foolish.

      It reminds me of something that was once said by an African American writer on the topic of white guilt (who escapes my mind at this moment). He said that our culture shifted from having a notion of supremacy to a notion of guilt very quickly after the successes of the civil rights movement. There was never a point in history where we felt neutral towards the concept of race and this lack of neutrality undermined all the civil rights movement stood for.

      That’s why it’s important to recognize that we need to feel neutral towards such a concept and also to concepts involving equality between the genders. Let the person determine how you feel towards them… stop with this class constructionist bullshit. We’re all people. Let’s start there.

  43. […] Emily Deans. First, I want to make my apology to Dr. Emily Deans as public as possible. Second, it's cool to see an MD (psychiatrist), practicing clinician, really delve into this suff […]

  44. AJ on August 26, 2012 at 22:26

    Love the majority of the comments here.
    Highly entertaining, but does ELMM ever shut the fuck up?
    Like a fuckin broken record for fucks sake.

  45. Invisible Caveman on August 27, 2012 at 22:10


    I came to “paleo” and better health after discovering your website while googling stuff about no shampoo and soap. 9 months later I’m 70 pounds lighter and feel better than I ever have an as adult. I just want to encourage you to stick to your guns, keep being yourself, et cetera and all that stuff. I know you will.

    I discovered Melissa’s website and also PaleoHacks shortly after finding FTA, and while HGL seems like a good place to park for awhile and get some good info, it was on PH that I learned more about Melissa herself. I won’t mention much, but I will say that I got burned out on PH after a few months because it seemed like the “paleo drama” watering hole quite often this past year, with Melissa frequently being at or near the center of it. I even had her back a few times in some discussions that got a bit heated, only to have her make condescending comments to me out of the blue as well. Needless to say, I am actually glad to see she is no longer a mod over there.

    Anyone who actually takes the time to create a dedicated blog of “paleo drama” isn’t helping anyone. What a shame. I hope she finds a way to let go of all the bitterness, anger or whatever it is that’s eating at her.

    • Richard Nikoley on August 28, 2012 at 11:41


      Amen. Realizing I’ve been in the center and have instigated a lot of the drama, I am quite anxious to go forth reserving my vitriol for those doing the real harm put there the the ADAs, CW, media, big food and pharma, etc.

      This should not be hard and it will certainly save me a lot of time and aggravation.

      Thanks man.

  46. Pauline on August 28, 2012 at 02:48

    Richard, I want to add something as last comment to some of my thoughts on this post. I think we are ‘individually’ wired differently emotionally/chemically according to the patterns we learned early in childhood from our parent’s style of communicating with us and as a whole family dynamic. I don’t see this a sexual difference as a self/soothing and articulation difference. Our brains gets wired by our interaction first with our immediate care-givers and then siblings. We are able to tolerate the stress of confrontation or not, also according to these role-models or lack thereof and how we related to those in our immediate tribe. Some threats are perceived as real and therefore intellectual sport for some may seem more real and a potential attack on integrity than with others for whom this kind of sparring was part of growing up. This threat/defense/attack system is set up early and can be nurtured and balanced as we grow up but I am not sure that we ever really outgrow that initial set up that was played out by that family dynamic, we just learn to manage it and ourselves better. Your thoughts and others would be appreciated.

  47. ChocoTaco369 on August 28, 2012 at 10:13

    This is why I’m growing to despise the “paleo movement.” No one on Earth right now is “paleo.” They never can and never will be. I was originally enamored by this lifestyle over a year and a half ago for one reason: it was simple. Eat real good, enjoy the outdoors more and lift heavier weight less times. Great! I loved it. The food tasted fantastic, ailments I never even knew I had started going away, I had more energy and it was SO SIMPLE! That’s what originally made this so great: SIMPLICITY!

    Over the past year, “paleo” has transformed from a simple notion to some idealistic religious cult. All this drama exists for one reason: solidarity. “Paleo people” feel like they’re different from everyone else, and typically they feel superior to everyone else for having some kind of magical knowledge. Guess what? Thinking you are superior to anyone else for ordering a steak at a restaurant instead of a slice of pizza or not eating the bun with your burger doesn’t make you “paleo” – it makes you a fucking idiot. A person that eats a bun with their burger is no better or worse than someone wrapping it with lettuce, but if you think you’re better for wrapping it in lettuce, you are officially worse.

    This drama is stupid and it is why months ago I stopped calling myself “paleo” or “primal.” I still will avoid grains and legumes sans white rice and occasional peanut butter. I still will avoid PUFA oils and cook my foods in saturated oils or animal fats. I still will continue to not drink soda, Juicy Juice and Gatorade. But not because I’m “paleo.” I’m avoiding those things because I know I’m healthier without them, and frankly, I’ve lost my taste for them. They’re “fake foods” to me. If any of you are truly doing this for HEALTH anymore, I commend you. If you’re going it to fit the “paleo paradigm,” you are a tool.

    I like Richard. I think he’s a good dude and possibly too honest for his own good. I will, however, never understand how a man who thinks a presidential election is so unimportant can get so wrapped up and consumed by meaningless bullshit like this.

    • Richard Nikoley on August 28, 2012 at 11:59

      Good rant there, Choco. Very much worth considering.

      BTW, I advise people to stay away from the politics of election just like I advise they not consume arsenic. It goes way beyond grains and sugar. :)

      Anyways, I hear ya, man.

  48. Rebecca Fox on August 29, 2012 at 19:38

    I’ve said this before, and I’ll say it again. I’m a conservative Christian (well, except for the gay marriage issue…I’m pro-) who schools her children at home and lives a pretty quiet, unobtrusive, traditionally acceptable life. I don’t rock the boat.
    I read your blog.
    It doesn’t bother me that you swear, and rant, and get all excited about your ideas and findings.
    Because…it’s YOUR blog, and I read it.
    If I ever get offended by YOUR blog, I’ll just take YOUR blog off my to-read list.
    You can agree with my core values or disagree with them, agree with my nutritional ideas or disagree with them, either one. It’s YOUR blog.
    I’m sometimes completely stumped why there are people who don’t get that it’s just that easy.
    If they don’t like you or your blog, just don’t read it.
    Otherwise, do.
    Easy peasy.

  49. Indy51 on August 30, 2012 at 23:12

    This whole “drama” remind me of many such episodes I’ve seen over the years on all kinds of internet forums. I also found references to something called “Right Man Syndrome” – though in fact it should be called “Right Person Syndrome” – that speaks to a certain personality type. No matter what the focus is, there always seems to be at least one on each forum and the majority (IMO and also being female) are females, not males. Just read the list of “Passive/Aggressive Behaviours” in the following link:

    Other examples would be taking a cursory look at the CarbSane or Paleo Drama pages.

  50. […] that point, I realized that her very first tagline for her project—that she quickly changed when I mocked it—is still all what it's about and only what it's […]

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